Superman's a hipster...heaven help us all

[JDMSJR]

http://omg.yahoo.com/blogs/crush/superman-gets-a-hipster-makeover/488

Is nothing sacred?

[Mikeavelli]

Eh, looks more Emo than hipster, but maybe I'm just behind the times on my subcultures.

[Haruki-kun]

Looks like they're just going for "darker and edgier". As everyone else is these days. :smallsigh:

[Marnath]

Superman has always been kind of Emo, this just makes him look the part.

[TSGames]

http://omg.yahoo.com/blogs/crush/superman-gets-a-hipster-makeover/488

Is nothing sacred?
Y'know he stands for Truth, Justice, and the American Way All That Stuff. I figure that comics are within right to try to redefine what that means, even if it involves savagely dismantling the reputation of the great Boy Scout Superhero and possibly molesting the childhood memories of entire generations.

[WalkingTarget]

Written by JMS? I can withhold judgment until I read it.

[JonestheSpy]

Oh please. Everyone gets their knickers in a twist - including the writer of the article - and overlooks that this is an updating of Kal-el's origin and youth. It has nothing to do with the regular series.

Wow, young Clark Kent wore a hoodie. Relax already.

[Moff Chumley]

That's hipter, not emo.

*Chumley OUT!*

[Lord_Gareth]

Why is everyone so attached to the image of one of the poster children of cardboard characters?

[Haruki-kun]

Oh please. Everyone gets their knickers in a twist - including the writer of the article - and overlooks that this is an updating of Kal-el's origin and youth. It has nothing to do with the regular series.

Wow, young Clark Kent wore a hoodie. Relax already.

Personally, I'm just pointing out a trend. It doesn't really affect me one way or the other. It's not like it's the first time he's changed over the years.

[Faceist]

Looks more like Alex Mercer from Prototype. Tentacles ahoy!

[doliest]

Why is everyone so attached to the image of one of the poster children of cardboard characters?

Who are you talking about? :smallconfused:

I mean, the only subject in this threat is Supes, so maybe you're in the wrong thread. :smalltongue:

As for the picture, well, let's wait and see, eh?

[Lord_Gareth]

Who are you talking about? :smallconfused:

Superman, my friend, is who I'm talking about, though I'm sad to say a lot of comics suffer from a stunning lack of complexity in their characters. Boy Scouts are almost always the worst case, though. I've only rarely seen a well-written one.

[Jade_Tarem]

Superman, my friend, is who I'm talking about, though I'm sad to say a lot of comics suffer from a stunning lack of complexity in their characters. Boy Scouts are almost always the worst case, though. I've only rarely seen a well-written one.

Superman is an ideal. There are actually a lot of long-winded discussions on why people still like the character, and it pretty much boils down to "because he's unambiguously the Good Guy." It's ok to like a character that doesn't have a substance abuse problem or anger management issues once in a while.

Also, some people take exception to the term Boy Scout being used pejoratively.

[Eldan]

Also, some people take exception to the term Boy Scout being used pejoratively.

Honestly, I was a corporal in the boy scouts for a while (quit before they made me a sergeant) and pretty much the entire group consisted of drunks and bullies, so... no, for me, Superman isn't a boyscout :smalltongue:

[doliest]

Superman, my friend, is who I'm talking about, though I'm sad to say a lot of comics suffer from a stunning lack of complexity in their characters. Boy Scouts are almost always the worst case, though. I've only rarely seen a well-written one.

I never found Superman flat, but that's just me. Perhaps it's the fact that he's a good guy who manages to be a good guy even in modern comics, which is saying alot.

And as long as this outfit change is part of backstory and not a modern change, it's acceptable.

[Jade_Tarem]

Honestly, I was a corporal in the boy scouts for a while (quit before they made me a sergeant) and pretty much the entire group consisted of drunks and bullies, so... no, for me, Superman isn't a boyscout :smalltongue:

Are we talking about the same Boy Scouts? :smallconfused:

[Eldan]

I don't know. From what I understand, they are pretty different by country.

And that's not all the scouts around here. Most of the scout groups I've met anywhere consisted of very decent people and were well run.
It was just that the local village's chapter was led by a bunch of idiots, really, which made all the nice kids quit after about two weeks. I tried, for a while, to gather the nicer kids into my squad, but that didn't really work, since that only resulted in my squad being singled out as "idiot squad" by all the others.

[Jade_Tarem]

Oh. I was referring to BSA (Boy Scouts of America), which would be guys age 11-18 and is a service-based organization. They also don't use real military ranks. I'm sorry to hear about what happened to your group, though.

[Eldan]

It's about the same here, originally... we had two sub-groups of kids, the small ones ages about 6-12, the older ones 12-16 or so, with leader ranks from ages 16-early twenties. Our problem was that our leaders, all in their early twenties and pretty busy with their jobs and so on, would usually come to organization meetings after already having drunk a few after-work beers. Instead of talking about what we would do with the kids next Saturday, they would then sit down, say "Yeah, let's send them to the forest or something, they'd like that", drink a few more beers together and then go home again. Then the lower officer ranks, all ages 16-18 would get the burden of actually having to organize everything. And since of those three out of five didn't take their job seriously at all, it was either me and one other guy doing all the work for 40 or so kids, or no one doing it. Which resulted in the kids being mostly unsupervised.

Anyway, let's stop derailing this with my bitterness.

[Otogi]

Possible relevant link (but not sure). (http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1809153)

That said, he doesn't look to bad. The only thing that looks out of place is that hood.

I'm more surprised nobody's wondering about the full-costume, though. You can shake off a hoodie-jacket in like 2 panels; the costume is going to stay for a long time.

[Obrysii]

Having read a good review of it, he isn't hipster or emo; it's just one panel that he looks like that.

io9's review (http://io9.com/5674079/in-superman-earth-one-clark-kent-is-the-boy-who-fell-to-earth)

It does have some cool panels from what I've seen. I'll probably check it out.

[Kobold-Bard]

Oh please. Everyone gets their knickers in a twist - including the writer of the article - and overlooks that this is an updating of Kal-el's origin and youth. It has nothing to do with the regular series.

Wow, young Clark Kent wore a hoodie. Relax already.

That's what smallville is for, and I saw no hoodies in that.

This is a lie!! :smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

Everybody goes through some self doubt and turmoil during adolescence. Think how much more so for an alien orphan alone on a planet not his own. As long as it shows how he went from sullen teenager to such a stalwart example of good in the world , I don't think I mind this as much as I first thought. On the other hand, if it's going darker and edgier just for the sake of going all Dark Age, then I reject it utterly.

[chiasaur11]

Written by JMS? I can withhold judgment until I read it.

Considering his recent run on Superman shows JMS has no ruttin' idea how to write Big Blue, and that's stone cold fact.

Seriously, the walk across America storyline? It fundamentally breaks with anything and everything that makes Superman a good character. Figure we can safely assume this won't be good either.

Although not for the hipster reason. Why should Superman being old make him hateful? That's just streets behind.

[The Vorpal Tribble]

In this day and age it's assumed that if you have powers they are not a blessing but a burden. All things that make you different is to be deplored. And the only reason you would ever superhero is because you are so different life couldn't get any worse by you beating up bad guys, so you might as well *sob* make a difference before you succumb to the burden of simply living.

When did this change come when being better or stronger or smarter wasn't a good thing? The TV shows Heroes and Not An Ordinary Family both play right into it. Very few of the characters welcomed being awesome, because awesome means 'DIFFERENT! :smalleek:'

I swear, we're living in the perfect era for some. What was the phrase, cutting down the grass that dares to grow higher than the others? Oh, no, in this modern age folk do it to themselves, willingly and without coercion.

On that note, I wish 'MY' grass was emo so it'd cut itself :smallsigh:

[Kobold-Bard]

...

When did this change come when being better or stronger or smarter wasn't a good thing? The TV shows Heroes and Not An Ordinary Family both play right into it. Very few of the characters welcomed being awesome, because awesome means 'DIFFERENT! :smalleek:'

...

This is why everyone loved Hiro in early Heroes. Because he got super powers and loved it, wanted to be a caped crusader and save he world just because he could. Then the writers bullied him so he could be emo too :smallfrown:

[The Vorpal Tribble]

This is why everyone loved Hiro in early Heroes. Because he got super powers and loved it, wanted to be a caped crusader and save he world just because he could. Then the writers bullied him so he could be emo too :smallfrown:
Yeah, I know it. Even then it seemed to have too much of the feel of 'Hey, look, I'm a dorky comic fanatic so I'm already different. I only love my powers because only those already dorky and weird could love them!'

I think the better model would be Human Torch from Fantastic 4 (all I've seen is the film).

A kind of 'I'm on fire, and it's sweeeet!' attitude.

[Kobold-Bard]

Yeah, I know it. Even then it seemed to have too much of the feel of 'Hey, look, I'm a dorky comic fanatic so I'm already different. I only love my powers because only those already dorky and weird could love them!'

I think the better model would be Human Torch from Fantastic 4 (all I've seen is the film).

A kind of 'I'm on fire, and it's sweeeet!' attitude.

He gets emo time too though because he can't control his powers half the time and randomly blows stuff up. It the very early comics the team even made him a special asbestos bedroom so he wouldn't get hurt when it happened :smallbiggrin:

[WalkingTarget]

Considering his recent run on Superman shows JMS has no ruttin' idea how to write Big Blue, and that's stone cold fact.

Seriously, the walk across America storyline? It fundamentally breaks with anything and everything that makes Superman a good character. Figure we can safely assume this won't be good either.

Although not for the hipster reason. Why should Superman being old make him hateful? That's just streets behind.

Ah, sad to hear.

Of his comics stuff, I've honestly only read Supreme Power (which I thought was interesting even if it just kind of fizzled out in the end) and (the IMHO excellent) Midnight Nation. Oh well.

[DrWeird]

Well, how else are they gonna sell issues? Sales have been dropping steadily since 1994.

[Avilan the Grey]

Well, how else are they gonna sell issues? Sales have been dropping steadily since 1994.

They could kill him?

[Admiral Squish]

Just curious, how many times HAS superman died over the years?

[Jayngfet]

Well, how else are they gonna sell issues? Sales have been dropping steadily since 1994.

They could always not but out four or five comics a month for big name hero's and make it so expensive and time consuming for new people to get into the hobby. Or you know, stop designing comics to be read in rapid sucession and sold as one big volume in a string of big volumes you have to buy later dispite the comics coming out at a comparativly slow rate.

It seems they want to do everything involved with changing comics to boost sales that doesn't involve listening to complaints people have with them.

[ThePhantasm]

They could always not but out four or five comics a month for big name hero's and make it so expensive and time consuming for new people to get into the hobby. Or you know, stop designing comics to be read in rapid sucession and sold as one big volume in a string of big volumes you have to buy later dispite the comics coming out at a comparativly slow rate.

It seems they want to do everything involved with changing comics to boost sales that doesn't involve listening to complaints people have with them.

THIS. Its like to read one comic these days you have to buy a million others. I don't want to do that.

[Lord_Gareth]

Y'know, Mr. Tribble, I can see where your complaint is coming from, but my personal issue with a lot of the classical comics is that they don't show what it actually means to be suddenly (or even always) different from everyone else around you. I mean, say you've got telekinesis (on the macro level, so you can't reconstruct molecules or anything). Yes, this is awesome as hell. But how does that start to make you think differently from everyone else? If you can use that kind of power with impunity, what do tools mean to you anymore? How about traffic conditions to a guy that can fly? Physical contact? Personal space? How does your entire paradigm shift around this change?

Some modern comics have done a great job at looking at that kind of thing. Others...not so much. But the 'emo' thing is at least a (completely awful) stab in the right direction.

[Avilan the Grey]

Y'know, Mr. Tribble, I can see where your complaint is coming from, but my personal issue with a lot of the classical comics is that they don't show what it actually means to be suddenly (or even always) different from everyone else around you.

Why should they? Some do, like Spider Man back in the day (and now after the Ultimate Dork Age Of All Times) but seriously... Those are not the stories Superman is about.

[Lord_Gareth]

Why should they? Some do, like Spider Man back in the day (and now after the Ultimate Dork Age Of All Times) but seriously... Those are not the stories Superman is about.

Superman is one of the heroes most different from the human beings around him, and he doesn't actually have a choice about a lot of it. His super-hearing, for example, has been brought up on numerous occasions (such as having to choose between cries for help when going to save others), but what about everything else it forces him to perceive? Every lie, revelation, mundane evil or good, every little thing about human life that can be experiene aurally is laid bare before this man. That'll mess you up, one direction or another, and make no mistake of it. And that's just one difference.

Power doesn't need to make you evil or selfish, but it makes you different by definition, and that's just mundane versions of power like money or charisma. What happens when you can lift objects with your mind? Teleport? If you're literally unkillable? Things are going to change, pyschologically. There's no way to avoid it.

[Kris Strife]

How much effort/energy is expended in using my powers? How much fine control do I have and can I affect myself?

Either way, I'm likely to be a bit of a jerk about it (read golden age Superman :smalltongue:) at least on occasion, (tie someones shoe laces from across the room, pants a public figure during a speech, etc) use them to be lazy (get myself a drink without leaving my chair) or to do multiple mundane tasks at once (mop the floors, do the dishes and fill out my taxes).

[Dr.Epic]

http://omg.yahoo.com/blogs/crush/superman-gets-a-hipster-makeover/488

Is nothing sacred?

Okay, that sounds frightening, but if they have enough character development that he drops it it might work. I mean if Anakin acted mature at some point in the new trilogy then I would like the character. On the plus side, him wearing a sweatshirt with hood up at least acts as a better disguise than just glasses.

[WitchSlayer]

Okay, that sounds frightening, but if they have enough character development that he drops it it might work. I mean if Anakin acted mature at some point in the new trilogy then I would like the character. On the plus side, him wearing a sweatshirt with hood up at least acts as a better disguise than just glasses.

Not just glasses

[Kris Strife]

Not just glasses

He had "Super-hypnosis" magnified through the Kryptonian glass his glasses are made of and he moved back and forth super fast to make his photos blurry.

[WitchSlayer]

He had "Super-hypnosis" magnified through the Kryptonian glass his glasses are made of and he moved back and forth super fast to make his photos blurry.

I was referring to his low profile, his baggy clothes, his stooping, and his hair.

[chiasaur11]

I was referring to his low profile, his baggy clothes, his stooping, and his hair.

And his robot army.

[Jade_Tarem]

And his robot army.

And the incredible obtuseness of everyone around him. They made fun of it in Lois and Clark.

Tempus (Talking to Lois): Look (puts glasses on), I'm Clark Kent. (Takes glasses off) No, I'm Superman! (Puts glasses on) Mild-mannered reporter. (Takes glasses off) Superhero! [...] Well, that was worth the whole trip. To actually meet the most galactically stupid woman who ever lived.

[chiasaur11]

And the incredible obtuseness of everyone around him. They made fun of it in Lois and Clark.

Tempus (Talking to Lois): Look (puts glasses on), I'm Clark Kent. (Takes glasses off) No, I'm Superman! (Puts glasses on) Mild-mannered reporter. (Takes glasses off) Superhero! [...] Well, that was worth the whole trip. To actually meet the most galactically stupid woman who ever lived.

The sad thing?

Lois is the smart one.

She was sure Clark was Superman. He could use a robot army, hire the president to dupe people, work with Batman, super hypnotise people, travel in time, and whatever other trick he wanted.

She was still sure that Clark Kent was Superman, and just needed enough proof to convince, well, anyone else. It's the rest of Metropolis that's dumber than a sack of hammers (especially Jimmy). Lois is just insane.

[TheEmerged]

Well, he can't do a *worse* job on Superman than he's done on Wonder Woman.

I think.

I hope...

[Dr.Epic]

Well, he can't do a *worse* job on Superman than he's done on Wonder Woman.

I think.

I hope...

Well, it can't be worse than what Joel Schumacher did to Batman.

[Jayngfet]

THIS. Its like to read one comic these days you have to buy a million others. I don't want to do that.

Indeed. I liked the idea of the secret invasion. I thought it was a cool concept so I bought three big, expensive hard covers and set to read the whole thing. At least twice per book I'd get a character leave or come back from an adventure I haven't read and didn't get paraphrased or alluded to in any way beyond the most vague methods possible.

I remember Iron Man and War machine spending about 20 pages talking with random characters before rocketing off without explanation. Apparently to figure out what they were doing you needed to buy yet another comic book. As opposed to using nearly a whole monthly issue to advertise it and breaking story flow.

[Marnath]

What I've never understood about superman is why he even needed an alternate identity. I mean, can't he just be superman 24/7? I didn't think he needed to stop for rest or anything since he draws power from the sun.

[The Glyphstone]

What I've never understood about superman is why he even needed an alternate identity. I mean, can't he just be superman 24/7? I didn't think he needed to stop for rest or anything since he draws power from the sun.

To protect the people he hung around with and cared about, mostly.

[Marnath]

To protect the people he hung around with and cared about, mostly.

..He needs to be Clark to do that?:smallconfused:

[Jayngfet]

What I've never understood about superman is why he even needed an alternate identity. I mean, can't he just be superman 24/7? I didn't think he needed to stop for rest or anything since he draws power from the sun.

...Because he was raised as Clark, established friendships before becoming superman, and needs to do other things as well? I mean fighting crime is all well and good but spandex and capes costs money.

Besides, he's a reporter. Sometimes justice requires actual subtelty instead of punching the guy with the gun in the head really hard.

[Kobold-Bard]

...Because he was raised as Clark, established friendships before becoming superman, and needs to do other things as well? I mean fighting crime is all well and good but spandex and capes costs money.

...

That's what rich friends like Batman are for. Moochy moochy :smallamused:

[Dvandemon]

What's wrong with hipsters?

[Cahokia]

Oh, come on. I mean, I'm a hipster, and even I feel this is a bit much.

[Morph Bark]

I like the new look. Superman's reimaginations throughout the years (especially in Red Son) have always been pretty amazing.

The new Wonder Woman they linked though? She looks like a vigilante popstar now, closer to Wonder Girl. A change I don't really like.


EDIT: ... and what qualifies as "hipster" even anymore these days? It's become a term that is being thrown around like candy on Halloween, or fireworks around New Year's Eve.



What I've never understood about superman is why he even needed an alternate identity. I mean, can't he just be superman 24/7? I didn't think he needed to stop for rest or anything since he draws power from the sun.

Most super characters I've seen - if not all of them - who were in their super guise 24/7, weren't heroes. Dr. Doom is one of them.


Okay, that sounds frightening, but if they have enough character development that he drops it it might work. I mean if Anakin acted mature at some point in the new trilogy then I would like the character. On the plus side, him wearing a sweatshirt with hood up at least acts as a better disguise than just glasses.

Exactly.

Now to wonder who's the girl going to be in this one and if she'll notice sooner than all the other Superman side-characters so far. :smallconfused:

[Psyren]

I don't see what all the fuss is about. Hitler's a hipster too (http://hipsterhitler.com/2010/08/ironic-invasion/), and it hasn't hurt his comic any.

[TheThan]

I think the new look might actually work for Clark Kent. If he’s portrayed as a 20 something that’s going to school to become a journalist then I might be able to actually buy it. If they just take him and say “new wardrobe and personality aren’t we creative!” then it will fail.

I like the idea of superman struggling to learn how to control his powers, how does he not peep at the girls in the locker room when he can see right through the wall? How does he stay in shape when he can bench-press the empire state building? These things can make a younger superman interesting without making him all emo and depressing, will they manage to do that? wait and see I guess.

[Avilan the Grey]

I think the new look might actually work for Clark Kent. If he’s portrayed as a 20 something that’s going to school to become a journalist then I might be able to actually buy it. If they just take him and say “new wardrobe and personality aren’t we creative!” then it will fail.

Yeah I agree here, definitely. This getup looks much better than WWs new one, and besides, isn't this pretty exactly the same kind of clothes that Peter Parker used to wear? It's just that Clark is more muscular.

[Calmness]

Reminds me of what they are doing to Dante, of Devil May Cry. It fits less here, though.

[WitchSlayer]

And people are honestly overreacting. Well, not overreacting to the comic as the previews we've seen look pretty decent, but the article is overreacting to the preview they've seen.

Also, the smoldering eyes are because of HEAT VISION:smallbiggrin:

[Morph Bark]

Yeah I agree here, definitely. This getup looks much better than WWs new one, and besides, isn't this pretty exactly the same kind of clothes that Peter Parker used to wear? It's just that Clark is more muscular.

...and now I am sad that they aren't part of the same company.


Reminds me of what they are doing to Dante, of Devil May Cry. It fits less here, though.

Curious, I've seen most people talking about Dante's younger self change as a bad thing. I thought it just looked a bit awkward. I find it more fitting for Supes, though it clashes a little with his adult self's complete and utter Boy Scout image. I mean, how does a dark and brooding alien adopted by humans who finds out he has superpowers he must struggle with first to control and finds out he is actually an alien turn into that?

[Dvandemon]

What I've never understood about superman is why he even needed an alternate identity. I mean, can't he just be superman 24/7? I didn't think he needed to stop for rest or anything since he draws power from the sun.

Because he had a high school life before all the superheroing

[TheEmerged]

Yeah I agree here, definitely. This getup looks much better than WWs new one, and besides, isn't this pretty exactly the same kind of clothes that Peter Parker used to wear? It's just that Clark is more muscular.

I for one am not complaining about WW's outfit.

I'm talking about the writing. Which has been HORRIBLE. He has no grasp of the character and what makes her Wonder Woman instead of Generic Eye Candy Action Heroine #267. If this comic were the only exposure I had to this writer, I'd think he were new to the craft.

[Avilan the Grey]

I for one am not complaining about WW's outfit.

I'm talking about the writing. Which has been HORRIBLE. He has no grasp of the character and what makes her Wonder Woman instead of Generic Eye Candy Action Heroine #267. If this comic were the only exposure I had to this writer, I'd think he were new to the craft.

Actually I find the writing uninteresting, but not BAD. You have to realize that "no grasp of the character" is not a valid argument since she isn't wonder woman! There is absolutely no reason why she would behave anything like in the "normal" continuity since in this one she grew up almost powerless in a GrimDark world and never experienced anything like in the "normal" stories.

[Jayngfet]

Actually I find the writing uninteresting, but not BAD. You have to realize that "no grasp of the character" is not a valid argument since she isn't wonder woman! There is absolutely no reason why she would behave anything like in the "normal" continuity since in this one she grew up almost powerless in a GrimDark world and never experienced anything like in the "normal" stories.

Which of course still makes her nothing like the chracter we paid to read. Just because there's an in universe reason that doesn't stop a story from being terrible. I read superman because I want to see a good guy fight robots and space men with super spead and heat vision. I want to read spiderman to see a street level wise cracking hero fight various biological and cybernetics based villans.

Nobody wants to pick up an issue of spiderman to find him making deals with a magical demon because thats why we have magic based comics in the first place.

[Kris Strife]

Because he had a high school life before all the superheroing

College life too. Clark Kent graduated from Smallville University... Do you think he joined a fraternity?

[Susano-wo]

I think you can go too far either way on the angst issue. I like it when the implications of, say, reading people's minds, or moving so fast you can run on water, or etc. But if its done badly, it can be just as silly as priviledged teen angst.

And an in universe rewrite of Wonder Woman is not an excuse for writing being bad...but it is defense against the writer not knowing how to write the character.

Personally, the idea seems so horrible, that it doesn't matter who is writing the character.

Honestly, every time I pass by a comics rack I flip through things...and it usually makes me want to cry. [kudos to Thor's new costume though...its much less silly. Now if only they could do that while still making it seem norse, and not, say PRince Valiant:smallbiggrin:]

ANd I have no problem with PSider Man making deals with a demon..I mean, one of Spidey's shticks through the years is getting involved in stuff waaaay too big for his britches. The issue With One More Day is rewriting continuity and destroying everything that's happened to a character, just because writer wanted to write about Peter Parker like he used to be.

Which is not to say that ther haven't been some really stupid things taht have happened to Peter, things that weren't really good for the overall story, but that's what happens when you have characters written in perpetuity, with niether an overall story that begins or ends, or any plans to ever shut down the character and give him clsoure, short of cancelling the series.

Also. For God's sake. Let. Aunt May. Die!!! The poor old thing has been forced to make wheatcakes and hate that mean old Spider Man that Mr. Jameson says is such a menace for far too long. :smallfrown:

[Anteros]

A friend of mine had a copy of the new superman a few days ago, and I read it. I have to say that this was all extremely overblown. Wearing a hoody does not make you emo.

Overall I liked it. It had some cheesy moments, but they made Superman seem a lot more like a real person than what I've read in the past. (Note that I haven't followed comics in at least 10 years though.)

[Avilan the Grey]

A friend of mine had a copy of the new superman a few days ago, and I read it. I have to say that this was all extremely overblown. Wearing a hoody does not make you emo

I have not read it, but I don't understand all the "wangst!" posts here and other places.

[cdstephens]

I never really liked Superman; too boy scout for me. The idea that a person with that much power being good is implausible as well, and goes against my belief that people are at their core evil.

Let's see how this goes before we cast judgement, shall we?

[Evil DM Mark3]

I never really liked Superman; too boy scout for me. The idea that a person with that much power being good is implausible as well, and goes against my belief that people are at their core evil.

OK, I have never understood people who make this argument. He was raised in about the most goody-goody background that exists! To argue he should be evil ignores everything we know about childhood indoctrination. And even if your argument holds weight and all humans are evil, Superman is not human.

[cdstephens]

OK, I have never understood people who make this argument. He was raised in about the most goody-goody background that exists! To argue he should be evil ignores everything we know about childhood indoctrination. And even if your argument holds weight and all humans are evil, Superman is not human.

I don't think that having different DNA or being an alien inherently affects your moral basis in life, whether your good or evil, etc. Sure it will have some effect, but isn't it mostly environmental factors that affect this sort of thing? And doesn't it say something about what the writers want to portray if they make his appearance indistinguishable from the rest of humanity?

I'm not saying that he should be evil. I'm arguing that it seems illogical that through all his years of crime fighting and saving the world, that he ALWAYS did the right thing, despite his immense power to basically do what he wants. He doesn't have an evil bone in his body, and that's what makes me dislike him. There doesn't even seem to be any moral struggle concerning him! The question for him isn't "should I do the right thing?", it's "what's the best thing I can do?" I'm sorry if that puts me off, but it does.

I always kinda liked Lex Luthor, on the other hand. Sure, the whole "Kill superman!" thing is kinda crazy, but I admire his mindset that it's not fair that some person was given this kind of power because of simple chance or luck, while he had to work his way (albeit a bit illegitimately) to the amount of power he possesses. Makes me almost like him more than Batman, since Batman was born into wealth (Lex loses because of physical incapability and for being somewhat insane in his quest to kill Superman).

[Avilan the Grey]

I never really liked Superman; too boy scout for me. The idea that a person with that much power being good is implausible as well, and goes against my belief that people are at their core evil.

Of course your belief might be wrong, which would mean the problem you see never arises.

(I personally believe in The Tao of Peter Parker: Great Power means Great Responsibility. I also believe that most people are bastards, but that good people are not "implausible". Real life has shown us otherwise).

[cdstephens]

Of course your belief might be wrong, which would mean the problem you see never arises.

(I personally believe in The Tao of Peter Parker: Great Power means Great Responsibility. I also believe that most people are bastards, but that good people are not "implausible". Real life has shown us otherwise).

I guess my belief comes from me being pretty religious. People are imperfect, that whole deal. .

[Avilan the Grey]

I guess my belief comes from me being pretty religious. People are imperfect, that whole deal. .

But Imperfect != Evil.

And since we now rapidly steer towards an IRL religious discussion, I will not comment anymore on that.

[cdstephens]

But Imperfect != Evil.

And since we now rapidly steer towards an IRL religious discussion, I will not comment anymore on that.

Good idea. That's another thread.

[Starbuck_II]

I never really liked Superman; too boy scout for me. The idea that a person with that much power being good is implausible as well, and goes against my belief that people are at their core evil.

Let's see how this goes before we cast judgement, shall we?

Superman isn't people. The people you know are human. One of these isn't like the other.

Superman isn't human. So people might be evil, but he isn't because he isn't both.

[AstralFire]

In answer to an earlier question, Superman has only had a death arc once in canon, but the death of Superman is something many of the spinoffs have done. Generally, again, only once per.

[cdstephens]

Superman isn't people. The people you know are human. One of these isn't like the other.

Superman isn't human. So people might be evil, but he isn't because he isn't both.

I think saying he's not evil because he's an alien is a fairly dubious argument. I'm sure if he had Darkseid as a dad he wouldn't have been as nice of a guy.

My point is, Superman is unrelatable to me because no human would do what he did in his situation. What would be more likely to happen is what happened in Superman Red Son, where he essentially becomes a benevolent dictator and puts the world in a tiny bottle. I do realize it's a noncanon story of Superman, but I think the point it brings up for Superman as a character is a fairly significant one. It was also one of the only times I was able to relate to Superman because his actions felt realistic and plausible.

[Kris Strife]

I'd become a superhero if I had the Flying Brick set of superpowers.

[AstralFire]

I think saying he's not evil because he's an alien is a fairly dubious argument. I'm sure if he had Darkseid as a dad he wouldn't have been as nice of a guy.

My point is, Superman is unrelatable to me because no human would do what he did in his situation. What would be more likely to happen is what happened in Superman Red Son, where he essentially becomes a benevolent dictator and puts the world in a tiny bottle. I do realize it's a noncanon story of Superman, but I think the point it brings up for Superman as a character is a fairly significant one. It was also one of the only times I was able to relate to Superman because his actions felt realistic and plausible.

See, I found Red Son Superman to be completely trite and overdone. I have no issue believing in good people, myself. I'm merely skeptical of the average one.

[chiasaur11]

One thing being ignored, for good or ill, is why Supes is shown to be such a boy scout.

It's the Kents.

Most Kryptonians? Jerks, AI grade.

But Superman was brought up by a good, honest, stereotypically decent Kansas farm couple, and it apparently did some good.

And let's be fair, Silver Age Superman did do what most of us would with massive superhuman abilities.

Be cruel to your supposed friends in hilariously elaborate ways, build a secret fort, meet Batman...

Sure, he didn't kill or take over the world, but credit goes to the Kents there, I suppose.

[Susano-wo]

One thing being ignored, for good or ill, is why Supes is shown to be such a boy scout.

It's the Kents.

Most Kryptonians? Jerks, AI grade.

But Superman was brought up by a good, honest, stereotypically decent Kansas farm couple, and it apparently did some good.

And let's be fair, Silver Age Superman did do what most of us would with massive superhuman abilities.

Be cruel to your supposed friends in hilariously elaborate ways, build a secret fort, meet Batman...

Sure, he didn't kill or take over the world, but credit goes to the Kents there, I suppose.

Obligatory: Superdickery (http://superdickery.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=161:showdown-at-gotham-city&catid=28:superdickery&Itemid=54)

also: This (http://superdickery.com/index.php?Itemid=45&id=28&layout=blog&option=com_content&view=category&limitstart=2)

(and improbability of altruism does not mean that no one will be. Now if you mean that he never seems to do any single bad thing, I can't speak to the accuracy, I don't read much superman, but in concept I can agree with you)

[WalkingTarget]

My point is, Superman is unrelatable to me because no human would do what he did in his situation. What would be more likely to happen is what happened in Superman Red Son, where he essentially becomes a benevolent dictator and puts the world in a tiny bottle. I do realize it's a noncanon story of Superman, but I think the point it brings up for Superman as a character is a fairly significant one. It was also one of the only times I was able to relate to Superman because his actions felt realistic and plausible.

Assuming that it finally gets reprinted/continued in the near future due to the legal mumbo-jumbo getting straightened out finally, I'd suggest reading the MarvelMan (published in the US as MiracleMan) comics written by Alan Moore (and later Neil Gaiman). Granted, MM is more of a Captain Marvel clone than Supes, but it's still an interesting take on how that kind of power would affect a person.

[WitchSlayer]

I'd become a superhero if I had the Flying Brick set of superpowers.

I think flying brick is a bit too brief to sum up the Superman style superpowers. I'd say the real flying brick is Cannonball.

[cdstephens]

I'd become a superhero if I had the Flying Brick set of superpowers.

I sincerely doubt it. Even if you do become a superhero, you'd eventually use your superpowers for personal gain, even if it's something as trite as impressing a girl.

Nobody is perfect is my point. Superman flies in the face of that.

[sentaku]

I sincerely doubt it. Even if you do become a superhero, you'd eventually use your superpowers for personal gain, even if it's something as trite as impressing a girl.

Nobody is perfect is my point. Superman flies in the face of that.

Yes because is common to fly under your own power holding your signification other and not you know impressive.

[Susano-wo]

no, I wouldn't use my powers for impressing a girl

Also, there's nothing wrong with using your powers for personal gain.:smallconfused:

The issue would be doing things that are wrong with your powers (stealing, murder, etc) because it brought you personal pleasure, personal gain, or for some other petty reason, I.E. because the mortals annoyed you.

If I use my powers to (using superman as an example, and using a total lack of understanding of how things work, as is par for the course with comics:smallwink:)cook [heatvision] and deliver pizzas within 1 minute of ordering, and make a fortune, there is nothing wrong with that
(you might better put your powers to use in other areas, such as helping people, but hey, you could use that vast wealth to help people :smallwink:)

[WitchSlayer]

no, I wouldn't use my powers for impressing a girl

Also, there's nothing wrong with using your powers for personal gain.:smallconfused:

The issue would be doing things that are wrong with your powers (stealing, murder, etc) because it brought you personal pleasure, personal gain, or for some other petty reason, I.E. because the mortals annoyed you.

If I use my powers to (using superman as an example, and using a total lack of understanding of how things work, as is par for the course with comics:smallwink:)cook [heatvision] and deliver pizzas within 1 minute of ordering, and make a fortune, there is nothing wrong with that
(you might better put your powers to use in other areas, such as helping people, but hey, you could use that vast wealth to help people :smallwink:)

I might not make billions on a pizza delivery business, but I'd totally cook things for myself with heatvision due to laziness.

And Superman totally uses his powers for personal gain AND to impress a girl. Heck, sometimes he and Lois fly out to Paris just for fun.

[cdstephens]

no, I wouldn't use my powers for impressing a girl

Also, there's nothing wrong with using your powers for personal gain.:smallconfused:

The issue would be doing things that are wrong with your powers (stealing, murder, etc) because it brought you personal pleasure, personal gain, or for some other petty reason, I.E. because the mortals annoyed you.

If I use my powers to (using superman as an example, and using a total lack of understanding of how things work, as is par for the course with comics:smallwink:)cook [heatvision] and deliver pizzas within 1 minute of ordering, and make a fortune, there is nothing wrong with that
(you might better put your powers to use in other areas, such as helping people, but hey, you could use that vast wealth to help people :smallwink:)

My point is that you don't see Supes using his powers for personal gain. He doesn't even use them to impress Lois; in the current continuity, Lois falls in love with Clark, not Supes.

[RanWilde]

I sincerely doubt it. Even if you do become a superhero, you'd eventually use your superpowers for personal gain, even if it's something as trite as impressing a girl.

Nobody is perfect is my point. Superman flies in the face of that.

There is nothing wrong with doing something for personal gain, just so long as it is not of detriment to others.

I really hate the new Superman look.

[Maximum Zersk]

I dunno. Superman looks neither hipster nor emo to me. :/

[Kris Strife]

I think flying brick is a bit too brief to sum up the Superman style superpowers. I'd say the real flying brick is Cannonball.

Well, that's the core of Superman's abilities anyways. He's a fancy flying brick. :smallwink:


I sincerely doubt it. Even if you do become a superhero, you'd eventually use your superpowers for personal gain, even if it's something as trite as impressing a girl.

Nobody is perfect is my point. Superman flies in the face of that.

Actually, no. I'd go with the secret identity (with a better costume than taking my glasses off or 'Super-Hypnosis') so that I could have time to myself.

Honestly, the greediest thing I'd do with it is go around flying even when there's no need to, just to enjoy flying. I wouldn't even do exclusive interviews with myself. I'd rather keep my normal identity a nameless no body.

Edit: I'd also use heat vision for cooking, hadn't thought of that. :smallbiggrin:

[chiasaur11]

Honestly, the greediest thing I'd do with it is go around flying even when there's no need to, just to enjoy flying.


18 seconds.

Best since August.

[Kris Strife]

18 seconds.

Best since August.

Huh? :smallconfused: Is this a reference to something?

[Jayngfet]

I always kinda liked Lex Luthor, on the other hand. Sure, the whole "Kill superman!" thing is kinda crazy, but I admire his mindset that it's not fair that some person was given this kind of power because of simple chance or luck, while he had to work his way (albeit a bit illegitimately) to the amount of power he possesses. Makes me almost like him more than Batman, since Batman was born into wealth (Lex loses because of physical incapability and for being somewhat insane in his quest to kill Superman).

You seem to miss the point where his obsession with killing superman is so much a focus of his character it drives most of the insane actions he does. He's literally invented a nuclear space plane before atomic power was more than a concept just to kill superman. He's spent literally billions on shiny multicolored rocks and elaborate death traps. Every bit of his ill gotten wealth seems to go entirely to killing superman.

Meanwhile superman has the power but acts responsably and never uses it for personal gain due to the sheer unfairness, making the argument moot. He has a rather unphysical job, drives to work like a normal guy instead of flying. And only uses his powers to fight for good instead of gain.

He has had to make tough calls, and he has had to decide between selfishness and selflessness. Most of the time he chooses the right choice and leaves his loved ones hanging because if he doesn't people die. Superman doesn't deal on the scale of bank robberies or petty theft onscreen most of the time. There's always some kind of space robot or dragon demon or evil universe trying to annihilate everything and superman has to be there to stop it. When he's late or doesn't show up his comrades and civilians can will and do die horribly.

And it's not like it's without consequence. Enemies have disguised themselves as victims to take advantage of his better nature. He's had to save some horrible people.

Superman makes hard choices and faces dillemas. It's just that because he's a planetary or cosmic scale hero instead of street level like say, spiderman, that his choices tend to be bigger.

[chiasaur11]

Huh? :smallconfused: Is this a reference to something?

Sorta.

Couldn't get the exact quote, but it's a rough reference to Astro City issue 1.

It's about a Superman analogue, the Samaritan. His greatest joy is flying.

He... doesn't get to do it much.

Spends all his time saving people. ALL his time.

Five seconds wasted could cost thousands of lives.

The issue ends with him going to bed for his five hours of sleep, checking his total flight time.

It's measured in seconds, the best time he's gotten in months.

[Kris Strife]

Sorta.

Couldn't get the exact quote, but it's a rough reference to Astro City issue 1.

It's about a Superman analogue, the Samaritan. His greatest joy is flying.

He... doesn't get to do it much.

Spends all his time saving people. ALL his time.

Five seconds wasted could cost thousands of lives.

The issue ends with him going to bed for his five hours of sleep, checking his total flight time.

It's measured in seconds, the best time he's gotten in months.

Well, I got the idea, just not where it was from. :smalltongue:

[Avilan the Grey]

I sincerely doubt it. Even if you do become a superhero, you'd eventually use your superpowers for personal gain, even if it's something as trite as impressing a girl.

Nobody is perfect is my point. Superman flies in the face of that.

This all depends on what you consider "personal gain". Most people saying things like that will point to things like riches, women, etc. I would not do that.
I WOULD use my powers to see the world. And get pizza without the delivery fee, since I could get it home without it getting cold (I own no car, so I have to walk 5 blocks with it in winter).

[Susano-wo]

Well, I got the idea, just not where it was from. :smalltongue:

THat's good. I didn't, and I have read Astro City.../shame

Also, I would totally use powers to gain money so long as the act itself wasn't immoral. (I wouldn't, say rob a bank). Once I was independantly wealthy, I could engage it activities (enacting socal change, saving lives, what have you) without having to work 9-5.

@CD stevens: I was addressing the 'nobody's perfect' point. That implies that using powers for personal gain is morally wrong.:smallsmile:

If you are saying its not realistic, well, I don't think its common, but it is possible. I'd cite Mother Teresa as a good example of one who gave selflessly to help others.

I'd also echo the fact that he does use his powers frivilously when there are not crises presenting themselves

[Pocketa]

Herp.

Issues with article:

1. Doesn't look anything like a member of MCR.
2. They're called "street clothes". He's not a hipster. No skinny jeans, white belt, ironic glasses? Oh, wait, that was old Clark Kent.
3. All ties will look skinny on him. He's Superman. His torso is a ridiculously large canvas. Plus, what, they want a tie to block out the <S>? No thanks.

[VanBuren]

What I've never understood about superman is why he even needed an alternate identity. I mean, can't he just be superman 24/7? I didn't think he needed to stop for rest or anything since he draws power from the sun.

He's sort of the opposite of Batman. Where Bruce Wayne is the "mask" for Batman, Clark Kent is really the core of what Superman is.

[Kris Strife]

He's sort of the opposite of Batman. Where Bruce Wayne is the "mask" for Batman, Clark Kent is really the core of what Superman is.

Plus, I think he still has to eat under normal circumstances. If nothing else, we know he enjoys Lana Lang's root beer floats. :smallbiggrin:

[Starbuck_II]

This all depends on what you consider "personal gain". Most people saying things like that will point to things like riches, women, etc. I would not do that.
I WOULD use my powers to see the world. And get pizza without the delivery fee, since I could get it home without it getting cold (I own no car, so I have to walk 5 blocks with it in winter).

In Lois and Clark: the New Adventures of Superman: Clark does do that. He gets french bakery in one episode for himself.
Another he goes get the pasta from Italy and bring it home before it gets home.
So he totally does get personal gain.

[Avilan the Grey]

In Lois and Clark: the New Adventures of Superman: Clark does do that. He gets french bakery in one episode for himself.
Another he goes get the pasta from Italy and bring it home before it gets home.
So he totally does get personal gain.

"...And that's Terrible". :smallbiggrin:

[Evil DM Mark3]

In Lois and Clark: the New Adventures of Superman: Clark does do that. He gets french bakery in one episode for himself.
Another he goes get the pasta from Italy and bring it home before it gets home.
So he totally does get personal gain.More than once I thought. I mean he gets Chinese food that way once too (Lois complains about the fortune) and in another episode he superspeed runs into work because he was late, resulting in him having to claim he was on a cellphone when someone asked how he called them 2 minutes from the office, an laser vision shaving is part of the daily routine, saving a small fortune in razorblades.


He's sort of the opposite of Batman. Where Bruce Wayne is the "mask" for Batman, Clark Kent is really the core of what Superman is.Funny, I always thought of Clark as who he wants to be and Superman as who he feels he should be, which is kinda similar.

[TheEmerged]

"Superman is what I can do. Clark is who I am."

That line has been in the Lois/Clark show and the comics, so I think that's the official version until they decide to change it again :smallbiggrin:

[VanBuren]

Funny, I always thought of Clark as who he wants to be and Superman as who he feels he should be, which is kinda similar.

Well, basically the idea is that Clark Kent is real where Bruce Wayne is a facade.

[Kris Strife]

More than once I thought. I mean he gets Chinese food that way once too (Lois complains about the fortune) and in another episode he superspeed runs into work because he was late, resulting in him having to claim he was on a cellphone when someone asked how he called them 2 minutes from the office, an laser vision shaving is part of the daily routine, saving a small fortune in razorblades.

In some versions he has to shave with heat vision because there aren't any razors that can actually cut his hair.

[VanBuren]

Correction: After a visit to TVtropes, I understand that the issue of which was the "real" one has been going back and forth, but the most common one is that he's really Superman, and he's really Clark Kent.

Which still makes him a foil for Batman in a way, since instead of constructing a false persona at all, Superman is genuinely himself in all of his identities.

[WitchSlayer]

Correction: After a visit to TVtropes, I understand that the issue of which was the "real" one has been going back and forth, but the most common one is that he's really Superman, and he's really Clark Kent.

Which still makes him a foil for Batman in a way, since instead of constructing a false persona at all, Superman is genuinely himself in all of his identities.

Nah, I'd say he's not really the alien Kal-El or the clumsy reporter Clark Kent, he's the farmboy from Kansas.

[TheEmerged]

Correction: After a visit to TVtropes, I understand that the issue of which was the "real" one has been going back and forth, but the most common one is that he's really Superman, and he's really Clark Kent.

Which still makes him a foil for Batman in a way, since instead of constructing a false persona at all, Superman is genuinely himself in all of his identities.

Hence my crack about "changing it again". I'm a student of the "Clark is Real, Superman is fascade" school of thought obviously.

Speaking of how bad I dislike this writer's take on Wonder Woman?

Last issue, the villain he's been building up & implying is Hades? Is in fact just a jumped-up flunkie that she kills... by burning with his own fire. and she can fly again, with no real explanation beyond "okay you can fly now".