PDA

View Full Version : 3.5/PF: If you had to pick....feats for the Legionary



Hurlbut
2010-10-27, 02:09 PM
If you had to pick four feats (2 character and 2 combat) for a Fighter 3, what would they be and why?
If the legionary was a human, what would be his bonus feat? (making 5 feats in all)

Iron Will, Endurance, Weapon Focus, Shield Wall, and Toughness (human bonus feat).

Iron Will; so he can better resist fear and morale effects.
Endurance; so he can endure forced marches.
Weapon Focus; so he can kill you more accurately with his shortsword. :smallbiggrin:
Shield Wall; so he and his comrades can get +2 increase to their shields' bonus for their AC :smallcool:
Toughness (human bonus feat); for a little HP buffer. *shrugs*

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-10-27, 02:25 PM
I'd consider Brutal Throw for his pilum/javelin.
Shield Specialization is another one.
Improved Shield Bash I'd probably want to give out for free, since it's how a shield should work, but I'd take that as well.
Combat Expertise, for when they just hold position and let the shields do the work.
And a human would get EWP: Bastard Sword and put the extra skill points in ride, making him a cavalry trooper with a spatha.

gorfnab
2010-10-27, 02:40 PM
Pathfinder Fighter Phalanx Soldier (PAPG)
1. Shield Wall
1. Shieldmate
1. Improved Shield Bash
2. Shield Specialization
3. Agile Shield Fighter or maybe Active Shield Defense

Eldariel
2010-10-27, 03:46 PM
Fighter 3 dumb level, Thog not take. Replace with e.g. level of Ranger trading all the wilderness stuff away to get Spot & Listen in class. 'cause I mean, friggin' Legionnaires should have eyes and ears.

Keld Denar
2010-10-27, 03:54 PM
Combat Reflexes + Long Spear. If you have a dex of 12, this will increase the average number of attacks you make by 50% against other similar sized foes. I think there is a feat in a Dragon Mag that lets you weild a Long Spear and a Shield at the same time, so...Combat Reflexes + that for combat feats.

For the other 2, um, PA and Cleave. If you are fighting similar low level foes who you should be able to crush in an AoO + single attack, having Cleave is gonna net you a whole lot of extra attacks. Suddenly we have a Fighter 3 who is making up to 4 attacks per round, situationally, for situations that are very likely to occure in mass combat vs other low level humanoid enemies.

Hurlbut
2010-10-27, 10:56 PM
To be honest, if the concept in question was going to be wielding a spear weapon, I would mentioned phalanx fighter or such and not the Legionary.

Maeglin_Dubh: why Brutal Throw? For 2 piliums that's only used in the initial opening shot of the battle?
Combat Expertise required Int 13, that isn't something you can expect an average legionary to have, except for those who are assigned to engineering jobs.

When I say a legionary, I do mean a foot soldier in the same style of the Roman Army 1st Century AD. If he's going to be cavalry, he'll be trained for it and not as a legionary :smallbiggrin:

Zaydos
2010-10-27, 11:02 PM
If going full on Legionnaire then Shield Specialization doesn't work, or Improved Shield Bash. These guys are famous for their tower shields which are not valid for the former and cannot be used with the latter.

I would probably go:
Shield Wall
Parrying Shield

And not sure what else, I don't usually use a Tower Shield (if I'm going to go shield master I'm going to have Shield Specialization, Agile Shield Fighter/Defense, and Improved Shield Bash).
Maybe Hold the Line, although that's only useful against medium foes.

gorfnab
2010-10-28, 01:00 AM
Fighter 3 dumb level, Thog not take. Replace with e.g. level of Ranger trading all the wilderness stuff away to get Spot & Listen in class. 'cause I mean, friggin' Legionnaires should have eyes and ears.
Normally yes Fighter 3 is dead level (except for maybe Zhentarim Fighter ACF from Champions of Valor Web Enhancement) but the Pathfinder Phalanx Soldier Fighter variant at 3rd level gives you the ability to treat polearms and spears as one handed weapons when wielding a shield which is perfect for a Roman Legionary type build.

Hawriel
2010-10-28, 01:07 AM
The phalanx option mentioned above is good. Also use teamworks feats. Legionaires fight in formation relying on each other. Any thing that would inhance formation fighting fits.

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-10-28, 01:35 AM
Roman cavalry wasn't that great, thus giving him EWP instead of Mounted Combat. In that era, Roman cavalry basically -was- a legionary on a horse.

If you'd prefer to keep their intelligence below 13, replace Combat Expertise with Combat Reflexes - giving them the ability to take advantage of their enemies' sloppy formations and deployment. Unless your legionaries are clumsy too, in which case give them Quick Draw, to get that next javelin/pilum out faster, and then have their shortsword ready to go at a moment's notice.

If treating the scutum as a tower shield, then give them (instead of Shield Specialization and Improved Shield Bash) Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush, as the scutum was used as a battering ram when charging, and was apparently good at it.

Now that I think of it, cavalry would use a lighter shield and longer sword, so here's a revised list now that I've written this novella.

Legionary (Legionnaire is a member of the French Foreign Legion)
Brutal Throw - You really want that pilum to stick. You've only got two shots.
Quick Draw - Assuming a Str/Con based build here, CReflexes isn't that good. QD is universally useful for the style.
Power Attack - Mainly a prerequisite.
Improved Bull Rush - Charge, break their shieldwall with the weight of your own.

Cavalry
Replace BT with Mounted Combat (maybe just don't max out their Ride, assume they're not amazing horsemen, just serviceable)
Replace IBR with Shield Specialization

Auxiliaries
Replace BT with Point Blank Shot
Replace PA with Precise Shot
Replace IBR with Rapid Shot

Hurlbut
2010-10-28, 07:35 AM
The romans did made up for their poor native cavalry by recruiting auxiliary cavalry from gauls, germans, and others. They only used the roman cavalry for scouting, message services, and pursuing fleeing enemies. :smallwink:

Maeglin_Dubh: Auxiliaries were speciality troops for various roles, not just being archers. So depending on the region, they can be horse archer, spear or sword soldier (gaul swordsman type), slinger, and so forth.

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-10-28, 11:24 AM
You haven't said anything I don't know. But I gave you stats for three simple 'Roman' level 3 fighters. All you asked for was a Legionary, and I give you cav and archers as a bonus, and you reply by assuming I'm a cretin.

I -could- give you feat lists for every nationality and speciality that ever served in the Roman army, but (1) you didn't seem like you needed that level of detail, and (2) I really don't care to.

Do you want feat lists that allow you to make a decent approximation of the early Imperial era Roman Legion, or do you want stats for the Roman Legion?

Sarakos
2010-10-28, 07:59 PM
If treating the scutum as a tower shield, then give them (instead of Shield Specialization and Improved Shield Bash) Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush, as the scutum was used as a battering ram when charging, and was apparently good at it.

Now that I think of it, cavalry would use a lighter shield and longer sword, so here's a revised list now that I've written this novella.

Legionary (Legionnaire is a member of the French Foreign Legion)
Brutal Throw - You really want that pilum to stick. You've only got two shots.
Quick Draw - Assuming a Str/Con based build here, CReflexes isn't that good. QD is universally useful for the style.
Power Attack - Mainly a prerequisite.
Improved Bull Rush - Charge, break their shieldwall with the weight of your own.

Cavalry
Replace BT with Mounted Combat (maybe just don't max out their Ride, assume they're not amazing horsemen, just serviceable)
Replace IBR with Shield Specialization

Auxiliaries
Replace BT with Point Blank Shot
Replace PA with Precise Shot
Replace IBR with Rapid Shot

Thanks for this,making a Legionary was the first character i ever wanted to build when i first started playing D&D bu abandoned the attempt because i couldnt figure out what feats/armor/shield they would use. Thanks to this little section i have a legionary written up as a back up character for a level 12 campaign im in

Hurlbut
2010-10-29, 11:07 AM
Thanks for this,making a Legionary was the first character i ever wanted to build when i first started playing D&D bu abandoned the attempt because i couldnt figure out what feats/armor/shield they would use. Thanks to this little section i have a legionary written up as a back up character for a level 12 campaign im inDragon 328's Class Acts fighter page devoted itself to the Roman Legionary (though they called it Legionnaire).

Maeglin_Dubh: I never intended to imply or insult you. When you gave the feat layout for the Auxiliaries it gave an impression that they were all archers or ranged troop.

Why quick draw though? They would have drawn their sword before combat initiated or draw their weapons as part of a move action :smallsmile:

I'm still leery about Brutal Throw. Mainly that I could take Iron Will (discplince and superstitious) or Endurance (Better to resist damage from forced marches) over it.

subject42
2010-10-29, 11:20 AM
The Gang Up (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/feats/combat-feats/gang-up-combat) feat would probably be spectacular for the legion. It would do a good job of simulating the "Block Left Stab Right" tactic that the front line used.

Outflank (http://www.pathfindersrd.com/feats/teamwork-feats/outflank-combat-teamwork) would work nicely, as well, if you had the BAB for it. Maybe you could use that for the Centurions at the end of the line.

Greenish
2010-10-29, 11:40 AM
Normally yes Fighter 3 is dead level (except for maybe Zhentarim Fighter ACF from Champions of Valor Web Enhancement) but the Pathfinder Phalanx Soldier Fighter variant at 3rd level gives you the ability to treat polearms and spears as one handed weapons when wielding a shield which is perfect for a Roman Legionary type build.That's an excellent thing. With that, I'd take

EWP: Awlpike 15' reach, yes please.
Combat Reflexes Even without positive Dex mod, requirement.
Hold the Line Ha!
Stand Still Let's see you charge this formation!
With the pike readied against a charge, you get two attacks the moment enemy gets within your reach, with one of those doing double damage. When the enemy tries to move out of your threatened squares, you slap him down and prevent him from moving.

Oh well, that's more like a pikeman than an actual legionnaire.


Let's try again: Shield Specialization, Shield Ward, Formation Expert, Shield Wall and something, maybe Endurance or Weapon Focus for short sword. Phalanx Fighting sadly requires a heavy shield.

[Edit]: Formation Expert might not fly, I've forgotten the prerequisites, but most other tactical feats require +6 BAB.

Hurlbut
2010-10-29, 05:50 PM
Phalanx Fighting sadly requires a heavy shield.
Er, doesn't the heavy wooden shield count as a heavy shield? :smallwink:

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-10-29, 10:31 PM
Quick Draw is to have the sword in-hand immediately after throwing the pilum.

As for Iron Will and Endurance....

I'd give Endurance to the humans for their feat. Dwarves have +2 Con to help them endure the hike, Half-orcs have +2 Str to ease their encumbrance on the hike, Elves have their burden reduced by not needing as much time to rest, and halflings and gnomes don't belong in the Legion.

Fear saves are covered by the Signifiers (Fgt2/Marshall1) and Decurions (Fgt2/Marshall2), possibly boosted by a battle standard (masterwork banner providing +2 to morale checks and saves against fear by all those in the legion it represents within eyesight.)