Ray of Stupidity - Broken?

[KingMerv00]

Recently my group of 6 (all 6th level) went up against a pair of kobold sorcerer's and a handful of mooks. I managed to drop the ranger/rogue very quickly when I spammed him with 3 rays of stupidity. I could have done the same to the rest of the party had the sorcerer twins not burned a lot of spells off screen.

As written, it just requires a ranged touch attack and the damage stacks. I'm thinking of house ruling otherwise. I had three ideas:

1) Require a will save.

2) Don't let it stack (a la ray of enfeeblement).

3) Raise the level from 2nd to around 4th.

I'm currently favoring #1. What do you think? Should I leave it as is?

[Amphetryon]

It's good, not broken. Leave it as is, remembering that if you nerf it in some way, you'll make it harder for the players to use as well.

[KingMerv00]

It's good, not broken. Leave it as is, remembering that if you nerf it in some way, you'll make it harder for the players to use as well.

Nerfing generally favors the PCs because they have to actually survive battles. Plot centric reocurring villains don't have to until they interact with the PCs.

Edit: Also, it was the players that have suggested the nerf, not me.

[Douglas]

The big problem is that it can go all the way to 0. Ray of Enfeeblement is powerful, but the fact that it stops at strength 1 is what really prevents it from being broken. Ray of Stupidity has no such limitation, so it can outright take someone out of the fight completely. This is particularly egregious against animals, as they typically have low touch AC and at most 2 intelligence. Specifically for use against the PCs, the fact that it's ability damage and available at spell level 2 makes for vastly longer recovery time than usual.

I'd say make it a non-stacking penalty with the same duration as Ray of Enfeeblement and don't let it drop intelligence below 1. That changes it from an instant near-automatic win against almost anything to a disabling debuff specific to certain casters, about as powerful against Wizards as Ray of Enfeeblement is against strength-based fighters.

Edit: I just checked the spell text, and it does do quite a bit less damage than Ray of Enfeeblement. If you change it to not stack, you may want to increase the damage, though perhaps not quite as high as fully matching RoE. It should be enough to seriously inconvenience any wizard, but not so much that a lucky roll could render a typical same-level wizard completely incapable of casting spells.

[Keld Denar]

What is this spell you speak of. My copy of SpC doesn't have it. There is a big piece of white paper with the words VERBOTEN stamped on it in red ink pasted in place where the spell would be.

I see no problem, I hear no problem, I speak no problem...

EDIT: Also, being level 2, metamagic is a huge problem. Split Ray of Stupidity is a 4th level spell that does 2d4+2 Int damage, average 7, max 10. That'll reduce most wizards under level 10 of nearly all of their spellcasting ability. Quickened Ray of Stupidity is a 6th level spell, and a REALLY good one at that.

[Boci]

I'd say make it a non-stacking penalty with the same duration as Ray of Enfeeblement and don't let it drop intelligence below 1.

Nitpick: A penalty already doesn't stack with itself and cannot reduce a stat below 1.

[Reynard]

Recently my group of 6 (all 6th level) went up against a pair of kobold sorcerer's and a handful of mooks. I managed to drop the ranger/rogue very quickly when I spammed him with 3 rays of stupidity. I could have done the same to the rest of the party had the sorcerer twins not burned a lot of spells off screen.

Then, uh, don't do that. Why target the Ranger/Rogue, does your group not have a Caster?


As written, it just requires a ranged touch attack and the damage stacks. I'm thinking of house ruling otherwise. I had three ideas:

1) Require a will save.

2) Don't let it stack (a la ray of enfeeblement).

3) Raise the level from 2nd to around 4th.

I'm currently favoring #1. What do you think? Should I leave it as is?

Will save is probably best, yeah.

[Douglas]

Nitpick: A penalty already doesn't stack with itself and cannot reduce a stat below 1.
You're right about the non-stacking, but not about the minimum 1. Ray of Enfeeblement only stops at 1 because the spell specifically says it does.

[gbprime]

High level casters have fun with this one. Had a 16th level wizard w/ 10 levels in Dweomerkeeper that had this as an Arcane Thesis spell. Could use a 2nd level slot for an Empowered Ray of Stupidity (3, 4, 6, or 7 INT damage) which one-shots animals and most beasts, or a 4th level slot for an Empowered Twin Ray of Stupidity, which works much better than Feeblemind.

The GM prevented me from auto-countering enemy arcanists with it by making sure Globe of Invulnerability (and the lower level version) were common enough to deflect this spell most of the time. Perfectly reasonable solution against a 16th level PC.

Oh, and spell reflecting these things... I had that happen to me once when I didn't have my own Globe up. Hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

[Tael]

The way you use it, it's not broken. Your other party members just seem to do abysmal damage. (Seriously, when can't you kill something in 3 turns?)

It's real problem is with animals. Ray of Stupidity basically means that the DM can never again field any animals, or other 1-2 int creatures.

[KingMerv00]

Then, uh, don't do that. Why target the Ranger/Rogue, does your group not have a Caster?

The master illusionist was out of range. :smallbiggrin:

At the moment the only person in range was the ranger/rogue and he went down with three castings.


Will save is probably best, yeah.

Still leaning that way myself. I think it is more balanced because your typical wizard has an above average will save but one failure could wipe out 5 levels of spells. It would also still be useful against meatshields.

My biggest complaint is that a single ray of stupidity could take out any animal.

[KingMerv00]

EDIT: Also, being level 2, metamagic is a huge problem. Split Ray of Stupidity is a 4th level spell that does 2d4+2 Int damage, average 7, max 10. That'll reduce most wizards under level 10 of nearly all of their spellcasting ability. Quickened Ray of Stupidity is a 6th level spell, and a REALLY good one at that.

Doesn't split ray require two separate targets? I could be wrong.

[Boci]

Still leaning that way myself. I think it is more balanced because your typical wizard has an above average will save but one failure could wipe out 5 levels of spells. It would also still be useful against meatshields.

My biggest complaint is that a single ray of stupidity could take out any animal.

Then making it a penalty that cannot reduce intelligence below 0 might work best.

[Godless_Paladin]

Recently my group of 6 (all 6th level) went up against a pair of kobold sorcerer's and a handful of mooks. I managed to drop the ranger/rogue very quickly when I spammed him with 3 rays of stupidity. I could have done the same to the rest of the party had the sorcerer twins not burned a lot of spells off screen.

As written, it just requires a ranged touch attack and the damage stacks. I'm thinking of house ruling otherwise. I had three ideas:

1) Require a will save.

2) Don't let it stack (a la ray of enfeeblement).

3) Raise the level from 2nd to around 4th.

I'm currently favoring #1. What do you think? Should I leave it as is?

Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't have a save. In fact, few rays do, short of Disintegrate.

[Coidzor]

Recently my group of 6 (all 6th level) went up against a pair of kobold sorcerer's and a handful of mooks. I managed to drop the ranger/rogue very quickly when I spammed him with 3 rays of stupidity. I could have done the same to the rest of the party had the sorcerer twins not burned a lot of spells off screen.

That's 3 turns to take out one of 6 guys. This suggests incompetence on the party's part that they wouldn't have been able to shut down an enemy caster in 15-18 turns.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Yeah, when my group of PCs got to the Isle of Dread in Savage Tide, where a great percentage of your enemies happen to be animals, the wizard would pretty much end encounters with Ray of Stupidity. It made the whole 'deadly island of impossible danger and death' much less... bad.

Still, animals are animals, and it would make sense for there to be spells that could cull them with minimal effort, but that robs them of a certain amount of their scare factor. The T-Rex is scary because it's a big dumb eating machine. You can't reason with a dire tiger, and your horse isn't going to think of a way to break you out of jail. If these things are the price one must pay for the crippling weakness that is Ray of Stupidity, I suppose that's just the bitter reality of the situation. Of course, you could always ban it, but I've never seen it used against anything but animals...

[Douglas]

The GM prevented me from auto-countering enemy arcanists with it by making sure Globe of Invulnerability (and the lower level version) were common enough to deflect this spell most of the time. Perfectly reasonable solution against a 16th level PC.
Just add a few levels of Heighten and Globe isn't a problem any more.


Oh, and spell reflecting these things... I had that happen to me once when I didn't have my own Globe up. Hilarious. :smallbiggrin:
Spell Turning doesn't work on rays. They are Effect spells, and are therefore not affected any more than a Fireball or Summon Monster would be.

[KingMerv00]

The way you use it, it's not broken. Your other party members just seem to do abysmal damage. (Seriously, when can't you kill something in 3 turns?)

It only took 2 rounds. In the first round both sorcerers fired rays of stupidity. Only one more was needed in the second round. Why couldn't they stop them? A few reasons:

1) The party spell supply was pretty burned out. (They were on a battlefield.)

2) The sorcerer twins were up on a ship while the part was on land. The only way on board was a ladder .

3) Mooks were blocking the ladder and slowing down the PCs.

4) The sorcerers had cover.

[Keld Denar]

Doesn't split ray require two separate targets? I could be wrong.
*opens Complete Arcane* *reads Complete Arcane* nope, no such rule. If you multi-target, the targets have to be within 30' of each other like any other volley style ray (Scorching Ray for example). No restriction on hitting the same target twice though.


Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't have a save. In fact, few rays do, short of Disintegrate.

Ray of Exhaustion does, as does Stun Ray and Avasculate, but all have a partial effect on a successful save. I can't think of a single ray that doesn't have a partial effect as long as you can make the touch attack.

[Amphetryon]

It only took 2 rounds. In the first round both sorcerers fired rays of stupidity. Only one more was needed in the second round. Why couldn't they stop them? A few reasons:

1) The party spell supply was pretty burned out. (They were on a battlefield.)

2) The sorcerer twins were up on a ship while the part was on land. The only way on board was a ladder .

3) Mooks were blocking the ladder and slowing down the PCs.

4) The sorcerers had cover.
This reads a lot more like 'the bad guys had superior tactics and spellpower overall' than 'OMG Ray of Stupidity is teh b0rkenizt!' to me. The sorcerers could almost certainly have done enough damage to drop the Rogue/Ranger with three castings of a Lesser Cold Orb in that time, honestly.

[KingMerv00]

That's 3 turns to take out one of 6 guys. This suggests incompetence on the party's part that they wouldn't have been able to shut down an enemy caster in 15-18 turns.

See above. Trust me, they weren't incompetent. At worst, they were over confident. They probably should have ran and called it a day. They ultimately managed to win thanks to low kobold hit points and the fact that the kobolds were pretty burned out too.

[KingMerv00]

Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't have a save.

I know. That doesn't mean ROS shouldn't have a save. Ray of enfeeblement also doesn't stack with itself.

[Ernir]

Broken? Nah. But I think it's too powerful for its level.

I'd have given it a "can not reduce a target below 1" clause. Would still be able to shut down Wizards (and Factotums and a whole bunch of other people, I guess), but it wouldn't make Animals and low-int Magical Beasts completely trivial.


By the way, I am playing with a Sorceress who has this spell.
She is the one with the most reliable method of flight of everyone in the party, so in the last session, she went ahead to scout.
She found the next encounter. A 9-headed hydra. The hydra couldn't reach her. She shot one RoS. Instant knockout.

When the rest of us showed up, all we could/had to do was deliver CdGs...

[gbprime]

Just add a few levels of Heighten and Globe isn't a problem any more.
At that level, I'm a bit short on feats, even after the EtDC/StDC conga line. :smallwink:



Spell Turning doesn't work on rays. They are Effect spells, and are therefore not affected any more than a Fireball or Summon Monster would be.

Oh, so it doesn't. Oh well. It was still funny.

[KingMerv00]

This reads a lot more like 'the bad guys had superior tactics and spellpower overall' than 'OMG Ray of Stupidity is teh b0rkenizt!' to me.

For what it's worth, the players weren't upset. It was just a quiet suggestion.


The sorcerers could almost certainly have done enough damage to drop the Rogue/Ranger with three castings of a Lesser Cold Orb in that time, honestly.

As I mentioned, the sorcerers were burned out from being on a battlefield too. They only had one 3rd level spell each. (One was fireball, the other was suggestion.)

[Myth]

Nitpick: A penalty already doesn't stack with itself and cannot reduce a stat below 1.


Then making it a penalty that cannot reduce intelligence below 0 might work best.

Yes it does. This spell deals Int damage. Cast it two times, it deals int damage two times. Cast a Chained Repaeat Twin Spell Empowered Maximized one to take out every bear that ever lived in the forest. Penalties can't reduce stats below 0 by RAW. It's just that having you at 0 int by Ability Damage means you will be Helpless for the rest of the day. See the SRD:

Ability Score Loss

Some attacks reduce the opponent’s score in one or more abilities. This loss can be temporary (ability damage) or permanent (ability drain).

While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.

* Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.
* Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.
* Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.
* Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.
* Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.
* Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.

Keeping track of negative ability score points is never necessary. A character’s ability score can’t drop below 0.

Having a score of 0 in an ability is different from having no ability score whatsoever.

Some spells or abilities impose an effective ability score reduction, which is different from ability score loss. Any such reduction disappears at the end of the spell’s or ability’s duration, and the ability score immediately returns to its former value.

If a character’s Constitution score drops, then he loses 1 hit point per Hit Die for every point by which his Constitution modifier drops. A hit point score can’t be reduced by Constitution damage or drain to less than 1 hit point per Hit Die.

The ability that some creatures have to drain ability scores is a supernatural one, requiring some sort of attack. Such creatures do not drain abilities from enemies when the enemies strike them, even with unarmed attacks or natural weapons.
Ability Damage

This attack damages an opponent’s ability score. The creature’s descriptive text gives the ability and the amount of damage. If an attack that causes ability damage scores a critical hit, it deals twice the indicated amount of damage (if the damage is expressed as a die range, roll two dice).

Points lost to ability damage return at the rate of 1 point per day (or double that if the character gets complete bed rest) to each damaged ability, and the spells lesser restoration and restoration offset ability damage as well.
Ability Drain

This effect permanently reduces a living opponent’s ability score when the creature hits with a melee attack. The creature’s descriptive text gives the ability and the amount drained. If an attack that causes ability drain scores a critical hit, it drains twice the indicated amount (if the damage is expressed as a die range, roll two dice). Unless otherwise specified in the creature’s description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) whenever it drains an ability score no matter how many points it drains. Temporary hit points gained in this fashion last for a maximum of 1 hour.

Some ability drain attacks allow a Fortitude save (DC 10 + ½ draining creature’s racial HD + draining creature’s Cha modifier; the exact DC is given in the creature’s descriptive text). If no saving throw is mentioned, none is allowed.

Points lost to ability drain, is permanent, though restoration can restore even those lost ability score points.


The spell is quite broken IMO, although not yet in the ultra cheese areas. But it can make short work of Int casters and severely cripple those who make Int their dump stat (which is 2/3rds of the classes)

And of course, killing any and all magical beasts or animals as well> A 12 headed hydra at level 2? No problem. True Strike + ROS.

By the way one does not protect themselves from rays via Globe of Invulnerability or (erroneously) trough Spell Turning. The proper defense is Ray Deflection from the SC. Persist it. Extend it. Use it.

[Boci]

Yes it does. This spell deals Int damage. Cast it two times, it deals int damage two times. Cast a Chained Repaeat Twin Spell Empowered Maximized one to take out every bear that ever lived in the forest. Penalties can't reduce stats below 0 by RAW. It's just that having you at 0 int by Ability Damage means you will be Helpless for the rest of the day. See the SRD:

I know (douglas pointed it out already), thats why I suggested making it a penalty that cannot reduce inteligence below 1 as a fix.

[Fax Celestis]

Yes it does. This spell deals Int damage.

They were referring to penalties (such as those from a ray of clumsiness or a ray of enfeeblement), not to the spell in question.

[Brock Samson]

Yeah, if you PC got hit with most ANY 3 spells in a row he should be down. Don't blame RoS too much.

[Godless_Paladin]

Ray of Exhaustion does, as does Stun Ray and Avasculate, but all have a partial effect on a successful save. I can't think of a single ray that doesn't have a partial effect as long as you can make the touch attack.

Hence "short of."

[cfalcon]

As regards split ray, it's very under budget compared to other metamagic feats- most of the "double this spell" type effects cost 3 or 4 levels and have some strange limitation- this one's limitation is that it only affects rays. But that still makes it really under budget over the field of spells that it does effect.

[Alleine]

Yeah, if you PC got hit with most ANY 3 spells in a row he should be down. Don't blame RoS too much.

This. Focus firing a PC with magic is brutal.

In a recent campaign our high level characters popped into a room of fighter/wizards. Shouldn't be much of a problem, right? After all, they don't have too many levels in wizard. Heh, yeah. They had enough levels for fireball. And when 15 or so guys do the logical thing and unleash 15 fireballs at you when you didn't think to put up fire resistance... well, you die. I and one of the party meatsticks were the only ones in the room and both of us got roasted badly. I'll admit that I had a much lower max hp than I should have, but it insta killed the fighter who'd been pumping his hp.

I know it makes sense, but having multiple casters target the same guy is going to decimate most of the time.