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Master Thrower
2010-10-27, 02:36 PM
Hello I'm looking to build a frontline combatant, and the kensai class looks interesting. But i don't know how to build one. My current build is something the along the lines of fighter 4-6ish kensai up to level nine, using a jovar. But i dont know how good that would be. Books avalible are PH, CW, CadV CD CA, planar handbook. DMG, Drc

Dr.Epic
2010-10-27, 02:37 PM
Hello I'm looking to build a frontline combatant, and the kensai class looks interesting. But i don't know how to build one. My current build is something the along the lines of fighter 4-6ish kensai up to level nine, using a jovar. But i dont know how good that would be. Books avalible are PH, CW, CadV CD CA, planar handbook. PH, DMG, Drc

What sort of enchantments would you add to your weapon?

Master Thrower
2010-10-27, 02:41 PM
What sort of enchantments would you add to your weapon?

Since the jovar is a 18-20 crit i'd make it keen and burst of some sort

Tokuhara
2010-10-27, 02:45 PM
Hello I'm looking to build a frontline combatant, and the kensai class looks interesting. But i don't know how to build one. My current build is something the along the lines of fighter 4-6ish kensai up to level nine, using a jovar. But i dont know how good that would be. Books avaliable are PH, CW, CadV CD CA, planar handbook. PH, DMG, Drc

1. Racially, I suggest a (ironically) Lesser Aasimar (essentially an Aasimar w/out Outsider type. Mentioned in PGtF) or a Dragonborn Water Orc (cheesy, but brutal)

2a. Using the Lesser Aasimar, use Samurai from CW. Yeah, it sucks under many circumstances, but its a CHA-based nightmare. Combo it with Paly, then some Kensai and Ordained Champion, and you rise to beatstick coolness. Just don't forget to either take the Feat Paly or the Dynamic Priest feat from Dragonlance, which makes your casting CHA, not WIS, and voila. You are a single-minded noble hero of celestial ancestry who uses an ancestral daisho (maybe make it come from one of the realms of Celestia)

2b. For the Dragonborn Water Orc, don't do fighter. Ever. I suggest either Knight or (ironically) Favored Soul. In the Knight build, combo it instead with Dragon Lord from Dragon Magic or maybe Knight Protector fro CW, then jump into Kensai. In this case, make your shield your favored weapon. Sure, sword & board isn't awesome, but you'd be a friggen tank! For Favored Soul, be a favored soul of Hextor and take EWP: Dire Flail. Then go Kensai with the Dire Flail.

Master Thrower
2010-10-27, 02:48 PM
The only problem is those races are banned as they aren't in the allowed books. and while favored soul is good, i'm going to be the primary melee fighter of the party

Tokuhara
2010-10-27, 02:50 PM
The only problem is those races are banned as they aren't in the allowed books. and while favored soul is good, i'm going to be the primary melee fighter of the party

Then, with that, I suggest Gnome. Seriously: NOBODY would expect a Gnome Samurai. EVER!!!

Dr.Epic
2010-10-27, 02:52 PM
Since the jovar is a 18-20 crit i'd make it keen and burst of some sort

Not a bad idea. Just have some others in case you constructs, undead, or anything else immune to crits.


Then, with that, I suggest Gnome. Seriously: NOBODY would expect a Gnome Samurai. EVER!!!

No, a butterfly.

Master Thrower
2010-10-27, 02:57 PM
what levels should I take though? as a ninth level character ideally i'd like to enter kensai at 5. but the fifth level of fighter is pointless.

Dr.Epic
2010-10-27, 02:59 PM
what levels should I take though? as a ninth level character ideally i'd like to enter kensai at 5. but the fifth level of fighter is pointless.

Paladin? You'd get smite evil, detect evil, not to mention lawful works for you, but are you planning to be good.

Master Thrower
2010-10-27, 02:59 PM
Paladin? You'd get smite evil, detect evil, not to mention lawful works for you, but are you planning to be good.

Unfortunately the party is an evil party...

Tokuhara
2010-10-27, 03:00 PM
what levels should I take though? as a ninth level character ideally i'd like to enter kensai at 5. but the fifth level of fighter is pointless.

I'm gonna stick to my Gnomish guns and suggest you actually do Hexblade (If you're LN, you still qualify!) and take up a couple levels in Exotic Weapon Master.

Master Thrower
2010-10-27, 03:05 PM
I'm gonna stick to my Gnomish guns and suggest you actually do Hexblade (If you're LN, you still qualify!) and take up a couple levels in Exotic Weapon Master.

BUt what does gnome get me? it reduces my frontline damage, and makes me easier to grapple

Dr.Epic
2010-10-27, 03:07 PM
Unfortunately the party is an evil party...

Paladin of Tyranny Try and convince your DM to let you use Unearthed Arcana.

I don't know. Is one pointless level of fighter really that bad? Maybe rogue for the sneak attack ability. It could come in handy, but a d6 HD. Meh.

Master Thrower
2010-10-27, 03:10 PM
Also rouges dont get full base attack bonus. so i'd need to levels of rouge

Tokuhara
2010-10-27, 03:16 PM
BUt what does gnome get me? it reduces my frontline damage, and makes me easier to grapple

+2 Con? +1 AC? Illusion SLAs? Need More?

Talk to your DM about letting one ACF in: SA Fighter. Remove fighter's feats and give him SA.

Master Thrower
2010-10-27, 03:45 PM
hmm. how about hexblade 4 fighter 1 kensai 4

Tokuhara
2010-10-27, 03:47 PM
hmm. how about hexblade 4 fighter 1 kensai 4

I'd say go for it, plus pick up a level or two in Exotic Weapon Master after Kensai4

Iku Rex
2010-10-27, 04:22 PM
Ftr4/Mnk2 is a good way to enter Kensai. You get the skills you need, and the monk feats can come in handy (Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes). Evasion works well with Withstand. Don't be afraid to wear armor.

Master Thrower
2010-10-27, 05:59 PM
what about monk 4 fighter 2 kensai 3. If so what feats should I take.

gallagher
2010-10-27, 08:40 PM
you listed PH twice, does that mean one is psionics?

if so, psychic warrior with soulbound weapon would be pretty legit. tashlatora (or however it is spelled) monk 2/psiwar 3 will get you expand, vigor, and call weapon, two fighter feats that can also be psionic feats, and you will be able to make yourself larger (if you can fit in practiced manifester and earth power, i dont know if my math is right, but you might be able to make yourself two size categories higher... if not make it monk 1 psiwar 4 and see if that works)

also, make it a keen jovar. critfishing works well with it, and ask your DM if you can get strongarm bracers from MiC. it will let you wield one size category larger. that makes it 2d8 if i recall. expand to one size category higher makes it 3d6, and augment to larger makes you 4d6 base damage.

Quietus
2010-10-27, 08:43 PM
Also rouges dont get full base attack bonus. so i'd need to levels of rouge

ROGUEROGUEROGUEROGUEROGUEROGUEROGUEROGUEROGUEROGUE ROGUE

Rouge never gets any base attack, ever. Unless it's animated and awakened, I suppose, but then it's still freaking makeup.

enderrocksonall
2010-10-27, 08:56 PM
I'd suggest the Fighter 5 and then dervish and kensai. I ran one of those using scimitars and two-weapon fighting and his AC can get into the mid 60's using combat expertise feat and the defensive weapon magical enchantment.

Master Thrower
2010-10-27, 09:03 PM
Fighter 1 ranger 1 monk 4 kensai 3

Feats
Weapon focus (unarmed strike) combat expertise. Aesthetic hunter
Fists of iron
Improved initiative
Superior unarmed strikes

Fighter 1 Hex blade 4 Kensai 4
Feats
Weapon focus (Jovar) combat expertise, blindfight
Improved critical (jovar)
Power critical (jovar)
Improved initiative

Samurai 1 Fighter 4 Kensai 4
Feats
Two weapon fighting, oversized two weapon fighting, weapon focus (bastard sword)
Combat expertise
Improved initiative.
Two weapon defense.

Iku Rex
2010-10-27, 10:00 PM
Quick suggestion:

Fighter4/Monk2/Kensai3

1 Human
1,3,6,9 levels
1,2,4 ftr
5,5,6 mnk

Dodge
Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Defensive Throw (CWar)
EWP: SC, Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain), Karmic Strike (CWar)
IUS, Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes


AoO/trip build. You could save a feat by using a guisarme and relying on unarmed strikes up close. Requires decent stats. (Str for trip and damage, Dex for AC and AoOs, Con for surviving and Int for Combat Expertise.) Improved Disarm would also be nice, but there aren't enough feats.

Being Large gets you a +4 bonus on trip as well as 20' reach, so consider buying lots of potions of enlarge person.

Armbands of Might (4100 gp, CAdv) are must-haves, for extra damage and Str check bonus.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-28, 02:15 AM
Fighter 1 ranger 1 monk 4 kensai 3

Feats
Weapon focus (unarmed strike) combat expertise. Aesthetic hunter
Fists of iron
Improved initiative
Superior unarmed strikes

Fighter 1 Hex blade 4 Kensai 4
Feats
Weapon focus (Jovar) combat expertise, blindfight
Improved critical (jovar)
Power critical (jovar)
Improved initiative

Samurai 1 Fighter 4 Kensai 4
Feats
Two weapon fighting, oversized two weapon fighting, weapon focus (bastard sword)
Combat expertise
Improved initiative.
Two weapon defense.

TWF is not the way to go if you're going for Kensai, unless you also want to drop a feat into an exotic WP in a double weapon (which is cool if you do,) as you only get one kensai weapon. Also, once you're into Kensai, keep going with it until you hit 10, otherwise at higher levels you'll look back and think "I wasted 4 levels on a PRC, and all I get for it is a +4 weapon"

What race are you planning on playing? Dwarf and Human are the two most iconic for fighter-types...

Master Thrower
2010-10-28, 03:26 PM
Ok realized two weapon fighting was bad. Was thinking double weapons. realized its still bad. I'm more focus on my unarmed kensai right now (unfortunatly dm doesnt allow multi arm shenanigans) my other build is more for fun but i might do anyways depending on what happens. Advice for either helps.


Human
Paladin of tyranny 4 monk 2 kensai 3

Feats
Weapon focus (unarmed strike) combat expertise.
Aesthetic Knight
Stunning fist (monk bonus feats)
Combat reflexes (monk bonus feats)
Improved initiative
Superior unarmed strikes

Fighter 1 Hex blade 4 Kensai 4
Feats
Weapon focus (Jovar) combat expertise, blindfight
Improved critical (jovar)
Power critical (jovar)
Improved initiative

My main problem is wether or not to take 1 or 2 levels of monk.
And yes i'm aware paladins of tyranny are in UA but my dm allows them.

jiriku
2010-10-28, 05:23 PM
Fighter 1 ranger 1 monk 4 kensai 3

Feats
Weapon focus (unarmed strike) combat expertise. Aesthetic hunter
Fists of iron
Improved initiative
Superior unarmed strikes

Fighter 1 Hex blade 4 Kensai 4
Feats
Weapon focus (Jovar) combat expertise, blindfight
Improved critical (jovar)
Power critical (jovar)
Improved initiative

Samurai 1 Fighter 4 Kensai 4
Feats
Two weapon fighting, oversized two weapon fighting, weapon focus (bastard sword)
Combat expertise
Improved initiative.
Two weapon defense.

You'll need a level of rouge to benefit from Aesthetic hunter.

Master Thrower
2010-10-28, 05:54 PM
You'll need a level of rouge to benefit from Aesthetic hunter.

Hunter is ranger. and i switched my builds anyways.

Urpriest
2010-10-28, 06:27 PM
Aesthetic Knight


That does not mean what you think it means...

On the other hand, it would at least make your character really pretty. Or possibly just an art snob.

Fawsto
2010-10-28, 06:39 PM
That does not mean what you think it means...

On the other hand, it would at least make your character really pretty. Or possibly just an art snob.


LOL. HARD TIME. CAN'T BREATH. HELP! LOL.


Don't go too far into critmonger. Your DM will start sending oozes and co. to fight you.

Master Thrower
2010-11-02, 09:38 PM
Well what would a good build then? using unarmed damaged? or what? As i'll be the groups primary melee fighter.
I was thinking maybe using a spiked chain and using the clouting property.

Myth
2010-11-03, 07:39 AM
Ok let's look at the situation. Kensai has entry requirements as follows:

Lawful alignment.
BAB +5
Concentration, Diplomacy, Ride - 5 ranks each.
Combat Expertise (13 int), Weapon Focus
And Oath of Service which is up to you and your DM.

Lawful is ok so long as you can get this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) variant approved. It's from UA but under the OGL.

Go for Cha, Con, and Str in that order, and of course 13 Int. For the race, don't go Human, you won't benefit from the skill as you are forced to get a minimum of 13 Int anyway to get Combat Expertise. Out of Core go with Gnome or if you can get them, either Strongheart Halfling (best for the feat), Whisper Gnome or Gold Dwarf. Dragonborn is good but cheesy from a RP perspective.

Paladin of Tyranny 1 Aura of evil, detect good, smite good 1/day, full bab
Paladin of Tyranny 2 Divine grace, deadly touch
Hexblade 1 - Hexblade's Curse 1/day
Hexblade 2 - Arcane Resistance
Hexblade 3 - Mettle
Up until now all skill prereqs for Kensai are class skills.

You are now free to go into Kensai witha Bab +5 and the prereq skills as class skills. Cha is used for Saves as well as Arcane Resistance and Mettle - those will make you practically immune to save or die or save or suck spells of equal level.

Pick up Imperious Command (if you can get it by your DM) or Goad for added control.

You can now go into Kensai and then get some Swashbuckler in as that helps with the Dervish prereqs.

Person_Man
2010-11-03, 09:02 AM
Suggestions:

1) Natural Weapons: A Kensai can enchant all of his natural weapons of one type. It's not that hard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7066595) to get 4+ tentacles or claws. If your DM allows it, play an anthropomorphic race (Savage Species), something with Wildshape, or be a Totemist and use Girillion Blessing and Lamia Belt. If he doesn't, then invest in feats and grafts as needed. This gives you 4+ high power/low cost magic weapons, instead of just one or two.

2) Optimize Concentration: It's not hard. Invest in the Skill fully, make sure your Constitution is high (a good idea for front liners anyway), buy a couple of magic items, take the Item Familiar or Steady Concentration feat if you feel that you must, and you're set. (There's also an awesome soulmeld that boosts it, but that's going overboard unless your DM allows natural weapons created by soulmelds for your Signature Weapon). If you do, you essentially get a +8 untyped bonus to Str and auto-pass Reflex Saves. You should also consider a Warblade entry, to get the most out of Diamond Mind maneuvers and stances, which also run off of Concentration. In particular, there's not much reason to take levels of Paladin of Tyranny, Hexblade, or Blackguard, because you can pass most Saves with your Withstand ability, Mind Over Body maneuver, and Moment of Perfect Mind maneuver.

3) Optimize Intimidate: You get a strong bonus to it, Fear is a very handy battlefield control option, and like all Skills it's pretty easy to optimize. Take Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark and the Never Outnumbered Skill Trick from Complete Scoundrel, and you're good to go.

4) Abuse your Instill ability: It allows you to transfer some or all of his Saves and/or BAB to a willing ally. Your Saves can safely be dumped because you make them using Concentration checks. Your BAB can be dumped because you have other things to do - Demoralize, use magic items, act as a damage sponge, whatever. If you’re feeling particularly cheesy, buy a Skillful weapon enhancement (Comp Arcane - I suggest putting it on an exotic weapon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526), since it also grants proficiency) to boost your BAB back up to 3/4 your character level.

5) Enchant your Signature Weapons intelligently: I like Spell Storing, Throwing/Returning (rocket claws!), Paralyzing (BoED), Vampiric (Unapproachable East), Valorous (Unapproachable East), but there are dozens of lists out there. Just avoid things that rely on critical hits (unreliable, since so many enemies are immune) and things that add static damage bonuses (laming, Shocking, etc).

Master Thrower
2010-11-03, 06:38 PM
my kensai using a fist build is this.

Human
Paladin of tyranny 5 monk 1 kensai 3

Feats
Weapon focus (unarmed strike) combat expertise.
Aesthetic Knight
Stunning fist (monk bonus feats)
Improved initiative
Improved natural attack.

I plan to use armor since i will be the frontline fighter.
My chain build looks like this

Human
Hexblade 2 Paladin of tyranny 3 kensai 4
1.Weapon focus (spiked chain) exotic weapon pro (spiked chain)
3. combat expertise.
6. Combat reflexes
9. Improved trip.

Myth
2010-11-04, 04:13 AM
I'm not sure you are aware that natural attack is not the same thing as unarmed strike.

Master Thrower
2010-11-04, 07:00 AM
I'm not sure you are aware that natural attack is not the same thing as unarmed strike.

Correct me if im wrong but isn't a fist a natural weapon?

Myth
2010-11-04, 09:54 AM
No. There are creatures with natural weapons that use their arms like Slam or a Claw attack. Other natural weapons are Bite, Talon, Tail slam etc.

Unarmed Strike is a Monk's weapon and it is not limited to arms. Snap Kick specifically adds a kick for example.

Unarmed and Natural attacks do not mix at all, that's been addressed in the WOTC FAQ.

I advise you to read the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) and then the FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/Main35FAQv06302008.zip). The FAQ especially has extensive explanations on how Unarmed Strike, Two Weapon Fighting, Natural Attacks, Flurry of Blows and Special Attacks mix together.

Tytalus
2010-11-04, 10:13 AM
I'm not sure you are aware that natural attack is not the same thing as unarmed strike.

That's not true. Also, the PHB itself is very clear about this issue: As stated on page 41, a monk’s unarmed strike “is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either” which includes feats such as Improved Natural Attack.

Master Thrower
2010-11-04, 03:01 PM
But would a spiked chain be better as a frontline fighter, as opposed to a fist combatant. im not sure what bonuses i'd put on my fists but a clouting chain, with a DC 21 fortitude save to avoid being pushed back, then make a dc 19 fortitude save to avoid being stunned for a round. (21 because of a a paladin of tyrannies aura which makes enemies recieve minus 2 on saves and check, so it is effectivly a DC 21.