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View Full Version : Pit Fiend vs Balor arena fight!



Myth
2010-10-27, 04:33 PM
You know which thread spawned this idea :smallsmile: So then the rules!

They are fighting in a 500 by 500 ft. arena with a 1 mile tall ceiling. Teleportation within the Arena is legal. Teleporting outside is equal to forfeiting.

Starting distance: 300 feet from each other, direct line of sight. Both are aware.

Knowledge: Assume that both parties know each other's abilities as if they could read the SRD. They also know the abilities of any allies the other side summons. They are played to their full capacity (Int included).
They are both bloodlusted and Diplomacy can't be used. Or if you'd rather, give a +1 virtual victory to the Balor for Diplomancy.

Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm) vs Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm) GO!

Runestar
2010-10-27, 04:41 PM
Balor can't over pit fiend's regeneration, so the latter should eventually win, especially with wish.

AslanCross
2010-10-27, 04:43 PM
Side comment. It's rather interesting to see that this thread is "173666."

More useful comments:

Pit Fiend
-Immune to most of the Balor's attacks. All it needs to worry about are the Balor's melee weapons, which do not breach its regeneration.
-Has higher SR than the Balor's.
-Apparently has a higher damage output on its claws than the Balor (It has higher Strength), and its attack routine is as robust as a dragon's (I was not aware of that!)

Balor
-Immune to the Pit Fiend's fire spells-like abilities and poison.
-Has more HP.
-Is more likely to hit with its main attacks, but due to its iteratives, its 3rd and 4th longsword attacks are far less likely to miss than the Pit Fiend's natural weapons.
-Can't really remember, but is Vorpal instantly fatal on creatures that have regeneration, presuming the weapon CANNOT breach regeneration? (ie, the Balor's longsword is neither good nor silver)

I think the Pit Fiend has a good chance of winning unless the Balor somehow knocks it unconscious. Regeneration is a nasty thing.

Boci
2010-10-27, 04:43 PM
Does the balor start with unholy aura active? Also how are we meant to handle summonings? The Fiendish Codex's stated that demons will wait for the last possible opertunity to summon where as devils will do it as soon as possible. Do we factor that in?

Myth
2010-10-27, 05:03 PM
No auras active, but the starting distance allows both parties to stare at each other and buff (if they can).

The creatures know they are in a cage fight and know what the other one can do. I should think they will play to the optimal power they have, and worry about surviving first and being humiliated second.

Wish is 1/year, so you can do a best of 3 or best of 5. BTW Implosion can insta-kill the Pit Fiend even with Regeneration right?

AslanCross
2010-10-27, 05:17 PM
No auras active, but the starting distance allows both parties to stare at each other and buff (if they can).

The creatures know they are in a cage fight and know what the other one can do. I should think they will play to the optimal power they have, and worry about surviving first and being humiliated second.

Wish is 1/year, so you can do a best of 3 or best of 5. BTW Implosion can insta-kill the Pit Fiend even with Regeneration right?

Implosion can insta-kill the Pit Fiend, yes, but the Balor has to bypass the Pit Fiend's SR (32; so it needs to roll at least a 12) and the Pit Fiend's save (The Pit Fiend only fails on an 8 or lower; if it has its Unholy Aura up it fails only on a 4 or lower). Hilariously enough, both of them have Power Word Stun as at-wills, so I envision them both trying to start by casting that.

KingMerv00
2010-10-27, 05:19 PM
Balor can't over pit fiend's regeneration, so the latter should eventually win...

Just so we are clear:



Regeneration

Creatures with this extraordinary ability recover from wounds quickly and can even regrow or reattach severed body parts. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage, and the creature automatically cures itself of nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the creature’s entry.

Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal damage to the creature normally; that sort of damage doesn’t convert to nonlethal damage and so doesn’t go away. The creature’s description includes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.

The balor can knock the pit fiend out and then CdG him for the win. Regeneration isn't an impossible barrier.

Boci
2010-10-27, 05:21 PM
Just so we are clear:



The balor can knock the pit fiend out and then CdG him for the win. Regeneration isn't an impossible barrier.

Last sentance: The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage. So actually it pretty much is, unless they can bring custome equipment.

KingMerv00
2010-10-27, 05:22 PM
*Snip*

-Can't really remember, but is Vorpal instantly fatal on creatures that have regeneration, presuming the weapon CANNOT breach regeneration? (ie, the Balor's longsword is neither good nor silver)

SRD says:



An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.

Guess not. The vorpal property is useless unless the weapon is both good and silvered.

KingMerv00
2010-10-27, 05:24 PM
Last sentance: The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage. So actually it pretty much is, unless they can bring custome equipment.

Ah, I misread.

In any event, I'd house rule that a KO is a victory. The balor could spend all day wailing on the corpse of the pit fiend if he wanted to.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-27, 05:26 PM
SRD says:



Guess not. The vorpal property is useless unless the weapon is both good and silvered.

I don't agree that is referring to damage. Vorpal cuts off the neck: nothing in Core is immune to that.

Boci
2010-10-27, 05:29 PM
I don't agree that is referring to damage. Vorpal cuts off the neck: nothing in Core is immune to that.

Well it says instant death, which vorpal generally is. Although hydras aren't.


Ah, I misread.

In any event, I'd house rule that a KO is a victory. The balor could spend all day wailing on the corpse of the pit fiend if he wanted to.

Actually he might be able to keep doing that until the pit fiend starves to death.

Keld Denar
2010-10-27, 05:32 PM
Anyone can do SRD Balor vs SRD Pit Fiend

What I'd like to see is two players who change around their feats a bit, especially using non-core sources, in a no-holds-barred, knockdown, drag out grudge match for undisputed master of the lower planes!


Well it says instant death, which vorpal generally is. Although hydras aren't.
Vorpal indicates that creatures that can survive without their heads will do so. Regeneration should let Pitty keep on keepin on even sans head.


Actually he might be able to keep doing that until the pit fiend starves to death.
Only Native Outsiders have to eat.

Zaydos
2010-10-27, 05:34 PM
I know in 3.0 regeneration could revive you from decapitation unless specified otherwise. Then again there's still the breathing dilemma which regeneration doesn't work against. Otherwise it can specifically regrow lost body parts and organs.

Also the Rules Compendium's use an Assassin's Death Attack as an example of an ability that can cause instant death but not work on regeneration creatures so take that as you wish.

Edit: To put it more clearly if the pit fiend could keep it headless long enough it suffocated it could win. Otherwise it can only win by Implosion and it will fall unconscious from fatigue while keeping a pit fiend unconscious for the 24 hours it needs to recover that. Course it could spam Dominate Monster while the Pit Fiend was unconscious.

Eldariel
2010-10-27, 05:39 PM
Regeneration doesn't matter; if Balor can knock Pit Fiend unconscious, it's elementary for it to Implode or Dominate or whatever the Pit Fiend eventually. Everything else matters tho.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-27, 05:41 PM
Anyone can do SRD Balor vs SRD Pit Fiend

What I'd like to see is two players who change around their feats a bit, especially using non-core sources, in a no-holds-barred, knockdown, drag out grudge match for undisputed master of the lower planes!


Vorpal indicates that creatures that can survive without their heads will do so. Regeneration should let Pitty keep on keepin on even sans head.

Only Native Outsiders have to eat.

If anyone is willing, I call dibs on the Pit Fiend!!!!!

Eldariel
2010-10-27, 05:42 PM
If anyone is willing, I call dibs on the Pit Fiend!!!!!

Hell, it's about damn time. I wouldn't mind taking the Balor.


Any equipment allowed? As per treasure? What about any terrain features? What manner of soil?

Starbuck_II
2010-10-27, 05:44 PM
I take the Summoned Balor (if Balor summons me). Can he have his normal WBL too? It would be NPC wealth, of course.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-27, 05:46 PM
What is the normal WBL for them? NPC? treasure value?

Claudius Maximus
2010-10-27, 05:50 PM
I might be interested in running it as a neutral DM.

Keld Denar
2010-10-27, 05:51 PM
Oh, I guess I was thinking of grabbing the Balor, but I do believe that Eldariel would do him justice.

Should we throw in a slush fund to get a little bit of item customization as well? I think both involved parties could have a bit of fun with oh....100,000g or so, especially considering that the pit fiend is essentially naked...

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-27, 05:52 PM
100k gp? sounds fair to me.

Now the thing is the summoning abilities, are we allowed to use them?

Squally!
2010-10-27, 06:00 PM
I'd assume you would be able to summon, but ionno, not like my opinion matters xD

Eldariel
2010-10-27, 06:03 PM
Meh. I view summons as an unnecesssary hazard. Balor vs. Pit Fiend is complex enough. 2 Balors vs. 2 Pit Fiends would just be stupid.

EDIT: And Pit Fiend can't even summon Pit Fiends. Yeah, that'd be stupid.

Zaydos
2010-10-27, 06:03 PM
Did the math on SRD melee between the two. Balor's only hope was Dominate Monster or Implosion.

That said comparing AC and attack modifiers:
The Pit Fiends 5 higher AC more than makes up for its 3 worse attack bonus compared to the balor's attack. In fact the balor will do best to drop its whip (can't hurt the pit fiend with it even on a critical hit) and just wail away with its sword two-handed (using the simple "average roll on 2d6" method its average damage is 4 per hit after DR, using a more accurate one that takes into account its exact probabilities of each hit would be too time consuming for me to dedicate to this; it would on average hit 1.4 times per round with .135 critical hits or a total of 8.7 damage per round).
The pit fiend on the other hand deals 7 damage per hit with its claws after DR, and 5 with its bite (and more if you include its other weapons which require an above average damage roll to hurt the balor) and hits 1.6 times per round with its claw and .7 times per round with bite, with .08 crits, gets .07 crits per round with wings, .035 more with bite and .035 more with tail (all crits deal damage on the simpler to obtain average and are therefore included) so 14.7 damage on average before crits, and 18.1 with crits.

The balor's only hope is Dominate or Implosion.
The pit fiend wins in melee. These numbers change a little bit when you include above average rolls (mostly improving for the pit fiend actually) and note PW Stun won't work on the pit fiend because it won't take lethal damage. On the other hand after 8 rounds the pit fiend can start slinging PW Stun around.

Eldariel
2010-10-27, 06:06 PM
Did the math on SRD melee between the two. Balor's only hope was Dominate Monster or Implosion.

Uhm. You kinda forgot about the SLAs. And the fact that PW: Stun has SR and thus...is a wee risky. There's no way a fight between a Balor and a Pit Fiend would be a slugfest. Full attacks...seem highly unlikely.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-27, 06:08 PM
Meh. I view summons as an unnecesssary hazard. Balor vs. Pit Fiend is complex enough. 2 Balors vs. 2 Pit Fiends would just be stupid.

EDIT: And Pit Fiend can't even summon Pit Fiends. Yeah, that'd be stupid.

:smallannoyed: hey no fair, I was just going to correct you....:smalltongue:


Ok, I'll start tweaking my pit fiend.

Just to be clear

we've got 100 k GP for gear-mancy.
We can't use the summon devil/demon ability
All sources open to tweak the feat selection of the outsiders

That's all?

Keld Denar
2010-10-27, 06:09 PM
I think it would be fair to impose the Test of Spite ruleset on this one, namedly things like banning Candles of Invocation, excessive action economy abuse, anything on the Campaign Smashers list, etc...

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-27, 06:10 PM
Does anyone have a link handy? I can't find it.... (knew I should just have bookmarked it)

Eldariel
2010-10-27, 06:12 PM
If we rebuild the feats, I suggest we build them in Core. More true to the "SRD X vs Y" feel then :smallwink: Besides, monsters have plenty o' options outta Core already.

EDIT: The latest (IIRC) Test of Spite Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150821)

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-27, 06:14 PM
Fair enough.... I would have like to have Brand of Hells (Bel) but meh... I think I can work with it.

Eldariel
2010-10-27, 06:17 PM
Fair enough.... I would have like to have Brand of Hells (Bel) but meh... I think I can work with it.

Oh sure, I'm up for an no-holds-barred all source match too if you feel that'd be more interesting.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-27, 06:20 PM
To be honest, SRD only is better for me, right now I don't have the time to pour over my splats, I only stumbled upon Mark of Hell, cause I immediatly thought that FC II would have nice stuff.

But for now a SRD only is perfect, maybe another day we can do a more interesting fight.

Incidentally, a few months ago in the Looking for Players subforum, there was a Monster Arena, based on CR, might be interesting to resurect that idea, after we compare this.

Zaydos
2010-10-27, 06:21 PM
Uhm. You kinda forgot about the SLAs. And the fact that PW: Stun has SR and thus...is a wee risky. There's no way a fight between a Balor and a Pit Fiend would be a slugfest. Full attacks...seem highly unlikely.

Actually it would be if they were straight from the MM. Or more properly it would be:
Balor: Either get into range for Implosion or Unholy Aura
Pit Fiend: Unholy Aura to ward against Dominate Monster.

And then Balor's try to kill the Pit Fiend with Implosion (13.5% chance of success); after which point neither can hurt the other except via slug-fest.

Edit: Actually the Pit Fiend also would start slinging around PW Stun after dealing 190+ damage (so with Unholy Aura up on each creature, about 19 rounds) with a 70% chance of stunning the pit fiend for 5 rounds. During this time the Balor would have dealt an average of 19 damage to the pit fiend.

Of course the balor could summon a second balor to help it which would give it a chance. Is their a time limit to how long their summons stay around (I know it used to be 1 hour, but I don't remember which edition that was).

Keld Denar
2010-10-27, 06:24 PM
Blah, core only. How many times can you take Ability Focus: Implosion? Thats lame.

I wanna see Pit Fiends with Shape Soulmeld and Balors with Martial Study!

Eldariel
2010-10-27, 06:28 PM
Blah, core only. How many times can you take Ability Focus: Implosion? Thats lame.

I wanna see Pit Fiends with Shape Soulmeld and Balors with Martial Study!

Well, all it'd mean would be we'd be firing Supernatural Transformation'd SLAs at each other making them Super Effective.

Zaydos
2010-10-27, 06:29 PM
Blah, core only. How many times can you take Ability Focus: Implosion?

Once, and the Pit Fiend takes Great Fortitude so it doesn't even matter (they're both down one feat). The balor could take Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration to up its chance of winning via Implosion to 19.5%.

Of course once you throw gear into the mix everything changes.

Also I didn't include optimal levels of PA which would actually be fairly high in this case.


Well, all it'd mean would be we'd be firing Supernatural Transformation'd SLAs at each other making them Super Effective.

Maybe on Insanity, and Implosion for the balor, and Power Word Stun on the pit fiend.

Also my MM has a misprint for balor damage which actually would make a large difference and give it a chance in a slug fest. Brings balor's damage up to 16.4/round (or 11.4 after regen) so it could take down the pit fiend given 21.5 rounds (longer with Unholy Aura ~25 rounds with Unholy Aura). Of course the pit fiend could just start using Power Word Stun after 10 rounds and still stun the balor for an average of slightly longer than not and whittle it down.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-27, 06:35 PM
Once, and the Pit Fiend takes Great Fortitude so it doesn't even matter (they're both down one feat). The balor could take Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration to up its chance of winning via Implosion to 19.5%.

Of course once you throw gear into the mix everything changes.

Also I didn't include optimal levels of PA which would actually be fairly high in this case.



Maybe on Insanity, and Implosion for the balor, and Power Word Stun on the pit fiend.

Also my MM has a misprint for balor damage which actually would make a large difference and give it a chance in a slug fest.

I'll assume, we are restricted to SRD only for gear

BenTheJester
2010-10-27, 06:59 PM
Fair enough.... I would have like to have Brand of Hells (Bel) but meh... I think I can work with it.

Forget Mark of Avernus.

Go for the win with Mark of Nessus.

Every enemy has to roll a Will save against a DC of (10+½HD+cha) to take ANY action against. And that is every round until it succeeds the roll.

I have no idea why this feat is almost never mentioned, it is so sweetly awesome.


And if you remove summoning, it gives the Pit Fiend an advantage. If you make it a 3 out of 5, the Pit Fiend is really at a disadvantage.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-27, 07:06 PM
Forget Mark of Avernus.

Go for the win with Mark of Nessus.

Every enemy has to roll a Will save against a DC of (10+½HD+cha) to take ANY action against. And that is every round until it succeeds the roll.

I have no idea why this feat is almost never mentioned, it is so sweetly awesome.


And if you remove summoning, it gives the Pit Fiend an advantage. If you make it a 3 out of 5, the Pit Fiend is really at a disadvantage.

Sorry, everyone but I have to go...(sometimes I hate being a student) I can't finish tweaking my pit fiend, sorry Eldariel.

Zaydos
2010-10-27, 07:11 PM
Forget Mark of Avernus.

Go for the win with Mark of Nessus.

Every enemy has to roll a Will save against a DC of (10+½HD+cha) to take ANY action against. And that is every round until it succeeds the roll.

I have no idea why this feat is almost never mentioned, it is so sweetly awesome.


And if you remove summoning, it gives the Pit Fiend an advantage. If you make it a 3 out of 5, the Pit Fiend is really at a disadvantage.

Would it be 3 out of 5 in the same day? Because if so the Pit Fiend only has to worry about Insanity since Implosion can only be used 1/day.

If dailies refresh then the balor can use Implosion once per battle and has a better chance.

Of course gear can change it.

Also: the balor makes the Will save on an 8 versus Mark of Nessus and costs 2 feats. Meanwhile the Brand of the Nine Hells (Bel) costs one feat and deals 21.5 damage per hit to the balor and I'm not sure if it is masterwork (if it is +.15 hits per round) and it hits (assuming Unholy Aura) 1.7 times per round and gets .1675 crits per round for a good damage increase. It's a much better choice in this scenario especially if it can be enchanted.

Eldariel
2010-10-27, 07:53 PM
I'll assume, we are restricted to SRD only for gear

Yeah; obviously no Dust, Candle of Invocation or other stupidity. And it's fine, let's get our monsters done in few days and see what we can do about this friendly little bout.

Keld Denar
2010-10-27, 08:00 PM
Boo, you guys are totally not fun. Shape Soulmeld + Open Lesser Chakra(Hands) to bind Sphinx Claws for pounce for the Pit Fiend would have been totally awesome...

Tshern
2010-10-27, 08:10 PM
Could the Pit Fiend Wish the Balor to death? It would, naturally, force a save, but still.

Boci
2010-10-27, 08:18 PM
Boo, you guys are totally not fun. Shape Soulmeld + Open Lesser Chakra(Hands) to bind Sphinx Claws for pounce for the Pit Fiend would have been totally awesome...

That is pretty awesome. However, not (IMO) as awesome as the balor round house kicking the pit fiiend into the arena wall via soaring throw.

Eldariel
2010-10-27, 08:35 PM
Could the Pit Fiend Wish the Balor to death? It would, naturally, force a save, but still.

I think there are more efficient ways to use Wish. I mean, yeah, you could just replicate Finger of Death and get a 9th level save DC spell but rolling against both, SR and then giving the opponent save just seems subpar. However, indirect uses of the Wish have to penetrate neither and I'm pretty sure quite a few could be quite harmful.

Runestar
2010-10-28, 05:43 AM
Gear would make both sides untouchable by melee attacks. Monk's belt already lets both apply their wis mod+1 to AC, cloaks of resistance would raise their saves till they fail only on a 1. Throw in armour and their ACs would easily hit 60+.

Let's see...what 8th lv "I win" spells can the pit fiend replicate via wish?

Eldan
2010-10-28, 07:00 AM
Hmm.

If you can't work around regeneration normally, can you dry drowning or suffocating the Pit Fiend? That should be viable, if you can somehow get enough liquid.

Edit: if you have equipment, a decanter of endless water should help.

AslanCross
2010-10-28, 07:41 AM
Hmm.

If you can't work around regeneration normally, can you dry drowning or suffocating the Pit Fiend? That should be viable, if you can somehow get enough liquid.

Edit: if you have equipment, a decanter of endless water should help.

It has Teleport at-will. You're going to need to Forcecage it first.

Eldan
2010-10-28, 07:45 AM
Not if it's unconcious. I'd have to re-read the rules, but wouldn't drowning keep it unconcious?

Edit:
It heals 5 damage per round.
The Pit fiend can hold it's breath for 54 rounds, then has to make DC 10 constitution checks, with the DC increasing by 1 every round. It's modifier is +8, so it will certainly fail the check after more than another 19 rounds, then dies after another 3.

So you have to beat it so much, it has to be low enough to need more than 76 rounds to recuperate. Make it 80 for safety, or below -400 HP.
That ain't going to be easy.

Runestar
2010-10-28, 07:50 AM
It has Teleport at-will. You're going to need to Forcecage it first.

Forcecage won't block teleport, since teleport is essentially instantaneous travel through the astral place, and force effects don't extend there.

Would die-hard help the pit-fiend here? Allows him to still be conscious at -1hp (from drowning), which in turn allows him to teleport away?

Eldariel
2010-10-28, 08:22 AM
Forcecage won't block teleport, since teleport is essentially instantaneous travel through the astral place, and force effects don't extend there.

Would die-hard help the pit-fiend here? Allows him to still be conscious at -1hp (from drowning), which in turn allows him to teleport away?

Forcecage+Dimension Lock works. That's the minimum. It's kinda sad these big bad demons can't rid themselves of force walls tho. But I guess they can area dispel the Dimension Lock so it's fine.

AslanCross
2010-10-28, 09:12 AM
Forcecage won't block teleport, since teleport is essentially instantaneous travel through the astral place, and force effects don't extend there.

Would die-hard help the pit-fiend here? Allows him to still be conscious at -1hp (from drowning), which in turn allows him to teleport away?

Hmm, for some reason I thought it was impossible to teleport out of.

Not so sure about Die-Hard though. Due to the ambiguous wording of the drowning rule, the Pit Fiend would be "at -1 HP" AND "dying."

Myth
2010-10-28, 09:38 AM
Gear would make both sides untouchable by melee attacks. Monk's belt already lets both apply their wis mod+1 to AC, cloaks of resistance would raise their saves till they fail only on a 1. Throw in armour and their ACs would easily hit 60+.

Let's see...what 8th lv "I win" spells can the pit fiend replicate via wish?

That would be Irresistible Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibledance.htm) mah boi.


I was actually interested in RAW Pit fiend vs RAW Balor. I wanted then to see them both vs a single RAW Solar.

But i could also see your pimped out monsters duke it out, then throw another gauntlet. Someone take a Solar, pimp it via the same rules and run it. The Demon and Devil vs the Angel. But Solars have such uber spells and SLAs that it still won't be much of a contest IMO.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-28, 09:42 AM
That would be Irresistible Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibledance.htm) mah boi.


I was actually interested in RAW Pit fiend vs RAW Balor. I wanted then to see them both vs a single RAW Solar.

But i could also see your pimped out monsters duke it out, then throw another gauntlet. Someone take a Solar, pimp it via the same rules and run it. The Demon and Devil vs the Angel. But Solars have such uber spells and SLAs that it still won't be much of a contest IMO.

Yet is CR 16 :smallsigh:

Eldariel
2010-10-28, 09:43 AM
That would be Irresistible Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibledance.htm) mah boi.


I was actually interested in RAW Pit fiend vs RAW Balor. I wanted then to see them both vs a single RAW Solar.

But i could also see your pimped out monsters duke it out, then throw another gauntlet. Someone take a Solar, pimp it via the same rules and run it. The Demon and Devil vs the Angel. But Solars have such uber spells and SLAs that it still won't be much of a contest IMO.

With full divine, and decent access to arcane casting, yeah, it's not close. Solar just malhandles them both, bad. 2v1 could be interesting but it still wouldn't really be that interesting. Only ability on par with Solar's arsenal they have is Balor's Summon and Pit Fiend's Wish.

Myth
2010-10-28, 11:17 AM
Yet is CR 16 :smallsigh:

More like CR23 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm).

It has Regeneration Epic/Evil, CL20 Wish as a SLA 1/day along with a metric ton of power words and other SLAs, a bunch of detect and true sight spells always active and reactivated as free actions, and Cleric 20 casting with Miracle.

It will handle Balor + summoned Balor + Pit Fiend + summoned whatevers pretty easily.

AslanCross
2010-10-28, 05:22 PM
Yet is CR 16 :smallsigh:

That's the Planetar, which is also pretty strong for a CR 16 monster (it has 17th-level cleric casting).

Tvtyrant
2010-10-28, 05:48 PM
That would be Irresistible Dance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/irresistibledance.htm) mah boi.


I was actually interested in RAW Pit fiend vs RAW Balor. I wanted then to see them both vs a single RAW Solar.

But i could also see your pimped out monsters duke it out, then throw another gauntlet. Someone take a Solar, pimp it via the same rules and run it. The Demon and Devil vs the Angel. But Solars have such uber spells and SLAs that it still won't be much of a contest IMO.

this has been done before on another forum. The Epic damage reduction makes the Solar victor.

Tshern
2010-10-28, 07:17 PM
I think there are more efficient ways to use Wish. I mean, yeah, you could just replicate Finger of Death and get a 9th level save DC spell but rolling against both, SR and then giving the opponent save just seems subpar. However, indirect uses of the Wish have to penetrate neither and I'm pretty sure quite a few could be quite harmful.
I'd love to see the Pit fiend hitting a Draconic polymorph and then stomp the Balor to death.

Zaydos
2010-10-28, 07:25 PM
I'd love to see the Pit fiend hitting a Draconic polymorph and then stomp the Balor to death.

The hit die limit on Draconic Polymorph is rather killer. The fact that the pit fiend keeps his DR at 15/good (the silver component is Ex and lost) while polymorphed helps, but seems unlikely to be enough unless a really good 15 HD creature can be found. Would need truly tremendous strength (the pit fiend has a +12 bonus, it would need a +9 to be stronger after polymorph and unless that came with an awesome full attack routine). Losing Regen would hurt (-5 hp/round, vulnerable to Power Word Stun), though it does retain its Disease ability (:smalleek:).

Actually a better use of Wish on the Pit Fiend would be to copy Mind Blank and become immune to Insanity and Dominate Monster leaving the Balor with just Implosion. Of course the Balor has a higher CL and Greater Dispel Magic at will so that wouldn't help much either.

Edit: Antimagic Field might be a good choice on the pit fiend; but the balor would probably just run out and use teleport to stay more than 120-ft away from the Pit Fiend at all time.

Could Wish be used to envelop the arena in anti-magic?

Soren Hero
2010-10-28, 11:20 PM
would the Pit Fiend using its wish to cast simulacrum on itself be considered game-breaking?

Myth
2010-10-29, 02:32 AM
Remember that Wish is 1/year. Do a best of 5 and see who is the winner.

faceroll
2010-10-29, 02:32 AM
would the Pit Fiend using its wish to cast simulacrum on itself be considered game-breaking?

Yes, but I think you've discovered the definitive winner.

Tshern
2010-10-29, 05:00 AM
The hit die limit on Draconic Polymorph is rather killer. The fact that the pit fiend keeps his DR at 15/good (the silver component is Ex and lost) while polymorphed helps, but seems unlikely to be enough unless a really good 15 HD creature can be found. Would need truly tremendous strength (the pit fiend has a +12 bonus, it would need a +9 to be stronger after polymorph and unless that came with an awesome full attack routine). Losing Regen would hurt (-5 hp/round, vulnerable to Power Word Stun), though it does retain its Disease ability (:smalleek:)
Draconic polymorph caps at 20 HD. Or, in based on the CL of the Pit Fiend, at 18 HD.

Runestar
2010-10-29, 06:59 AM
Remember that Wish is 1/year. Do a best of 5 and see who is the winner.

Have the pit fiend wish for a ring of infinite wishes? :smalltongue: