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molten_dragon
2010-10-27, 08:09 PM
I'm far from the first to do it, but I decided that 3.5 had way too many skills, and they needed consolidated. Below is my explanation of how I did so. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.

Skills
Acrobatics (DEX) - combines balance, escape artist, and tumble
Athletics (STR) - Combines climb, jump, and swim
Concentration (CON) - unchanged
Craft (INT) - The use of craft itself is unchanged, however, the craft skills are broken up in a way that makes more sense. For example, you could take craft (metalworking) and be able to create metal armor, weapons, and other devices. I'm thinking we would have craft skills for metal, stone, wood, leather/cloth, and others if you can think of ones that would make sense. Craft also includes the functionality of the skills appraise and knowledge (architecture and engineering) with respect to the material you know how to craft. So someone with craft (stonework) would be able to determine the value of a stone statue, or point out weak points on a stone bridge.
Handle animal (CHA) - combines handle animal and ride
Knowledge Arcana (INT) - combines knowledge arcana and spellcraft
Knowledge dungeoneering (INT) - unchanged
Knowledge local (INT) - combines knowledge history, knowledge local, and knowledge nobility and royalty. Must be taken for a specific area
Knowledge nature (INT) - combines knowledge nature and knowledge geography
Knowledge religion (INT) - unchanged
Knowledge the planes (INT) - unchanged
Linguistics (INT) - combines decipher script and forgery
Mechanics (DEX) - combines open lock, disable device, and use rope
Negotiation (CHA) - combines bluff, diplomacy, gather information, intimidate, and sense motive
Profession (WIS) - unchanged
Perception (WIS) - combines listen, search, and spot
Perform (CHA) - unchanged
Stealth (DEX) - combines hide, move silently, sleight of hand, and disguise
Survival (WIS) - combines survival and heal
Use magic device (CHA) - unchanged

There's a couple things I'm a bit concerned about, and maybe you have some suggestions to improve them.

Use rope doesn't exactly make sense in mechanics, but it was too crappy to leave on its own. Any better suggestions on what to combine it with?

Negotiation combines a lot of stuff, maybe too much. I had considered pulling bluff out, and pulling disguise out of stealth, to make a deception skill. Thoughts?

Some of the uses of ride don't make a lot of sense being based on CHA, but then again some do, and none of handle animal really makes sense based on dex, any ideas?

So what do you think?

Squally!
2010-10-27, 08:17 PM
Use rope doesn't exactly make sense in mechanics, but it was too crappy to leave on its own. Any better suggestions on what to combine it with?

Negotiation combines a lot of stuff, maybe too much. I had considered pulling bluff out, and pulling disguise out of stealth, to make a deception skill. Thoughts?


Id drop use rope into survival.

id take bluff and disguise and make a separate skill.

also, ionno if this is the correct forum! :P

Otherworld Odd
2010-10-27, 08:18 PM
Just use Pathfinder skills. I think they compacted the skills quite nicely.

Gan The Grey
2010-10-27, 08:37 PM
I've been using custom skill tricks to allow characters in my E6 game who want to do extra things with consolidated skills more options without trivializing specialists. Craft(Blacksmith) allows one to perform general blacksmith duties.

Skill Trick - Weapon Smith. Requirement - 4 Ranks Craft(Blacksmith).
Allows a character to forge weapons using their Craft(Blacksmith) skill.

Skill Trick - Armor Smith. Requirement - 4 Ranks Craft(Blacksmith).
Allows a character to forge armor using their Craft(Blacksmith) skill.

Characters with both skill tricks gain a +1 untyped bonus to Craft(Blacksmith) checks.

I also combined Disable Device and Open Locks into one skill.

Skill Trick - Lockpicker. Requirement - 4 Ranks Disable Device.
Allows a character to pick locks using their Disable Device skill.

Along with various other skill changes...

Trundlebug
2010-10-27, 08:44 PM
Stealth to me should just be Hide/Move. Sleight of Hand is a different type of (manual) dexterity than body/environmental awareness.

Deception; Sleight and Disguise

Survival; Survival and Use Rope. Heal on it's own.

Negotiations is a little loaded. Split it maybe? Bluff/Intimi as one, Gather and Sense as another? Maybe call Bluff/Intimi Manipulation? Coming up blank for a name with Gather/Sense.

I like the rolled in Local but taken separately for different locales.

Just my coupla coins.


I've been using custom skill tricks to allow characters in my E6 game who want to do extra things with consolidated skills more options without trivializing specialists. Craft(Blacksmith) allows one to perform general blacksmith duties.

Skill Trick - Weapon Smith. Requirement - 4 Ranks Craft(Blacksmith).
Allows a character to forge weapons using their Craft(Blacksmith) skill.

Skill Trick - Armor Smith. Requirement - 4 Ranks Craft(Blacksmith).
Allows a character to forge armor using their Craft(Blacksmith) skill.

Characters with both skill tricks gain a +1 untyped bonus to Craft(Blacksmith) checks.

I also combined Disable Device and Open Locks into one skill.

Skill Trick - Lockpicker. Requirement - 4 Ranks Disable Device.
Allows a character to pick locks using their Disable Device skill.

Along with various other skill changes...

Hmmm, interesting.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-27, 08:47 PM
Craft (INT) - The use of craft itself is unchanged, however, the craft skills are broken up in a way that makes more sense. For example, you could take craft (metalworking) and be able to create metal armor, weapons, and other devices. I'm thinking we would have craft skills for metal, stone, wood, leather/cloth, and others if you can think of ones that would make sense. Craft also includes the functionality of the skills appraise and knowledge (architecture and engineering) with respect to the material you know how to craft. So someone with craft (stonework) would be able to determine the value of a stone statue, or point out weak points on a stone bridge.

I do pretty much the same thing regarding craft in my own revised skill system, but also make it half-price. 2 ranks for 1 point. Craft is practically flavor text, really... an untrained caster can usually make a masterwork item without any ranks.

The rest of the combinations I can't really agree with... they don't make any sense to me. My own complete skill rewrite looks completely different.

For example, why not put Escape Artist with Sleight of Hand? Getting out of handcuffs and such is a trademark of the prestidigitator.

Why does a Linguist get forgery? Wouldn't it be more appropriate for an undercover agent trying to Disguise their identity?

Stealth and Negotiation should definitely not be so packed in. Most of those skills are good on their own, and further combining all the social skills into negotiation thoroughly exacerbates the "one party face" issue. Encourage players to specialize in different social skills, such as one with Intimidate and the other with Diplomacy and playing good cop/bad cop for social encounters where the group can feel a greater need to participate. IMHO this one is just terrible.

As for Spellcraft, I would actually split its function up into various skills. Knowledge: Religion identifies divine magic. Knowledge: Arcana identifies arcane magic. Knowledge: Psionics identifies psionic powers. You might consider having these skills work on other kinds of abilities at a penalty, possibly the same penalty you get for identifying spells cast by people with the esoteric magic feat from Secrets of Xen'drik. This is pretty much just a matter of taste. *Shrug*

I have no idea why Use Rope is thrown in with Open Lock, or why Profession is conspicuously unmodified and thus pretty much a background-story tax on your skill points even more egregious than it was before.

And so on and so forth.

You can't just throw together skills randomly, you have to think about what kind of character archetypes you're supporting and how this will affect gameplay, teamwork, etc.

Likewise, you should establish how these interact with existing mechanics that augment skills other than ranks.


Just use Pathfinder skills. I think they compacted the skills quite nicely.

Eh, I couldn't continue to follow Pathfinder after I saw them severely nerf the Dodge feat, let alone other things.


I've been using custom skill tricks to allow characters in my E6 game who want to do extra things with consolidated skills more options without trivializing specialists. Craft(Blacksmith) allows one to perform general blacksmith duties.

Skill Trick - Weapon Smith. Requirement - 4 Ranks Craft(Blacksmith).
Allows a character to forge weapons using their Craft(Blacksmith) skill.

Skill Trick - Armor Smith. Requirement - 4 Ranks Craft(Blacksmith).
Allows a character to forge armor using their Craft(Blacksmith) skill.

Characters with both skill tricks gain a +1 untyped bonus to Craft(Blacksmith) checks.

I also combined Disable Device and Open Locks into one skill.

Skill Trick - Lockpicker. Requirement - 4 Ranks Disable Device.
Allows a character to pick locks using their Disable Device skill.

Along with various other skill changes...

Skill tricks is a decent way of going about it if you're wary about, for example, not creating a situation where every athlete out in the desert would be a great swimmer.

Otherworld Odd
2010-10-27, 09:13 PM
Eh, I couldn't continue to follow Pathfinder after I saw them severely nerf the Dodge feat, let alone other things.


I was just saying use their skill systems. All of it is pretty concise and to the point. It seems like that's what he's trying to do here.

And how did they nerf Dodge? I think they buffed it. =/. It's a +1 to AC rather than just a +1 to one enemy of your choice.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-27, 09:53 PM
I was just saying use their skill systems. All of it is pretty concise and to the point. It seems like that's what he's trying to do here.

And how did they nerf Dodge? I think they buffed it. =/. It's a +1 to AC rather than just a +1 to one enemy of your choice.

In the beta they made it require a swift action, instead of no action at all.

Dunno if they ever changed it back. I haven't picked up the actual books yet. I probably will eventually though.

Liked the art, though. Very nice art. I particularly liked the iconic cleric.

bloodtide
2010-10-27, 10:14 PM
I just don't get the reason for combining skills. What is the reason? Is this just the metagame reason to give character's more skill points(without, oddly, not just giving them more skill points).

I just don't get the logic.

Not everyone who is good at athletics can climb, jump and swim with equal skill.

Same way knowing about healing does not make you and equal at survival.(I doubt the average doctor could track game, skin a deer or such. And while your average 'survivorman' can do first aid, they can't do surgery.)

And perception is the worse. Not everyone with good senses, has equal sight and hearing. It make sense to me for spot to be separate from listen. They are not the same skill(some people that can hear a pin drop, can't see five feet in front of them).


And how do the skills work with creatures? So now all creatures have equal spot/listen? Looks odd, something like an eagle has good hearing? And things like beholders can hear as good as they can see(they have ten ears stalks too?)

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-27, 10:25 PM
I just don't get the reason for combining skills. What is the reason?
The skill system could use some improvement from a game design perspective, and reorganizing the way skill points are distributed can help that.


Is this just the metagame reason to give character's more skill points No. I'm not exactly sure what your understanding of the word "metagame reason" here is.


(without, oddly, not just giving them more skill points). Consolidation can work out more cleanly than simply granting more skill points, helping to balance out less attractive choices and create a more cohesive whole. Done right, it can polish up the system some while expanding conceptual space, facilitating more diverse character concepts, balancing out the worth of the skills themselves (compare: Forgery v. UMD), and shifting gameplay and teamwork methods around, while not shoehorning people into odd combinations.

That said, I think the OP's system does not do it right.


Not everyone who is good at athletics can climb, jump and swim with equal skill. By the same logic, you could split up other skills. For example, imagine if Heal was 5 different skills, for different types of medical practitioners. Really, all you're doing here is supporting the status quo because it is the status quo.

Otherworld Odd
2010-10-27, 10:26 PM
In the beta they made it require a swift action, instead of no action at all.

Dunno if they ever changed it back. I haven't picked up the actual books yet. I probably will eventually though.

Liked the art, though. Very nice art. I particularly liked the iconic cleric.

Oh, yeah. They changed it. It's just a static +1 to AC now.

Gan The Grey
2010-10-28, 12:36 AM
Really, combining a bunch of skills isn't SO bad. Just make it to where, for instance, having points in Athletics simply makes you a general practitioner. Maybe you could only accomplish physical feats with a DC up to, I don't know, 10. Then, all DC's above 10 are increased by 5.

Then you could create skill tricks for Climb, Jump, and Swim. Taking these basically makes you a specialist, and allows you to treat the DC's as normal.

For the Heal example from before, you could do the exact same thing, but maybe increase the skill trick cost by 1 each time you specialize. Ooo...I kinda like that.

NOTE: This is only an example. I haven't really thought this through to see if the actual numbers I've posted will make sense. Don't hurt me please. :smallbiggrin:

Coidzor
2010-10-28, 01:00 AM
Food for thought, basically.

Bluff + Disguise = Subterfuge. Possibly with Forgery put in there as well.

Bluff + Intimidate = Manipulation

Sense Motive + Diplomacy = Negotiation

Gather Information possibly being rolled in with Knowledge Local.

Heal by itself but with synergy bonuses from whatever appropriate knowledge skills would apply to the creature being targeted by it. Allow it to be treated as a Profession skill as well.

Fold Use Rope in with Survival rather than in Mechanics which would just be Open Lock and Disable Device.



Knowledge local (INT) - combines knowledge history, knowledge local, and knowledge nobility and royalty. Must be taken for a specific area

This right here discourages players from putting ranks into the skill unless you're staying in one or two areas throughout the campaign or they're allowed some manner of retraining their skill points to switch the focus of the knowledge local skill ranks spent.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-28, 04:36 AM
Bluff + Disguise = Subterfuge. Possibly with Forgery put in there as well.

OR Bluff + Intimidate = Manipulation

Sense Motive + Diplomacy = Negotiation

Gather Information possibly being rolled in with Knowledge Local.

Heal by itself but with synergy bonuses from whatever appropriate knowledge skills would apply to the creature being targeted by it. Allow it to be treated as a Profession skill as well.

Fold Use Rope in with Survival rather than in Mechanics which would just be Open Lock and Disable Device.



This right here discourages players from putting ranks into the skill unless you're staying in one or two areas throughout the campaign or allow them to switch the focus of the knowledge local skill ranks spent.

I'd throw gather info in with diplomacy, and possibly sense motive... but sense motive, if you know all of its uses, can be the best skill in the game.

Coidzor
2010-10-28, 04:43 AM
I'd throw gather info in with diplomacy, and possibly sense motive... but sense motive, if you know all of its uses, can be the best skill in the game.

Hmm? How so?

molten_dragon
2010-10-28, 05:32 AM
I just don't get the reason for combining skills. What is the reason? Is this just the metagame reason to give character's more skill points(without, oddly, not just giving them more skill points).

I just don't get the logic.

Not everyone who is good at athletics can climb, jump and swim with equal skill.

Same way knowing about healing does not make you and equal at survival.(I doubt the average doctor could track game, skin a deer or such. And while your average 'survivorman' can do first aid, they can't do surgery.)

And perception is the worse. Not everyone with good senses, has equal sight and hearing. It make sense to me for spot to be separate from listen. They are not the same skill(some people that can hear a pin drop, can't see five feet in front of them).


And how do the skills work with creatures? So now all creatures have equal spot/listen? Looks odd, something like an eagle has good hearing? And things like beholders can hear as good as they can see(they have ten ears stalks too?)

I put them together for a couple of reasons. One being that there are way too many skills in the game, so it's impossible for even a character like a rogue or factotum who is meant to be very skilled to pick up more than maybe a quarter or a third at most of them and actually be good at them. The other is that there are some skills that really aren't all that useful, and don't really justify putting ranks into them, so I tried to combine those skills with others so that all of the combined skills are more useful.


You can't just throw together skills randomly, you have to think about what kind of character archetypes you're supporting and how this will affect gameplay, teamwork, etc.

I didn't just throw them together randomly, I tried to think about what made sense to put together from both a gameplay and a logical standpoint. You may not agree with how I put them together, and I appreciate your feedback, but that doesn't mean that I just lumped them together randomly.


Just use Pathfinder skills. I think they compacted the skills quite nicely.

I thought about it, but pathfinder doesn't combine them enough in my opinion.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-28, 12:22 PM
You can do the same thing I did with Spellcraft for other skills. For example, consider Use Rope. You may use ropes for different purposes entirely, ranging from sailing to binding prisoners to throwing a grappling hook to making a proper noose to hang people.

Just make Use Rope cease to exist. It is a tool related to other skills, not a skill in itself. You can use a rope to bind someone with sleight of hand / escape artist. You can throw a grappling hook with Athletics for the same reason you use pitons and stuff with a climb check. Or whatever.

I also did this for some of the knowledge skills. For example, Knowledge Arcana would tell you about the Inner Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, elementals, and arcane magic related to the planes. Knowledge Religion would cover the Outer Planes, outsiders, and divine magic related to the planes. Because I thought priests should know a thing or two about heaven, hell, angels, and demons. But hey, maybe that's just me. And then high levels of Survival would tell you how to survive on the other planes.

You don't necessarily have to stick skill X entirely into other skill Y. Splitting things up can sometimes produce a smoother result.

Profession should, on general principle, cease to exist (or at least, not in its current form). Saying that your character can make a living as a cook is more flavor text than anything else and shouldn't compete with real skills like Use Magic Device for your points. That's like taxing people for roleplaying, and it's important to realize that taxes provide behavioral incentives. If someone realizes that they're going to give up Concentration in order to be a master chef, even if they're the kind of person who wouldn't think twice about making such a sacrifice for flavor, you're basically punishing them for being that kind of person. If you don't want to get rid of it entirely, you could make it like Speak Language. That is, you spend one point, you become competent in a profession.

It's also worth noting that I kept the checks (mostly) separate. Consider the example of Use Magic Device, a potent skill that you should absolutely not combine with anything else. Many of the skill boosters for it only boost checks to use scrolls. You can do the same thing for combined skills. The Jump spell wouldn't give you a bonus to Athletics, but merely a bonus to Athletics checks made to Jump.

thompur
2010-10-28, 01:39 PM
I like to give my players 4 extra SP to put into Craft or Profession any way they want, as long as the level limits are observed. I call them character points.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-28, 02:12 PM
I like to give my players 4 extra SP to put into Craft or Profession any way they want, as long as the level limits are observed. I call them character points.

The downside of this method is basically telling players that they have to invest a character building resource they have in one of those things. If they don't want it, they are just giving up a free benefit, which could be seen as punitive even if Craft / Profession skills don't actually matter.

molten_dragon
2010-10-28, 04:21 PM
Okay, based on the suggestions that people made, I revised the list a bit.

Skills
Acrobatics (DEX) - combines balance, escape artist, and tumble
Athletics (STR) - Combines climb, jump, and swim
Concentration (CON) - unchanged
Craft (INT) - The use of craft itself is unchanged, however, the craft skills are broken up in a way that makes more sense (I'm thinking there will need to be 5 craft skills. Chemical, metal, stone, wood, and cloth/leather, can you think of others?). For example, you could take craft (metal) and be able to create metal armor, weapons, and other devices. I'm thinking we would have craft skills for metal, stone, wood, leather/cloth, and others if you can think of ones that would make sense. Craft also includes the functionality of the skills appraise and knowledge (architecture and engineering) with respect to the material you know how to craft. So someone with craft (stonework) would be able to determine the value of a stone statue, or point out weak points on a stone bridge.
Deception (CHA) - Combines bluff, disguise, and sleight of hand.
Handle animal (CHA) - combines handle animal and ride
Knowledge Arcana (INT) - unchanged
Knowledge dungeoneering (INT) - unchanged
Knowledge local (INT) - combines knowledge history, knowledge local, and knowledge nobility and royalty. Must be taken for a specific area, and penalties will be applied if you are outside that area. A new skill trick will be created to allow players to to apply their knowledge to other areas without penalty.
Knowledge nature (INT) - combines knowledge nature and knowledge geography
Knowledge religion (INT) - unchanged
Knowledge the planes (INT) - unchanged
Linguistics (INT) - combines decipher script and forgery
Mechanics (DEX) - combines open lock and disable device
Negotiation (CHA) - combines diplomacy, intimidate, and sense motive
Perception (WIS) - combines listen, search, and spot
Perform (CHA) - unchanged
Stealth (DEX) - combines hide and move silently
Survival (WIS) - combines survival and heal
Use magic device (CHA) - unchanged

Use rope no longer exists. You could make several different skill checks to use a rope, depending on what you wanted to do with it.

Profession no longer exists. If a character has a profession, it should just be part of their backstory.

Spellcraft no longer exists. Characters will use knowledge arcana to identify arcane spells being cast, and knowledge religion or nature to identify divine spells being cast.

Gather information no longer exists, depending on what information they're trying to gather, and how they're trying to gather it, characters will use either negotiation, deception, or knowledge local.

What do you think of the changes?

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-28, 05:31 PM
Well, there's still the things I said before (such as putting Escape Artist and Sleight of Hand together. Or establishing how, say, the Jump spell would interact with your changes).

Another thought:

Perform! Some of you may remember the stealth nerf to Bard skill points from 3.0 to 3.5e. That is to say, if you converted your 3.0 Bard to 3.5e, you might look at the changes and initially think "Cool! I have more skill points!" But then you realize... Perform got split up. If you want to play all the instruments you have, you have to spend like 5x the skill points! Ouch!

What about changing Perform back to the way it was? Or having you pick up new instruments as a 1 point "skill trick"?

Basically, the question is "Do you think that a Bard should have to pay twice the skill points in Perform if he wants to play the lute *and* sing?"

molten_dragon
2010-10-28, 05:39 PM
Well, there's still the things I said before (such as putting Escape Artist and Sleight of Hand together).

Another thought:

Perform! Some of you may remember the stealth nerf to Bard skill points from 3.0 to 3.5e. That is to say, if you converted your 3.0 Bard to 3.5e, you might look at the changes and initially think "Cool! I have more skill points!" But then you realize... Perform got split up. If you want to play all the instruments you have, you have to spend like 5x the skill points! Ouch!

What about changing Perform back to the way it was? Or having you pick up new instruments as a 1 point "skill trick"?

Basically, the question is "Do you think that a Bard should have to pay twice the skill points in Perform if he wants to play the lute *and* sing?"

Honestly, I don't know that I've EVER had anyone play a bard in one of my campaigns, so I didn't give it much thought.

But it makes sense to have a skill trick to pick up other instruments. I know from personal experience that once you've learned to play one instrument, learning others is much easier.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-28, 05:41 PM
I still think it's better to split up the social skills more (and indeed, that it would be a Bad Thing to consolidate them). Now that players have more skill points available for their core schticks like Concentration, Spellcraft, or Stealth, you free things up for them to all play a role in various out-of-combat encounters (as well as dabbling in things that they wouldn't usually pick up, like forgery). However, if you just fold up everything into Negotiation (and remember, Diplomacy is pretty much up there with Use Magic Device as it is), you're encouraging the use of one party face doing the talking while the other players feel less useful.

Basically, one of the goals I keep in mind as a game designer is creating a game where all players want to be present and feel that they contribute something at any given "minigame." E.g. the travel minigame, talking minigame, combat minigame, etc.

If you consolidate all the "talking minigame" skills into one character, then there's not much incentive for others to join in. However, if one guy has disguise, another has bluff, another has intimidate, and another has diplomacy it can be a different story entirely. I don't think you should exacerbate the "one party face" issue. Plus, the social skills are generally good. Bluff in particular has meaningful combat applications for a variety of builds. So does Intimidate. Diplomacy is just kinda ill-thought out as a mechanic, so I change the way it works.

molten_dragon
2010-10-28, 06:08 PM
I still think it's better to split up the social skills more (and indeed, that it would be a Bad Thing to consolidate them). Now that players have more skill points available for their core schticks like Concentration, Spellcraft, or Stealth, you free things up for them to all play a role in various out-of-combat encounters (as well as dabbling in things that they wouldn't usually pick up, like forgery). However, if you just fold up everything into Negotiation (and remember, Diplomacy is pretty much up there with Use Magic Device as it is), you're encouraging the use of one party face doing the talking while the other players feel less useful.

Basically, one of the goals I keep in mind as a game designer is creating a game where all players want to be present and feel that they contribute something at any given "minigame." E.g. the travel minigame, talking minigame, combat minigame, etc.

If you consolidate all the "talking minigame" skills into one character, then there's not much incentive for others to join in. However, if one guy has disguise, another has bluff, another has intimidate, and another has diplomacy it can be a different story entirely. I don't think you should exacerbate the "one party face" issue. Plus, the social skills are generally good. Bluff in particular has meaningful combat applications for a variety of builds. So does Intimidate. Diplomacy is just kinda ill-thought out as a mechanic, so I change the way it works.

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. The social skills don't get used much in my games as it is, so combining them might get them used more. And I don't allow the kind of abuse that can make diplomacy into an awesome skill that anyone should have, so combining it with some other rarely-used skills won't be game breaking.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-28, 06:55 PM
Well, it's all about the end result you want to achieve. You haven't really said much about your goals for this particular homebrew.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-28, 08:22 PM
Hmm? How so?

Aside from bluff resistance (if the DM likes this method of sneak attacking you, or manipulating your characters,) all of the rest of its PHB uses (Hunches, sensing someone under charm/dominate,) the big one is Assess Opponent (CAdv,) which will let you know if your party can take on a threat without severe casualties.
Of course, I spoke a bit too soon when I said it's the most important, not taking into consideration that all DMs and settings have different focuses, but most of the DMs I've run with love to deceive PCs, and for me, this skill has been a consistent "DM resistance" skill. Of course, if you're playing a game semi-accurately based on Greek mythology, getting your climb check to epic levels is probably the first thing you want to do.

ericgrau
2010-10-28, 09:13 PM
I have a system in my sig you can steal bits and pieces from if you wish. I know a lot of combinations are more opinion than anything and you might want different groupings. I only mention it in case you want to steal some ideas.

Mine is based on rules similarities and sometimes which skills tend to be together in the same class. For example I combined knowledge(dungeoneering) and knowledge(nature). Dungeoneering covers "aberrations, caverns, oozes and spelunking". Everything artificial falls under architecture & engineering. Rangers get both nature and dungeoneering. Geography OTOH is "lands, terrain, climate and people". Partly related, partly not, up to you.

absolmorph
2010-10-28, 09:25 PM
Aside from bluff resistance (if the DM likes this method of sneak attacking you, or manipulating your characters,) all of the rest of its PHB uses (Hunches, sensing someone under charm/dominate,) the big one is Assess Opponent (CAdv,) which will let you know if your party can take on a threat without severe casualties.
Of course, I spoke a bit too soon when I said it's the most important, not taking into consideration that all DMs and settings have different focuses, but most of the DMs I've run with love to deceive PCs, and for me, this skill has been a consistent "DM resistance" skill. Of course, if you're playing a game semi-accurately based on Greek mythology, getting your climb check to epic levels is probably the first thing you want to do.
Who needs resistance when you can make everyone willing to risk themselves for you? This is
Yes, Diplomacy. If you can get a +59 bonus, then you will (almost) never have to fight anything that can hear and understand you. Ever.
And, once you can do that, you quite literally cannot fail at making people fanatics, who are, well, fanatical in their devotion to you.

Godless_Paladin
2010-10-28, 09:30 PM
Who needs resistance when you can make everyone willing to risk themselves for you? This is
Yes, Diplomacy. If you can get a +59 bonus, then you will (almost) never have to fight anything that can hear and understand you. Ever.
And, once you can do that, you quite literally cannot fail at making people fanatics, who are, well, fanatical in their devotion to you.

This is why I changed the way Diplomacy works :smalltongue:


Hmm? How so?

Nonmagical divination kit. Sense Motive is pretty sweet. The social skills in general are all handy, and not just out of combat. Diplomacy is just out and out broken, though.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-28, 10:21 PM
Throw autohypnosis in with Concentration, but also throw in the requirement that they need to be psionic in order to use autohypnosis.