[3.5] How to Optimize Fell Drain

[balistafreak]

So we decide one day that we like handing out negative levels like candy apples on Halloween, especially when the candy apples are full of negative energy.

How best does one deliver the payload at a lower level? (At higher levels it doesn't really matter what you're doing anyways. :smalltongue:)

Assuming we are intelligent and take Practical Metamagic or some other reducer, making Fell Drain a mere +1, what can we attach it to for maximum effect?

Any sort of AoE seems good on paper, but remember that repeated negative levels on one target are far more effective than a lot of negative levels spread out. Also, your DM's head has a far lower chance of exploding from keeping track of all of them.

At 1st level, we have the classic Sonic Snap. One target takes one damage, no save, a random deafen effect, and a negative level.

At 2nd level, we have a few more options. Magic Missile may or may not force massive negative level drain with repeated hits. An interesting spell called Path of Frost from Dragon Magic lets one lay down squares of terrain that cause damage as well, again with no save. Although the movement-hindering effect requires a mere DC 10 Balance check to dodge, laying down a series of squares around an enemy and boxing him in with your BSFs can be a source of many negative levels to come.

At 3rd level, our choices begin multiplying rapidly. Scorching Ray can do the same thing as Magic Missile, and Melf's Acid Arrow can do it over time as well. Cloud of Knives, although a little harder to hit with, can give you a lot of potential negative levels over time.

Just remember to burn the bodies when you're done... or maybe catapult them over the walls of your enemies. Remember, the wightpocolypse depends on you. :smallamused:

What other low level spells hit multiple times in a short span of time?

[Duke of URL]

A target can only be affected by fell drain once per casting of a spell.

In that respect, I really like magic missile. No save, no attack roll, so it's going to always hit unless you're dealing with shield or something with immunity to low-level spells. The best part is the multiple targets -- group debuffs, especially if you can boost your CL high enough to get extra missiles.

[Reynard]

A target can only be affected by fell drain once per casting of a spell.

In that respect, I really like magic missile. No save, no attack roll, so it's going to always hit unless you're dealing with shield or something with immunity to low-level spells. The best part is the multiple targets -- group debuffs, especially if you can boost your CL high enough to get extra missiles.

...Force Missile Mage?

Oh dear lord, that'd be havoc and a half.

[Newt]

Use that trick in Shadowcraft Mage to up the level of MM if it's immunity to low level spells. Then there's the feat Arcane Thesis, and a class which lets you specialize in force. And MM works.

A Wizard built around MM.. Then there's that feat in Lost Empires or some such that allows you to break down high level spells into lots of smaller ones. Think how many MM's you can have!

For true MM fans, only the best.

[Douglas]

A target can only be affected by fell drain once per casting of a spell.
For multiple simultaneous hits, such as Magic Missile or Scorching Ray, this is correct. I'm pretty sure multiple applications of damage over separate rounds, such as Flaming Sphere or Acid Arrow, do apply an extra negative level each time they deal damage, though.

With that in mind, Thunderhead. Level 1, single target, round/level, 1 damage per round, separate reflex save to negate each round. With Practical Metamagic adding Fell Drain to this only costs a level 2 slot, and the negative levels can get really nasty with high caster level and/or Extend Spell against anyone without a sky-high reflex save.

[Duke of URL]

...Force Missile Mage?

Oh dear lord, that'd be havoc and a half.

I'm actually in a PbP game right now as an Evoker 5 / Incantatrix 1 / Force Missile Mage 2 planning on advancing FMM all the way, then back to Incantatrix, if it goes that long. Arcane Thesis magic missile and I'm casting fell drain magic missile out of level 2 slots, and empowered fell drain magic missile out of level 3 slots, with 5 missiles each time (4 from caster level 7 plus a bonus missile from FMM).

Once I manage level 5 slots, look for twin fell drain magic missile to be the order of the day. I'm picking up Residual Metamagic as my next feat, so I can abuse metamagic even further.

It's debuff city.

[Douglas]

(4 from caster level 7 plus a bonus missile from FMM)
That's caster level 7 just from class levels, right? Arcane Thesis adds +2 CL for your thesis spell, so you should have CL 9 for MM, giving 5 from caster level +1 from FMM for a total of 6 missiles.

[jiriku]

I like the idea of a fell drain cloud of knives. In fact, you could persist that and do it all day as a free action. How many spells could be persisted like that? I can imagine a character with fell drain persistent cloud of knives, fell drain persistent holy star, and fell drain persistent lightning ring. Doesn't storm tower give you an at-will attack as well? What options would a divine character have for reducing the metamagic cost of Fell Drain, apart from the Dweomerkeeper capstone?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Doesn't Lesser globe of immunity ruin all your fun?

[Duke of URL]

That's caster level 7 just from class levels, right? Arcane Thesis adds +2 CL for your thesis spell, so you should have CL 9 for MM, giving 5 from caster level +1 from FMM for a total of 6 missiles.

I... completely missed that part of Arcane Thesis, I was so focused on MM reduction. I'll bring it up to the DM after the current fight (which is basically just mopping up at this point) is over.


Doesn't Lesser globe of immunity ruin all your fun?

That's why I also keep dispel magic handy.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I see, good idea

[Keld Denar]

What options would a divine character have for reducing the metamagic cost of Fell Drain, apart from the Dweomerkeeper capstone?

You mean something like...Divine Metamagic? Hmmmmmmm....

[jiriku]

Not viable if all turn attempts are already being allocated to DMM: Persist.

[senrath]

Get more Nightsticks.

[jiriku]

:vaarsuvius: As the size of your nightstick collection increases, the number of spellcasting problems it is incapable of solving approaches zero?

[Keld Denar]

Anyway, you can only use one [Divine] feat at a time, so you couldn't simultaneously apply DMM Persist AND DMM Fell Draining to a single spell.

[senrath]

I don't think he was going to be Persisting and Fell Draining the same spells, though.

[Radar]

Classic cost reduction for arcane casters is: Arcane Thesis on your spell of choice (MM is my favorite) combined with +0 metamagics (for example the extremly useful Invisible Spell). You would need two additional feats for this, but it's a viable option, since every next +0 metamagic will reduce the overal cost even further making room for more expensive metamagics like Twin Spell.

Get more Nightsticks.
Ahh... the divine version of Moar Dakka. :smallbiggrin:

[jiriku]

I don't think he was going to be Persisting and Fell Draining the same spells, though.

I was totally going to do that. And Twin them too, if I can pull it off. Who wouldn't want to be able to hand out negative levels all day long? There's a spell in Complete Champion that creates a phantom knight to guard you too...he'd be even niftier if he handed out negative levels on hit.

[Keld Denar]

ZOMG! Fell Draining Legion of Sentinals.

All attempts to escape will be met by no fewer than 3 automatic negative levels. Attempting to remain inside and perform distracting activities (like spellcasting) will result in many many many more.

[Last Laugh]

Just stick invisible spell on the legion of sentinels and they won't know what hit them :smallcool:
Would As the Frost (PhbII?) hand out AoE negative levels every round? Doubled for your familiar, you gain immunity to the cold damage.
Fell-Drain Fire Wall is neat.
Shard Storm is AoE which triggers on each of your turns for 3d6 damage, you can suppress it as a free action for 1 round. Reflex half, Spell resistance yes.

[Malbordeus]

there are a lot of druid spells that can make amusing use of fell drain. creeping cold (especially if extended) can hand out one a level regardless of saves.
Quillfire and Spiritual weapon would also work. and decomposition is just funny with this.

Fire shield and the ilk would work for wizard-types, as would death armour at a slightle lower level.

Chill touch would work too. especially when factoring in mm school focus and spectral hand.

one fun thing you can do is combo with other mm feats like Icy Spell and black lore of moil to hammer really wide areas.

[jiriku]

ZOMG! Fell Draining Legion of Sentinals.


Just stick invisible spell on the legion of sentinels and they won't know what hit them :smallcool:

OMG that is...so rude. Imma do it. So, what good BC spells deal damage when you trigger them, and can be used with this? I can think of:

blade barrier
evard's black tentacles
explosive rune field
legion of sentinels
wall of fire/ice/thorns/gears

[Keld Denar]

Freezing Fog would be another good one, although it is a bit higher level. Freezing Fog is notoriously difficult to get out of, due to the combination of Grease and Solid Fog effects. It does a scant 1d6 damage per round, but thats enough for Fell Draining to ride along.

Fell Draining Sonic Weapon is also kinda fun. Cast that on your friendly archer friend's bow and watch him Rapid Shot things into wightdom.

[Duke of URL]

A lot of these creative uses probably aren't going to fly in a real game. The text of the feat is vague enough, but expect a sane DM to rule that a) a creature can only be affected by Fell Drain once per casting of the spell, and b) Fell Drain can only be applied to spells that directly cause damage (no fell drain summon monster I, for example).

[mootoall]

But wow ... what're the prereqs for Fell Drain? 'Cause if a wizard could get it at first level by having arcane thesis on a Sonic Snap ... Level drain at such low levels would be incredible.

[Keld Denar]

No prereqs on it. Its just a MM feat. Arcane Thesis DOES have prereqs though, making it out of reach before ~6th level, IIRC.

That said, Practical Metamagic is available at 1st level if you are a dragonblooded caster (like a Silverbrow Human).

So yes, you can Fell Draining Sonic Snap as a 1st level Wizard (or Sorcerer).

[Deth Muncher]

OMG that...so rude. Imma do it. So, what good BC spells deal damage when you trigger them, and can be used with this. I can think of:

blade barrier
evard's black tentacles
explosive rune field
legion of sentinels
wall of fire/ice/thorns/gears

Streamers. Do it.

[jiriku]

Fell Draining Sonic Weapon is also kinda fun. Cast that on your friendly archer friend's bow and watch him Rapid Shot things into wightdom.

This is also rude...and thus going into my bag of tricks. :smallbiggrin:


A lot of these creative uses probably aren't going to fly in a real game. The text of the feat is vague enough, but expect a sane DM to rule that a) a creature can only be affected by Fell Drain once per casting of the spell, and b) Fell Drain can only be applied to spells that directly cause damage (no fell drain summon monster I, for example).

Could be. But even then, persisting the personal-range spells with free-action activation gives you free negative levels in every battle against every foe. At a bare minimum, it's a solid debuff that makes enemies more vulnerable to SoD and SoL spells.


Streamers. Do it.

...but I do have principles, sir. :smalltongue:

[Eloel]

Locate City Bomb? Ouch.

[Tshern]

Streamers. Do it.
This, definitely this.

[FMArthur]

Wow, it looks like there's a really nice progression of similar spells to use Fell Drain on as you level up. Thunderhead is a 1st level spell, Legion of Sentinels is 3rd, and Streamers is 5th. I expect you'll just continue to use Magic Missile throughout.

[h2doh]

So we decide one day that we like handing out negative levels like candy apples on Halloween, especially when the candy apples are full of negative energy.



now i want to know how to fell drain goodberry so you can actually hand out negative level candy apples for halloween

[Keld Denar]

Snowcasting (makes spell [Cold]) + Flash Frost (adds +2 cold damage to [Cold] spells) + Fell Draining will work on any spell.

You just have to be a Wicked Witch of the North (arctic).

[jiriku]

So you can turn your goodberry into a frozendeathberry.

[Xan_Kriegor]

now i want to know how to fell drain goodberry so you can actually hand out negative level candy apples for halloween

Would refluffed holly berry bombs a la Fire Seeds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireSeeds.htm) count? It's high level (Drd 6), Reflex for half but SR: No.

[Shalist]

Well, felldrain can only be added to spells that do damage, and goodberries don't even damage undead *shrug* (or do they? Heck, they'd be like scooby snacks for undead, if that were the case...)

Personally I'd use the snowcasting/flash frost bit to slap fell drain (or other tasty metamagics) on some permanent spells, like illusory wall or permanent image.

I'm real iffy on whether it'd do any good with creation-type spells--I mean, even with the snowcasting/flashfrost bit, the area of affect would still be whatever you actually cast the spell on, not what that object subsequently interacted with.

If that were the case, you could just create the flashlights from hell by using fell drain (exploding, sculpted, etc etc) 'continual flames,' and say that their area of effect was their radius/beam of light. Or use 'control water' to create massive volumes of water that wighted people when they drank it. Or use it with 'control weather,' and say that anyone it rained on was now a wight, etc...

[Last Laugh]

I forgot about Splinterbolt
Save:no, Sr:no
It is similar to scorching ray, you target upto 3 creatures to hit with a ranged attack. (not touch attack)
Could be very nice.

[mregecko]

Incantatrix fun for....

Fell Drain, Persisted, Energy-Admixtured & Energy Substituded Mass Fire Shield?

"Sure... Go ahead and take a whack at our tank. Dare ya."

[jiriku]

If that were the case, you could just create the flashlights from hell by using fell drain (exploding, sculpted, etc etc) 'continual flames,' and say that their area of effect was their radius/beam of light. Or use 'control water' to create massive volumes of water that wighted people when they drank it. Or use it with 'control weather,' and say that anyone it rained on was now a wight, etc...

Ahem... I am embarrassed to say that some of those things are in fact legal. It is a very silly game that we play. :smalltongue:


Incantatrix fun for....

Fell Drain, Persisted, Energy-Admixtured & Energy Substituded Mass Fire Shield?

"Sure... Go ahead and take a whack at our tank. Dare ya."

Don't forget to empower and twin it, as well!

[balistafreak]

Combine with Bracers of the Entangling Blast from the MIC. Now while the damage is halved, the spell now entangles for 1d3 rounds, dealing ONGOING damage during those rounds.

... please tell me Fell Drain hits during those rounds too.

[Malbordeus]

kelgores grave mist is level 2, no save or SR... technicly.
Assault of stones! level 1 AoE, no save or SR!

right, i've just opened my LM so i'll put the text out here. its not ambiguous, its pretty basic really.
"Bentfit: you can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level."

the rest of it just goes on as a reminder that if you have negative levels equal or greater than your hitdice you die.

so Damage over time - nice
multiple targets - Nice

DoT that hits multiple targets... just plain wrong. things that reduce MM so we can flange it onto level 0 spells include Twilight Metamagic (magic of incarnum... this ability can do it all on its own, but only to one spell per day) Meta School focus (Complete mage) and ofcourse Arcane thesis. but this is such a waste to apply it to a level 0 spell!

[jiriku]

You're thinking hail of stone. I've used that one on a mailman sorcerer. It works nicely, but on that sort of build Fell Drain wasn't all that effective because I was killing foes so quickly that the debuff really didn't have an effect on the encounter.

[Endarire]

If you're feeling like it, you could add Fell Drain to spells that deal ability damage.

Fell Drain ray of stupidity or shivering touch. Hmm.

[balistafreak]

I looked at Kelgore's grave mist, but although it seems really good on paper (damage ---> negative levels! no save!) you'll never really be able to score more than one negative level with it. And it's not really better than any other 2nd/3rd level cloud spell that all affected enemies will GTFO out of. The only possible use I can see with it is if you are a Necropolitan, because then you're not living, and aren't affected by either the grave mist at all. (Come to think of it, Fell Drain doesn't work on non-living creatures in the first place. Heh.) Drop it on yourself to create a 20 foot radius of "touch me and pay for it".


If you're feeling like it, you could add Fell Drain to spells that deal ability damage.

Fell Drain ray of stupidity or shivering touch. Hmm.

Nah, see, those ability damage spells are already vaunted for their ability to one-hit KO an enemy. The negative level is merely a hilarious rider to add insult to injury, but truthfully it adds nothing.

We're looking for cheap spells to either act as cheaper versions of enervation, basically. Adding the Bracers of the Entangling Blast is totally awesome.

Found another winner. Stars of Arvandor is a 3rd level spell (so 4th level after Practical Metamagic'd Fell Drain, and probably far better than enervation at this point) very much like cloud of knives from the BoED... but instead of having a round/level duration, you receive a limited bank of shots (CL up to 10) and have a duration of min/level. So instead of casting fell drain cloud of knives as your first action in combat, you can now cast whatever you want, because you've already cast fellwith your other pre-combat buffs.

Oh yeah, the shots are touch attacks too, and are a force effect to boot. The only problem with them is that they don't deal full damage to nonevil targets. Hey, sometimes it's good to be the good guy. :smallcool:

Come to think of it, nothing stops you from throwing on fell drain cloud of knives on top of this spell, except your DM possibly throwing a book at you. :smallamused:

[HMS Invincible]

Does arcane thesis cause my silent, stilled, extended, heightened, enlarged summon monster VIII spell uses my 8th level casting slot?

How do I afford all these delicious feats? Is there some splat book that grants free feats that I don't know about? I could have sworn there was a way to give up my weapon proficiencies in exchange for more feats.

[Eloel]

Does arcane thesis cause my silent, stilled, extended, heightened, enlarged summon monster VIII spell uses my 8th level casting slot?

How do I afford all these delicious feats? Is there some splat book that grants free feats that I don't know about? I could have sworn there was a way to give up my weapon proficiencies in exchange for more feats.

Google "Chaos Shuffle" for the feat exchanges. Also look at "incantatrix" for more reduction in the MM costs, AND extra MM feats.