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Black_Zawisza
2010-10-27, 10:12 PM
I'm a Warblade in a L7/6 party with a Warlock, a Paladin, a Soulknife/Psionic Warrior, a Cleric, and a Sorcerer. I'm out-DPSing the rest of the group by far. Is that normal? At what level do melee-ers tend to become less useful than casters?

gbprime
2010-10-27, 10:38 PM
That entirely depends on the melee folks and how much they're doing. Honestly, if they're doing that much, the casters SHOULDN'T compete, and should focus on changing the conditions of the fight instead.

But if they are going to compete, 6th and 7th level spells (and metamagic enhanced lower ones) start to outshine any effort in melee. Avasculate, Empowered Disintegrate, Mass Flesh to Salt, Stun Ray, Harm...

Eldariel
2010-10-27, 10:40 PM
Yeah, it's normal. Melee has highest damage (DPS seems like a poor measurement given time in combat is measured in rounds; DPR instead?) aside from casters built for damage. Indeed, that's not casters' claim to fame. It's doing everything else.

The Warlock...he'll probably never bypass you though going Eldritch Glaive and Hellfire Lock, he could get very respectable damage on his own right.

Soulknife/Psychic Warrior; please tell me he's a straight Psychic Warrior with Soulbound Weaponry (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)? Otherwise, his lack of manifester levels will leave him quite a ways behind you. Though optimized Psy Wars have a frightening damage output, especially since they get all the melee multipliers (and well, there are few Psionic loop holes; not as many as with Arcane & Divine Casting but they are there - I'm not going there right now though as I'm assuming they aren't being exploited anyways).

Paladin can do decent damage but mostly while charging; he's standard melee so the usual tricks work for him. Smites also have something going on for them but they're only few times per day weakening them quite a bit.

And Cleric...he's only now gonna pick up. What kinds of spells is he preparing? Clerics can be combat beasts when built as such, and they can be awe-inspiring spellcasters and buffers but out of all the casters, they're probably the hardest to get the most out of since much of their power relies on using Domains and converting Turning into something more powerful (like Divine Spell Power, Divine Metamagic and company).

Sorcerer won't deal damage unless he's built in a very specific way. Otherwise he'll mostly control the game and make sure fights are easy to win. But around level 8 is when he gets access to the really good stuff.


So...yeah, unless the others are built as such, you should remain on top of the damage ladder with Psy War and maybe Warlock, Paladin and Cleric. They can all do similar damage if they care, though there are other ways to go with those classes (including "DO NOTHING YAY!" which happens rather often too). Psy War and Paladin are the most natural high damage dealers aside from you; Warlock and Cleric take a bit more know-how.

Black_Zawisza
2010-10-27, 10:55 PM
Soulknife/Psychic Warrior; please tell me he's a straight Psychic Warrior with Soulbound Weaponry (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)? Otherwise, his lack of manifester levels will leave him quite a ways behind you.
Straight means no multiclassing, right? You said it yourself, he's a Soulknife/Psychic Warrior =P

Eldariel
2010-10-27, 11:00 PM
Straight means no multiclassing, right? You said it yourself, he's a Soulknife/Psychic Warrior =P

Straight class = no multiclassing yes. I was just asking because the alternative class feature I linked gives a Psychic Warrior what amounts to Mindblade without any multiclassing, so you could call a Psychic Warrior with Soulbound Weaponry a Soulknife/Psychic Warrior - that's what he effectively is, just he is also functional.

Soulknife levels are just...pretty terrible on a Psychic Warrior since they give up manifester levels gaining nothing. That hurts, a lot. Especially in mid-levels since Psychic Warriors gain power points and powers slowly so giving up early levels means you get to the point where you can actually use them much, much later. So...meh. Consider him a character of effectively lower level; just count his character levels without the Soulknife levels and his real effective level should come out.

Hawk7915
2010-10-27, 11:09 PM
Depends on what you mean by "outpacing". In terms of damage dealing, few caster classes have the "sustained dps" of a Tome of Battle class or a well-built charger. The sorcerer might be able to do more damage with a single attack (DISINTEGRATE!) but maneuvers + full attacks + attacks of opportunity + damage scaling with ability scores means that well built melee characters deal more damage almost all the time (weird metamagic reducer builds notwithstanding). Damage is a warrior classes specialty, and they (especially the Tome of Battle ones) are really, really good at their speciality.

In terms of usefulness? At this level, your Cleric can "solve" entire encounters with a single spell cast (Death Ward (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm), Freedom of Movement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/freedomOfMovement.htm), Dispel Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm)), can cripple foes with permanent debuffs (Bestow Curse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bestowCurse.htm), among others) and turn himself into an uber-warrior for one fight (Divine Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm), Divine Favor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divineFavor.htm)). Also while healing the whole party and randomly destroying any undead you encounter. And that's just core. How much of that can a Warblade do?

Sorcerers lag behind, but similarly already can have access to all sorts of random encounter ending "I Win" buttons (Sleet Storm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/sleetStorm.htm), Haste (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/haste.htm), Web (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/web.htm), Glitterdust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm), Ray of Enfeeblement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/rayOfEnfeeblement.htm), and Grease (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/grease.htm) are the short list; again this is core only). Soon he'll be able to turn people into Trolls, teleport across the earth, and spy on your enemies from hundreds of miles away. And as mentioned he's not totally incapable of dishing out the pain if he really feels like doing so.

Warblades (and with good feat choices, other melee classes) can emulate some of these things; there are strikes and feats that let you inflict status effects, strip away magic effects, etc. But casters can do it with greater versatility and less resource expenditure. As a result, they have to cripplingly overspecialize to outpace non-casters for damage dealing. But arguably they tend to "be more useful" from level one onwards, as they can do things that warriors just can't.

Darrin
2010-10-27, 11:10 PM
At what level do melee-ers tend to become less useful than casters?

Just after 7th, when Wizards get Evard's Bad Hentai Movie and and Clerics get Divine "Make the Fighter Weep" Powah (although Druids start to unload some whoopass a level earlier with the whole bear-rips-off-your-face-and-calls-down-lightning thing).

RelentlessImp
2010-10-28, 04:04 AM
Level 1. Color Spray, Sleep, Command, Entangle, Summon Monster I (badger), Grease, etc.

Level 3 it gets worse when Glitterdust comes into play.

That's if they're being played properly. If, by usefulness, you mean something other than damage, because damage is your only schtick, and it's ineffective for a caster to blow their precious PP/Spells Per Day on doing damage (save for The Mailman Sorcerer, then it's just hilarious). It's downright ineffective to play a blaster caster, because the 'do damage' bit can be done all day long, an unlimited amount, by melee and classes like the Warlock.

And with the HP amounts vs damage Direct Damage spells do... yeah. It's just not smart to Blast.

pasko77
2010-10-28, 05:01 AM
I'm a Warblade in a L7/6 party with a Warlock, a Paladin, a Soulknife/Psionic Warrior, a Cleric, and a Sorcerer. I'm out-DPSing the rest of the group by far. Is that normal? At what level do melee-ers tend to become less useful than casters?

ur doin it wrong (the comparison):smalltongue:
casters don't deal damage.

Shpadoinkle
2010-10-28, 05:05 AM
ur doin it wrong (the comparison):smalltongue:
casters don't deal damage.

Pretty much.

The main power of casters comes from hitting enemies with Save or Die/Save or Suck spells and buffing their allies.

Runestar
2010-10-28, 05:14 AM
ur doin it wrong (the comparison):smalltongue:
casters don't deal damage.

That means the casters are doing their job so well that the fighters don't even realize this.

Oops...sorry to dispel the illusion. :smalltongue:

RelentlessImp
2010-10-28, 06:48 AM
That means the casters are doing their job so well that the fighters don't even realize this.

Oops...sorry to dispel the illusion. :smalltongue:

Shhh... it's not proof that it's an illusion, so they don't get to make a Will save yet. And they never interact with it, so just don't tell them. If we keep them from disbelieving, they'll be happier.

Boci
2010-10-28, 05:35 PM
Depends on what you mean by "outpacing". In terms of damage dealing, few caster classes have the "sustained dps" of a Tome of Battle class or a well-built charger. The sorcerer might be able to do more damage with a single attack (DISINTEGRATE!) but maneuvers + full attacks + attacks of opportunity + damage scaling with ability scores means that well built melee characters deal more damage almost all the time (weird metamagic reducer builds notwithstanding). Damage is a warrior classes specialty, and they (especially the Tome of Battle ones) are really, really good at their speciality.

I actually disagree that the only way to out damage a ToB class is to be a charger. Core melee (as long as they have access to some splatbooks) will generally do more damage than a martial adept's maneuver with a full attack, or at least match it.
The ToB class's strength over core are two fold. One, they generally only require a standard action to make the most offense wise, allowing them such tactical options as readied actions and moving without charging. This also means that loosing a move action isn't that bad for them, were as its pretty nasty for a core melee.
The second one if their ability to do more than just damage without the need for investing resources. Extra movement, bonuses for allies, minor debuffs. Ways to actually change the power balance of a fight before something is knocked down to 0hp.
There is also the fact that ToB requires less optimizing, but with the internet that is less relevant.

jiriku
2010-10-28, 06:03 PM
I'm a Warblade in a L7/6 party with a Warlock, a Paladin, a Soulknife/Psionic Warrior, a Cleric, and a Sorcerer. I'm out-DPSing the rest of the group by far. Is that normal? At what level do melee-ers tend to become less useful than casters?

Yes, it's normal. The difference starts to get felt in a big way at levels 7-8 if the casters are good. You may never see it if the casters are bad.

Akal Saris
2010-10-28, 06:24 PM
Conversely, if the casters play well and the melees play quite poorly (sword and board paladin, for example, or probably soulknife/psywarr), then it becomes much more apparent quite quickly.

Endarire
2010-10-29, 01:01 AM
I've heard that around level 7, casters who play smart probably won't run out of spells during a day. Having a reserve feat like Fiery Burst aids greatly.

I've noted elsewhere (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9664.0) that level 7 is a notable breakpoint. Level 4 spells are just that uber, and lower level spells still retain most their usefulness.

Kaww
2010-10-29, 02:12 AM
Level 1. Color Spray, Sleep, Command, Entangle, Summon Monster I (badger), Grease, etc.

Level 3 it gets worse when Glitterdust comes into play.

That's if they're being played properly. If, by usefulness, you mean something other than damage, because damage is your only schtick, and it's ineffective for a caster to blow their precious PP/Spells Per Day on doing damage (save for The Mailman Sorcerer, then it's just hilarious). It's downright ineffective to play a blaster caster, because the 'do damage' bit can be done all day long, an unlimited amount, by melee and classes like the Warlock.

And with the HP amounts vs damage Direct Damage spells do... yeah. It's just not smart to Blast.

This! If played in a correct manner casters stand out from lvl 1.

What's the Mailman sorcerer? Link, if any...

Ecalsneerg
2010-10-29, 02:17 AM
Just after 7th, when Wizards get Evard's Bad Hentai Movie and and Clerics get Divine "Make the Fighter Weep" Powah (although Druids start to unload some whoopass a level earlier with the whole bear-rips-off-your-face-and-calls-down-lightning thing).

As an E6 fan, I agree with this. Stopping at level 6 tends to keep it semi-fair, balance-wise, a few must-haves like Grease aside.

Eldariel
2010-10-29, 02:31 AM
This! If played in a correct manner casters stand out from lvl 1.

What's the Mailman sorcerer? Link, if any...

The Mail Always Gets There (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer). Basically Sorc whose damage can't be stopped. And it's respectable damage, alright.