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View Full Version : [3.5e] More ways to break the wizard class



Dark_Nohn
2010-10-28, 04:10 AM
Well, playgrounders, something I've been speculating on for the past week or so is a wizard build, not so much optimized for utility, but rather optimized for the quickest progression to 9th level arcane spells, and somewhat caster level. Then I came to the realization that there's almost no reason to get a caster level that high, and thus the 1-14 progression of this build is all I can seem to reasonably concieve as an addition to any real build.


Note that the interpretation of casting arcane spells from the Mage of the Arcane Order's spell pool as "spontaneously casting" is how this functions. This cheese is available at lower levels via the "ALACRITOUS COGITATION" feat, though it only reduces the level you get 9th level spells at to 13th level, and it'll be a lot easier to let it fly by saying that you worked through 4 levels of a prestige class than just picking up a feat to let it happen. Via the feat route, you'll be able to work up to CL 35 with 4 levels of archmage, losing all of your 5th level slots, or 36 if you're willing to ditch a 6th level slot as well, but as stated above, 25th caster level is the maximum for anything not relating to duration, distance, or volume that I could find.
{table=head]Level|Class|Spells per day level|CL

1|Wizard|1|1

2|Wizard|2|2

3|Wizard|3|3

4|Wizard|4|4

5|Wizard|5|5

6|Mage Of The Arcane Order|6|6

7|Mage Of The Arcane Order|7|7

8|Mage Of The Arcane Order|8|8

9|Mage Of The Arcane Order|9|9

10|Ultimate Magus|10|11

11|Ultimate Magus|12|13

12|Ultimate Magus|14|15

13|Ultimate Magus|15|17

14|Ultimate Magus|17|19

15|Ultimate Magus|19|21

16|Ultimate Magus|20|23

17|Ultimate Magus|(22)|25

18|Ultimate Magus|(24)|27

19|Ultimate Magus|(26)|30

20|Archmage|(27)|32[/table]

Coidzor
2010-10-28, 04:14 AM
Ultimate Magus? huh. was sure that it was a dual-progression casting class.

Eldariel
2010-10-28, 04:21 AM
Ultimate Magus? huh. was sure that it was a dual-progression casting class.

Yeah, but he's qualifying for both sides with Wizard and advancing both with it. Not technically RAW illegal, though for whatever reason he's using the questionable MOTAO instead of simple, completely unambiguous Spontaneous Divination.


Oh, and caster level matters. Maw of Chaos, Gate, Disjunction & co. - there are uncapped spells in the game. And every spell with duration derives its duration off CL; guess how easy it becomes to keep up 10 min/level spells all day around CL 30. And Dispelling is huge and around CL 35, only dedicated Dispellers have any hope with any Dispels short of Disjunction.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-28, 04:21 AM
It is, but when you're dual progressioning into wizard (as you're able to consider it both a "prepares spells from book" and "spontaneous," you can pump 2 levels into one progression)

Edit:

Yeah, but he's qualifying for both sides with Wizard and advancing both with it. Not technically RAW illegal, though for whatever reason he's using the questionable MOTAO instead of simple, completely unambiguous Spontaneous Divination.


Oh, and caster level matters. Maw of Chaos, Gate, Disjunction & co. - there are uncapped spells in the game. And every spell with duration derives its duration off CL; guess how easy it becomes to keep up 10 min/level spells all day around CL 30. And Dispelling is huge and around CL 35, only dedicated Dispellers have any hope with any Dispels short of Disjunction.

Aha, didn't even know about that spontaneous divination, though that makes everything easier... in a way...

Eldariel
2010-10-28, 04:42 AM
It is, but when you're dual progressioning into wizard (as you're able to consider it both a "prepares spells from book" and "spontaneous," you can pump 2 levels into one progression)

Edit:


Aha, didn't even know about that spontaneous divination, though that makes everything easier... in a way...

Aye, Wizard 5/Ultimate Magus 8 is a good "early 9s" build if you aren't looking to abuse too much. Of course, getting 9s before 17 is invariably WRONG but comparatively it's not that bad; you're in the teens after all. Wizard 1/Ultimate Magus 9 is hilarious, but qualifying is much more of a hassle that way.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-28, 05:13 AM
Aye, Wizard 5/Ultimate Magus 8 is a good "early 9s" build if you aren't looking to abuse too much. Of course, getting 9s before 17 is invariably WRONG but comparatively it's not that bad; you're in the teens after all. Wizard 1/Ultimate Magus 9 is hilarious, but qualifying is much more of a hassle that way.

I don't see how you can qualify for UM at Wiz1, sure you can get the concentrate, with two different feats you can both get the ability to cast spontaneously and cast 2nd level spells, but you need to be level 5 to get 8 ranks in any skill, as it's skill ranks, not skill bonus/modifier

Eldariel
2010-10-28, 05:14 AM
I don't see how you can qualify for UM at Wiz1, sure you can get the concentrate, with two different feats you can both get the ability to cast spontaneously and cast 2nd level spells, but you need to be level 5 to get 8 ranks in any skill, as it's skill ranks, not skill bonus/modifier

There are ways. Not a lot, mind you, but there are ways. This will mostly fall under the "get Temporary HD, Reformation your skill points" cap, where the means to acquire Temp HD are free but you need something.

gbprime
2010-10-28, 10:11 AM
Aye, Wizard 5/Ultimate Magus 8 is a good "early 9s" build if you aren't looking to abuse too much. Of course, getting 9s before 17 is invariably WRONG but comparatively it's not that bad; you're in the teens after all.

I was gonna quote the gestalt rules for a precedent on not getting more than one caster level per level... but the actual rule says you can gain the benefit from the most advantageous of the two classes... so in this case it does indeed work fine to get 17 caster levels out of 10 levels of ONE PrC.

I'm not sure I'd allow it as a DM, though. Depends on what the other PC's are capable of.

Eldariel
2010-10-28, 10:31 AM
I was gonna quote the gestalt rules for a precedent on not getting more than one caster level per level... but the actual rule says you can gain the benefit from the most advantageous of the two classes... so in this case it does indeed work fine to get 17 caster levels out of 10 levels of ONE PrC.

I'm not sure I'd allow it as a DM, though. Depends on what the other PC's are capable of.

If the others are level 17, sure. Or if they're playing Beholder Mages, Illithid Savants or even Ur-Priests, it should be fine. Otherwise, yeah no.

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-28, 09:14 PM
I was gonna quote the gestalt rules for a precedent on not getting more than one caster level per level... but the actual rule says you can gain the benefit from the most advantageous of the two classes... so in this case it does indeed work fine to get 17 caster levels out of 10 levels of ONE PrC.

I'm not sure I'd allow it as a DM, though. Depends on what the other PC's are capable of.

... [Plus +4 caster level class ability makes this 21 caster levels over 10 levels]

Endarire
2010-10-29, 12:39 AM
If you can bypass the skill requirements, take the feats Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane 181) and Signature Spell (Player's Guide to Faerun 43).

Signature Spell normally requires Spell Mastery, but an Illusionist with Illusion Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionMastery) qualifies.

Take a flaw and obtain a metamagic feat, solidifying your entry.