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ShriekingDrake
2010-10-28, 09:16 PM
My DM has just indicated that in his world, now, all druids must be spontaneous casters per the variant rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm). Fair enough. I know there's been this kind of discussion on some boards before, but here I am now facing this issue and I could use your help.

Here's what I'm thinking. We can use all Wotc published material subject to dm approval.

Human Druid20: Spell Focus Conj. (1), Augment Summoning (Human), Ashbound (Flaw), Greenbound (flaw), Extend Spell (3), Natural Spell (6), Initiate of Nature (9), Dragon Wild Shape (12), Rashemi Elemental Summoning (15), Ocular Spell (18). Pet: Wolf then Fleshraker (if permitted)

0--Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds, Dawn, Detect Magic, Guidance, Light, Mending, Read Magic, Resistance
1--Aspect of the Wolf, Healthful Rest, Impeding Stones, Obscuring Mist, Winged Watcher
2--Blinding Spittle, Bone Talisman, Splinterbolt, Kelpstrand, Snake's Swiftness (Mass)
3--Energy Vortex, Poison, Spiritjaws, Venomfire
4--Enhance Wild Shape, Langour, Murderous Mist, Sheltered Vitality
5--Animal Growth, Control Winds, Owl's Insight, Panacea
6--Bite of the Werebear, Greater Dispel Magic, Superior Resistance
7--Heal, Master Earth, True Seeing
8--Frostfell, Red Tide, Sunburst
9--Nature's Avatar, Shapechange, Summon Elemental Monolith.

Are these the right spells? What would you recommend? Why? Tha.nks

Dark_Nohn
2010-10-28, 09:26 PM
Most of the druid-zilla esque I've seen actually played comes moreso from low level spells augmenting their animal companion and wildshape (with natural spell,)

You'll want all levels of heal spells unless your party has a cleric. I'm not sure if you have spells that do it better, but stoneskin, barkskin, magic fang(and/or greater) are good ones too

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-28, 09:29 PM
Summon Nature's Ally for a Storm Elemental (MM3) is an exceptional damage spell.


You'll want all levels of heal spells unless your party has a cleric.

You might be able to get along with just Cure Light Wounds and wands, depending.

Psyren
2010-10-28, 10:19 PM
Summon Nature's Ally for a Storm Elemental (MM3) is an exceptional damage spell.

You might be able to get along with just Cure Light Wounds and wands, depending.

Indeed, especially until you can get SNA 4 for a Unicorn to patch everyone up.

Eldariel
2010-10-29, 02:07 AM
Your selection seems broadly awesome. However, there's a few spells, mostly Core ones, that I think might envelop some of what you have there.


Entangle is an absolute must. It's a monster of a level 1 spell that has utility a dozen levels later. As you can use Wands of CLW without knowing CLW, that's covered.

I'd definitely pack Giant Vermin on 4. Also, 3 should definitely include Greater Magic Fang. Poison is far, far weaker, for example.

Also, Resist Energy on level 2? I'd definitely pick either that or Energy Immunity; no reason to be suspectible to energy damage from non-Searing Spelled sources. I'd also consider Finger of Death or Baleful Polymorph even tho they aren't all that strong, since it seems good to have access to one Fort SoD.

I'd definitely cut Sunburst, which is decidedly mediocre, for e.g. Finger of Death, Leonal's Roar or some such.

Oh, and I'd try to fit Barkskin too even tho your level 2s are a bit packed. Or Tortoise Shell but I can't see you cutting any level 6s so... Hell, you can't even fit Antilife Shell! It's also too bad there's so little room for Scrying but c'est la vie... Panacea is also something you probably can cut since Heal broadly accomplishes all the same goals.

EDIT: Oh yeah, you have Greenbound; nevermind Entangle then. Tho it can still be useful; Summons a full-round to get while it's a standard action.

Eloel
2010-10-29, 02:16 AM
If you really like the Druid spelllist, and are not into Druid because of companion or wildshape, may I suggest Spirit Shaman to you? Same spell list, spontaneous out-of-the-box, has a couple fun abilities, and iirc (away from books), can change out spells every day. Yes, you choose spells in the morning, and cast them spontaneously through the day. Wizard and Sorcerer goodies rolled into one, with +abilities. On druid list, is what makes it worse than a Wiz.

It's worth noting that I'm working off of memory, so one or more statements could be illusions I made up in my mind.

faceroll
2010-10-29, 02:40 AM
Oh, and I'd try to fit Barkskin too even tho your level 2s are a bit packed.

Barkskin doesn't stack with bite of X. Get Halo of Sand (Sandstorm) instead. Lasts just as long, but grants a deflection bonus. Slightly less AC overall, but a better type. Well actually, I'd swap barkskin out for halo when you hit 12th level.

Unless there's a cleric in the party. Then let him use divine shield or whatever.

Eldariel
2010-10-29, 02:58 AM
Barkskin doesn't stack with bite of X. Get Halo of Sand (Sandstorm) instead. Lasts just as long, but grants a deflection bonus. Slightly less AC overall, but a better type. Well actually, I'd swap barkskin out for halo when you hit 12th level.

Unless there's a cleric in the party. Then let him use divine shield or whatever.

Bark can be cast on allies tho which is nice. Though yeah, Halo of Sand is a good one. I guess being spontaneous does deny Greater Luminous Armor tho which kinda sucks. I assume Wands of Lesser Restoration will also be used.

bokodasu
2010-10-29, 06:20 AM
If you really like the Druid spelllist, and are not into Druid because of companion or wildshape, may I suggest Spirit Shaman to you?

What book is that in? (They all blur together after awhile...)

Eloel
2010-10-29, 06:23 AM
What book is that in? (They all blur together after awhile...)

80% chance of Complete Divine
20% chance of Complete Adventurer

They really DO blur.

Cyclocone
2010-10-29, 07:11 AM
It looks pretty good, but were I you, I'd squeese in Quicken Spell +Rapid Metamagic instead of something else.

For spells:
-Heal is lame (and SNA IV gets you a Unicorn). I'd probably go with Slime Wave (CDiv) instead. Maybe.
-Sunburst is very niche. Unless you expect a lot of vampires, I'd go with Leonals Roar or Bombardment (if only for the "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies!").
-Antilife Shell is hilarious when it applies.

ShriekingDrake
2010-10-29, 07:33 AM
Thanks for these great comments. Let me imbed a few thoughts and questions.


Your selection seems broadly awesome. However, there's a few spells, mostly Core ones, that I think might envelop some of what you have there.

Entangle is an absolute must. It's a monster of a level 1 spell that has utility a dozen levels later. As you can use Wands of CLW without knowing CLW, that's covered.
I agree with you; entangle is the bomb. As you suggested below, I think that I can get to entangle though Greenbound Summoning. I wrestled with putting it on the list, but also like the option of Impeding Stones for areas where there is no vegetation. With such a limited spell list, I feel like I need options.


I'd definitely pack Giant Vermin on 4. Also, 3 should definitely include Greater Magic Fang. Poison is far, far weaker, for example. Giant Vermin is, as you say, a great spell--especially at the upper levels. What would you pull to put it in. Perhaps it is a spell I could rotate in at 16th or 18th level--or would you suggest sooner. One reason I hesitate to put it in earlier is that I can already summon a nice fighting force with Summon Nature's Ally (and with Initiate of Nature I can have a nice troop of animals/plant creatures supporting me). What do you think.

Regarding Greater Magic Fang, I'd like to hear more. I think with all the wisdom boost available, it is possible to make poison a very effective spell against many (but certainly not all) threats. Because it attack constitution, it is possible to drop a high Con creature (due to hit point loss) and a low Con creature (due to Con loss).

I'd appreciate being able to think through this with you a bit more.


Also, Resist Energy on level 2? I'd definitely pick either that or Energy Immunity; no reason to be suspectible to energy damage from non-Searing Spelled sources. I'd also consider Finger of Death or Baleful Polymorph even tho they aren't all that strong, since it seems good to have access to one Fort SoD.
I agree with you about energy resistance of some kind. I wanted Energy Immunity, but with only three spells at 6th, I wasn't sure what to replace. Those 6th level spells are so good. Perhaps I should exchange snake's swiftness out at 2nd and put in Resist Energy. Or would you suggest replacing a different spell?

As for the Fort save or die spell, I was thinking that, often, that would be poison, which would allow me more space in the higher level slots. Yet, I agree with the utility of such spells.


I'd definitely cut Sunburst, which is decidedly mediocre, for e.g. Finger of Death, Leonal's Roar or some such. I can do that. I suppose, I could look for some more utility based 8th level spell, as well, particularly given that the other two spells are mass removal-ish/climate orients spells as well.


Oh, and I'd try to fit Barkskin too even tho your level 2s are a bit packed. Or Tortoise Shell but I can't see you cutting any level 6s so... Hell, you can't even fit Antilife Shell! It's also too bad there's so little room for Scrying but c'est la vie... Panacea is also something you probably can cut since Heal broadly accomplishes all the same goals. This paragraph sums up why I'm coming to the boards. I'm feeling quite frustrated at the loss of versatility. My druid staples elude me and I'm not used to thinking about the druid as a spontaneous caster. With such a limited spell list, I need the biggest bang for my buck--and I have to try to have spells that are worth casting again and again that don't consume too many resources (exp damage, ability damage/drain, expensive materials, etc.)

What should we replace panacea with?


EDIT: Oh yeah, you have Greenbound; nevermind Entangle then. Tho it can still be useful; Summons a full-round to get while it's a standard action.
Thanks again. This was really helpful advice.

Amphetryon
2010-10-29, 07:33 AM
80% chance of Complete Divine
20% chance of Complete Adventurer

They really DO blur.

It's Complete Divine. The biggest 'issue' is they don't get a proper animal companion. Oh noes, they only get summons and damage/buff spells to break D&D with, no pet...

Thespianus
2010-10-29, 07:35 AM
For spells:
-Heal is lame (and SNA IV gets you a Unicorn). I'd probably go with Slime Wave (CDiv) instead. Maybe.

Heal is FUN if you battle a lot of undeads, though. ;)

If your DM agrees that the Augment Healing feat also applies to damage to undeads (since it boosts the Positive Energy channelled), it's even better. :)

Tytalus
2010-10-29, 09:01 AM
What level are you starting at? If it's low level, you might want to consider lower-powered alternatives to awesome spells, which you then swap out later.

For example:
- Greater Resistance --> Superior Resistance
- Resist Energy --> Energy Immunity
- Dispel Magic --> Greater Dispel Magic
- Bite of the X --> Bite of the Werebear
etc.

Spells:

Overall, the spell list is solid - pretty much the top spells from the Druid Handbooks. I don't see the need for Sunburst, though, even if it has some utility. Animal Growth is a good choice, but only works on your companion (Greenbons Summoning means your animal summons are plants), so it's less useful that it would normally be. True Seeing becomes non-essential once you have Dragon Wildshape (Deep Dragon), although it's still nice to be able to cast it spontaneously. Don't forget about the annoying material component, though. I'd definitely take Energy Immunity, if only for it's utility and synergy with Dragon Wildshape's immunities/vulnerabilities. I also like having access for Freedom of Movement; when you do need it, you tend to *really* need it. Enhance Wild Shape seems to imply that you are planning on using non-dragon wildshapes a lot. If that's the case, consider dropping Dragon Wildshape (I wouldn't!), otherwise the spell might not be quite as useful. It's great with Aberration Wildshape, though. Murderous Mist is good, but requires some tactical setup, so it's not essential IMHO. Splinterbolt is nice, but looses its oomph at higher levels.

Don't forget to pick up the Swift Concentration skill trick [CS] (for Summon Elemental Monolith).

Feats:

As for feats, I'd strongly consider Companion Spellbond [PHB2], so you can share your powerful buffs with your companion (given some careful maneuvering). Especially since your build seems to put emphasis on the companion. Other options worth considering are Augment Elemental [MoE] (very nice for Summon Elemental Monolith), Summon Elemental (reserve) [CM], Quicken Spell and - if you don't mind 3.0 material - Blindsight [MotW].

General Comments:

Overall, this is a very high-OP build, as you are probably aware. My recommendation is to make very sure that fits with your group. From my experience, most groups/DMs can't handle something like this. There are several things you can do to tone it down slightly, if you like. I'd drop at least Venomfire (acknowledged as broken, in particular in combination with the fleshraker), fleshraker and Greenbond Summoning - even in a strong group, simply to avoid crossing the line from strong to cheesy. YMMV.

If anything, the build is a bit too much spread out. There's a strong focus on summoning, but also on wildshaping, animal companion buffing, battlefield control, blasting/debuffing. Sure, a druid can do all that, but keep in mind that action economy dictates that you can rarely do everything at once. What would be your first actions when you find yourself in a difficult fight? Buff your companion (you have 2 short-duration spells just for that purpose), blast/debuff, BFC, wildshape, ...?

If you are revising the build, I'd suggest you consider what is most important to you and choose your options based on that.

Eldariel
2010-10-29, 12:46 PM
Giant Vermin is, as you say, a great spell--especially at the upper levels. What would you pull to put it in. Perhaps it is a spell I could rotate in at 16th or 18th level--or would you suggest sooner. One reason I hesitate to put it in earlier is that I can already summon a nice fighting force with Summon Nature's Ally (and with Initiate of Nature I can have a nice troop of animals/plant creatures supporting me). What do you think.

It's not worthwhile until you can get Colossals. That would be, depending on how much resources you're using, around level 14-18. Once you get Colossals though, it becomes the single most powerful summon in the game; not CR-wise, but when you can use a Colossal Scorpion, well, it matches up rather well to e.g. Ancient Dragon in a brawl. And anything suspectible to grappling is hilariously screwed (funny with e.g. Golems).


Regarding Greater Magic Fang, I'd like to hear more. I think with all the wisdom boost available, it is possible to make poison a very effective spell against many (but certainly not all) threats. Because it attack constitution, it is possible to drop a high Con creature (due to hit point loss) and a low Con creature (due to Con loss).

Ok, let me put it this way: Would you rather have the opponent take Con damage or die? Generally, one action/spell can kill the opponent (e.g. Finger of Death or Baleful Polymorph) and have a higher save DC while at it. Also, anything that's immune to death is generally immune to ability damage too so meh.

Greater Magic Fang, on the other hand, is (on level 15+ - +4 after ~12) +5 to hit and damage on all of yours, and your AC's, (natural) attacks. And any others with possible natural weapons in the party (Psychic Warriors, Unarmed Swordsages, the like).


I agree with you about energy resistance of some kind. I wanted Energy Immunity, but with only three spells at 6th, I wasn't sure what to replace. Those 6th level spells are so good. Perhaps I should exchange snake's swiftness out at 2nd and put in Resist Energy. Or would you suggest replacing a different spell?

Snake's Swiftness is a fair choice eventually. Once Haste becomes commonplace, it is rather useless.


As for the Fort save or die spell, I was thinking that, often, that would be poison, which would allow me more space in the higher level slots. Yet, I agree with the utility of such spells.

Between higher save DC and superior effect, I strongly suggest something you can expect to nuke e.g. Outsiders with. If you can get the save DC into mid 30s, something like a Balor goes down quite easily.


This paragraph sums up why I'm coming to the boards. I'm feeling quite frustrated at the loss of versatility. My druid staples elude me and I'm not used to thinking about the druid as a spontaneous caster. With such a limited spell list, I need the biggest bang for my buck--and I have to try to have spells that are worth casting again and again that don't consume too many resources (exp damage, ability damage/drain, expensive materials, etc.)

What should we replace panacea with?

Baleful Polymorph is a 5, so that's a consideration. It's also a save-or-die without Death-description meaning it works on a lot of stuff.

Tytalus
2010-10-29, 05:18 PM
Ok, let me put it this way: Would you rather have the opponent take Con damage or die? Generally, one action/spell can kill the opponent (e.g. Finger of Death or Baleful Polymorph) and have a higher save DC while at it.

Not so. Due to Poison's unique mechanic for its DC (10 + 1/2 caster level + WIS), it has higher save DCs than Baleful Polymorph at CL 12+.

Other than that, you are right: GMF is the better option. As a long-term buff, it doesn't eat up actions in combat, it helps both you and your companion (and perhaps even a fellow PC), and it doesn't require a melee touch to get off.

Zhalath
2010-10-29, 10:24 PM
Spells:

I'd definitely take Energy Immunity, if only for it's utility and synergy with Dragon Wildshape's immunities/vulnerabilities. I also like having access for Freedom of Movement; when you do need it, you tend to *really* need it.



I second these. Energy Immunity can be amazingly useful (like when opening the Chest of 10000 Joules), and Freedom of Movement saves your bum. It also allows you to not die in water, giving you enough time to turn into a shark or something and murder everything.

ShriekingDrake
2010-10-31, 10:49 AM
What level are you starting at? * * * If you are revising the build, I'd suggest you consider what is most important to you and choose your options based on that.

Thanks all for the excellent feedback so far. There's a lot to comment here on since I last had access to the web. Let me start here.

I don't know at what level we'll be play, yet.

Thanks to Tytalus' suggestion, I'm thinking of the following overall strategy for this druid. I will typically assume an evasive, high Dex form with good mobility. I suspect this will be some kind of flier--until I can assume a dragon form. My goal will be to buff/protect my AC, the animals I control using Initiate of Nature, and my party. My own attacks will generally be on the opposing spell casters or BBEG with a modicum of battlefield control to assist my party. I think, for the most part, this character will not be engaging in a lot of melee directly but rather supporting those who do. But i"m open to suggestions.

ShriekingDrake
2010-10-31, 12:04 PM
I second these. Energy Immunity can be amazingly useful (like when opening the Chest of 10000 Joules), and Freedom of Movement saves your bum. It also allows you to not die in water, giving you enough time to turn into a shark or something and murder everything.

I take both your points here. Which 6th level spell would you suggest dropping for Energy Immunity? This is the level where I'm feeling the most frustration for precisely this purpose. Bite of the Werebear seems like the best candidate to me, but I'd hate to lose it. I've found that it to be such a boost to the effectiveness of an AC that it's worth it, especially the Animal Growthed compaion--but maybe I'm putting too much stock in it here. I suppose one option would be to drop Panacea at fifth level and take the lesser but still effective Bite of the Weretiger there. In dropping Panacea, I could consider taking something like Healing Lorecall instead of Snake's Swiftness, mass or Resist Energy at 2nd. This would let me help, during battle my AC, animal followers, and party members a bit.

Regarding Freedom of Movement, 4th level is another very tight level because there are so many great spells there. I'm not sure what I'd drop there to add freedom of movement. I suppose a ring could address this. Another option might be to take Heart of Water at 3rd level, dropping, say, Energy Vortex, which I have found to be a useful spell. Then, I can cast this most of the day buff and have FoM as a swift action but for a shorter duration.

ShriekingDrake
2010-10-31, 02:00 PM
Thanks.


It looks pretty good, but were I you, I'd squeese in Quicken Spell +Rapid Metamagic instead of something else.
Forgive me for being un-edified here, but can explain to me the synergy here.


For spells:
-Heal is lame (and SNA IV gets you a Unicorn). I'd probably go with Slime Wave (CDiv) instead. Maybe. Really? I like heal, especially in bringing a near dead animal companion or party member back to fighting status. The Unicorn is a nice recovery of some points, but it's really nothing compared to heal. By the time you get seventh level spells lots of creatures get to fly over that wave and 8th level is chock full of those area of effect stick it to you spells. Don't mistake me, I love slime wave and have used it. But given the limited choices I have, I think Heal is likely to be much more useful--especially if I drop panacea, as has been suggested. I could be persuaded.


-Sunburst is very niche. Unless you expect a lot of vampires, I'd go with Leonals Roar or Bombardment (if only for the "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies!").Good point. Both are great spells. Shame that the only really good spells at 8th level seem to be these AoE kaboom spells.


-Antilife Shell is hilarious when it applies. I love this spell. What would you drop at sixth level to make room for this. As you can see above--Energy Immunity is likely to join the list. Hard to argue with the utility of Greater Dispel Magic, given its broad applicability. And Superior Resistance is, at least to my way of thinking, a staple at this level.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful perspectives. I appreciate it.

ShriekingDrake
2010-11-01, 10:35 AM
True Seeing becomes non-essential once you have Dragon Wildshape (Deep Dragon), although it's still nice to be able to cast it spontaneously. Don't forget about the annoying material component, though.

You make an excellent point here. I'm thinking of replacing True Seeing with Control Weather, or I suppose Animate Plants might be good as well.

ShriekingDrake
2010-11-03, 12:48 PM
Thanks for all the help so far. I'd welcome other advice if it is to be had.

ShriekingDrake
2010-11-09, 08:35 AM
Based on the advice I've received so far, I'm considering this.

0--Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds, Dawn, Detect Magic, Guidance, Light, Mending, Read Magic, Resistance
1--Aspect of the Wolf, Healthful Rest, Impeding Stones, Obscuring Mist, Winged Watcher
2--Barkskin, Blinding Spittle, Bone Talisman, Splinterbolt, Kelpstrand
3--Heart of Water, Poison, Spiritjaws, Venomfire
4--Enhance Wild Shape, Langour, Sheltered Vitality, Superior Magic Fang
5--Animal Growth, Bite of the Weretiger, Control Winds, Owl's Insight
6--Energy Immunity, Greater Dispel Magic, Superior Resistance
7--Heal, Master Earth, True Seeing
8--Bombardment, Frostfell, Red Tide
9--Nature's Avatar, Shapechange, Summon Elemental Monolith.

ShriekingDrake
2010-11-13, 04:51 PM
Any more thoughts?

isotunknown
2011-02-05, 08:05 PM
As you know, because you posted on my thread about the topic. I like the Heart of Spells. I think these could be useful because they are multi-faceted when you have limited spell choices.

ShriekingDrake
2011-02-11, 11:18 AM
These might be a possibility. They'd take up a slot on levels 2-5. The thing is that I have to dedicate some time to thinking about the order in which I'd add spells. Sometimes, even a really good spell will come in too late to be worth it because I've already added spells that obviate it. It's possible the the "heart of" spells could be useful if I added them in the last possible slots on levels 2-5. Of course, only two of them--water and earth--are really good. But all four together give you Fortification for hours/level and that is some good.

Qwertystop
2011-02-11, 11:34 AM
Do you think the Druid ACF (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186028) I homebrewed could help? It's also in my sig. I'm not sure, because the only person to post on it didn't seem to have read it very much, but I think it may be useful for this.
(/pleaforcritique)

EDIT: The Animate Water/Fire/Earth/Air spells could be useful too. If I remember right, they turn a small puddle/flame/pile of dirt/bit of air into an Elementid Swarm.
Or the spell that animates the water in an enemy's body, but I can't remember if it's a Druid spell. Does damage, and if the target dies a water elemental rises from their corpse. Good finisher.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2011-02-11, 11:58 AM
Why don't you have Creeping Cold on that list? Drop Splinterbolt (it makes regular ranged attacks, not ranged touch attacks) and get Creeping Cold, use it with a Lesser Rod of Extend to deal 21d6 damage at 3rd level.

ShriekingDrake
2011-02-11, 04:34 PM
Why don't you have Creeping Cold on that list? Drop Splinterbolt (it makes regular ranged attacks, not ranged touch attacks) and get Creeping Cold, use it with a Lesser Rod of Extend to deal 21d6 damage at 3rd level.

Alas, my DM does not extend Creeping Cold that way, but it's still worth consideration, especially with your observation about the type of ranged attack. An important difference is that Splinterbolt is much more likely to drop a foe round 1. Nonetheless, with some foes, Creeping Cold is the way to go. It's a solid suggestion.