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Sir Giacomo
2010-10-29, 12:35 AM
Hi everyone,

for some build testing purposes, I'd like to gather opinions on what the most broken/powerful monsters are from the MM for their respective CR.

I'm trying to identify the most broken ones for each CR step from 1-20. For instance (from what I have read so far here) Allip for CR3.

Thanks for any support!

- Giacomo

EDIT:
Current list:
(constantly updated)

below CR 1: Kobolds, Orcs, Stirges
CR 1:
CR 2: Vargouille, Choker, Blink Dog
CR 3: Allip, Cockatrice, Ogre, Shadow, Dire Ape, Ghast
CR 4:
CR 5: Troll, Basilisk, Winter Wolf
CR 6: Tendriculos, Gauth
CR 7: Aboleth, Remorhaz, Phasm
CR 8: Behir, Bodak, Mindflayer
CR 9:
CR 10: Rakshasa
CR 11: Hezrou, Devourer
CR 12: Frost Worm
CR 13: Ghaele, Ice Devil (Gelugon), Beholder
CR 14:
CR 15:
CR 16: Planetar
CR 17:
CR 18:
CR 19:
CR 20:

For all respective CR:
Dragons, evil outsiders that duplicate powerful spells as SLA, aberrations and pyro/cyrohydras

A link for monsters widely felt wrongly CRed (mostly non-core) can be found here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166956)

Endarire
2010-10-29, 12:44 AM
Ogres are nasty buggers for their CR. Maybe it's because I like using 'em when the party is level 1.

Pyro/Cryohydras hurt. It may be metamorphosis + Metamorphic Transfer, but being able to breathe Xd6 damage every d4 rounds hurts.

Bayar
2010-10-29, 12:48 AM
Cocatrice's are nasty to use against a low level party, petrification being basically a SoD at that level even with the low save DC (CR 3).

Boci
2010-10-29, 12:51 AM
Broken when used by the DM, broken when used by the players, or just broken in general? For example Allips and Shadows are a tough fight, but what makes them broken is when plauers use them to stat drain powerful monsters who lack the magical weapons to harm them.
Additionally, such self reproducing undead can completly wipe out a town, which can be very frustrating for the Dm, and also for the players if they wake up in a town full of undead hungry for their levels.

Callista
2010-10-29, 12:52 AM
Vargouille, CR 2.

First it paralyzes you, then it infects you and gives you a single day to obtain a 3rd-level spell which probably none of your party can cast yet. If you can't, you turn into a varguoille yourself. Nasty.

Oh, and for fractional CRs: Kobolds. Just... kobolds.

Kantolin
2010-10-29, 01:26 AM
I would like to cite Frost Worms, which strike me as 'Make a knowledge check or die'.

They appear out of burrows which you're not likely to be able to detect. Start iwth a breath attack that does about enough damage to drop the wizard. Then don't have enough hit points to survive even an unoptimized party's two rounds of wailing on it. Then explodes in enough damage to kill the cleric, especially with the breath attack that just occured.

I've had this thing TPK my party quite a few times from various DMs, to a very frustrating level. After awhile, I started slightly metagaming - the default reaction is 'Holy crap drop him quickly!' and mine became '>_> Let me suspiciously cast protection from cold. Not resist energy cold... protection from energy'.

And after awhile, I just started, well. Hoping someone made their knoweldge checks, or just shrugging and accepting the probable TPK.

Stupid Frost Worms. Balors would be similar, but at level 20 you can deal with it a lot more effectively.

AslanCross
2010-10-29, 01:38 AM
I think most of the ability-damage undead are very nasty. Allips, especially, since they deal Wis drain, and they're only CR 3.

imperialspectre
2010-10-29, 02:04 AM
Generally speaking, monsters that get casting at or close to their CR (let alone above) are the most powerful, because generally they have the power of a full caster of their "level" plus additional abilities.

For example, the planetar is probably the single most overpowered monster for its CR in the book. It's CR 16, which means that according to the rules it should be as powerful as a 16th-level cleric. Instead, it has the casting of a 17th-level cleric (a HUGE leap in power), much better base stats (including full BAB and a high Reflex save), and at-will SLAs like waves of exhaustion. The bottom line is that it's exceptionally difficult for a 16th-level party to beat one - beating four separate planetars before their next rest would be ridiculously impossible absent loops or chains of some sort. Other good examples of this kind of brokenness include nymphs, ghaeles, and trumpet archons.

Similarly, creatures with SLAs that duplicate powerful spells or hard-to-counter spells tend to be extremely powerful. Aboleths, most evil outsiders, and higher-level elementals all exemplify this type of power. It isn't quite as broken as the spellcasting kind, because it's less flexible and relies on artificially inflated numbers (like evil outsiders casting blasphemy at absurdly high caster levels) to overpower PCs. Still, these abilities leave the standard 4-person party down a couple people very quickly.

Eldariel
2010-10-29, 02:49 AM
Allip and Shadow can be quite problematic. Not many parties on that level have much that can hurt them (according to the DMG, they're an "Ok" encounter for level 1 party) and their ability to attack from within walls doesn't help either.

Dragons, pretty much all of them, are completely ridiculous for their CR. I more or less calculated that if you build your party with 2 Gray Elf Wizards (with Enlarge Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Color Spray and Grease prepared + a scroll or two) and 2 Human Barbarians (with Improved Trip and 18 Str), you can somehow deal with most CR 5 encounters on level 1 expending all your resources (as it should be; Level + 4 encounters should be challenging), but breath strafing Dragons? Yeah, no. Those things have way, way too much HP, too many immunities, too much HD, too fast movement and too strong breath weapon to expect to take them on that early; spread out and shoot it won't even so much as scratch it. Though they get a bit less overwhelming later on.

Solar and Planetar are pretty insane, though Solar's CR reflects that (of course, if we account for the fact that Solar can pick up Epic Spellcasting, all hell breaks loose). Planetar is a level 17 caster on CR 16. So apparently a level 12 party could expect to defeat one no problem. Even not accounting for something like Holy Word trollollololo, that's just a bit much.


There are some Closet Troll monsters like Hydras. Especially Cryo and Pyrohydras can just appear and boomboomheadshotkillingspreemultikillultrakillMMMM MONSSTERKILL your entire damn party with a well-placed breath weapon but if they can't get the jump on you, they're really...whatever. Beholder is another such creature; its offense is completely disproportionate to its defense (it has like 7 "Save-or-Don't-Fight" eye rays, Slow and 2 damaging ones). Especially with the damn Anti-Magic Ray. And the good part? None of that **** takes the thing's actions! It shoots its lazers as a free action and then it can like ready action to keep its AMF Lazer focused on a target or whatever.

Of course, its save DCs are far from scary (DC 17 lol) but rolling 7 saves is still a bit bad because dice have natural 1s. Let alone Advanced Beholder; guess what, its eye rays' DCs grow as you advance one! CR 14 could already have DC 21s or so (one point more in Cha, get a bunch of HD). And they can wear magic items; if they have a +6 Cha-item as treasure...

Sir Giacomo
2010-10-29, 09:37 AM
Thanks everyone! Keep the ideas coming, I'll gradually compile and edit a list in the OP.

- Giacomo

Keld Denar
2010-10-29, 10:52 AM
I'd say Trolls and Dire Apes. If you fight one as an EL = APL+2 or +3 encounter (DMG defined "difficult" encounter), NOBODY has enough HP to survive a full attack due to rend damage. My current RL gaming group lovingly refers to Dire Apes as "die rapes" after their entire party was slaughtered by one.

Granted, once you understand the potency of their full attacks, you'll do your best to "kite" them, keeping them from performing a full attack while chipping away with ranged attacks, but still...rend attacks do NOT feel good!

mostlyharmful
2010-10-29, 11:03 AM
You could also do with some borken the other way, monsters who fail to live up to their CR, such as Ogre Mage or the big T.

OrionFaarlane
2010-10-29, 11:08 AM
In most low level or low magic game, anything that drains or damages any ability score can turn into an OP monster.

If they don't have a way to cure damage or repair drain, and you target a caster or cleric who loses spells... consider the rest of the game that day a 'extremely tough session'.

DonEsteban
2010-10-29, 11:29 AM
Let this inspire you: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=166956

jiriku
2010-10-29, 12:04 PM
The behir and remorhaz are both able to grab, swallow, and deal ridiculous amounts of damage to a character very quickly. These monsters can dice up a level-appropriate party very quickly. Don't know if I'd call them broken, but for CR 8 and cR 7, they are very tough customers against a party that cannot exploit their weaknesses (low Will save, lack of flight or ranged attacks).

Valameer
2010-10-29, 12:20 PM
The bodak (CR 8) is a poorly built monster, leading to bad situations.

First, it's obscure. Not everyone can recognise a bodak based on a description of one. They look like grey aliens or doppelgangers, or some sort of new extraplanar creature (which they also are), not undead.

Second, it has odd defenses. DR 10/cold iron? Immune to electricity? Resistance to fire and acid 10? None of this seems in the least bit intuitive to me. Why is it immune to electricity? Just random... And it doesn't appear to be undead, so the undead traits (immune to mind affecting, no con score, hurt by cure spells) might take someone off guard. Every other undead creature LOOKS or SMELLS undead.

Third, it's only attack it a save or die DC 15 fort save. That's all it can do. It has enough intelligence to target the weaker (low fort save) members of the party first.

This doesn't make for a fun encounter at all. Either you walk away without a scratch going "What the heck was that? An alien?" or half the party dies due to bad luck on the dice. Heaven forbid you ever run into a gang of them all at once. At CR 8, getting a resurrection will be a huge pain, so there is a good chance it's perma-death for those unfortunate characters.

So unlike getting mauled by dire apes, or ogres, or some overwhelming-but-interesting fight, the bodak simply ends you. "Rolled a 6 on your fort save this round? Ok, you're dead, make a new character. Everyone else, the alien stands there doing nothing and Greg dies. Who goes next?"

Pretty deadly, but very poorly designed.

EDIT: Also, any humanoid killed by a bodak's gaze rises as a bodak in 24 hours. Throw one of these guys into a small village - it's almost as bad as shadows.

Ernir
2010-10-29, 12:21 PM
Most of the hideous stuff has been covered, I think, here's some more situational ones...

Stirges can be really brutal. Something that *shluuuuuuuurp*s away your Con for the low price of 1/2 CR can get ugly fast.

Chokers, when they use the tactics in their monster entry. Choker in the open? No threat. Choker that drops down and has attack-constricted the Wizard 5 times before the rest of the party can act is a bit nastier. CR 2.
Then there's the issue of players Shapechange-ing (or lots earlier out of core, ASA/Metamorphic Transferring) into Chokers and getting their supernatural Quickness.

Basilisks (CR 5) have their (admittedly low DC) gaze SoD. Apart from that, it sucks, but if you get unlucky on the dice before you chew through its HP, your party is in bad shape. And those who failed the save are friggin' petrified forever.

Orcs and Kobolds can be deadly simply due to the way CR is calculated.

jmbrown
2010-10-29, 12:36 PM
I hate hezrou so much. I hate blasphemy so much. I hate anything with caster levels 2 levels higher than their CR.

jiriku
2010-10-29, 01:28 PM
Orcs and Kobolds can be deadly simply due to the way CR is calculated.

Good point about the orcs. Two 1st-level orc warriors are a CR1 challenge, but with their high Strength and falchion, they have about a 10% chance per attack of scoring a crit, and will deal an average of 18 damage on a crit. That's enough to outright kill the party rogue or wizard, and will drop even the raging barbarian from full health to negatives. At the same time, their terrible saves and iffy AC make them pretty much glass cannons, so a fight with those orcs could easily result in either a flawless PC victory or a brutal battle with one or more PC deaths.

Blackfang108
2010-10-29, 04:49 PM
The bodak (CR 8) is a poorly built monster, leading to bad situations.

First, it's obscure. Not everyone can recognise a bodak based on a description of one. They look like grey aliens or doppelgangers, or some sort of new extraplanar creature (which they also are), not undead.

Second, it has odd defenses. DR 10/cold iron? Immune to electricity? Resistance to fire and acid 10? None of this seems in the least bit intuitive to me. Why is it immune to electricity? Just random... And it doesn't appear to be undead, so the undead traits (immune to mind affecting, no con score, hurt by cure spells) might take someone off guard. Every other undead creature LOOKS or SMELLS undead.

Third, it's only attack it a save or die DC 15 fort save. That's all it can do. It has enough intelligence to target the weaker (low fort save) members of the party first.

This doesn't make for a fun encounter at all. Either you walk away without a scratch going "What the heck was that? An alien?" or half the party dies due to bad luck on the dice. Heaven forbid you ever run into a gang of them all at once. At CR 8, getting a resurrection will be a huge pain, so there is a good chance it's perma-death for those unfortunate characters.

So unlike getting mauled by dire apes, or ogres, or some overwhelming-but-interesting fight, the bodak simply ends you. "Rolled a 6 on your fort save this round? Ok, you're dead, make a new character. Everyone else, the alien stands there doing nothing and Greg dies. Who goes next?"

Pretty deadly, but very poorly designed.

EDIT: Also, any humanoid killed by a bodak's gaze rises as a bodak in 24 hours. Throw one of these guys into a small village - it's almost as bad as shadows.

I have to second this one. We once had a single Bodak take out 3 members of a five man level 7-8 party in as many rounds. (our fighter with a +11 Fort rolled a 1...).

The only 2 characters left standing couldn't overcome it's DR without a well rolled crit.

At level 8, this is more than a bit much.

Darrin
2010-10-29, 04:52 PM
That damn crab. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)

Even worse?

That damn crab that your PCs can carry in their pocket. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040320a)

Sorry. Wasn't paying attention. Didn't notice "Core".

hamishspence
2010-10-29, 04:57 PM
The OP said "in core".

That said, if non-core is opened up, a much longer list can be made- Adamantine Horrors in MM2 (CR 9, at-will disintegrate, implosion, disjunction) are the first to spring to my mind.

Augmented Lurk
2010-10-29, 05:03 PM
Phasm. It has 15 hit dice and can use polymorph at will as a 15th level caster.

CR 7.

HunterOfJello
2010-10-29, 05:04 PM
Illithid can kill an entire party pretty easily if they fail their initial saves. The save or I eat your brain aspect is kinda broken.

Soranar
2010-10-29, 05:50 PM
Mentioned before that I second

Kobolds are insanely dangerous for their CR

Dragons are a pain


but my personal bane is a ghast

CR 3, 3 attack with paralysis (DC 15 + CHA)
stench (DC 15 or be sickened)

even with a very high AC, they have 3 chances per round of hitting you anyway and inflicting paralysis and at that level DC 15 is really high

Raimun
2010-10-29, 06:05 PM
Tarrasque is definitely broken. Intended to be but it still is.

Runestar
2010-10-29, 06:15 PM
A lot of the monsters mentioned seem a tad too fragile to qualify as overpowered, in my book. They are like the equivalent of glass-cannons, how the fight goes against a mindflayer seems more like a race to see who wins initiative first.

Even the ghaele, has just 65hp at cr13. A maximized orb already deals 90 damage...


Phasm. It has 15 hit dice and can use polymorph at will as a 15th level caster. CR 7.

And you find that the forms they can polymorph into aren't really any better than cr7 themselves. For instance, while they can change into a fire giant (cr10), they lack its fullplate and greatsword, and so would have a crappier AC and damage output.

Are there any overpowered forms it can abuse? Or would it be better to simply use said monster instead?


Generally speaking, monsters that get casting at or close to their CR (let alone above) are the most powerful, because generally they have the power of a full caster of their "level" plus additional abilities.

I actually take that as an indication that npc spellcasters are too weak for their cr. So this means that a human cleric17 would not be cr17, but less (probably cr16 or even 15, since they don't get any of the planetar's special abilities).

As for planetars, I find their regeneration harder to deal with than their spellcasting. How many good parties lug unholy weapons around? :smallamused:

Same for pyro/cryo hydras. Sure, they can have up to 12 breath weapons, but remember that resistance applies to each separately, so simply having fire/cold resistance5 will hedge out a large part of that damage, making them just over-cr'ed hydras.

I second the remorhaz, especially if you have it ambush the party by bursting out of the ice, swallowing one of the PCs, then burrowing away. Rinse and repeat. :smalltongue:

In addition, what about high HD/low cr monsters in tandem with non-associated class rules? I realise they don't come prebuilt, but you can get some potent results out of them.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-29, 09:10 PM
Solar and Planetar are pretty insane, though Solar's CR reflects that (of course, if we account for the fact that Solar can pick up Epic Spellcasting, all hell breaks loose). Planetar is a level 17 caster on CR 16. So apparently a level 12 party could expect to defeat one no problem. Even not accounting for something like Holy Word trollollololo, that's just a bit much.


You do know an easy fight is CR = level right?
CR +4 is a difficult fight that means you will likely lose someone.

So Holy Word fits really well here at CR 16.


[QUOTE=Runestar;9659617]A lot of the monsters mentioned seem a tad too fragile to qualify as overpowered, in my book. They are like the equivalent of glass-cannons, how the fight goes against a mindflayer seems more like a race to see who wins initiative first.

Even the ghaele, has just 65hp at cr13. A maximized orb already deals 90 damage...

Orbs have to hurt them first. Always on lesser Globe of Invulnerability means no 3rd level or lower.
You need Heighten or an actual 4th level spell.

Runestar
2010-10-29, 09:30 PM
Orbs have to hurt them first. Always on lesser Globe of Invulnerability means no 3rd level or lower.
You need Heighten or an actual 4th level spell.

Orbs are 4th lv spells, last I checked. :smalltongue:

Seriously, how long do you expect it to last at just 65hp, even with aid active?

Ilmryn
2010-10-29, 09:31 PM
Orbs have to hurt them first. Always on lesser Globe of Invulnerability means no 3rd level or lower.
You need Heighten or an actual 4th level spell.

Last time I checked, orbs were 4th level spells.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-29, 09:35 PM
Last time I checked, orbs were 4th level spells.

I was thinking lesssr Orbs because since lower levels easier to maximize. But yeah, non-lesser do get through.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-10-29, 09:47 PM
What about templates? Does the Fiendish or Celestial template really warrant an increase in CR? Most Fiendish or Celestial animals will basically fight the same, except that they have a (one time use) smite attack, and some minor energy resistances.

Are there any templates that are under CR'd?

Runestar
2010-10-29, 09:57 PM
Are there any templates that are under CR'd?

They could be, but tend to be quite situational. Half-fiend comes to mind, on high-HD monsters, their blasphemy SLA will auto-kill any party. No amount of cr can properly balance out the monsters, so it might be better to just overhaul the half-fiend template.


Does the Fiendish or Celestial template really warrant an increase in CR? Most Fiendish or Celestial animals will basically fight the same, except that they have a (one time use) smite attack, and some minor energy resistances.

The sr can be fairly useful, but again, it is useful only on high HD, low cr monsters. Though I agree that +2cr seems a tad expensive, compared to half-fiend. +1cr at most.

In core, I think templates tend to be quite overpriced, especially lich and half-fiend. Half-dragon seems fair at +2cr, netting flight and a host of physical augmentations.

Zhalath
2010-10-29, 10:03 PM
I hate hezrou so much. I hate blasphemy so much. I hate anything with caster levels 2 levels higher than their CR.


Any living creature (except other demons) within 10 feet must succeed on a DC 24 Fortitude save or be nauseated for as long as it remains within the affected area and for 1d4 rounds afterward. Creatures that successfully save are sickened for as long as they remain in the area.
Pop that on there too. Unlucky roll, and your rogue's taking half actions (and I never see rogues succeed any Fort save of any importance). Success, and you have an obnoxious penalty that you have to keep adding. While you're getting chaos hammer'd and blasphemy'd into the abyssal dirt.

For CR 11, devourers. If its special attack connects (with a +15 on to hit), congratulations, you're down one party member for the rest of the fight. Let's hope he wasn't the cleric or somebody with undead-killing power, because you've entered the Elemental Plane of Pain And Books Thrown At DM.
Gods, I hope I never have to fight a pair of them.

RelentlessImp
2010-10-29, 11:07 PM
What about templates? Does the Fiendish or Celestial template really warrant an increase in CR? Most Fiendish or Celestial animals will basically fight the same, except that they have a (one time use) smite attack, and some minor energy resistances.

Are there any templates that are under CR'd?

Most of the templates in core are actually under-CR'd and cost too much in terms of LA.

A blink dog is under-CR'd (2) due to the at-will free action blink and dimension door. You can't stop it, and you can barely hit the damn thing, especially at 2nd level. You don't ever get dex bonus to your AC against them, and the only hard counter against them at an appropriate level is magic missile.

Gauth, Beholders and Chokers deserve a special mention for breaking the action economy.

EDIT: A winter wolf can rip through an unprepared party. They deserve a mention, too.

Ragitsu
2010-10-29, 11:22 PM
With their ability to easily cause TPKs and players to scream in frustration, Shadows have a lot of bang for their buck.

Eldariel
2010-10-29, 11:27 PM
than cr7 themselves. For instance, while they can change into a fire giant (cr10), they lack its fullplate and greatsword, and so would have a crappier AC and damage output.

Are there any overpowered forms it can abuse? Or would it be better to simply use said monster instead?

The funny thing is, it's been errata'd to be able to turn into any form Larger or smaller. Which includes Horned Devil, Ice Devil, Razor Boar, etc. Those...tend to have rather good stats and rather scary special attacks.


I actually take that as an indication that npc spellcasters are too weak for their cr. So this means that a human cleric17 would not be cr17, but less (probably cr16 or even 15, since they don't get any of the planetar's special abilities).

I find at its core, CR means "CR X creature is an even fight for a character of level X." A party of level X is supposed to walk over monsters of their CR burning only few resources with no real risk of death. Of course, due to the way monsters work, their varied abilities, strengths and weaknesses, it really can't work that way but that seems to be the logic.

Keld Denar
2010-10-29, 11:32 PM
Oh, yea Gauth...those are what, CR3?

So...2 Gauths is a EL 5 encounter, 4 is an EL 7 encounter, 8 is an EL9 encounter. An EL 9 is something you'd expect to see at character level 5-6 for a sufficiently difficult fight. 8 Gauths with Scorching Ray = 32d6 fire damage. Hope everyone has FR10 or more, or those puppies will take out 1-2 party members per round with focused fire!

Fizban
2010-10-30, 03:50 AM
Most of the templates in core are actually under-CR'd and cost too much in terms of LA.

A blink dog is under-CR'd (2) due to the at-will free action blink and dimension door. You can't stop it, and you can barely hit the damn thing, especially at 2nd level. You don't ever get dex bonus to your AC against them, and the only hard counter against them at an appropriate level is magic missile.

I'm not so sure. Granted, I've never fought them myself, but they deal a measly 1d6 damage with a +4 attack bonus, once per round. That shouldn't be more than a 50/50 chance of 1d6 even on the least armored members of the party. As for being impossible to hit, that's what readied actions are for. Even though it's a free action, once you trigger your readied action it's now your turn and not the blink dog's, so it can't teleport away from your swing. Even better, if you readied in response to an attack and the dog lowered it's blinking so it wouldn't suffer a miss chance, it can't re-raise the blinking either. All you need to counter blink dogs is a chain shirt or mage armor and a readied action.

RelentlessImp
2010-10-30, 04:04 AM
I'm not so sure. Granted, I've never fought them myself, but they deal a measly 1d6 damage with a +4 attack bonus, once per round. That shouldn't be more than a 50/50 chance of 1d6 even on the least armored members of the party. As for being impossible to hit, that's what readied actions are for. Even though it's a free action, once you trigger your readied action it's now your turn and not the blink dog's, so it can't teleport away from your swing. Even better, if you readied in response to an attack and the dog lowered it's blinking so it wouldn't suffer a miss chance, it can't re-raise the blinking either. All you need to counter blink dogs is a chain shirt or mage armor and a readied action.

Good points; except: he could end it for a better chance to hit, but he's not going to. So you're always going to have a 50% miss chance. So you have a 50% chance, and he's got a slightly-worse-than-50%-chance (50% chance for AC, +20% for his own blink being unpredictable).

A few blink dogs setting up flanking and behaving like intelligent creatures could pose a serious problem - but when they start running low on health, they're just going to dimension door away rather than risk dying to some punk adventurers. And you're not going to catch them - not if they're a level-appropriate encounter.

Not to mention these guys are immune to most forms of BFC due to that dimension door, as a great deal of BFC relies on you being in an area of effect for a duration.

Start advancing these guys and blink dogs could even be a possible threat to a mid-level adventuring party in numbers. As it stands, though, unadvanced, they're under-CR'd just for the difficulty a level-appropriate party will run into killing them.

Sir Giacomo
2010-10-30, 05:16 AM
The list is starting to fill, thanks to everyone!

Interesting to see that CR 2/3, but also CR 5 and 7 seem to contain more monsters that jump to mind that could be quite deadly - maybe also mirroring a typical range of CR for many groups (i.e. not many playing beyond level 12 or so).

Question: I do not have the MM here right now, what are the CR of mindflayer/illithid and beholder? I think it was CR 7 and 13, but I am not sure. Will update the list with them as soon as I know.

- Giacomo

PS: do not forget that blink dogs get +2 to attack when blinking, as per the spell ...
PPS: is gauth core/part of MM? I do not remember...

Augmented Lurk
2010-10-30, 06:41 AM
And you find that the forms they can polymorph into aren't really any better than cr7 themselves. For instance, while they can change into a fire giant (cr10), they lack its fullplate and greatsword, and so would have a crappier AC and damage output.

Are there any overpowered forms it can abuse? Or would it be better to simply use said monster instead?

Really? Being able to use what many consider one of the most broken abilities in the game to change into something with twice as many hit dice as its CR isn't overpowered? Could you imagine if a level seven Wizard could polymorph into a 15 hit dice monster?


The funny thing is, it's been errata'd to be able to turn into any form Larger or smaller. Which includes Horned Devil, Ice Devil, Razor Boar, etc. Those...tend to have rather good stats and rather scary special attacks.

True, according to the SRD it's now an Alternate Form effect, which is even worse. A Phasm could actually turn into a Planetar and (depending on how you interpret RAW) gain 17th level Cleric Casting. At CR 7.

Runestar
2010-10-30, 07:19 AM
True, according to the SRD it's now an Alternate Form effect, which is even worse. A Phasm could actually turn into a Planetar and (depending on how you interpret RAW) gain 17th level Cleric Casting. At CR 7.

Alternate form...since when...:smallconfused:

Though you just get its extraordinary special attacks. So a phasm'ed horned devil has 97hp, +11bab, 30str/25dex/25con, 35AC and 4 natural attacks at +20/+15/+15/+15. But no other special abilities/defenses. Making it a fair tough bruiser. Wow...:smallredface:

Though with abberation HD, it certainly can be advanced on the cheap.

RelentlessImp
2010-10-30, 07:35 AM
PPS: is gauth core/part of MM? I do not remember...

Yes. They're lesser beholders (aka Beholderkin, as per Lords of Madness). They're under the Beholder heading, just before True Beholders.

jmbrown
2010-10-30, 07:45 AM
Pretty much any creature that's huge or larger will be more difficult than its CR unless the party can fly or manage to fight it from afar. Behir and remorhaz has already been mentioned. Tendriculos is one of those "uh, what?" monsters in that I've only seen it used once ever (by me). It has regeneration 10 (blunt and acid), improved grab, will swallow you whole (even large creatures), paralyze you while swallowed, and you have to make two grapple checks to escape while still being subject to the DC 20 fort save to resist 3d6 paralysis each round. P.s., you're not going to succeed on the grapple check.

Tendriculos is CR 6.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-10-30, 08:04 AM
What about monsters with non-associated class levels? A level of monk only adds 1/2 CR to any monster (it's considered on par with an NPC class :smalltongue:), but they get Wis to AC, an upgrade to the elite array, +2 to all saves, a bonus feat, some minor weapon proficiencies, and an upgrade on unarmed damage (not sure how that interacts with natural attacks).

Or, grab a level of expert for +2 Will, a smattering of skills, and simple weapon and light armor proficiency.

And these things don't really add to CR at all. Huh.

RelentlessImp
2010-10-30, 08:34 AM
What about monsters with non-associated class levels? A level of monk only adds 1/2 CR to any monster (it's considered on par with an NPC class :smalltongue:), but they get Wis to AC, an upgrade to the elite array, +2 to all saves, a bonus feat, some minor weapon proficiencies, and an upgrade on unarmed damage (not sure how that interacts with natural attacks).
Hint: It doesn't interact at all.



Or, grab a level of expert for +2 Will, a smattering of skills, and simple weapon and light armor proficiency.

And these things don't really add to CR at all. Huh.

Because proficiencies and a +2 one way or another doesn't matter. No matter how many weapon proficiencies someone has, chances are they're only using one of them to attack you with, so they might as well only have proficiency in that weapon. Same with armor.

AC is mostly a joke (BAB scales faster) and Elite Array monsters are typically dumping mental stats unless they're casters, so Wis to AC isn't as big a boost as you think. Monk belongs on that 1/2 CR list. I'd go so far as to say it'd actually reduce CR, because you just wasted a level in something that provides minor benefits that don't affect your effectiveness overall.

Grynning
2010-10-30, 09:58 AM
Quick note on the Choker - Pathfinder's version fixes them pretty well by limiting their Quickness ability to move actions.

If you want to include Epic Monsters (I know, Epic level stuff is inherently broken), I have a special hatred for the Lava Wight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/lavawight.htm). Permanent HP loss that absolutely can never ever be healed. My DM for that game was a sadist.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-30, 10:09 AM
Quick note on the Choker - Pathfinder's version fixes them pretty well by limiting their Quickness ability to move actions.

If you want to include Epic Monsters (I know, Epic level stuff is inherently broken), I have a special hatred for the Lava Wight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/lavawight.htm). Permanent HP loss that absolutely can never ever be healed. My DM for that game was a sadist.

Granted it is CR 23. You could beat it when epic easily (epic magic buffs)). Although as a boss fight for a CR 19, it would be deadly.

Grynning
2010-10-30, 10:14 AM
Granted it is CR 23. You could beat it when epic easily (epic magic buffs)). Although as a boss fight for a CR 19, it would be deadly.

I believe we had just hit 20 when we fought them. Two of them. And I was a Fighter.

Grommen
2010-10-30, 10:25 AM
Good point about the orcs. Two 1st-level orc warriors are a CR1 challenge, but with their high Strength and falchion, they have about a 10% chance per attack of scoring a crit, and will deal an average of 18 damage on a crit. That's enough to outright kill the party rogue or wizard, and will drop even the raging barbarian from full health to negatives. At the same time, their terrible saves and iffy AC make them pretty much glass cannons, so a fight with those orcs could easily result in either a flawless PC victory or a brutal battle with one or more PC deaths.

In the 3.0 version they packed two handed Ork Axes that did 1d10+4 damage. First time I DM'ed a 3rd ed game, I sicked 4 of these on a party of 3 Dwarven warriors of the Ironballz clan(Steely, Frozan, and Rok'ard). Know why you have never head of the Ironballz? Cause they all died, and were so ashamed the entire clan stopped existing. 1/2 CR my but :smallfurious:

Seems to me that in a normal non high magic campaign, any monster that has rediculas Strength, Orks, Ogres, Dire Monsters, Some of the Giants, etc. They have the ability to shreed players at will. Something I used the other day, can't remember the monster, but it was a CR12. It had several attacks at +22 to hit, and did like 20 something average damage. Had something like 35 strength. How the hell!

"We can't repel firepower of that magnitude!"

Thrawn183
2010-10-30, 10:37 AM
I had the pleasure of using an Ice Demon against my party once. CR 13 with Wall of Ice at will.

The problem? Wall of Ice leaves a damaging sheet of cold in its place even once it is broken. The Ice Demon can just throw up wall after wall after wall and then teleport around them. Did I mention it has Persistant Image at will? This thing will be hiding behind some kind of illusion, using spell-like abilities that makes no sound to use while the party is trying to fight who knows what.

As if that wasn't enough, it has regeneration/good. Yeah, because every party has the paladin and/or good aligned cleric to deal with that. There aren't any evil parties without DR/evil at all. No neutral parties either. Only people running around with super cold resistance and holy weapons.

Even if a party has access to spells that grant energy resistance, the Ice Devil can put out so many walls to just burn through it.

An Ice Devil has mental scores of: Int 22, Wis 22, Cha 20. This thing is really smart. It should be played to the maximum of its ability at all times.

The only way to handle one of these consistently is with a combination of true seeing, energy immunity and holy weapons. If one of these is used as a boss encounter (Party level +2-4), it doesn't end well.

I eventually had my Ice Devil stop trying against my party because I wanted them to kill it and the combat was like forty rounds in. I just let them kill it because I wanted to move on already.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-10-30, 11:01 AM
Because proficiencies and a +2 one way or another doesn't matter. No matter how many weapon proficiencies someone has, chances are they're only using one of them to attack you with, so they might as well only have proficiency in that weapon. Same with armor.

AC is mostly a joke (BAB scales faster) and Elite Array monsters are typically dumping mental stats unless they're casters, so Wis to AC isn't as big a boost as you think. Monk belongs on that 1/2 CR list. I'd go so far as to say it'd actually reduce CR, because you just wasted a level in something that provides minor benefits that don't affect your effectiveness overall.

What about at low levels, though? A chain shirt can make a big difference, and +2 to all saves isn't anything to sneeze at at those levels.

And don't discount the upgrade to the elite array because of PC levels. A Mindflayer would go from Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 19, Wis 17, Cha 17 to Str 10, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 21, Wis 20, Cha 21. With the monk level, that's +2 to Reflex, +3 to Fortitude, +4 to Will, +5 to AC, net +3 to grapple, +2 to all of it's DCs, 14 hp, and +1 SR and a bunch of skill points. That level would also put it at 9 HD, so that's another feat as well. All for a negligible adjustment in CR.

EDIT: To be fair, it is offset by -1 to hit.

Augmented Lurk
2010-10-30, 12:23 PM
Alternate form...since when...

Quote from SRD:

Alternate Form (Su)
A phasm can assume any form of Large size or smaller as a standard action. A phasm can remain in its alternate form until it chooses to assume a new one or return to its natural form.


Though you just get its extraordinary special attacks.

There are many people who claim that, by RAW, spellcasting is an extraordinary special attack.

Tytalus
2010-10-30, 12:51 PM
AC is mostly a joke (BAB scales faster) and Elite Array monsters are typically dumping mental stats unless they're casters, so Wis to AC isn't as big a boost as you think.

Not sure what you are basing that on, but it's not correct.

The SRD critters have a roughly linear increase of AC with respect to CR. The factor is about 1.4 when including the epic monsters, a little less (about 1.3) when excluding them. So AC does scale considerably faster than BAB.

WIS to AC is an excellent boost for high WIS creatures, obviously. Older dragons and the tougher devils/demons/celestials/etc. can improve their AC quite a bit - especially touch AC (otherwise a glaring weakness for creatures like dragons an many huge+ creatures).

Eldariel
2010-10-30, 01:00 PM
Tarrasque is definitely broken. Intended to be but it still is.

By the way, what the deuce? How did this get in here? I thought the idea was to list monsters too STRONG for their CR, not too WEAK.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-10-30, 01:16 PM
By the way, what the deuce? How did this get in here? I thought the idea was to list monsters too STRONG for their CR, not too WEAK.

Maybe he considers it an example of how ridiculous (broken) the CR system is?Out of curiosity, at what level should parties be able to tackle Big T? And by that I don't mean just buzz around its head or escape, but actually take it down.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-30, 01:26 PM
Maybe he considers it an example of how ridiculous (broken) the CR system is?Out of curiosity, at what level should parties be able to tackle Big T? And by that I don't mean just buzz around its head or escape, but actually take it down.

Level 13-16 can do beat it easily. Kill it requires a lot of work though.

You can beat it down to unconscious by 13-16 than dump under water. Until freed from under water prison it will be always be unconscious.

Prime32
2010-10-30, 01:39 PM
True, according to the SRD it's now an Alternate Form effect, which is even worse. A Phasm could actually turn into a Planetar and (depending on how you interpret RAW) gain 17th level Cleric Casting. At CR 7.There's more. A phasm can turn into a dream larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva).

And the tarrasque is more a puzzle than a monster. If you let it hit you then you'll probably die pretty quickly, but it's trivially easy to avoid that from level 5 upwards since it has no ranged attacks and can't fly.

An lv5 spellcaster with a scroll of wish could solo the tarrasque given enough time (spam save-or-dies until it rolls a 1).

ArcanistSupreme
2010-10-30, 01:43 PM
Level 13-16 can do beat it easily. Kill it requires a lot of work though.

You can beat it down to unconscious by 13-16 than dump under water. Until freed from under water prison it will be always be unconscious.

Or just lure it into a valley and proceed to flood the valley, I guess. It's like the designers just didn't care when they made it. Seriously, Toughness six times?!

Kaww
2010-10-30, 02:03 PM
My votes: Rakshasa, Nymph and Beholder.

Beholder: Finger of death, sleep and disintegrate SLAs. CR 13 CL13. Nice hp, fly.

Rakshasa: DR 15, CL 7(replace haste with fireball and cast two suggestions at fighters and you have a TPK), change shape (when you figure it out it's too late), SR 27!? CR 10

Nymph: CL 7 (from a broken list), BLINDING BEAUTY!?, DR 10/CI and if you change her feats... Starting ECL is 6+7=13, CR=7 ?!??!?

I once played one, it is a killer... Especially since I went druid and had 20+ wis/cha/dex and insane AC, while wearing just a common outfit...

Augmented Lurk
2010-10-30, 02:22 PM
There's more. A phasm can turn into a dream larva.

Holy cow, you're right. I just noticed that the Phasm's Alternate Form has no HD limit, just a size limit of large or smaller...





and most deities are large or smaller:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

Prime32
2010-10-30, 02:22 PM
Nymph: CL 7 (from a broken list), BLINDING BEAUTY!?, DR 10/CI and if you change her feats... Starting ECL is 6+7=13, CR=7 ?!??!?

I once played one, it is a killer... Especially since I went druid and had 20+ wis/cha/dex and insane AC, while wearing just a common outfit......how is casting as a 7th-level caster, having the hp of a 6th-level rogue, and dying to blasphemy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blasphemy.htm) without a save ZOMG OVERPOWERED at lv13? :smallconfused: There are plenty of ways to add Cha to AC.

And blinding beauty is equivalent to a 2nd-level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blindnessDeafness.htm), but much shorter in range.

Druids do not have a particularly broken spell list compared to wizards and clerics - much of their power comes from their animal companion and wild shape, neither of which a nymph has.

Kaww
2010-10-30, 02:29 PM
...how is casting as a 7th-level caster, having the hp of a 6th-level rogue, and dying without a save to blasphemy ZOMG OVERPOWERED at lv13? :smallconfused: There are plenty of ways to add Cha to AC.

And blinding beauty is equivalent to a 2nd-level spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blindnessDeafness.htm), but much shorter in range.

CR in the book is 7, ECL is 13. Mass blind every round, DR 10 and CL7 Druid + stats make you strictly better than lvl 7 druid which makes you a lot better than fighter lvl 7.

EDIT: ECL was counted as 10, if that was what made no sense to you and level buy was allowed... Which gives lvl 7 casting at 6 HD...

Prime32
2010-10-30, 02:32 PM
CR in the book is 7, ECL is 13. Mass blind every round, DR 10 and CL7 Druid + stats make you strictly better than lvl 7 druid which makes you a lot better than fighter lvl 7.What? Druids have better ability scores than nymphs, since they have wildshape. The blindness is easy to avoid, has a limited range, and can be healed or dispelled afterwards.

But a character at the top end of lv7s is still going to slow down an lv13 party. :smallconfused:

Eldariel
2010-10-30, 02:32 PM
There's more. A phasm can turn into a dream larva (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#dreamLarva).

Nice fix, WoTC. Oops. If we stick to Core, that still means Pit Friggin' Fiend or something of the level. For the record, Pit Fiends have a save-or-die Poison, infinite AC, quite decent attacks and so on. CR 7 seems a tad scary.

Kaww
2010-10-30, 02:36 PM
What? Druids have better ability scores than nymphs, since they have wildshape.

Nymph I played had +6 dex, +2 con, +6 int, +6 wis, +8 cha as racial bonuses. For a 4LA that could be payed for. It was worth it...
As far as I know druid's wildshape doesn't give a bonus to hp, int, wis and cha.
EDIT: Again it was a lvl 10 party.

Prime32
2010-10-30, 02:38 PM
Nymph I played had +6 dex, +2 con, +6 int, +6 wis, +8 cha as racial bonuses. For a 4LA that could be payed for. It was worth it...Hey, that's different. You said +7 LA before, and nothing about the option to remove it at higher levels.


As far as I know druid's wildshape doesn't give a bonus to hp, int, wis and cha.That's why you put all your points in Wis and Con, since your Str and Dex are replaced by those of your new form. Int and Cha don't have much benefit for this kind of character anyway, so the nymph's advantage there isn't that big a deal.

EDIT:

EDIT: ECL was counted as 10, if that was what made no sense to you and level buy was allowed... Which gives lvl 7 casting at 6 HD...No, it gives lv7 casting at lv10. And 6HD at lv10, which makes you vulnerable to spells which don't affect the other party members and may even kill you instantly (apart from giving you lower hp, BAB and saves).

Kaww
2010-10-30, 02:45 PM
Hey, that's different. You said +7 LA before, and nothing about the option to remove it at higher levels.

That's why you put all your points in Wis and Con, since your Str and Dex are replaced by those of your new form. Int and Cha don't benefit a druid much.

EDIT:
No, it gives lv7 casting at lv10. And 6HD at lv10, which makes you vulnerable to spells which don't affect the other party members and may even kill you instantly.

I fared well.

Sorry about the edit, but I just pointed out what the MM says. In pathfinder, I think, the nymph could be played as a lvl 7 PC. This thread is to point out what is broken when it comes to CR and this is broken, also cha means a lot if you use nymph's BB. I like to play characters with high int, wis and cha...

Current: lvl5 Bard: Int 16, Wis 17, Cha 22...

Eldariel
2010-10-30, 02:52 PM
Sorry about the edit, but I just pointed out what the MM says. In pathfinder, I think, the nymph could be played as a lvl 7 PC. This thread is to point out what is broken when it comes to CR and this is broken, also cha means a lot if you use nymph's BB. I like to play characters with high int, wis and cha...

Compared to level 7 Human Druid, Nymph isn't even that scary. Druid has:
- Way more HP
- Way better Str
- Probably better Dex and Natural Armor
- All spells derived off Wisdom (as opposed to Nymph's mix of Wis for spells & Cha for special abilities)
- Higher Wis
- Superior Fort & Will-saves

Nymph's only edges are:
- Superior Reflex-save (Fort-save is more important)
- Superior Charisma (though if he wants, a Druid can come close)
- Damage Reduction (but way, way less HP)
- Dimension Door 1/day (nice)

Oh, and Druid has that Animal Companion as a free bonus. Y'know, a Brown Bear or Dire Wolf or so. While you could argue they come close, I'd argue the fact that Druid's spells are way harder to resist just leaves the Druid way ahead.

Kaww
2010-10-30, 02:58 PM
Compared to level 7 Human Druid, Nymph isn't even that scary. Druid has:
- Way more HP
- Way better Str
- Probably better Dex and Natural Armor
- All spells derived off Wisdom (as opposed to Nymph's mix of Wis for spells & Cha for special abilities)
- Higher Wis
- Superior Fort & Will-saves

Nymph's only edges are:
- Superior Reflex-save (Fort-save is more important)
- Superior Charisma (though if he wants, a Druid can come close)
- Damage Reduction (but way, way less HP)
- Dimension Door 1/day (nice)

Oh, and Druid has that Animal Companion as a free bonus. Y'know, a Brown Bear or Dire Wolf or so. While you could argue they come close, I'd argue the fact that Druid's spells are way harder to resist just leaves the Druid way ahead.

Sorry, I'm confused. Don't you get to roll the stats of monster PCs, since not every nymph is the same? You also roll hp, right? I rolled the stats and had con~16, but it was quite a while ago. Also, wis was ~22 and cha was ~24. This is an edge to good old human druid. Especially since later I had 7 caster lvls from 6hd, which is rather neat...

Eldariel
2010-10-30, 03:00 PM
Sorry, I'm confused. Don't you get to roll the stats of monster PCs, since not every nymph is the same? You also roll hp, right? I rolled the stats and had con~16, but it was quite a while ago. Also, wis was ~22 and cha was ~24. This is an edge to good old human druid. Especially since later I had 7 caster lvls from 6hd, which is rather neat...

PCs don't have CR so that's irrelevant to the discussion at hands.

hamishspence
2010-10-30, 03:08 PM
Monsters can have the Elite array though- as well as class levels- and the Elite Array doesn't actually change their CR- though class levels do add to it.

So you could have a monster with very different stats from the norm, depending on what you chose to give it for stats.

Kaww
2010-10-30, 03:12 PM
PCs don't have CR so that's irrelevant to the discussion at hands.

In that case, Nymph overpowers a lvl 7 NPC Human Druid with standard stat array or a lvl 6 NPC human druid with elite stat array. True?
Btw this was the statement of my first post here, since both given druids have CR7...

ArcanistSupreme
2010-10-30, 04:09 PM
Monsters can have the Elite array though- as well as class levels- and the Elite Array doesn't actually change their CR- though class levels do add to it.

So you could have a monster with very different stats from the norm, depending on what you chose to give it for stats.

Specifically, if you give a creature a PC class use the elite array of ability scores before racial adjustments (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#associatedClassLevels), otherwise you use the standard array (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10). Of course, PCs would use whatever was appropriate for the campaign.

Eldariel
2010-10-30, 04:29 PM
In that case, Nymph overpowers a lvl 7 NPC Human Druid with standard stat array or a lvl 6 NPC human druid with elite stat array. True?
Btw this was the statement of my first post here, since both given druids have CR7...

Characters with PC classes have Elite Array. Level 7 NPC Human Druid with Elite Array is slightly stronger than Nymph overall, though not as much as a 28pb Druid would be. They have the same effective Wisdom (17 vs. 16; Human Druid places 15 in Wis and places the level-up score there), Human Druid still has way more HP (14 Con + d8 HDs + an extra HD), and the Druid still comes with a free Bear/Dire Wolf/whatever that's a part of its CR. Do note that thanks to Wildshape, we're still talking at least Deinonychus-level physicals vs. Dryad's.

hamishspence
2010-10-30, 04:32 PM
Isn't there a rule somewhere that allows monsters to take the Elite Array without taking levels in PC classes?

I've seen things like "Advanced elite fiendish tyrannosaurus" or somthing like that, in splatbooks.

Urpriest
2010-10-30, 04:47 PM
Isn't there a rule somewhere that allows monsters to take the Elite Array without taking levels in PC classes?

I've seen things like "Advanced elite fiendish tyrannosaurus" or somthing like that, in splatbooks.

The elite array is allowed for any improved monster, and doesn't change the CR.

Eldariel
2010-10-30, 05:37 PM
The elite array is allowed for any improved monster, and doesn't change the CR.

Not quite. Elite Array is +1 CR unless you're advancing the monster by class levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#advancedMonsterChallengeRati ng). If you're advancing it by HD, or giving Templates, for example, giving it Elite Array would increase its CR. So Elite Array Monster X has the same CR as Monster X with Elite Array and one level in some class.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-30, 05:42 PM
A lot of the big bruisers in this thread are pretty much hard-countered by low level spellcasters. For instance, sending an ogre against a level 1 party might be considered mean until that ogre falls unconscious from one Sleep (will save +1) or is Entangled while the party shoots it from afar (reflex save +0).

ArcanistSupreme
2010-10-30, 06:14 PM
Not quite. Elite Array is +1 CR unless you're advancing the monster by class levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#advancedMonsterChallengeRati ng). If you're advancing it by HD, or giving Templates, for example, giving it Elite Array would increase its CR. So Elite Array Monster X has the same CR as Monster X with Elite Array and one level in some class.

So does the aforementioned monk level add 1.5 to CR or .5? :smallconfused:

Aran Banks
2010-10-30, 06:20 PM
I was thinking... Ethergaunts? They really mess with me, at least. Damn Wizard casting..

true_shinken
2010-10-30, 06:29 PM
A lot of the big bruisers in this thread are pretty much hard-countered by low level spellcasters. For instance, sending an ogre against a level 1 party might be considered mean until that ogre falls unconscious from one Sleep (will save +1) or is Entangled while the party shoots it from afar (reflex save +0).

Well, Sleep only has a shot at working if the ogre is alone.

Thrawn183
2010-10-30, 06:30 PM
So does the aforementioned monk level add 1.5 to CR or .5? :smallconfused:

At least 1.5.

true_shinken
2010-10-30, 06:32 PM
At least 1.5.

No, it's 0.5 unless you have more levels in Monk than racial hit dice.

Lateral
2010-10-30, 06:50 PM
Almost anything with ability damage/drain or SLAs.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-30, 06:50 PM
The SRD critters have a roughly linear increase of AC with respect to CR. The factor is about 1.4 when including the epic monsters, a little less (about 1.3) when excluding them.

Do you have the source for this? Because I've seen it before but it's painfully, ridiculously difficult to hunt down with google.

EDIT Using the scores from http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-legacy-discussion/138024-average-ac-hp-core-monsters-cr-3.html as well as http://people.hofstra.edu/Stefan_Waner/RealWorld/multlinreg.html for the best fit line, depending on where we measure from, AC seems to increase by about 1.2 per CR in core.

Runestar
2010-10-30, 06:57 PM
At least 1.5.

0.5, since class lvs add the elite array for free. 2 lvs of monk doesn't seem half-bad as a splash, since for +1cr, you get +3 to all saves, 3 feats, evasion and wis mod to AC. All of which still work in armour, if your wis stinks.

I think the nymph, like the mindflayer can be quite strong, but they cannot be used as solo foes. You need to give them some tanks to tie up the PCs, allowing them to spam their abilities unmolested. The nymph can pre-buff her allies with spells like barkskin, then start combat with mass blind, followed by stunning the party wizard and rogue.

The choker is okay as is, but just begs to be broken with the ability to take an extra standard action each round. Case in point - slap cleric or warblade lvs on it and it can spam 2 spells/maneuvers per round. :smallcool:

ArcanistSupreme
2010-10-30, 08:10 PM
0.5, since class lvs add the elite array for free. 2 lvs of monk doesn't seem half-bad as a splash, since for +1cr, you get +3 to all saves, 3 feats, evasion and wis mod to AC. All of which still work in armour, if your wis stinks.

So, given that:
Nonassociated class levels (NCL)= +1/2 CR
Elite array scores (EAS)= +1 CR
Monk levels= +1/2 CR

and

NCL + EAS = +1 1/2 CR
NCL + EAS = Monk Levels

Monk levels somehow come out to equal +1/2 CR, -1/2 CR, and -1 CR all at once. Rules fail.

true_shinken
2010-10-30, 08:12 PM
Monk levels somehow come out to equal +1/2 CR, -1/2 CR, and -1 CR all at once. Rules fail.
You're making things needlessly complicated.
Class levels, associated or not, already take into account the elite array.
Monk will be a non-associated class for just about anything, so they add 0.5.
It's very simple, really.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-10-30, 08:15 PM
You're making things needlessly complicated.
Class levels, associated or not, already take into account the elite array.
Monk will be a non-associated class for just about anything, so they add 0.5.
It's very simple, really.

Except the elite array by itself adds +1 to CR, which implies that Monk and elite array are somehow worth less.

EDIT: By the way, Monk levels are non-associated for everything.

Urpriest
2010-10-30, 08:19 PM
Except the elite array by itself adds +1 to CR, which implies that Monk and elite array are somehow worth less.

EDIT: By the way, Monk levels are non-associated for everything.

No no no.

The elite array adds 1 CR only to creatures without class levels. Creatures with class levels are assumed to already have the elite array. Read the text linked.

Edit: Ah I see your point. Yes, that does seem to be the implication. One of the reasons the system is hardly linear.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-30, 08:24 PM
Whoever said tarrasque is wrong, unless they mean the tarrasque is broken in the way that it's too easy to kill. Tarrasque is a puzzle monster, and an obscenely easy one to kill.

Runestar
2010-10-30, 08:59 PM
Except the elite array by itself adds +1 to CR, which implies that Monk and elite array are somehow worth less.

EDIT: By the way, Monk levels are non-associated for everything.

The same could be said for spellcaster lvs.

Elite array had to be worth something (if the designers gave it for free, every monster would have the elite array), and fractional cr was impossible to justify. Not to mention that creatures with less than 3 int cannot take class lvs, so we can't remove that rule entirely.

It is clear that with 1-size-fits-all templates, there are bound to be some corner cases which don't make sense. So you either just ignore them (eg: unsure if 1 lv of monk is +1cr or +0cr? Just use even lvs of monk) or don't use them at all.

Urpriest
2010-10-30, 09:01 PM
The same could be said for spellcaster lvs.


Not if you're a Raskshasa or Planetar or the like.

true_shinken
2010-10-30, 09:03 PM
Not if you're a Raskshasa or Planetar or the like.

Damn, I was just about to say that. Damn swordsages! Swordsages everywhere!

Lans
2010-10-30, 09:31 PM
So, given that:
Nonassociated class levels (NCL)= +1/2 CR
Elite array scores (EAS)= +1 CR
Monk levels= +1/2 CR

and

NCL + EAS = +1 1/2 CR
NCL + EAS = Monk Levels

Monk levels somehow come out to equal +1/2 CR, -1/2 CR, and -1 CR all at once. Rules fail.
I think there was a math thing were that was possible. It involved a U shape on a graph.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-10-30, 09:33 PM
It's interesting that all non-spellcasting PrCs are considered non-associated (as are all base classes post-core!).

Urpriest
2010-10-30, 10:22 PM
It's interesting that all non-spellcasting PrCs are considered non-associated (as are all base classes post-core!).

Yeah, I think the intent is pretty clear that the definitions should be extended. So Monk would be associated for monklike monsters, etc.

Realms of Chaos
2010-10-30, 11:15 PM
The Hezrou!

This thing thing has a nauseating stench effect that even a character with a good fort save, 18 Con, and +2 cloak of resistance has a 50% chance of failing if you face it at the appropriate level.

Even worse, the thing casts Blasphemy at a CL equal to its CR + 2. This means that putting it against an 11th level party lets it automatically paralyze all non-evil party members for 1d10 minutes.

While these tactics can be stopped by spacing yourself out far enough or by flying around, this guy doesn't need to give you any warning. Hezrous can teleport at will, meaning that they can teleport into a group of PCs on one round (stopping casters from doing much of anything while nauseated and front-liners from ubercharging) and use blasphemy on the next round before performing a coup de grace on a party member and teleporting away from the casters who flew or ran away in time to avoid the blasphemy before they can start really casting again.

And then it does the same thing twice more... because it can.

Runestar
2010-10-30, 11:56 PM
Even worse, the thing casts Blasphemy at a CL equal to its CR + 2. This means that putting it against an 11th level party lets it automatically paralyze all non-evil party members for 1d10 minutes.

Actually, it would only daze them. Paralysis occurs only on PCs of 8th lv and lower. So they can't be CDG'ed.

And you would think that at 11th lv, every party would be immune to fear and poison courtesy of Heroes' Feast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroesFeast.htm), so its stench shouldn't be an issue unless you spring it on lower lv parties as an end boss of sorts.

Its melee attacks are quite pathetic and unholy blight doesn't deal that much damage either.

Are we talking about the same monster here? :smallconfused:

Starbuck_II
2010-10-31, 12:23 AM
The Hezrou!

This thing thing has a nauseating stench effect that even a character with a good fort save, 18 Con, and +2 cloak of resistance has a 50% chance of failing if you face it at the appropriate level.

Even worse, the thing casts Blasphemy at a CL equal to its CR + 2. This means that putting it against an 11th level party lets it automatically paralyze all non-evil party members for 1d10 minutes.


I've never fought one in a game (only on the PC game Temple of elemental Evil).

ArcanistSupreme
2010-10-31, 12:50 PM
Yeah, I think the intent is pretty clear that the definitions should be extended. So Monk would be associated for monklike monsters, etc.

I can see post-core classes being included, but Monk is the only core class that is excluded completely.

Back on topic, would it be easier to list the monsters that are appropriately CRed?

Prime32
2010-10-31, 01:08 PM
So Monk would be associated for monklike monsters, etc.What is a monklike monster though? One with high ability scores all-round? The monk has self-contained abilities which don't stack with anything. Even something which already fights with natural weapons won't gain more benefit from monk levels unless they take the Beast Strike feat or something.

RelentlessImp
2010-10-31, 01:14 PM
What is a monklike monster though? One with high ability scores all-round? The monk has self-contained abilities which don't stack with anything. Even something which already fights with natural weapons won't gain more benefit from monk levels unless they take the Beast Strike feat or something.

Beholder.(Whitespace)

RanWilde
2010-10-31, 01:17 PM
Aboleth, the most dangerous thing you will ever fight. Think about it before you post.

Urpriest
2010-10-31, 01:23 PM
What is a monklike monster though? One with high ability scores all-round? The monk has self-contained abilities which don't stack with anything. Even something which already fights with natural weapons won't gain more benefit from monk levels unless they take the Beast Strike feat or something.

A monster with Flurry of blows, for example, would be a monklike monster. I suppose one that typically focuses on unarmed strikes (not natural weapons) would also qualify. A Githzerai seems pretty monklike given its ability scores and culture.

Also, aren't levels in a favored class always considered associated? Or am I just making that up?

Thrawn183
2010-10-31, 02:06 PM
And you would think that at 11th lvl, every party would be immune to fear and poison courtesy of Heroes' Feast (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/heroesFeast.htm), so its stench shouldn't be an issue unless you spring it on lower lv parties as an end boss of sorts.


I've seen this argument a lot, but I've never seen an 11th level party use Heroes' Feast. I've seen an 18th level party use it, but the parties at 11th were too busy filling their precious 6th level spell slots with Heal spells to spend two on Heroes' Feast.

Sir Giacomo
2010-10-31, 03:27 PM
Back on topic, would it be easier to list the monsters that are appropriately CRed?

Well, currently there are no particular entries for CRs 1,4,9,14,15,17-20 - apart from assuming that if applicable dragons and/or evil outsiders would qualify at their respective CRs.
But maybe someone has any special "favourites"?:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

ArcanistSupreme
2010-10-31, 04:42 PM
Well, one really stupidly CRed monster is the Shrieker. It shrieks if it can see movement or light within ten feet. And that is it. It's essentially a worse version of the alarm spell, but it's given a CR of 1. How is an orc worse than a shrieker?

How do people feel about Nagas? They seem to be just plain better sorcerers (especially the water naga), but I'm not sure.

EDIT: And I can't believe that rust monsters haven't been brought up yet! Given that a monster is only supposed to eat up 1/4th of a player's daily resources, this guy does a great job of threatening even higher level players in the right circumstances. So much for the fighter's sword never running out.

JBento
2010-10-31, 05:15 PM
I volunteer the Balhannoth, from MMIV, which is a TPK waiting to happen:

At CR10
it's going to start the fight from ambush with a Hide result of 36
generates a dimensional lock effect at 20ft radius (so you can't teleport away from it)
has a fifty foot speed (so you can't raun away from it)
you can't hide from it (locate you? nonono, it locates your magic items or magical effects)
is immune to visual effects (so 90% of possible miss chance goes straight down the drain - the remaining 10% were screwed right off the bat due the dimensional lock)
10ft reach and 3 attacks per round, two of which allow it to Improve Grab (with a grapple modifier of +23) AAAAAAAND
when it grapples you? your magical items stop working, all magical effects are nullified and you can't cast spells or use (Sp) or (Su) abilities.

yeahhhh...

EDIT: if someone knows of some counters for it (that you'd generally have around, not something "oh we'll fight a balhannoth so we'll prepare like so") I'd like to know

ArcanistSupreme
2010-10-31, 06:05 PM
I volunteer the Balhannoth, from MMIV...

Crazy as it may be, MM IV isn't core. Plus, MMs II and IV are kind of notorious for having ridiculously CRed monsters, IIRC.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-31, 06:13 PM
I volunteer the Balhannoth, from MMIV, which is a TPK waiting to happen:

At CR10
it's going to start the fight from ambush with a Hide result of 36
generates a dimensional lock effect at 20ft radius (so you can't teleport away from it)
has a fifty foot speed (so you can't raun away from it)
you can't hide from it (locate you? nonono, it locates your magic items or magical effects)
is immune to visual effects (so 90% of possible miss chance goes straight down the drain - the remaining 10% were screwed right off the bat due the dimensional lock)
10ft reach and 3 attacks per round, two of which allow it to Improve Grab (with a grapple modifier of +23) AAAAAAAND
when it grapples you? your magical items stop working, all magical effects are nullified and you can't cast spells or use (Sp) or (Su) abilities.

yeahhhh...

EDIT: if someone knows of some counters for it (that you'd generally have around, not something "oh we'll fight a balhannoth so we'll prepare like so") I'd like to knowWhat we have here is an anti-caster monster. I wonder, Heart of Water says its Freedom of Movement ability is an effect like the named spell, but it's not a spell, and it's not a spell-like ability. Is it a supernatural ability?

Anyway, a Goliath Frenzied Berserker going for damage, not grapple, will still have a comparable grapple modifier with only (Ex) abilities up and can kill it in one full attack.

Oh, and like the previous poster said, it's non-core. It's easy to find overpowered monsters with all those resources available. Adamantine Horror comes to mind.

JBento
2010-10-31, 06:23 PM
You're right - missed the Core part... even though it's in the thread title X)

Anyway, Heart of Water stops working the moment it grapples you, so it won0t work...

And how's that Goliath math? +23 grapple check at lvl 10? Also, if the balhannoth makes the grapple, what are you using for the full attack? your potato peeler?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-31, 06:40 PM
Anyway, Heart of Water stops working the moment it grapples you, so it won0t work...

It would, actually. See SRD for grapple steps.
Step 1: Attack of Opportunity; negated by Improved Grab.
Step 2: Grab. Monster makes a melee touch attack to grab the target. As an immediate action, caster expends Heart of Water, which gives you Freedom of Movement. "The subject automatically succeeds on any grapple check made to resist a grapple attempt."
Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. Caster automatically succeeds. As the SRD says, "If you lose, you fail to start the grapple." The grapple never started, so the antimagic ability never triggered.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-31, 06:48 PM
Granted using Heart of Water for Freedom of Movement makes duration in rounds, but better than being grabbed.

SurlySeraph
2010-10-31, 07:31 PM
And how's that Goliath math? +23 grapple check at lvl 10? Also, if the balhannoth makes the grapple, what are you using for the full attack? your potato peeler?

+4 powerful build, +10 BAB, +10 STR isn't too difficult. Assuming Powerful Build works that way, I forget.

As for the full attack, you can use your forehead, because unarmed strikes are light weapons (usable in grapple) that let you power attack (necessary because you're a FB).

AslanCross
2010-10-31, 07:55 PM
Yeah, I think the intent is pretty clear that the definitions should be extended. So Monk would be associated for monklike monsters, etc.

I think a good project to do now, since there are no longer any new official 3.5 books being produced, is to come up with a list (or at least general guidelines) to help figure out which classes are associated with which monsters.



Also, aren't levels in a favored class always considered associated? Or am I just making that up?

Nope, I remember WOTC saying that the opposite is true in the context of the Ogre Mage. It has SOME Spell-like Abilities, but no casting. As such, giving it Sorcerer levels would actually make it WEAKER. Whee, CR 9 monster with a few spell-like abilities and level 1 spells.

Boci
2010-10-31, 08:33 PM
As for the full attack, you can use your forehead,

Isn't that a monk class feature?

SurlySeraph
2010-10-31, 08:46 PM
Using it *well* is a Monk class feature. Just making an unarmed strike is allowed for anyone, and I don't see why a Frenzied Berserker would make an unarmed strike with anything other than his face.

Doug Lampert
2010-10-31, 08:54 PM
0.5, since class lvs add the elite array for free. 2 lvs of monk doesn't seem half-bad as a splash, since for +1cr, you get +3 to all saves, 3 feats, evasion and wis mod to AC. All of which still work in armour, if your wis stinks.

You also get gear as a NPC of your CR (the monster advancement rules specify gear as an NPC and don't directly say whether this is based on HD, Class Level, or CR, but the random NPC rules in the DMG make it clear that it's gear as an NPC of the same CR).

Note that ANY caster level is non-associated full caster class unless the monster casts as that class.

The gear alone in many cases is worth more than +1 to CR, the elite array can easily be worth more than +1 to CR (especially if you have special abilities with a Con based DC so pumping Con adds to both HP and save DC), plotting out decent feats is golden (elite array and ability focus can easily give +4 to important DCs), and then there's the extra HD and whatever your class gives you.

2 Levels of cleric (or cloistered cleric if non-core) is worth it for almost any monster (elite array, full gear, 2 domains, +3 to two saves, 2 HD with HP, you can use wands, a feat and/or ability increase is likely, and all your feats rechosen), and you only pay 1 CR.

I've seen threads discussing the fact that adding wizard levels to a giant, DUMPING INT so you're almost playing a commoner and won't be tempted to waste actions on spells your pitiful low level spells, and just using the other advantages is grossly overpowered compared to other monsters of the same CR.

Toptomcat
2010-10-31, 09:31 PM
I believe we had just hit 20 when we fought them. Two of them. And I was a Fighter.

I think I see your problem here...


Additionally, I know that true dragons have already been mentioned, but holy creepin' jeepers dragons. They're pretty difficult to fight if played like total morons, as immobile melee monsters focusing on their natural attacks in a stand-up fight. If they're played with just a spark of intelligence- pretending that their SLAs and spells don't exist and just Fly-By Attacking and Snatching or strafing with their breath weapons- they can easily turn into a TPK for a less-than-optimized group of players. If their feats, spells, and skills are intelligently chosen, and the dragon acts half as smart as it has a right to, then even an encounter with a dragon of CR = party level - 1 or 2 can turn into the nightmarish survival-horror lovechild of Tucker's Kobolds, the xenomorphs from Aliens and Test of Spite-type caster rocket tag.

Boci
2010-10-31, 09:56 PM
Using it *well* is a Monk class feature. Just making an unarmed strike is allowed for anyone, and I don't see why a Frenzied Berserker would make an unarmed strike with anything other than his face.

I think its debatable that a frenzied beserker will be able to power attack with his forehead unless he's trained to do it.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-31, 10:22 PM
Well, if he's not trained in it, he'll be provoking attacks of opportunity, which seems reasonable for a headbutt.

Boci
2010-10-31, 10:23 PM
Well, if he's not trained in it, he'll be provoking attacks of opportunity, which seems reasonable for a headbutt.

That is one solution.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-01, 01:20 AM
Anyway, Heart of Water stops working the moment it grapples you, so it won0t work...Going to spoiler the rest to avoid clogging the thread with minor derail...Actually, when the Balhannoth grapples you, your magic *items* are suppressed, and you can't actively cast spells or use SLAs or (Su) abilities, but spells already cast on you are not suppressed. If you knew you were going to encounter this creature soon and cast Freedom of Movement on yourself shortly before encountering it, it would not be able to grapple you. The issue is, Heart of Water doesn't grant Freedom of Movement until that effect is expended - and to correct another poster, the Freedom of Movement effect is expended as a swift action. A spell effect isn't a spell (taking advantage of it doesn't count as casting it, anyway), and it's not a spell like ability; if it's not a supernatural ability either, you can expend the freedom of movement effect without it being suppressed. RAW conflicting with RAI? Sure, but the intention is just as stupid as the letter here, and when the DM is already throwing Balhannoths at you, the RAW is all you have.

And how's that Goliath math? +23 grapple check at lvl 10? Also, if the balhannoth makes the grapple, what are you using for the full attack? your potato peeler?Goliath Barbarian6/FB2 is ECL 9. 18 base strength, 4 racial, 2 stat bumps, 4 rage, 6 frenzy is 34 for a +12 modifier. 8 BaB and +4 to for powerful build sums to +24, in the nude, not optimized for grapple. The Balhannoth doesn't do *that* much damage, so the FB just has to be ungrappled for one round during his frenzy to kill the thing.

JBento
2010-11-01, 06:01 AM
And now I know... and knowing is - well, you know :smallbiggrin:

Psyx
2010-11-01, 08:55 AM
I'm not familiar with the MMs, but trolls always seemed pretty horrible, due to the damage that they can kick out.

Juggernauts seem disgusting for their CR.

And we faced something the other week that was CR8, yet cast as a sorc, had two tongues (two casts per round), could maximise fireballs and ice storms three times a day each AND had 4 arms. Oh yeah: They were invisible at the start of the fight, too. I have no idea what they were' but whoever wrote their CR in was smoking something illegal.


Also: Shadows are horrible if they pop out of the walls. At the level where you encounter them, most of the party are quite likely to have no way of hurting them, and they do STR-draining touch attacks. Ouch.

Lans
2010-11-01, 04:57 PM
I've seen threads discussing the fact that adding wizard levels to a giant, DUMPING INT so you're almost playing a commoner and won't be tempted to waste actions on spells your pitiful low level spells, and just using the other advantages is grossly overpowered compared to other monsters of the same CR.
Ogre gains +3 to hit, 21 hp, +1AC,+4 Will Save, a feat and a jaguar familiar with 30hp.

Eldariel
2010-11-01, 05:29 PM
I'm not familiar with the MMs, but trolls always seemed pretty horrible, due to the damage that they can kick out.

Juggernauts seem disgusting for their CR.

And we faced something the other week that was CR8, yet cast as a sorc, had two tongues (two casts per round), could maximise fireballs and ice storms three times a day each AND had 4 arms. Oh yeah: They were invisible at the start of the fight, too. I have no idea what they were' but whoever wrote their CR in was smoking something illegal.


Also: Shadows are horrible if they pop out of the walls. At the level where you encounter them, most of the party are quite likely to have no way of hurting them, and they do STR-draining touch attacks. Ouch.

Sounds like a bit weakened Spell Weaver [MM2]; an all-time Char Ops Shapechange favorite. They cast as Sorcs two levels above their HD, have a bunch o' arms that can cast spells (6 is the normal version) and their 10 HD version is CR 8 (so 8 HD would logically be CR 8).

Tvtyrant
2010-11-01, 06:47 PM
If only core: All Aberrations are inherently broken. They all have their own reasons, but they do horrible things to a party. Seriously, add a class level to an orc and you get a better orc. Add a level of cleric to a Choker and you get a godless (lol) killing machine casting two spells a round. Even the silly Cloaker is horrible to fight due to its falling on you from the ceiling effect.

Fiends are always overly powerful, though broken is debatable. Take the CR 1 Lemur. DR 5/good and silver, immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid and cold, immune to mind control, and has 9 hp. Meaning without a crit a greatsword would still take two turns to drop it with max damage. Compare that to the aforementioned orc and weep!

Dragons and some magical beasts are also broken.

JBento
2010-11-01, 07:45 PM
Except that you're not taking into account that if the ORC crits you, you're likely dead, and almost assuredly unconscious (and it has a 15% chance of threatening).

If the lemure crits (and it only has a 5% chance of threatening), it's unlikley to knock ANYONE unconscious (averages at 5 dmg which is... sucky). Yes, the lemure has two attacks, but they're at half the Orc's attack bonus.

Also, consider that the Orc is CR 1/2, and the lemure 1, which means that you're eligible for our special promotion: for the price of 1 lemure, you can get TWO great weapon-wielding orcs.

There IS a broken monster in that pairing, but I really don't think it's the lemure :smallsmile:

Starbuck_II
2010-11-01, 08:54 PM
Except that you're not taking into account that if the ORC crits you, you're likely dead, and almost assuredly unconscious (and it has a 15% chance of threatening).

If the lemure crits (and it only has a 5% chance of threatening), it's unlikley to knock ANYONE unconscious (averages at 5 dmg which is... sucky). Yes, the lemure has two attacks, but they're at half the Orc's attack bonus.

Also, consider that the Orc is CR 1/2, and the lemure 1, which means that you're eligible for our special promotion: for the price of 1 lemure, you can get TWO great weapon-wielding orcs.

There IS a broken monster in that pairing, but I really don't think it's the lemure :smallsmile:

Psst, lemures are proficient with all simple/martial weapons (all outsiders are). So yes, Mr. JBento, the Lemure can do the same thing with the orcs weapons.

Psyx
2010-11-02, 05:51 AM
Sounds like a bit weakened Spell Weaver [MM2]; an all-time Char Ops Shapechange favorite. They cast as Sorcs two levels above their HD, have a bunch o' arms that can cast spells (6 is the normal version) and their 10 HD version is CR 8 (so 8 HD would logically be CR 8).

That seems about right. Two of them popping out of invisibility, dropping maximised fireballs on the party and then wailing in with weapons while maximised ice-storming us with the other tongue readying dispels to counter-spell nicely toasted our party in...well... 1 combat round. Not many PCs at that level have enough HP to take that kind of a kicking...

Runestar
2010-11-02, 06:15 AM
I never thought of fiends as overly powerful. Yes, they have a laundry list of resistances, immunities, SLAs and other abilities, but this is more than compensated by their having fairly few HD for their cr, which means they will rarely live long enough to make good use of their powers.

Wotc tried to streamline their abilities in 3.5, but apparently, they didn't go far enough. Just look at the trend in MM5, where monsters are designed around how to be most effective within that 5 rounds of combat.


Take the CR 1 Lemur. DR 5/good and silver, immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid and cold, immune to mind control, and has 9 hp. Meaning without a crit a greatsword would still take two turns to drop it with max damage. Compare that to the aforementioned orc and weep!

How many of those abilities are likely to even come into play at 1st lv? Maybe the dr...that's pretty much about it. :smallconfused:

weenie
2010-11-02, 06:38 AM
I would like to vote Rakshasa out of the list.

A moderateley optimized lvl7 party shouldn't have a hard time taking one out. It has good SR and DR, and casts as a lvl 7 sorcerer, but guess what, the party wizard casts as a lvl 7 wizard! And if he can't beat the SR(probably won't be able to) he cans still buff the other pary members, as he's supposed to. DR 15 is nice, but a decent fighter should still get some damage through at lvl 7, and 52 hp aren't that many. Also, there's its offensive capabilities. Two claws and a bite. Dealing 3.5 dmg on average. With a +8 attack bonus! Sure, it has spells, but a decent party should make their saves/dispell them/shrug off the damage. It's a nice encounter, but it really isn't broken for CR 10.

Silus
2010-11-02, 06:59 AM
I'm gonna initially say anything that can use Psionics (I've some bad experiences with psionics in a low magic game I play in).

But from the stock MM...*Cracks 3.0 MM*

Never encountered them, but the Chaos Beast looks pretty nasty. Like a shoggoth + John Carpenter's The Thing...CR 7 and can turn you into one of them...

Displacer Beasts. They're just...unfair. Displacement is just an annoying ability for a CR 4.

Owlbears. They may not be the biggest, or most powerful CR 4 monster, but darn it, they're intimidating.

Phantom Fungus. Invisible sneaky CR 3 monster? No thanks. (The Hooting Phantom Fungus are the worst D= )

I'm sure it's been said, but Rust Monster (CR 3), for obvious reasons.

Prime32
2010-11-02, 07:37 AM
I'm gonna initially say anything that can use Psionics (I've some bad experiences with psionics in a low magic game I play in).:smallconfused:

The "psionics" ability is just "spell-like abilities" with a different name. Unless you're talking about 3.0 psionics, which is completely different from the 3.5 system.

JBento
2010-11-02, 08:32 AM
Psst, lemures are proficient with all simple/martial weapons (all outsiders are). So yes, Mr. JBento, the Lemure can do the same thing with the orcs weapons.

Actually it can't, due to the fact that lemures have a piddly 10 Strength vs. the orcs' 15. Also, the orcs come with the weapons right out of the box, while it's pushing it a bit for the lemures (who are mindless) to go get some and wield them.

Silus
2010-11-02, 08:39 AM
:smallconfused:

The "psionics" ability is just "spell-like abilities" with a different name. Unless you're talking about 3.0 psionics, which is completely different from the 3.5 system.

Main issue I have is that, at least to my knowledge, things like Anti-Magic whatever (cone, field, what have you) do not affect psionics. The average player, at least in my group, have no way to drop a psionic being.

And I think the DM that does use Psionics runs with the 3.0 rules, with a strange blend of 2.0.

Boci
2010-11-02, 09:12 AM
Main issue I have is that, at least to my knowledge, things like Anti-Magic whatever (cone, field, what have you) do not affect psionics. The average player, at least in my group, have no way to drop a psionic being.

Not the case. Unless called out as being otherwise, things that effect magic affect psionics the same way.

Silus
2010-11-02, 09:16 AM
Not the case. Unless called out as being otherwise, things that effect magic affect psionics the same way.

*Laughs* Well, it doesn't matter much as we never get past lvl 6 with that DM. We either end up dying or starting a new campaign. Usually dying though.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-02, 09:27 AM
Main issue I have is that, at least to my knowledge, things like Anti-Magic whatever (cone, field, what have you) do not affect psionics. The average player, at least in my group, have no way to drop a psionic being.

And I think the DM that does use Psionics runs with the 3.0 rules, with a strange blend of 2.0.

Houserule: so nothing to do with psionics but the DM.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-02, 05:20 PM
Actually it can't, due to the fact that lemures have a piddly 10 Strength vs. the orcs' 15. Also, the orcs come with the weapons right out of the box, while it's pushing it a bit for the lemures (who are mindless) to go get some and wield them.

On a 1 on 1 the Lemure will win, hardcore. It has almost twice as much health without damage reduction, it would do all but 1 of the orcs hp if it rolls average dice, and unless the orc crits it would not take substantial damage from the orc. If the Lemure were given weapons the battle is even more in its favor.

Moreover the Lemure is less likely to get nuked at higher levels, keeping them as cannon fodder for longer. If you apply levels to an orc and to a Lemure at the same rate, the Lemure remains stronger the the orc for all of them (unless its a magic orc, in which case Tier 1 trumps). So yes, the orc crit is dangerous, but it doesn't make up the difference between them.


I still maintain the Fiends as OP or broken because they can do things like nuke themselfs. A Pit Fiend or Balor can cast spells like fireball or blasphemy on themselves while in the midst of melee without taking damage. In Tyrants of the 9 Hells they even discuss the idea of incinerating a battlefield while hiding behind a fire-proof wall of Lemures.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-11-02, 05:32 PM
Main issue I have is that, at least to my knowledge, things like Anti-Magic whatever (cone, field, what have you) do not affect psionics. The average player, at least in my group, have no way to drop a psionic being.

And I think the DM that does use Psionics runs with the 3.0 rules, with a strange blend of 2.0.

3.5 has Magic-Psionics transparency (spells can affect psionics and vice versa) by default, as well as being considered better balanced than Core casters.

I have heard only bad things about Psionics in editions before 3.5's Expanded Psionics Handbook (which you should totally get if you want a better/different/another magic-like system).

Those could be the problems.

Edit: @^ a supposedly fair fight would be 2 orcs: 1 lemure. One-on-one the lemure should be winning.

Urpriest
2010-11-02, 05:55 PM
3.5 has Magic-Psionics transparency (spells can affect psionics and vice versa) by default, as well as being considered better balanced than Core casters.

I have heard only bad things about Psionics in editions before 3.5's Expanded Psionics Handbook (which you should totally get if you want a better/different/another magic-like system).

Those could be the problems.

Edit: @^ a supposedly fair fight would be 2 orcs: 1 lemure. One-on-one the lemure should be winning.

3.0 also had magic-psionics transparency, FYI.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-11-02, 06:23 PM
3.0 also had magic-psionics transparency, FYI.

I wouldn't know, having never read it, but thanks. So it's an issue with a houserule at best, and partially based on rule system at worst, oh well. I hope that DM gets a calm and rational talking-to.

Runestar
2010-11-02, 09:50 PM
I still maintain the Fiends as OP or broken because they can do things like nuke themselfs. A Pit Fiend or Balor can cast spells like fireball or blasphemy on themselves while in the midst of melee without taking damage. In Tyrants of the 9 Hells they even discuss the idea of incinerating a battlefield while hiding behind a fire-proof wall of Lemures.

All of which are already factored into their crs and subpar against PCs of that lv. You think fireballs from a pit fiend are going to bother a lv20 party sporting fire resistance, evasion and good reflex saves?

Tyndmyr
2010-11-02, 10:11 PM
Most overpowered monster?

Human.

They are prone to gaining levels as adventurers, and using all sorts of rules to gain all sorts of unfair advantages over equally CRed monsters. They spawn endless numbers of world-threatening, mad with power caster. And for some reason, society has yet to place a stigma on these dangerous creatures.

Help save society by killing humans today.

Coidzor
2010-11-02, 11:13 PM
Most overpowered monster?

Human.

They are prone to gaining levels as adventurers, and using all sorts of rules to gain all sorts of unfair advantages over equally CRed monsters. They spawn endless numbers of world-threatening, mad with power caster. And for some reason, society has yet to place a stigma on these dangerous creatures.

Help save society by killing humans today.

Humans, the only monsters so OP they left 'em out of the MM. :smallamused:

Boci
2010-11-03, 05:09 AM
I still maintain the Fiends as OP or broken because they can do things like nuke themselfs. A Pit Fiend or Balor can cast spells like fireball or blasphemy on themselves while in the midst of melee without taking damage. In Tyrants of the 9 Hells they even discuss the idea of incinerating a battlefield while hiding behind a fire-proof wall of Lemures.

At that level wizard with tome tainted soul could prebuff himself with energy: immunity cold and cast energy substitution: cold, utter cold fire ball on himself and heal for half the damage he deals to enemies. If the wizard in questiuon wanted an interesting but not to powerful trick that is.

JBento
2010-11-03, 06:59 AM
On a 1 on 1 the Lemure will win, hardcore. It has almost twice as much health without damage reduction, it would do all but 1 of the orcs hp if it rolls average dice, and unless the orc crits it would not take substantial damage from the orc. If the Lemure were given weapons the battle is even more in its favor.

Moreover the Lemure is less likely to get nuked at higher levels, keeping them as cannon fodder for longer. If you apply levels to an orc and to a Lemure at the same rate, the Lemure remains stronger the the orc for all of them (unless its a magic orc, in which case Tier 1 trumps). So yes, the orc crit is dangerous, but it doesn't make up the difference between them.


I still maintain the Fiends as OP or broken because they can do things like nuke themselfs. A Pit Fiend or Balor can cast spells like fireball or blasphemy on themselves while in the midst of melee without taking damage. In Tyrants of the 9 Hells they even discuss the idea of incinerating a battlefield while hiding behind a fire-proof wall of Lemures.

And on a 1-on-1 a shadow, and most certainly an allip, will own pretty much anything in core, HARD. That's not the point. The point is that, vs. characters one orc is far more dangerous than a lemure - and is of lower CR.

An orc can actually one-shot pretty much any lvl1 char if it's lucky - and, even if it isn't, its hits hurt. Also, by CR, you should have TWO of them for each lvl1 char. By CR, you get one lemure per lvl1 party member. So, in a CR equivalent fight, the orcs do the same number of attacks, with FAR more damage, at TWICE the attack bonus.

Are you seriously suggesting that, at lvl18 or so, the characters are actually getting worried at being hit with 10d6 fire dmg, Reflex for half? :smallconfused: Are those WotC-built characters? And Blasphemy as a danger is just laughable:
first, it won't work on any Evil characters.
secondly, at CR, it does diddly squat - a pit fiend is CR 20, and it's caster lvl for blasphemy is 18
third, even if it DOES work, the pit fiend is trading its standard action for your turn - I guess it's useful if it wants to run away...
as a finisher, if you're facing it in its home plane, and happen to be losing, you WANT it to blaspheme - it means you're shifted to the Material and it can't kill you anymore.

Pit Fiends ARE dangerous opponents, but it's not because of any of those abilities if they're faced solo, at CR.

The tactic from Tot9H is, as most strategy stuff WotC comes up with, ridiculous. Stuff that doesn't fly and utterly lacks ranged attacks is neither an obstacle nor a danger at high levels unless you'0re locked in a low-ceiling room wiht it (see also, the tarrasque joke).

EDIT: You want an "OMG-what?" CR-WTH devil that's a real danger? Try the Gelugon, CR 13. It's made of ice, so you probably aren't going to use that against him right off the bat (even though it only has resistance 10 to it). No you0re probably going to use fire (to which he's immune). It has pretty much all the useful spell-like abilities of the Pit Fiend (but at a lower CR, he's harder to counter), plus Wall of Ice, all at-will as well.
It has 36 AC (yes, the Pit Fiend has the same CR+AC, but to hit modifiers don't scale linearly, which means that the Ice Devil is actually ahrder to hit at CR-appropriate), has a free action Fear aura (granted, if you svae you0re immune, but if you don't...) and 3 of its 5 attacks cause Slow.

Runestar
2010-11-03, 07:11 AM
An orc can actually one-shot pretty much any lvl1 char if it's lucky - and, even if it isn't, its hits hurt. Also, by CR, you should have TWO of them for each lvl1 char. By CR, you get one lemure per lvl1 party member. So, in a CR equivalent fight, the orcs do the same number of attacks, with FAR more damage, at TWICE the attack bonus.

Which is quite true.

Or even better, compare a 1st lv orc barb to a lemure (both cr1). While raging, the barb does at least 1d12+9 or 10 damage min at +7 to-hit (or +9 on a charge), enough to 1-shot any non-fighter PC. The lemure has what...+2 attack, and deals 5 damage on a full attack. You are basically trading raw destructive power for better defenses.

JBento
2010-11-03, 10:53 AM
Also, I forgot - a lemure has only a 20ft speed, which means that, if you're medium sized (minus dwarves), it really can't kill you unless you let it - exactly the same thing that happens with human zombies (though they pack more of a punch) :smallsmile:

Tyndmyr
2010-11-03, 11:41 AM
An orc can actually one-shot pretty much any lvl1 char if it's lucky - and, even if it isn't, its hits hurt. Also, by CR, you should have TWO of them for each lvl1 char. By CR, you get one lemure per lvl1 party member. So, in a CR equivalent fight, the orcs do the same number of attacks, with FAR more damage, at TWICE the attack bonus.

Cr is for the encounter, assuming a 4 person party, not per person.

So, a Cr1 encounter would consist of a single lemure or two orcs, not four lemures or eight orcs. That would be around CR 4.

Coidzor
2010-11-03, 01:23 PM
Cr is for the encounter, assuming a 4 person party, not per person.

So, a Cr1 encounter would consist of a single lemure or two orcs, not four lemures or eight orcs. That would be around CR 4.

I think 8 orcs would be CR 5, as I believe once the CR becomes an integer, doubling the number of creatures involved adds 2 to the CR each time. 1 orc=CR 1/2, 2 Orcs=CR 1, 4 Orcs=CR 3, 8 Orcs=CR 5. Then again, this encounter calculator (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm)believes that's an EL 4 encounter. :smallconfused:

Tyndmyr
2010-11-03, 01:26 PM
Technically, you're right by RAW. The encounter calculator gives a somewhat better estimation of EL, though. After a certain point, adding tons more mooks is mostly irrelevant. It's either already overwhelming for lower level players, or easy cannon fodder for higher ones.

Zherog
2010-11-03, 01:38 PM
I think 8 orcs would be CR 5, as I believe once the CR becomes an integer, doubling the number of creatures involved adds 2 to the CR each time. 1 orc=CR 1/2, 2 Orcs=CR 1, 4 Orcs=CR 3, 8 Orcs=CR 5. Then again, this encounter calculator (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm)believes that's an EL 4 encounter. :smallconfused:


8 orcs would be EL 5. CR applies to an individual creature/trap/challenge, and EL (encounter level) applies to the "sum" of the entities within the encounter.

JBento
2010-11-03, 02:01 PM
Cr is for the encounter, assuming a 4 person party, not per person.

So, a Cr1 encounter would consist of a single lemure or two orcs, not four lemures or eight orcs. That would be around CR 4.

Sorry, my bad. :smallredface: You're right, ofc (except for the CR-EL thing). Of course, the fact remains that you get twice as many orcs as lemures.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-03, 02:14 PM
At that level wizard with tome tainted soul could prebuff himself with energy: immunity cold and cast energy substitution: cold, utter cold fire ball on himself and heal for half the damage he deals to enemies. If the wizard in questiuon wanted an interesting but not to powerful trick that is.

This is a discussion of core, otherwise I would use totally different examples of broken. (Beholder Mage, The Mindflayer-Roper, etc.)

As for the Lemur, yes your right that double that in orcs is probably stronger, so I'm going to drop my case on that one.

However, an Ice Devil is technically the same CR as a Beholder, so no I don't think its broken. Its hard yes, but a party could deal with one without extensive prep time, while a sudden "spring a Beholder on them" fight is a very possible TPK (unless they have an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. He ruins everything!)

Boci
2010-11-03, 02:16 PM
This is a discussion of core

Yes and there are much more powerful tactics in core than the one I described.

true_shinken
2010-11-03, 02:19 PM
a sudden "spring a Beholder on them" fight is a very possible TPK (unless they have an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. He ruins everything!)

Or a decent melee character that happens to win initiative or is not dead after the surprise round. Really, beholders are not very tough.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-03, 02:47 PM
Since I seem to be keeping this thread alive through the force of my controversy, I'm going to just let it die :P

true_shinken
2010-11-03, 02:49 PM
Since I seem to be keeping this thread alive through the force of my controversy, I'm going to just let it die :P

Tvtyrant, you're awesome.

Eldariel
2010-11-03, 04:13 PM
Or a decent melee character that happens to win initiative or is not dead after the surprise round. Really, beholders are not very tough.

That's why I painted them as glass cannons; that's only one of their weaknesses, they also just so happen to be hilariously weak to spells. Since they can only paint one target with the Anti-Magic Ray; since either a martial type or a caster can pretty much one hit KO it, it better hope it can disable all but 1 characters on its turn. God forbid it gets surprised.

CR 13 with +9 Fort, +5 Ref and +11 Will & no SR is just asking for a SoX of any kind. Hell, Disintegrate very nearly one-shots that and it's pretty much the worst SoX for purely killing purposes against things vulnerable to everything (like Beholders). Or a boom; it only has 93 HP, something that's not only mere one full attack but mere one metamagicked out spell too. And it's slow as hell with no escape mechanism so if a surprise happens, it's not getting away.


Beholder is also an absolutely hilarious Shapechange form for a Sorcerer. Cha+HD based uncapped save DCs with 10 free action attacks each turn? Not bad with your 30+ Charisma, 20 HDs and spellcasting to actually possess some defense too. In fact, it would be absolutely ridiculous if that spell weren't pretty good otherwise too.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-03, 06:59 PM
Tvtyrant, you're awesome.

Why thank you!

NeoVid
2010-11-03, 08:01 PM
Bodaks kill the party by looking at them.

And then there's the Adamantine Horror... good thing there's only one of those, as your players would strangle you if there were 2 creatures that could cast Disjunction at level 10.

Blackfang108
2010-11-03, 09:45 PM
Bodaks kill the party by looking at them.

And then there's the Adamantine Horror... good thing there's only one of those, as your players would strangle you if there were 2 creatures that could cast Disjunction at level 10.

Again, I second the Bodak. (Or is it third at this juncture?)

Runestar
2010-11-04, 04:18 AM
Bodaks kill the party by looking at them.

So just close your eyes?

Though blinding yourself is not without problems of its own, especially if the bodak is paired with other undead. :smallamused:

Tytalus
2010-11-04, 09:16 AM
That's why I painted them as glass cannons; that's only one of their weaknesses, they also just so happen to be hilariously weak to spells. Since they can only paint one target with the Anti-Magic Ray; since either a martial type or a caster can pretty much one hit KO it, it better hope it can disable all but 1 characters on its turn. God forbid it gets surprised.


Beholders actually don't have an anti-magic ray, it's a 150ft. cone. That can easily catch multiple/all casters in a party at once.

hamishspence
2010-11-04, 09:22 AM
Beholders with the right feats from Lords of Madness, can narrow the anti-magic beam effect down, boosting its effects on the target.

Eldariel
2010-11-04, 10:21 AM
Beholders actually don't have an anti-magic ray, it's a 150ft. cone. That can easily catch multiple/all casters in a party at once.

Well, the "trying to catch them all" really falls prey to the horror that is Move Action outside extremely constricted space. And as a Cone, it's suspectible to having Line of Effect blocked too.

Prime32
2010-11-04, 01:10 PM
I thought the beholder itself was also affected by the cone? So you can't hit it with spells from behind.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-04, 01:12 PM
I thought the beholder itself was also affected by the cone? So you can't hit it with spells from behind.

Only in the direction of the cone. So if flanked/surrounded it can still attacking.

Coidzor
2010-11-04, 05:01 PM
Well, the "trying to catch them all" really falls prey to the horror that is Move Action outside extremely constricted space. And as a Cone, it's suspectible to having Line of Effect blocked too.

And in constricted space, it's susceptible to ye olde 300 pound shaved bears, right?
...Dangit. Now I want to be Heavy Weapons Guy in 3.5 x.x