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View Full Version : A Basic Psionics Overview? [3.5]



Zieu
2010-10-29, 02:49 AM
I'm looking at a few psionics classes and whatnot purely for "what if" value, as there are no groups nearby and I'm hesitant to join PbP.

However, I don't own Complete Psionics and haven't been able to find a player-submitted guide using my Google-fu, so can anyone help me out? Things like manifester level, "expending your psionic focus", and all that just go right over my head.

If it helps, I'm not really looking at schools and whatnot, I'm looking at a Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) in particular and don't know how to make that work/understand it mechanically.

Halp?

kamikasei
2010-10-29, 02:53 AM
Complete Psionic is not the main book for 3.5 psionics. The Expanded Psionics Handbook is. Most of its content (minus things like wealth tables and some monsters such as mind flayers) is on d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm).

Noodles2375
2010-10-29, 02:58 AM
For a basic walkthrough of how to build effective psychic warriors:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=162701

Same for psions:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1036.0

That should be a place to start, investigating what others have done/do and what they are capable of in general.

Eloel
2010-10-29, 04:10 AM
The most important rule in psionics is:

Now playground, say it with me:

You can only spend as much as your manifester level in powerpoints on a single power.

If it wasn't for this rule, you could trash the whole psionics system.

Zieu
2010-10-29, 04:36 AM
Ok, looking at this feat (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Psionic_Shot) for a Soul Knife 2/Soul Bow 5. Looking through those guides and assorted links, I couldn't find anything explaining psionic focus or how one expends it/gains it in the first place....explain please?

Aotrs Commander
2010-10-29, 04:46 AM
Ok, looking at this feat (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Psionic_Shot) for a Soul Knife 2/Soul Bow 5. Looking through those guides and assorted links, I couldn't find anything explaining psionic focus or how one expends it/gains it in the first place....explain please?

Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/concentration.htm)

Typically, expending your psionic focus is part of another action (like using a psionic feat such as Psionic Weapon or a using metapsionic feat) and is not an action in itself.

Psionic Meditation lets you meditate ro regain focus as Move Action, thus making it a feat pretty much always worth having if you use powers or have any psionic feats. (Soul Knife/Soul Bow may be one where it's use is more borderline, though.)

Zieu
2010-10-29, 04:53 AM
Here. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/skills/concentration.htm)

Typically, expending your psionic focus is part of another action (like using a psionic feat such as Psionic Weapon or a using metapsionic feat) and is not an action in itself.

Psionic Meditation lets you meditate ro regain focus as Move Action, thus making it a feat pretty much always worth having if you use powers or have any psionic feats. (Soul Knife/Soul Bow may be one where it's use is more borderline, though.)

So a full-round concentration check to gain focus, expend as a free action the next turn to gain assorted benefits/profit..? Ok. Sounds like the Ranger's Order of the Bow Initiate to me, but now for psions. Hmm...

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-29, 04:54 AM
So a full-round concentration check to gain focus, expend as a free action the next turn to gain assorted benefits/profit..? Ok. Sounds like the Ranger's Order of the Bow Initiate to me, but now for psions. Hmm...

Psionic Meditation (Wis 13, Concentration 7 ranks) lets you gain psionic focus as a move action.

You want this feat if you ever plan to use psionic focus.

Keld Denar
2010-10-29, 10:31 AM
Rule 1: Thou shalt never spend more PP on a power than you have MLs.

Rule 2: Thou shalt never spend more PP on a power than you have MLs.

That takes into account EVERYTHING. If a metapsionic feat (or augementation) requires you to spend extra PP on a power, you count those. If an item or ability (like Overchannel or Wild Surge) increases your ML temporarily, you can increase the amount of PP you can spend. If an item reduces the cost of manifesting a power by 1, that means that that one PP doesn't count when you are determining how many PP you can spend on the power. Etc.

Myth
2010-10-29, 10:35 AM
I completely suck at Psionics. However I've noticed that when breaking action economy is concerned, they are always mentioned.

Keld Denar
2010-10-29, 10:41 AM
There are a couple of powers (Scism, Synchronicity, Anticipatory Strike, Temporal Acceleration) that kinda warp action economy, but they REALLY REALLY REALLY cut into your "per day" staying power.

Greenish
2010-10-29, 10:44 AM
…a Soul Knife 2/Soul Bow 5.You can't enter Soul Bow before you have 5 levels in other classes.

Anyhow, Soul Knife/Bow don't really use psionic powers.

Synapse
2010-10-29, 10:54 AM
Psionics Basics
Psionics and casters are essentially the same thing. You can view psionic as the third part of the "arcane / divine / psionic" triad
1) Manifester level is the psionic equivalent to caster level.
2) Psionic creatures are those with power point pools. They can gain Psionic Focus. Psionic Focus is used or expended to power certain feats (like metapsionic feats).
3) Your resource is the Power Point. Spending PP is akin to mana in most videogames...you have a number, your powers cost another number. You deduce the power's cost from your pool to manifest it. You cannot manifest a power if its cost is greater than your current PP.
4) Many powers can be augmented, which is a customization. Powers that can be augmented show you ways to increase its cost that also change its effects.
5) You cannot spend more power points in a manifestation than your manifester level. This is to limit how much you can improve a power with augmentations and metapsionics.
6) Manifesting psionic magic, akin to divine magic, is not hindered by armor. It's components are merely descriptive too (a psion doesn't need to move nor use a component pouch. If he can perform a mental action and has the PP, he can manifest a power he knows)
7) The SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) contains the Expanded Psionics Handbook, which is the core psionic book. Complete Psionic is just an extra, like other books from the Complete series.
8) The book itself recommends that you use what they call "magic/psionic transparency", which consists primarily of seeing psionic magic as magic just like divine and arcane (thus dispel magic works on psionics, dispel power works on magic. Same for AMF, spell/power resistance and the like). You don't have to, but there's no reason not to use it.


Most powers are analog to arcane casting (it's what sorcerers wish they could be). Overall the system has a fairer balance and is much more customizable. The energy damage powers are paragons of customization for example: you can choose the type of damage, and each has its own secondary effect like more damage, forcing different saves or ignoring hardness.
Some of the psionic powers are fairly nice too. Hustle is a swift action that grants a move action. Schism gives you a second purely mental action per round (like concentrating or manifesting) at reduced manifester level. Form of Doom brings lots of lovecraftian love to your psychic warrior (which is the ultimate single class gish, the most effective one at that)

lsfreak
2010-10-29, 11:08 AM
8) The book itself recommends that you use what they call "magic/psionic transparency", which consists primarily of seeing psionic magic as magic just like divine and arcane (thus dispel magic works on psionics, dispel power works on magic. Same for AMF, spell/power resistance and the like). You don't have to, but there's no reason not to use it.

And there's a very good reason to use it. Mainly that when you don't psionics tends to break, because unless a world is built around psionics, there'll generally be no enemies that can realistically forge defenses (SR, counterspelling, dispelling) against you.

@Action Economy:
Psionics isn't really any more broken than good ol' arcane magic. Time Stop, Celerity, Quicken + reducers, Arcane Fusion, Arcane Spellsurge. Unlike Arcane though, psionics allows melee to compete via PsyWarrior or Psionic Fist combined with Hustle, Lion's Charge, and/or Schism-via-feat.

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-29, 11:22 AM
You can't counterspell powers. No, not even with Dispel Magic.

Zieu
2010-10-29, 12:30 PM
You can't enter Soul Bow before you have 5 levels in other classes.

Hmm. I've been looking at this excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) on the WotC website and it doesn't mention that anywhere. Where is your information stated?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-29, 12:36 PM
Hmm. I've been looking at this excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) on the WotC website and it doesn't mention that anywhere. Where is your information stated?

Check the pre-requisites, it says autohypnosis 8 ranks, you maximum # of skill ranks is class level +3.
Besides most prg classes canīt be entered before level 5 (barring shenenanigans)

Zieu
2010-10-29, 12:39 PM
Check the pre-requisites, it says autohypnosis 8 ranks, you maximum # of skill ranks is class level +3.
Besides most prg classes canīt be entered before level 5 (barring shenenanigans)

Aw...it seems my shenanigans have indeed been barred then. Maybe I'll throw some Ranger levels in there then...

Keld Denar
2010-10-29, 12:48 PM
Why? You'd want to advance Soulknife as much as you can so when you get into Soulbow, you get the best progression from it.

Zieu
2010-10-30, 04:44 AM
Why? You'd want to advance Soulknife as much as you can so when you get into Soulbow, you get the best progression from it.

But with a few levels of Ranger I get full BAB progression and archery-related bonus feats that also work with Soulbow (Rapid Shot at level 2? Yes please!)

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-30, 04:49 AM
But with a few levels of Ranger I get full BAB progression and archery-related bonus feats that also work with Soulbow (Rapid Shot at level 2? Yes please!)

But with five levels in Soulknife you'll have mind arrows worth a damn.

Zieu
2010-10-30, 05:13 AM
But with five levels in Soulknife you'll have mind arrows worth a damn.

Well....the free draw ability from Soul Knife 5 is redundant; Soul Bow gets to create an arrow as a free action from the get go, and shape mind blade doesn't work for arrows, I think. And Psychic Strike is a move action, which wouldn't let me use Rapid Shot from Ranger 2...and 1d8? Eh....I can pick up a +1 abililty enhancement that can do that by 2nd level of Soulbow, and a +1 bonus to mind arrows by 3rd.

I think I'll stick to Soul Knife 2/Ranger 3/Soul Bow X and see how that build ends up.

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-30, 05:22 AM
...Levels in Soulbow and Soulknife stack to determine some Soulbow special abilities. You want five levels.

Ranger is not a good class. Really.

RelentlessImp
2010-10-30, 08:22 AM
The most important rule in psionics is:

Now playground, say it with me:

You can only spend as much as your manifester level in powerpoints on a single power.

If it wasn't for this rule, you could trash the whole psionics system.

Increase to 72pt font, bold, and underline that line in XPH, please.

The Glyphstone
2010-10-30, 10:25 AM
Psionics 101:

1- Go play a video game where the casters have a 'mana' pool.
2- ???
3- Profit!

You now understand 80% of psionics' complexity. Augmenting, focuses, and NOT SPENDING MORE THAN YOUR MANIFESTER LEVEL are the remaining 20%.

Cog
2010-10-30, 02:16 PM
...Levels in Soulbow and Soulknife stack to determine some Soulbow special abilities. You want five levels.
Does that really amount to more than just another +1 enhancement bonus, at least until you've finished out Soulbow? It seemed to me some dips would be worth it. A two-level Swordsage dip, say, for the WIS-synergy on top of Zen Archery...

You can get that fourth Soulknife level after Soulbow, as well. After that it's six more levels of 'knife before you get the second boost.

Psyren
2010-10-30, 03:58 PM
Does that really amount to more than just another +1 enhancement bonus, at least until you've finished out Soulbow? It seemed to me some dips would be worth it. A two-level Swordsage dip, say, for the WIS-synergy on top of Zen Archery...

You can get that fourth Soulknife level after Soulbow, as well. After that it's six more levels of 'knife before you get the second boost.

I have to agree; I don't think +1 to attack and damage are worth the three extra levels of Soulknife, especially since it doesn't even stack with the score you get to apply to your arrow enhancements. I think some feats are more worthwhile, whether via Fighter, Ranger, Monk (for Kalashtar) or Psywar.

Zieu
2010-10-30, 04:02 PM
So.....does creating a mind blade/mind arrow not use Power Points? Because looking through the class info, it doesn't mention Power Points gained per level or how many are used with each ability. Are Soul Knives/Soul Bows just lightweight psionic classes then or am I missing something?

Psyren
2010-10-30, 04:17 PM
You are correct, Soulknives/Soulbows do not use power points at all.

The quick and dirty fix is to give them Hidden Talent instead of Wild Talent, per this article. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)

Urpriest
2010-10-30, 04:19 PM
So.....does creating a mind blade/mind arrow not use Power Points? Because looking through the class info, it doesn't mention Power Points gained per level or how many are used with each ability. Are Soul Knives/Soul Bows just lightweight psionic classes then or am I missing something?

You don't need power points to get the mind blade/mind arrow. The only reason they have any power points at all is to access psionic feats. "Lightweight psionic classes" is indeed an accurate description.

Keld Denar
2010-10-30, 04:51 PM
Yea, Soulknives pretty much only have PP because if they didn't, they couldn't become Psionically Focused, which a few of their class features depend on. Keep in mind that even if you are a psionic character, if you somehow manage to lose all of your PP (through use with Hidden Talent or PP damage/drain), you can no longer become Psionically Focused until you gain at least 1 back. Just something to keep in mind.

Cog
2010-10-30, 05:04 PM
I have to agree; I don't think +1 to attack and damage are worth the three extra levels of Soulknife, especially since it doesn't even stack with the score you get to apply to your arrow enhancements. I think some feats are more worthwhile, whether via Fighter, Ranger, Monk (for Kalashtar) or Psywar.

Well, that's not entirely right. The +1 does stack with Soulbow's numeric pluses; the enhancement abilities don't stack, though, so it's still only that single +1.

Psyren
2010-10-30, 05:06 PM
Well, that's not entirely right. The +1 does stack with Soulbow's numeric pluses; the enhancement abilities don't stack, though, so it's still only that single +1.

That's what I meant.

Personally, I like to put Psywar in there so I can use the Soulknife's PP for something. But then I'm better off just making a Soulbound Weapon Psywar with a bow or something.

Zieu
2010-10-30, 05:20 PM
Also, the Soulbow's mind arrow: classified as pierce damage, force damage or both?

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-30, 05:22 PM
It's an arrow.

It deals piercing damage.

Zieu
2010-10-30, 05:27 PM
It's an arrow.

It deals piercing damage.

"A semisolid arrow composed of psychic energy distilled from your mind"

Forgive me for needing clarification.

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-30, 05:30 PM
The arrow is identical in all ways (except visually) to an arrow shot from a composite longbow.

I don't see why this needs clarification.

Zieu
2010-10-30, 05:35 PM
I don't see why this needs clarification.

I thought a psychic attack might mean it dealt force damage.

Easy now, this is new territory for me.

Psyren
2010-10-30, 05:38 PM
I don't see why this needs clarification.

One thing you might want to clarify is how the rules for Soulbows ended up in Complete Mage. :smalltongue:

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-30, 05:40 PM
One thing you might want to clarify is how the rules for Soulbows ended up in Complete Mage. :smalltongue:

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Eloel
2010-10-30, 05:41 PM
One thing you might want to clarify is how the rules for Soulbows ended up in Complete Mage. :smalltongue:

Soulbows were in Complete Psionics last I checked.

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-30, 05:43 PM
Soulbows were in Complete Psionics last I checked.

(Psst: He's making fun of me for accidentally putting "Complete Mage" rather than "Complete Psionic" in the quote box.)

Zieu
2010-10-31, 05:56 AM
Also, with Soulknife 2/Soulbow 1 for example, would my manifester level be 3? Or do these classes not officially have manifester levels...?

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-31, 05:59 AM
Soulknives don't have a manifester level, because they don't manifest powers.

Monks don't have a caster level, even though they have magical abilities. Same thing.

Greenish
2010-10-31, 09:25 AM
I thought a psychic attack might mean it dealt force damage.Nothing deals Force damage unless it's specified to do so.

The Glyphstone
2010-10-31, 10:02 AM
Nothing deals Force damage unless it's specified to do so.

Indeed. Energy Ray does elemental damage, and is a psychic attack. Mind Thrust does untyped damage, and is a psychic attack. Psychic =/= force damage....the only psionic ability I can think of that does Force damage is Concussion Blast.

Esser-Z
2010-11-03, 09:07 AM
One thing you might want to clarify is how the rules for Soulbows ended up in Complete Mage. :smalltongue:
Looking for the Tome of Battle errata, of course!

Zieu
2010-11-07, 07:01 PM
Alright, another question for the panel:

Referring to this feat (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Psionic_Shot) and using my understanding of psionic focus, expending your focus is a free action, so you can still do a full-round action (duh). My question is this: does the Psionic Shot feat add the additional 2d6 to each attack made that round, such those from Rapid Shot or multiple attacks/round?

It seems like it would add it to each attack, but I ask because the link above uses both the singular and plural form of "ranged attack", so I thought I'd get some clarification before I bust it out in-game.

Yuki Akuma
2010-11-07, 07:11 PM
It says "attack". It's just one.

Zieu
2010-11-07, 07:26 PM
It says both. Hence, confusion.



Psionic Shot [Psionic]

You can charge your ranged attacks with additional damage potential.


Your ranged attack deals +2d6 points of damage.

Urpriest
2010-11-07, 07:32 PM
It says both. Hence, confusion.

The plural is in the fluff text. It could be saying that it gives you the capability to give some subset of your shots the extra damage, without specifying that they will be in the same round.

Zieu
2010-11-07, 07:37 PM
So RAW, only one attack gets the extra damage? Hmm. Not such a great feat choice after all, it seems..

Yuki Akuma
2010-11-07, 07:45 PM
If you get Psicrystal Affinity and Psychic Containment, you could use it on two ranged attacks.

... But yeah. Psionic ranged isn't that great. At least Fell Shot is nice, but Deep Impact is better - because you can Power Attack with melee weapons.

Psyren
2010-11-07, 08:01 PM
If you're using it on a shot that wouldn't get iteratives anyway (e.g. Eldritch Blast, or a Ray) then it's not so bad. It also can be gotten pretty early on - +2d6 isn't bad punch for levels 1-3, even if you lack the feats to repeat the technique rapidly.

Kallisti
2010-11-07, 09:38 PM
Has anyone yet mentioned that YOU CANNOT SPEND POWER POINTS IN EXCESS OF YOUR MANIFESTOR LEVEL on any power?

Because YOU CANNOT SPEND POWER POINTS IN EXCESS OF YOUR MANIFESTOR LEVEL on any power.

Many, many people believe Psionics is broken because they do not know or do not understand this rule.

More campaigns have banned Psionics due to misunderstanding that rule than because it feels pointless to learn another system when there are already existing magic systems.

...okay, that might be an exaggeration, but the point is that "YOU CANNOT SPEND POWER POINTS IN EXCESS OF YOUR MANIFESTOR LEVEL on any power" is pretty much the Golden Rule of D&D 3.5 psionics.

Psyren
2010-11-07, 09:59 PM
Yes, this was covered (more quietly) in post #4 actually... :smalltongue:

Blackfang108
2010-11-07, 10:03 PM
Yes, this was covered (more quietly) in post #4 actually... :smalltongue:

It's never too loud. Trust me.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-07, 10:05 PM
Actually I think most people ban psionics when they see the whole "immune to anti-magic effects." Its hard enough to balance mages in D&D, there is almost no way to do it with psionics in any campaign that isn't built around it.

Except psionic Mindflayers of course.

Psyren
2010-11-07, 10:05 PM
Actually, transparency is the default ruleset. Psionics Are Different is the variant.

Kallisti
2010-11-07, 10:07 PM
Yes, this was covered (more quietly) in post #4 actually... :smalltongue:

Hmmm. Really? Someone mentioned that YOU CANNOT SPEND POWER POINTS IN EXCESS OF YOUR MANIFESTOR LEVEL on any power?

Good. It's important to remember that YOU CANNOT SPEND POWER POINTS IN EXCESS OF YOUR MANIFESTOR LEVEL on any power.

I was just making sure someone had mentioned that YOU CANNOT SPEND POWER POINTS IN EXCESS OF YOUR MANIFESTOR LEVEL on any power.

...I'm done now. YOU CANNOT SPEND POWER POINTS IN EXCESS OF YOUR MANIFESTOR LEVEL on any power.

The Glyphstone
2010-11-07, 10:10 PM
Actually I think most people ban psionics when they see the whole "immune to anti-magic effects." Its hard enough to balance mages in D&D, there is almost no way to do it with psionics in any campaign that isn't built around it.

Except psionic Mindflayers of course.

That falls under the category of 'people who skim the rules instead of reading them in detail' - they see 'unaffected by antimagic' and completely miss the part right above where it says 'variant'.:smallannoyed:

Blackfang108
2010-11-07, 10:11 PM
I believe our local Eldrich Abomination has the right of it. :smallcool:

Esser-Z
2010-11-07, 10:31 PM
That falls under the category of 'people who skim the rules instead of reading them in detail' - they see 'unaffected by antimagic' and completely miss the part right above where it says 'variant'.:smallannoyed:
Yeah. I'm pretty certain transparency is default--meaning anti-,dispel, and similar effects treat Psionics and Magic as the same thing.