[3.5] "My GM wants to kill me!" OR "6 hours of combat later..."

[DragonSinged]

So. As the title says, I fear that my GM wants my character in her game dead. D-E-D, dead.
Before I go any farther, this topic is related to this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=171914

But the events that followed were ridiculous enough I thought it deserved its own thread.
Anyways, ONWARD TO THE POINT!

THE LEAD-UP:

So anyways, in-game, the party had split up a little, temporarily. Most of the party had teleported to safety with a captive goon, for questioning. That was how the party found out about the whole mind-control thing that I mentioned in the other thread. My character ("The Professor") had teleported to his tower. The Cleric, after finding out details about this whole domination thing, had blown a few sending spells to fill the Prof. in on the details. He thought, "To hell with this, the government's being dominated from the inside? I can't just sit here, I've gotta tell someone, get the ball rolling, get something done!"
Knowledge (Law) check for how to get emergency situation actions implemented by the governemt: 43. Sweet.

Alright, teleport to the capital city, submit report to proper dude. Dude says, "We gotta take this higher up, will you come with me?" We go to central military intelligence building, I get shoved into a room with only one entrance/exit, and am then told that the room is teleport/scry proof. There's one guy in the room, across from me, basically the country's Spymaster. I ask, does he have silver flecks in his eyes? Answer: Yes. "WALL OF STONE!" across the room between me and him. Hah, loser, you can't teleport out, and the exit is behind me. Guards come in, I surrender peacefully, escorted to a cell. My GM tells me maybe we should do the rest of this in a 1 on 1 session the next day, after she's had time to design the building that I'm in.
So that's the set up.

Oh! Also, the day before, when we'd captured that dude that the party interrogated, I grabbed one of his buddy's stashes of loot, which happened to include a Cube of Force: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Cube_of_Force

WHAT HAPPENED:

Next day. I come over, we get things started. My dude's in a cell. She tells me now, no, it wasn't just that room that was teleport warded, it's the entire building. O...k... Oh, and also, it's some sort of modified Dimensional Anchor? That covers the entire building? So I can't use blink to walk through walls or anything, either, and apparently I can't cast summon monster, either. Great. So into the room with my cell walks the big bad from the entire campaign thus-far, who the party has been trying to find for ages. Only now I've found him, but I'm all alone. And I know he's also a wizard, and probably a higher level than I am. Great. Oh, he also has 3 friends with him. Um... "WALL OF STONE!" between them and the bars of the cell. So it goes: Entrance to room, them, wall of stone, 5 ft. space, cell bars, me. Next I cast Shatter on the lock on the cell door, step out of the cell, greater invis on myself. They take some time smashing through the wall of stone, and then start piling in, one casts glitterdust. I pass my save, so I'm visible, but not blind. I tumble past the lot of them (took an AoO, but 1 is better than 4), turn around, "WEB!" Then I book it. Now they're basically all lined up in a 5 ft. wide corridor, webbed in, and luckily for me, the closest to me seems to be the most incompetent, so he keeps failing his saves to escape, and as a result, no one can get past him! Woo! I book it out of there, cast Solid Fog in the hallway behind me.
(I'm gonna skip some of the random getting lost in the hallways bits, cause they're boring, though allow me to point out that apparently my Int 28 Wizard can't remember the last 2 turns he took getting escorted to the cell. Great.)
Anyways, eventually I start to find my way out of the place, bolt through a door... into a room with five 10th level fighters aiming crossbows at me, and 2 10th level wizards. Allow me to remind you that I am a 10th level wizard. Oh, also, the exit to the room is blocked by large steel doors, which have no handle or latch or anything, and no levers in the room to open them. I learn through a Knowledge (Arcana) check that the only thing that will open these doors are the password, or brute force. Great. I don't have any brute force spells prepared, and apparently even Knock won't open these. The only thing I've got going for me is that I'm better at D&D than my GM, who doesn't really know how to play a wizard, and these are sort of goon-fighters, not really optimized in any way, shape, or form.
Anyways, they fire, I get minor scrapes, "GLITTERDUST!" Hoh snap! Blinded EVERY ONE of them, except for 1 fighter. Search the room briefly for anything that will help me, no luck. Fighter drops crossbow, charges me with a Greatsword (BTW, every fighter in this building has a crossbow or composite longbow, and a greatsword), hits. Ouch.
"Does he have silver flecks in his eyes?" "No." "DOMINATE PERSON!"
I get the password from him, tell him to protect me, we leave room... straight into a trap. I pass my save, then another guard who entered the room passes his save (but ends on the trap), then my new bodyguard.. fails his save. Him and the other guard are trapped in a cage. Ok, I get him to tell me all the turns I'm going to need to take to get out of here in the safest route for me, and I write them down. Dash up the stairs, down a hallway.... into more magical doors. DAMMIT! Run back, yell "WHAT ARE ALL THE PASSWORDS I'LL NEED, IN ORDER?", run back, yell password, run into room full of MORE guards and wizards. AGH. There's 8 fighters and 3 wizards in this room, and the room is bigger, so I can't catch them all in a single glitterdust or whatever.
However.. remember that Cube of Force I mentioned earlier? Hell yeah I'm using that! (Most of the hallways in this place are too narrow to use it in, though.)

Anyways, this is taking way too long to relate everything that happened, step-by-step.

THE HIGHLIGHTS:

At one point, the battle map consisted of my fig, a 10 foot space around him, surrounded by 30 other figs, either fighters or wizards (Oh, and there were a couple clerics), all at least as high a level as I, all wanting to kill me. Thank god my GM didn't know what that Cube of Force could do when she dropped it (she thought it consumed X charges per round, not per minute.)
Ended up trying to convince another guard to come with me, promised him if he did I'd keep him safe. He said no, so I dominated him. Enter Jenkins. I kept my word, I kept him safe.
Rounded a corner at one point into 4 wizards with readied actions. 1 of them cast Dispel Magic on me, the other 3? Scorching Ray. I counter-dispelled the Dispel magic, but now I'm dealing with 9 rays coming at me that do 4d6 damage each. I'm a wizard, I don't have that many hit points (especially after all I've dealt with up to this point). My GM is rolling the damage dice, when I remember something, and start laughing. The rays hit, I don't even remember how much damage. I tell her my character laughs, she asks if he looks hurt? Nope, I say. What, why not? Sorry, I'm Half-Gold Dragon. I'm immune to fire! "GLITTERDUST!" More blind wizards.
At the very end of the building, the exit is barred by the biggest iron doors yet, and they're barred from the outside. WTH? Ok... And this is where I finally re-read "Shatter" and realize, no, it's not a single object up to 10 pounds... it's up to 10 pounds PER CASTER LEVEL. Cue me blowing open the doors while chugging Jenkins potion of Cure Light Wounds, Brawndo-style. Then I take Jenkins by the hand, activate my cube of force, and slowly (10 ft. movement speed) float out of the building, arrows bouncing away harmlessly, until we reach the top of the outer walls and teleport out of existance.


So anyways.... Yeah. 6 HOURS OF COMBAT. There were at least 60 guys in that place that were all at least as high a level as I was. At the beginning, my GM said she thought I had a chance to get out alive. Later, she said she was surprised I made it past the first guard checkpoint, and hadn't expected me to. (There were 3 checkpoints in all, with each one more difficult and heavily manned than the last, plus guards all through the hallways and whatnot in strike teams.)
I pretty much only survived through sheer luck, skill, and liberal use of Glitterdust, Solid Fog, and Shatter (Lotta blind fighters & wizards in that building when I left). I didn't deal a single hit point of damage to anyone, and escaped with about 2 HP remaining.


SO YEAH. I'm not entirely sure what to do. She still hasn't figured out how much XP I earned for that.
I'm sorely tempted to just quit the game, but after actually surviving that hell-hole, I would feel very bad abandoning my character.
On a somewhat related note - If my character, half-gold dragon that he is, were to reach level 15 at some point, assuming that his INT has gone up a bit by then, would a casting of Polymorph any Object (Yes, ridiculously broken spell, I know) enable him to permanently become a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon? That would be pretty sweet revenge.

[absolmorph]

From what I can see, yes, it would, and you've earned it.
Same kingdom: Both are dragons and probably count as animals for this, so yes. Duration factor of 5.
Same class: Again, dragons. Duration factor is 7.
Related: Half-Gold Dragon to Gold Dragon. I'd say yes. Duration factor is 9, meaning it's permanent. If your DM disagrees, go for Ancient, which brings it up to 9, too, but requires a slightly dumber less ridiculously intelligent dragon.
Although the HD might put a kabosh on that, depending on if PaO keeps the HD restriction.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure that should at least get you close to leveling twice.
Assuming you just hit level 10 and your DM doesn't consider it all one long encounter.

[Morph Bark]

From what I can see, yes, it would, and you've earned it.

:smallconfused: "Earning" the right to use one of the most broken spells ever?

Now that's just crazy.

Either you use it anyway to just be a douchebag and screw over anything the DM prepared for you and end the campaign preemptively, or you don't do it all.

From the previous thread it seems like you enjoyed the campaign so far though, and you've been RPing with this DM for quite some time. In that case you should know her a little and how she might react to the use of mechanically broken things. It's no use screwing over the campaign and breaking up the group over something small after all.


On the plus side, you got a whole ton of action. Is that a bad thing or a good thing? :smalltongue:

EDIT: It shouldn't matter if it all counts as one long encounter. The XP tables basically double the XP reward if the CR of an encounter increases by 2 (meaning a twice-as-strong monster or twice as many opponents of the same level). The only problem would be if the total CR would put them at a too-high CR for him to get XP from. If that happens, then you need a serious talk to the DM out-of-game, but I doubt that will happen. She just seems as if she wanted to give you something tougher for once (which is highly possibly if you're trying to throw over governments that likely have a lot of people and guars).

[DragonSinged]

@absolmorph - I agree with your analysis of the technical questions of the spell. However, M-Bark has a point...

@M-Bark Like I said, you have a point.. The problem I'm running into, though, is I feel like I haven't really actually been enjoying the game much for a while now, and pretty much only continuing to play because the GM and the players are all good friends of mine. I mean, the GM and I were roommates for a year... but.. sadly, it's becoming more and more obvious that she's really not (and it kind of pains me to say/admit this) very good at GMing. It's been over 2 years now, and she still barely knows even the core rules of D&D. She freely changes the way spells work and whatnot, with no prior warning, just to fit the plot ideas that she's got (For example: A guard we ran into had a gibbled leg from being kneecapped by a Kobold. The Cleric of the party says she'll cast "Heal" on him to fix his leg. The GM says, no, she can't do that. "You can't fix all the worlds problems." What. I don't even.)... It just very frequently feels like she's running the game so she can tell her story, instead of running it so that everyone can have fun, and unfortunately for her, there's these pesky player characters running around messing up her plot. [ /rant]

Pant.. pant... Ok, ok, I have a bit of pent-up frustration about this, obviously. Does that make it ok for me to cast a super broken spell? Probably not. It's damned tempting, though. I'll do it if I decide to quit the game, for sure, just have him transform and fly away, leaving nothing behind but an echoing "Sod off....."

EDIT for including more details:
Ton of action, good or bad thing? Well... it was a bit of both. It felt good to get past every G-d damned thing she threw at me, but it also felt the whole time like... You know when you're GMing in a combat, and you kind of start to get the mindset where it feels like, because you're controlling the bad guys who are fighting the players, then if the players win, that means you lose? I start to get that sometimes, and have to take a step back and remind myself that it's all for fun. Anyways, what I'm getting at is it felt like she wasn't taking that step back, and was actively trying to win. That definitely stressed me, as the player, out quite a bit. Also, regarding that "too high CR".. I'm assuming you're looking at the XP rewards table? Note that at the top of that it says something like "For a single monster". But what I think absolmorph was getting at is that there's one line in the PHB I think that says something about how the max XP you can get from an encounter is enough to gain your next level and then put you 1 XP off from gaining the one after that. If that comes up, I think I might argue that the PHB wasn't counting on a single encounter of 6 hours of combat.

[Fizban]

It sounds like you had fun, but yeah, that was completely ridiculous. I would assume you either weren't supposed to fight, or they would have somehow "captured you" even if you should have died. If your DM did intend for you to fight past all those guys, on your own, well you did mention she's not as "good" at DnD as you. Two characters of the same level is supposed to be an even 50/50 fight, and you were in enemy territory, without teleportation, fighting multiple people the same level as you. That is not something you should walk away from. The only reason you lived was because the DM didn't use any spells above 2nd level from what I'm reading, and you had a magic item the DM didn't even read before giving it out.

I mean just, wow. Again, you sound like you had fun, but if I had a DM come up with that scenario and actually expect me to fight it out, I probably would quit right then.

[DragonSinged]

@Pala - I mean Fizban - Oh, I cut out lots of stuff that she used, walls of force and such. What else.. Oh! Of course! After that barrage of Scorching Rays? When she found out I was immune to fire? Whelp, I dunno if every wizard in the place had some kind of telepathic bond or something, but not another one ever cast another Scorching ray at me. Nope, it was all Cones of Cold after that. >.<!
Oh, and a maximized Magic Missile, although that stopped once she realized I had Shield up.

[holywhippet]

The phrase "kiiler GM" springs to mind. No idea why she wanted your character dead but there's certain things a DM should not by trying to pull.

Maybe you should volunteer to DM your own campaign for a while. She might learn something from the experience.

[DragonSinged]

@holywhippet - Actually, I am currently also running a game. She wasn't able to join, however, due to time constraints of a new job at the time of the game starting. My players tell me they're having a great time, though, which is very gratifying. I've got some ideas for encounters for them planned out which I am rather excited about.. though that's off-topic, and a subject for another thread, I think. But... yeah. I'm really not sure what the deal was with this whole thing, nothing like this has really come up before, and she claims she wasn't trying to kill me, but then again, also claims that she didn't expect me to make it out.

Oh, and for anyone wondering, she had also told me (OOC) that if my character had gotten caught, he would have either been killed (if he was lucky, she says), or, worse, had that weird domination thing done to him.

[Morph Bark]

Perhaps the best way to go about it then is to get one of the other players (or yourself) to take up DMing in her place, or find someone willing to DM for your group. As a player she'll have the chance to become more familiar with the rules from that side of the table and to experience how frustrating some DM choices can be.

It certainly helped for me.

[absolmorph]

@absolmorph - I agree with your analysis of the technical questions of the spell. However, M-Bark has a point...

@M-Bark But what I think absolmorph was getting at is that there's one line in the PHB I think that says something about how the max XP you can get from an encounter is enough to gain your next level and then put you 1 XP off from gaining the one after that. If that comes up, I think I might argue that the PHB wasn't counting on a single encounter of 6 hours of combat.
By "earned" I meant "you apparently need to have things ready that are broken so that you can avoid death". Killer DM sprung to my mind.

And, yes, that is what I was referring to. I would give you a lot of experience. With the DM working against you and kinda cheating (could be passed off as those wizards not noticing whatever signs you have of being half-gold-dragon) and you going through 6 hours of combat as a lone wizard with no damage spells, you deserve a damn good reward. Especially since you didn't mention any treasure. For 6 hours for combat.
Now I'm glad my caster players have agreed to focusing on support.

EDIT: I'd like to say that I'm not suggesting you use PaO to it's full power and use everything the dragon form has to offer. Use the Alternate Form ability to mostly stick with your original form, and then when things start to go south hard return to dragon form. Basically standard optimization procedure in a low-optimization game: save the blasting for when your party can't handle things without you.

[FelixG]

Im guessing she also ignored the little part in the GMs section about how many character leveled people should be in a city of X sized....

Sounds to me like she not only ran the city out of higher level folks but the entire country :P

I have seen "story" GMs before and they are not that much fun, i promise you if you use PaO to make yourself a dragon she will try to find a way to screw you up all the same, don't be surprised if the big bad suddenly changes into a god of some sort :P

[WinWin]

Sound like a high pressure game. I think the DM may have been going for suspense, not an insta-kill. Face it, if the DM wants to kill your character, there is not much you can do about it.

Sounds like fun, but 6 hours might be a bit much. At the very least, it sounds like a memorable game.

[DragonSinged]

@M-Bark Would that be the best option? Yeah, it totally probably would be. (Yeah, totally probably, I said it.) Will that ever actually happen? No way, she's got this whole huge political intrigue plot worked out where none of us players really has any idea of what's actually going on at any given point, and the game world is kind of her brain-baby.

I don't know. I'm going to try again to subtly let her know that a problem actually exists in the first place... she has been very determined not to notice, up to this point, even after direct conversations about it.
Le sigh... This is why gaming with friends can be dangerous. :smallfrown: I really don't want to hurt her feelings or anything, but I also am getting sick of leaving each session seething about the decisions that were made, or this or that or whatever. [ /self-pity-fest]

I would like to point out that (in case it was unclear) the Poly any Object comments were intended as jest. My character has never cast any sort of polymorph spell or anything like that. He's designed to control battles so that the rest of the party feels like they're the ones winning all the battles.. he's never even bothered to learn so much as 'Alter Self' (though as I understand it, that spell, broken as it already is, would be even more ridiculous for a half-dragon to cast. :smalleek: )

[Psyx]

There's hope.

She used GM fiat in a few cases because she doesn't understand which rules she needs to get the effect she wants (ie the whole dimensional anchor thing).

But it seems that often the monsters were boned because pretty much all of them failed saves at critical moments. If your GM was just trying to murder you, that wouldn't have happened.

[DragonSinged]

@Psyx In this particular instance, she wasn't using a GM's Screen to hide her rolls or anything, and she isn't the type to like fudging rolls anyways. But just because the GM isn't cheating doesn't mean she's not trying to kill me. But then again, rereading what you said, "if she was just trying to murder you.."
Which is potentially true. I'm not certain that she was outright trying to do everything she could within the confines of the scenario that she had set up to kill me. It just... really felt like she was, for the above listed reasons.
Again, I am still fairly confused about the whole thing, and attempting not to be too offended.
At the very least, I feel like I've earned at least a small amount of bragging rights, after surviving something like a CR 60 encounter with a level 10 wizard. :smalltongue:

[Aotrs Commander]

At the very least, I feel like I've earned at least a small amount of bragging rights, after surviving something like a CR 60 encounter with a level 10 wizard. :smalltongue:

[Nit Pick]EL 60. Remember that CR and EL are not the same thing.

And EL is basically a nearly useless function, since it has no impact on XP, only on how "hard" the encounter was (a poor judge at that). XP is awarded by CR. Maybe proportionally modifed by the EL - which in your case would merely mean more XP. Since, y'know, you probably should get XP for each CR 10 creature you beat. Not necessarily full XP, maybe be, but the amount for each one should be a proportion of whatever a CR 10 is worth to you.

Doubt you will though, in practise.

[/Nitpick]

[DragonSinged]

@Aotrs Commander - Ah, yes, you're right about that, and my mistake, although that does remind me that it's like 4 AM where I am and I have yet to sleep, so I think I'll get to that.
It's a little sad that I'll probably never know exactly what the EL of the encounter was, though, especially with the weird modifiers like the mass Dimensional Anchor and Passworded, Knock-proof doors and whatnot. >.<
Ah well.
Although, if the party tries telling me we should sell the Cube of Force and split the cash, I'm going to have to tell them, "Sod off! I earned that damned Cube!" :smalltongue:
Anyways, G'night to the Playground, I'll be back to check on this tomorrow.
Oh, and by the way,to those of you who have actually gone through the trouble of reading what I've written here: Thank you! I know I tend to ramble a fair amount, and I appreciate it if you've made it this far. :smallwink:

[Killer Angel]

Oh, and for anyone wondering, she had also told me (OOC) that if my character had gotten caught, he would have either been killed (if he was lucky, she says), or, worse, had that weird domination thing done to him.

If this is the premise, i suggest to resolve the issue OOG with your DM, or be prepared to have a colossal bounty on your PC's head.

anyway: epic fight!


Oh, and by the way,to those of you who have actually gone through the trouble of reading what I've written here: Thank you! I know I tend to ramble a fair amount, and I appreciate it if you've made it this far. :smallwink:

Yoou're welcome. :smallsmile:

[Eldan]

The Encounter Calculator over on d20srd says that a level 10 defeating 60 CR10 monsters should get 180'000 XP and around 90'000 gold. That should put you at around level 21 :smalltongue:

[caden_varn]

It does sound like you need to have a one-on-one, polite discussion with the DM about the situation. I see that you have already had discussions about it which don't seem to have helped, so maybe you need to be a bit more direct.

I'd suggest talking to her about this specific incident, lay out your concerns (this seems to have been specifically set up to kill you with little chance of survival), and ask for her intentions were, and why. It's important to try to get her to talk as well, so you can see what is at the root of the issue.

Based on this, you can get a much better idea of whether you want to stay in the group or leave. Depending on her personality and how you handle it, leaving the group does not have to cause bad blood...

[jiriku]

Wow, that was a blast to read! Congrats on surviving and making your getaway! With Jenkins, no less.

From a GM's perspective, the things that troubled me most were the uses of fiat to nerf your spells on-the-fly, and the obvious metagaming.

Teleport, blink, knock, and such are staple wizard spells. A good GM maintains a contract with the players that says "You want to be able to do cool stuff with your characters, and I'm going to give you opportunities to do so." C***-blocking the wizard with dimensional anchor fields and un-knock-able doors while disallowing any attempt to dispel or defeat these barriers (or observe/learn about their presence before getting into trouble) is just low-class, and a mark of an uncreative and arbitrary DM.

Now, speaking as a proud Killer DM myself, I have no problem with creating zones with unusually high concentrations of high-level foes, and I don't promise my players that every encounter will be level-appropriate, but it's poor DMing when NPCs begin to act according to knowledge that the DM has but the NPC lacks (such as the sudden switch from fire to cold spells by all NPCs after the DM realized you had fire immunity, or the sudden lack of magic missiles after the DM realized you had MM immunity). After all, one of the DM's jobs is to create a believable world and aid you in the suspension of disbelief, and if all NPCs are blatantly obvious avatars of the DM, it's hard to pretend that they're anything else. The magically locked doors that can't be opened by magic and are barred from the OUTSIDE are also a cheap trick. High-security prisons might be built in such a way, but military intelligence facilities are not. And if the "military intelligence facility" was actually a high-security prison, I'm getting the impression that your character has impressive enough Knowledge skills to be entitled to a chance to know that before walking in the door.

All that criticism aside, I do like the fact that she let your stuff work. Dominated guards did in fact know and share passwords, no one showed up with a fiat cube-of-force-busting-item when you were using the cube, NPCs didn't mysteriously all acquire blindsight after you started relying heavily on glitterdust. She stacked the deck hard against you, but she kept her paws off your character after the initial dimensional anchor field d***ery designed to entrap you. Every time you did something awesome, she rolled with it and just gave you another mountain to climb in the next room. You can build from that. There's hope for this DM! :smallsmile:

[riddles]

It sounds like she had a plan to railroad you, thinking you wouldn't be stupid enough to try and escape. As others have mentioned, I like that she allowed you your crowning moment of awesome, so she is capable of pushing you to your limits as an optimiser, if only through lots of overpowered encounters.

Maybe the switch to cold was to put more pressure on you. Or maybe the wizards had a magic item with a telepathy effect (you didn't exactly stop to check and this IS a high security government building).

I'd also like to point out that, as you described it, it was not one big el60 encounter. You had very little time between encounters, but you didn't fight them all at once. Not to take away from your achievement, but you certainly won't get to level 21

[BeholderSlayer]

Personally this one sounds like it was incredible fun, but I really don't like a metagaming DM. Saying "OH! You're immune to fire? COLD!" "Oh, you have Shield? [SOMETHING ELSE]" is really, really lame. It didn't matter in the long run, but I would have brought it up if you had died.

Other than that, I think I would have had a blast doing what you did. I would have loved it, every second.

If she really counted that as one encounter, going by the Single Monster awards (since 60 level 10 monsters is not on the mixed encounter level table) that's 180,000 XP. Toss in the difficult circumstances and (depending on if you'd consider the dimensional locks, warded doors and traps as "significantly" or "twice" as difficult) you're looking at anywhere from 270,000 to 360,000 XP, by the books.

So that'd be enough to make you level 25 or very near 29, respectively.


I'd also like to point out that, as you described it, it was not one big el60 encounter. You had very little time between encounters, but you didn't fight them all at once. Not to take away from your achievement, but you certainly won't get to level 21

I wouldn't say that. Even using the "Encounter Numbers" table in the DMG is showing me that he's going to be getting close to the same amount of experience, possibly even more than using the single monster encounter table.

He probably won't get to level 21, but that'd be by DM fiat and not by the rules. By the numbers, he's looking at level 25-28, IIRC less than 10k to 29.

[Aotrs Commander]

I wouldn't say DragonSinged should expect full XP for beating each and every one (as DragonSinged didn't actually kill or take out any enemies, merely escaped them). But even with, say, a fairly mean 10% of the reward for each target being out manouvered would be more than enough reward I think. Even assuming DragonSinged's character is character level 10 plus LA for half-dragon (which, while technically correct might not the case) at ECL 13, that's still 1300 XP per creature... If DragonSinged dealt with, say 40 of these (and that would seem to be erring on the low side), even at 10% that's still 5200 XP right there. (That probably being something of a low-end estimate by my reckoning.)

Personally, were I the awarding DM, I'd probably go with between 50% and 20% or so. (Mind you, I tend to only award 50% XP for combats aside from "bosses" anyway.)

[FelixG]

I wouldn't say DragonSinged should expect full XP for beating each and every one (as DragonSinged didn't actually kill or take out any enemies, merely escaped them). But even with, say, a fairly mean 10% of the reward for each target being out manouvered would be more than enough reward I think. Even assuming DragonSinged's character is character level 10 plus LA for half-dragon (which, while technically correct might not the case) at ECL 13, that's still 1300 XP per creature... If DragonSinged dealt with, say 40 of these (and that would seem to be erring on the low side), even at 10% that's still 5200 XP right there. (That probably being something of a low-end estimate by my reckoning.)

Personally, were I the awarding DM, I'd probably go with between 50% and 20% or so. (Mind you, I tend to only award 50% XP for combats aside from "bosses" anyway.)

Even if he ran away from them that still beats the encounters, nothing says you have to kill each one to get the XP. He is entitled to as much to get him to the next level and then put him 1 xp below the next level according the to the DMG

[BeholderSlayer]

Personally, I think that rule in the DMG is pretty stupid.

[AtwasAwamps]

I feel like I've been here before. Like we are brothers in ranting about different things. Sir, I salute you.

I'm not allowed to play wizards in our 3.5 games. I took control of a poorly made PC wizard and as a result a new houserule was slammed into place saying that summoned monsters don't understand their summoners commands perfectly, purely because I locked down an enemy wizard with a huge centipede. I was very, very mad because the DM dropped that rule out of nowhere after I had summoned a bunch of owls to Aid Another, literally making me waste a spell just to mess with me because the wizard was being effective at doing something that wasn't "I throw fireball".

My vengeance is advising other people in their spell selection. VENGEANCE.

[jiriku]

Personally, I think that rule in the DMG is pretty stupid.

It does have the advantage of ensuring that PCs well, progress through their level progression.



Even if he ran away from them that still beats the encounters, nothing says you have to kill each one to get the XP. He is entitled to as much to get him to the next level and then put him 1 xp below the next level according the to the DMG

1 XP short of double-leveling is reasonable, IMO. The PC single-handedly confounded the master villain, hoodwinked scores of highly capable, well-prepared opponents in direct, high-risk combat, escaped what was effectively a maximum-security anti-wizard prison, and even made off with a dominated guard, who can now be interrogated for additional information. He could hardly have humiliated the BBEG worse unless he slept with his wife and defecated in his chamber pot.

[AtwasAwamps]

Wait, isn't that what chamber pots are for?

[Tharck]

At least she didnt cheat the dice to kill you.

Sounds like she is a inexperienced DM, someone who isn't that great at story telling, or a mix of both.

What she needs is some advice on how to incorperate the players ability into the story, rather than working them out of it. That's usually the difference between a good and bad DM. She also sounds like she is in an atmosphere of Player VS DM - and this is the fault of both sides.

Instead of the "Heal" not working on the guard, it should have worked and been the alternative solution to gaining his trust other than a moderate Diplomancy check.

The spells you cast from your mems also seems really convienant.

[AtwasAwamps]

I do have to admit, "You can't solve all the world's problems" is my new favorite reason for 'Heal doesn't work'.




The spells you cast from your mems also seems really convienant.

Eh. They seemed like standard control-type wizard spells to me...universally useful and fairly run of the mill.

[arrowhen]

I had almost the same DM once, only her combats were too *easy* and any PC who *did* die always got Resurrect Plot cast on them.

Yours sounds *awesome*, in a badwrongfun sort of way.

[Tharck]

I do have to admit, "You can't solve all the world's problems" is my new favorite reason for 'Heal doesn't work'.



Eh. They seemed like standard control-type wizard spells to me...universally useful and fairly run of the mill.

Agreed. Just the amount, 2 shatters, 2 glitterdusts, web. Understand if he had time to prepare for wanting to escape a dungeon but the mems reflect those of someone who was prepared for escaping a dungeon that he could not fight his way out from. /Shrug.

[Psyx]

I do have to admit, "You can't solve all the world's problems" is my new favorite reason for 'Heal doesn't work'.

It's my new favourite reason for telling a player anything doesn't work!


[QUOTE]and a mark of an uncreative and arbitrary DM.

I sort of disagree. The GM knew the effect that she wanted (no teleporting/easy out) but simply lacked the rules knowledge to implement it. GM fiat isn't too bad in such cases. I'd rather have a good storyteller who waved a magic wand sometimes and said 'no', than a bookish GM who lacked good campaign material.

The very fact that she'd actually got the whole thing planned out and statted also demonstrates that it was survivable. Murderous GMs would have simply over-statted the first three rooms in the knowledge that you couldn't have got any further.

The "fire...errr...cold!" thing though... That would be very lame.

[FelixG]

I sort of disagree. The GM knew the effect that she wanted (no teleporting/easy out) but simply lacked the rules knowledge to implement it. GM fiat isn't too bad in such cases. I'd rather have a good storyteller who waved a magic wand sometimes and said 'no', than a bookish GM who lacked good campaign material.

The very fact that she'd actually got the whole thing planned out and statted also demonstrates that it was survivable. Murderous GMs would have simply over-statted the first three rooms in the knowledge that you couldn't have got any further.

The "fire...errr...cold!" thing though... That would be very lame.

She obviously DIDNT have the whole thing stated out though, she was just throwing spells off the wizards that seemed right at the time demonstrated by their use of his weaknesses after it didnt work once

And she stated ONE soldier and used the same stats for every one of them, then started to throw arbitrary things in his way he managed to over come because as said, he knows what he can do better than his GM.

She didnt think he would survive the first few rooms, she probobly wanted to kill him and be able to say "oh well he had a chance..."

[absolmorph]

Even if he ran away from them that still beats the encounters, nothing says you have to kill each one to get the XP. He is entitled to as much to get him to the next level and then put him 1 xp below the next level according the to the DMG
That's only if you consider all the fights a single encounter.

Tharck, Glitterdust is always a good battlefield control spell, from when you get it to level 20. As is Web (especially in enclosed spaces).

[Tharck]

That's only if you consider all the fights a single encounter.

Tharck, Glitterdust is always a good battlefield control spell, from when you get it to level 20. As is Web (especially in enclosed spaces).

I hear you. I agree it's wonderful. Just knock, glitterdust x2, shatter x2, and web as the 2nd level choices arnt bad. Just understand there are a lot of good level 2 spells. 2 Walls of Stone and Imp Invis.

I'm sorry just way too many right spells for the occastion to be believable.

[absolmorph]

I hear you. I agree it's wonderful. Just knock, glitterdust x2, shatter x2, and web as the 2nd level choices arnt bad. Just understand there are a lot of good level 2 spells. 2 Walls of Stone and Imp Invis.

I'm sorry just way too many right spells for the occastion to be believable.
Aside from shatter (that's slightly less so), those are always the right spells for the situation (as a Batman wizard).

[Tharck]

Oh and the XP chart is slightly wrong on what he would gain since he is ECL 14 (half dragon - gold) and 10th lvl Wizard.

And again, I hear you but Batman wizard tends to try to have the right spell for the occastion. There's too many multiples when it was too needed.

I'm sorry but I believe (and this is my own opinion judging from the little I know) that he either embelished his story on here, embelished his spells in play, or both. Likely because he feels the DM is trying to kill him and more or less cheats in an attempt to do so.

Just from what we've read he immediately drops two walls of stone (4th, 4th), Greater Invis (4th), Shatter on the lock (He has knock memmed too so odd choice) ect.

[kyoryu]

Sounds more like the DM wanted to railroad you but didn't know how to deal with the encounter effectively than a concerted attempt to kill you.

Now, trying to break out of a prison will generally get the guards in a more-or-less-fatal mode of thinking, so it's not unreasonable that they'd do that. But really - someone building an anti-wizard prison should have enough knowledge to come up with effective counters to common second-level spells.

[Tharck]

Couple other things annoy me too. And nothing notes the obvious mistakes the DM makes. Like moving through occupied friendly spaces so web schmeb if the people behind him made their saves. Also one is a wizard BBEG who casts glitterdust to get him out of invis, sigh. Why not just Disintigrate, PWS, PWB ect if she is just making stuff on the fly to get past. Well whatever maybe she is really horrible.

How is the place lit? Torches on the walls, people walking with candles? If so web wont catch well, it will burn. They put him in a cell and didnt take his components?

How did he know he couldn't teleport? Did he try and the spell was wasted, or did the DM allow him to keep it when she revealed he couldnt? If so 2 Teleports and a Dominate Person memmed? Any hostile spells at all, or just stuff for escaping a dungeon?

He also counters a dispel from another wizard with 8 fighters in the room. So he runs in and... waits to counterspell?

and lastly we only know the portion written there could be a lot more.

[Valameer]

Wow. Here's my take, FWIW:

This is probably one of those things that was frustrating as hell to go through, but you might look back at it and laugh. You just thwarted like 60 guys, all just as powerful as you. There's no better way to give a big F-U to the BBEG.

This had to be incredibly damaging to your sense of versimilitude, above all else. How conveniently tailor-made the whole prison seemed to keeping you in. I would be fuming after something like this. It seems like, while the DM wasn't saying "absolutely NO," she WAS trying to do everything in her power to trip you up. And she wasn't very good at it.

It sounds more like a battle of "I escape!" "Nuh-uh!" "Uh-huh!" than a well thought out encounter. She let you go eventually, because she wouldn't kill you, and you wouldn't take no for an answer. Since she wasn't going to kill you, she had to let you walk. It was more a willpower thing of DM vs. Player than anything.

She didn't have the escape prepared. She wanted you to talk to the BBEG, and he would make you a deal, and then try to play you against the rest of the party. THAT'S what she had planned. She thought her dimensional-lockdown would be enough to prevent you from escaping. I don't think she expected you to try so hard.

If you can somehow mend your damaged sense of versimilitude, you might be able to keep going. Flaunt how you escaped right out from under the nose of some of the most powerful forces in the nation.

She obviously struggles on the mechanics-side of DMing. While her plots may be good, and the world fleshed out, you'll have to accept that combat-scenarios may come off as clunky and hamfisted. That's pretty much what happened here.

What I would do? She won't stop you from polymorph cheese. You know the rules better. She probably assumes the rules are more-or-less balanced. But it will damage or wreck her campaign if you all-of-a-sudden go super-nova in power. Think about the other players, who may enjoy the political or plot aspects of the game. Your current character concept (vigilante taking down the government) already sounds like you're lashing out a little at the general theme of the game. You have every right to be bored - but maybe you could retire this character (give him to the DM as an even more extreme NPC vigilante leader) and make a new character that fits the theme of the campaign more.

A prince (boon) from another nation, come to exploit weaknesses in the current setting (under the guise of diplomacy). Or someone secretly aligned with (not necessarily working for) the BBEG. I'm pretty sure that's the angle she had planned out anyway, so maybe she could still salvage those plans. Power game your manipulation skills and spells, instead of combat utility ones. The DM would probably be able to work with it a lot more coherently.

Anyway. Maybe it won't be fun anymore, given that you've seen the huge flaws in the game up close now - and felt that sense of immersion totally shatter. But if you still need to play in a game and this one is the only option, you might as well try to enjoy it while everyone else still does.

Best of luck to you, at any rate. I've been frustrated like that in some bad sessions before, and I know it makes you just want to get up and walk away.

[Starbuck_II]

I must say I loved this in general even with teleport-immunity. You bested a group of Wizards ands ninjaed your way to safety.

[cfalcon]

If your DM was trying to kill you, he would have purposefully "passed" some clutch saves.

Your character may have in fact been in a situation that you weren't supposed to get out of. Your escape sounds like mad skill.

I would try to figure out a way to learn if you are walking into a no-teleport zone. An enemy caster throwing down some dimensional hoo-hoo at the last second is one thing, but if your DM is going to houserule a whole building warded against teleport (something I routinely do in my games, and so does my friend who also runs), then it should be obvious to an entering arcanist, both physically and aetherically, that you can't get to the astral plane from there. Ask your DM if a permanent Arcane Sight or even Detect Magic would work for alerting you to such things. It's very rude to turn off class defining features with no warning.

Again, if he really wanted to kill you, the holding cell would be anti-magic.

[Xefas]

Instead of trying to "Beat her at D&D" by tricking out your character, or just leaving and never returning, or secretly attempting to get her replaced by another player as the DM, why not just talk to her?

Sit down, alone, get both of you a drink, and be frank. "This last game was really stressful to me. I didn't have a lot of fun, and the whole mood seemed antagonistic. I didn't want to make a scene at the time, so I kept going. But, honestly, I think we need to vent whatever problems are going on and reach some sort of mature compromise on the issue that's fair to both of us."

[Eldariel]

It sounds like:
- It was a prison appropriate for a fantasy world. Any place that is not dimensionally warded is completely useless for any slightly relevant captives (though the lock being Shatterable and there being no hounds or anything with scent to sniff out Invisibles is just inexcusable).
- She (your DM) did not cheat and played your opponents appropriately. Sounds like an awesome, nailbiting escape.
- You are an average prepared Wizard; doing the impossible is your bread and butter. Good job.

Yeah, if you're not enjoying the game, go ahead and quit but I sure as hell would not after an epic session like that. And I can't, for the life of me, imagine how you could not enjoy 6 hours of straight combat! But yeah, if DM style and playstyle are not compatible, meh. Things won't work out. As always, step 1 = talking, step 2 = compromising, step 3 = having a participant quit the group if neither works.

[BeholderSlayer]

It sounds like:
- It was a prison appropriate for a fantasy world. Any place that is not dimensionally warded is completely useless for any slightly relevant captives (though the lock being Shatterable and there being no hounds or anything with scent to sniff out Invisibles is just inexcusable).
- She (your DM) did not cheat and played your opponents appropriately. Sounds like an awesome, nailbiting escape.
- You are an average prepared Wizard; doing the impossible is your bread and butter. Good job.

Yeah, if you're not enjoying the game, go ahead and quit but I sure as hell would not after an epic session like that. And I can't, for the life of me, imagine how you could not enjoy 6 hours of straight combat! But yeah, if DM style and playstyle are not compatible, meh. Things won't work out. As always, step 1 = talking, step 2 = compromising, step 3 = having a participant quit the group if neither works.

I feel the same way, I think this experience would have been awesome.

The meta-gamey part with the fire and cold and magic missiles would annoy me (a little bit), but I wouldn't care in the long run if I lived.

[soulchicken]

Instead of trying to "Beat her at D&D" by tricking out your character, or just leaving and never returning, or secretly attempting to get her replaced by another player as the DM, why not just talk to her?

Sit down, alone, get both of you a drink, and be frank. "This last game was really stressful to me. I didn't have a lot of fun, and the whole mood seemed antagonistic. I didn't want to make a scene at the time, so I kept going. But, honestly, I think we need to vent whatever problems are going on and reach some sort of mature compromise on the issue that's fair to both of us."

Bingo!

I've had problems with my DM(s) more than once before. I've also had players who had problems with me. You can't expect her to be a better DM when you don't talk to her about your concerns.

Polymorphing into a golden dragon to smash her campaign apart is childish.

She threw a lot of stuff at you, and if it were me in that situation, I would have had a blast getting through all that.

Ask yourself this: what if she put in a dungeon that you could teleport out of? Or what if she put in that prison where the guards were not trying to kill you? That would have been lame, and not worth any sort of story.
Ex.
"I got captured by my dm, but I just teleported out." Who cares? You're a 10th level wizard; you should be ashamed if you didn't teleport out.
"The guards didn't even try to do anything when I escaped." And?

[absolmorph]

I'm not clear about how the subject of attempting to "beat" the DM at DnD came up.
Suggesting the OP's super-genius character having a contingency or 8 for when things are going bad (like, y'know, being able to change into a dragon if his squishy wizard is surrounded by enemies) is not attempting to "beat" the DM. It's the character using their knowledge to avoid getting killed.
An "OH CRAP" button is not campaign breaking.

[jiriku]

FWIW, I've found that the polymorph line can be great buff spells for correcting party imbalances. I once partied with one of those annoying players who never learns the rules and always whines about how ineffective her character is. I wrote up a stat block for her rogue's stats while polymorphed into a 12-headed pyrohydra, turned her into said hydra, and told her to go to town. With 12 sneak attacks per round as a standard action, her rogue was suddenly a star player on the team. She was so happy she practically wet herself.

[137beth]

@absolmorph - I agree with your analysis of the technical questions of the spell. However, M-Bark has a point...

@M-Bark Like I said, you have a point.. The problem I'm running into, though, is I feel like I haven't really actually been enjoying the game much for a while now, and pretty much only continuing to play because the GM and the players are all good friends of mine. I mean, the GM and I were roommates for a year... but.. sadly, it's becoming more and more obvious that she's really not (and it kind of pains me to say/admit this) very good at GMing. It's been over 2 years now, and she still barely knows even the core rules of D&D. She freely changes the way spells work and whatnot, with no prior warning, just to fit the plot ideas that she's got (For example: A guard we ran into had a gibbled leg from being kneecapped by a Kobold. The Cleric of the party says she'll cast "Heal" on him to fix his leg. The GM says, no, she can't do that. "You can't fix all the worlds problems." What. I don't even.)... It just very frequently feels like she's running the game so she can tell her story, instead of running it so that everyone can have fun, and unfortunately for her, there's these pesky player characters running around messing up her plot. [ /rant]



You could ask the other players if they feel the same way. If so, another player could GM, and your current GM could become a player.

[ZeroNumerous]

The only comment I have is directed toward your plan to become a dragon. Specifically, turning into a dragon, snake or other large scaled beast never works (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScaledUp).

[DragonSinged]

Whew, there's a lot more replies than I was expecting. That is totally cool. :smallbiggrin:

However, it does mean it might take me a bit to respond to everyone. All this input is awesome, though.

Alright, well first, here's something I didn't really expect - someone who thinks I made it up!

@Tharck - I can see where you're coming from with the whole, "This is crazy that he had these spells memorized." And you're not entirely wrong.
I was half expecting to have to escape from this place when I went into it in the first place, so I did prepare a bunch of spells to escape from the place.. however, I made some mistakes, too. As I'd said in the previous thread, this is my first time playing a wizard, and I didn't know how all the spells worked. As a result, I had actually memorized 2 "Transmute Rock to Mud"s, thinking I could just melt my way through the ceilings to escape if I had to..... then, time came to do just that, looked at the spell once more to make sure it would work, noticed "...can't affect worked stone..." Well. Fan-freaking-tastic, there go 2 of my highest level spell slot. HOWEVER, most of my characters wealth had gone into his collection of scrolls. I had a few walls of stone, a few glitterdusts, more than a few solid fogs (my favorite spell so far), and about 5 shatters? I had shatter memorized once, but I had a bunch on scrolls, because it seemed like one of those, "You won't need it most days, but when you do need it, you really need it." This encounter burned through most of those scrolls (thus, also, most of my character's wealth.)
Let's see, what other problems did you have? Oh, him still having his components/possessions. When the guards came to take him to the cell, he went with them freely, explaining that he hadn't harmed their boss, just put a wall between them because he had felt threatened, and he would be willing to go with them to the cell. They were like, "Uh, ok.." and took him. Up until that point, as far as they knew, he had been a guest. I guess you could argue that they should have taken his things? Maybe, maybe not, but either way they didn't.
Also, re: web, and torches on the walls, or how is this place lit: Honestly, we had a lot to deal with, the both of us. She had all the NPC's to control, and the layout of the building to keep track of, and whatever else, and I was just constantly wracking my brain going, "oh god what am I gonna do what am I gonna do", so I guess neither of us thought to question the lighting. That seems like kind of a weak complaint to me, though, but.. whatever, that's how it was. I guess maybe I was cheating because I didn't think, "Oh hey, how is this place illuminated"?

Well, whatever. I played my character as I had him on my character sheets.


Ok, next, there's a few people saying either I should or should not receive 180,000+ XP's. Personally, I think that is waaay, waaay overboard. I mean, ha ha sweet, ultimate cosmic power, I win now, but on the other hand, like I said before, I've been playing this character to the best of my ability in such a way as to let the other players have fun. I don't suddenly want to be all, "I now have the power to fix everything by myself without you guys. Sorry."
I do, however, fully expect to at the very least 1 XP off of level 12. I wouldn't complain at ending up firmly lodged in level 13, either. Anything beyond that is probably overkill, though, for the previously mentioned reasons.

Also, re: people saying, "Dude, don't go smashing the game as big ole dragon, that's weaksauce."



I would like to point out that (in case it was unclear) the Poly any Object comments were intended as jest. My character has never cast any sort of polymorph spell or anything like that. He's designed to control battles so that the rest of the party feels like they're the ones winning all the battles.. he's never even bothered to learn so much as 'Alter Self' (though as I understand it, that spell, broken as it already is, would be even more ridiculous for a half-dragon to cast. :smalleek: )

What I'm getting at is, yes, I know that would be childish or whatever. I was kidding, I don't actually intend to abuse the spell. It's tempting, and it's fun to think about, but I wouldn't actually do that, the same way I wouldn't use explosive runes bombs, or wish loops, or whatever other shenanigans.

@caden_varn, Xefas, & Eldariel - You guys are right, it is time for a(nother) talk.

@Eldariel - You're right, it does sound appropriate for a prison in a magical world - problem is, I went into a military intelligence building, not a prison. >.<

@Lyceios - I agree about the whole "Having done this is about the best way to flip off the BBEG" thing. I don't think I'm going to be rolling a new character, though. If this one goes, I'm probably done with the game, unfortunately. :smallfrown: Well, I mean we'll see how things go. Hopefully she'll get that something was wrong here, and will improve as a GM as a result.

@FelixG - "She didnt think he would survive the first few rooms, she probobly wanted to kill him and be able to say "oh well he had a chance...""
I... yeah, when I think about the session too much, I end up coming to this conclusion... but at the same time, I don't want to believe that this is actually the case, especially because I hadn't done anything to draw that kind of ire from the GM up to that point... Although she might be somewhat peeved at his crazy-high knowledge skills. Dunno.

@the fans of "You can't solve all the worlds problems." It does seem like a pretty handy phrase to throw out there whenever you just don't want to have to deal with something, no? Let me tell you, though, being on the receiving end of it kind of sucks. You can't solve all the worlds problems in real life... that's why you play D&D - so that you can. (Unless it's an evil campaign... :smallcool: )

@Psyx - Re: " I'd rather have a good storyteller who waved a magic wand sometimes and said 'no', than a bookish GM who lacked good campaign material."
The problem here is that D&D is very largely about the rules. If you'd rather have a good storyteller than someone rules-savvy, there are other systems for that. Granted, I haven't played many of them, only been told about them, but... *shrug.* Maybe I'm not making the strongest point here. What I'm getting at is that if you're GMing D&D, you sort of need to know at the very least, the rules from the core books. This is especially true if you're running a mid- to high-level game. Being told, "Yeah, heal won't work because it won't." or "Oh, yeah in this world resurrection spells are unreliable, don't always work, and don't work on children." or whatever else... This is my opinion, but.. that's totally fine if that's established before the game starts, before people choose their classes or whatever. But pulling that out of nowhere in the middle of a session... that's not cool.

@AtwasAwamps - Yes, I am totally adopting you as my first ever forum-rant-brother.

@ZeroNumerous - That made me laugh. I appreciate it. :smallbiggrin:


Alright, that's all the replies I can muster for now. If I missed you, I apologize. If you disagree with something I've said, please try to keep in mind that this whole thing has me a little defensive, I'm not trying to offend anyone, and anything I've said is my opinion, I am not trying to establish it as fact. = P
And thanks again for the contributions!

[Kylarra]

I'm really confused as to why they let you keep so many scrolls on you. Did you waylay some sort of holding area on your way out?

[DragonSinged]

@Kylarra - Again, I was originally just there submitting a report, and I guess they forgot to check the contents of my Handy Haversack? Even when I was initially put into the cell, I wasn't really a prisoner/recognized threat until after the BBEG walked into the room and recognized me.

[Chrono22]

Well, hopefully her GMing will improve. That said, there's really nothing wrong with having killer combats. My characters routinely have to handle encounters many levels above their CR in unfavorable circumstances. The sense of risk, and the hopelessness of the scenarios makes victory that much more poignant. Being a fantasy hero is about overcoming impossible odds, after all.

[Jack_Simth]

Ok, next, there's a few people saying either I should or should not receive 180,000+ XP's. Personally, I think that is waaay, waaay overboard. I mean, ha ha sweet, ultimate cosmic power, I win now, but on the other hand, like I said before, I've been playing this character to the best of my ability in such a way as to let the other players have fun. I don't suddenly want to be all, "I now have the power to fix everything by myself without you guys. Sorry."
I do, however, fully expect to at the very least 1 XP off of level 12. I wouldn't complain at ending up firmly lodged in level 13, either. Anything beyond that is probably overkill, though, for the previously mentioned reasons.Believe it or not, there's an official rule in the Core books that says you can't level twice in one go - you can immediately start crafting away the excess, or you can immediately use eXPensive spells to get rid of the excess, but anything above (+2 levels, -1 XP) is explicitly wasted. I can never find it when I'm looking for it, though.....

[DragonSinged]

@Jack_Simth Yeah, I mentioned that earlier, it's on page 58 of the PHb. Like I said, if that came up I would be tempted to argue that the "single adventure" that the PHb mentions isn't taking a 6 hour combat into account, but again, I'll either end up 1 xp off of level 12, or.. not. We'll see, and I'll make sure to let you guys know when I find out. :smallwink:

EDIT: Although, I don't remember any rules about being able to use all the extra XP that you don't level up with for crafting or anything, so if there is a rule that says that, I haven't heard of it.

[9mm]

@Eldariel - You're right, it does sound appropriate for a prison in a magical world - problem is, I went into a military intelligence building, not a prison. >.<


Take it from someone who has worked in buildings where confidential material can be accessed: there is very little difference between them and a prison, mostly cause the they both want to keep things inside.

[Jornophelanthas]

Wow. Here's my take, FWIW:
She didn't have the escape prepared. She wanted you to talk to the BBEG, and he would make you a deal, and then try to play you against the rest of the party. THAT'S what she had planned. She thought her dimensional-lockdown would be enough to prevent you from escaping. I don't think she expected you to try so hard.


I agree very much with the above. I believe this is your DM's side of the story (which she probably will never tell you under normal circumstances, due to it containing spoilers to her campaign).

Is it poor writing/storytelling? Maybe, if you say she's telling a pre-written story without taking into account that the players may interfere. And interfere you did. Perhaps the DM is even mad at you for not playing along with her plot idea.

So it's likely she needs to up her game, especially if she wants to keep you interested, but you also need to compromise if you want to remain a part of it. It sounds to me like the DM is doing her best all the time, and it's somewhat unfair to blame her for not DM-ing up to your (high) standards.

As many already agree, a long, civilized talk is in order. Make sure that both of you share your concerns about the situation.

[DragonSinged]

@9mm - You could be right? I guess the defenses just went way over what I was expecting. Perhaps my expectations were wrong, though... Well, I mean, clearly they were, but... Yeah.

@Jornophelanthas - It does seem like she gets frustrated with, not just me, but the whole group sometimes, for not playing along with her plot ideas. I've seen that as a problem fairly frequently with some GM's, the whole... putting a lot of effort into planning, say, a particular area, that the players then decide to bypass entirely - and yeah, that sucks, but you need to be able to roll with it. Adapt all that planning to be somewhere else, or save it in case they go back there, or whatever. The players can't read your mind, though, so no sense taking it out on them.
Also, do I have high standards for a GM to meet? I might, I guess I hadn't really thought about it before, it's possible... I do know that I'm not the only one getting frustrated with her game, though. I've talked to both my lady (the cleric) and the GM's boyfriend (a duskblade), and both of them have expressed frustration as well. :smallfrown:
I mean, I talked to the GM first, but it's probably been a good half a year at least since the last time I really tried, so, yeah. That.

[true_shinken]

The only problem would be if the total CR would put them at a too-high CR for him to get XP from.

CR is per creature, EL is per encounter.
Meaning, an encounter with a very high encounter level does not mean you don't get experience, it only happens when a single creature has too high a CR.

[DragonSinged]

I hope this isn't thread necromancy (not really sure if there's official rules for that, I couldn't find a definition), but this is just an update for anyone who was interested. Got my XP "reward" from the GM today (finally).
Drumroll please...

8520 xp.


What.


I don't even.

[Brendan]

oy. that is just unbelievably little. did she explain why you got just about one encounter's worth? because if you didn't have cause for a serious discussion beforehand, you do now.

[BeholderSlayer]

You got boned, mate.

[The Glyphstone]

Wow, holy epic railroading story Batman, and...a total letdown on the XP award. Why so little?

[Tvtyrant]

First, I have to say you did an incredible job getting out at all. Your tactics would have done TM proud!

Second, I would suggest you quit. You shouldn't have to put up with being bullied that way. Don't threaten to quit, don't tell her why your quitting (unless she asks) just quit and get out knowing you did the best you could. If you have talked to her about this in the past and she hasn't budged then she will know why your quitting anyway.

[The Glyphstone]

First, I have to say you did an incredible job getting out at all. Your tactics would have done TM proud!

Second, I would suggest you quit. You shouldn't have to put up with being bullied that way. Don't threaten to quit, don't tell her why your quitting (unless she asks) just quit and get out knowing you did the best you could. If you have talked to her about this in the past and she hasn't budged then she will know why your quitting anyway.

Sounds like the best option, sadly. I can't see this getting any better.

[Seerow]

I hope this isn't thread necromancy (not really sure if there's official rules for that, I couldn't find a definition), but this is just an update for anyone who was interested. Got my XP "reward" from the GM today (finally).
Drumroll please...

8520 xp.


What.


I don't even.

Ask her where the other 171,000 went.

[Volos]

...you seem upset about all of this, but from the way you describe it all it seems like you had fun in the end. Or atleast you were seriously worried about dying, which I amount to fun. When was the last time you had to fight that hard for anything in a D&D game? I wish I had a DM who was as harsh as yours! It would make everything alot more worthwhile in the end.

[DragonSinged]

Thanks for the replies.

@Brendan & The Glyphstone - The only explanation for getting so little (less than a single CR 13 monster), she said that everyone that I came up against, while technically level 10 or above, weren't all min-maxed (not a direct quote, she said they were essentially nerfed? Or something?) Anyways, that's why I got so little. Yeah, because 3 10th level wizards casting scorching ray to the face.. egh, nevermind.

@Tvtyrant - 1st point, thank you very much, appreciate the praise. 2nd point - Yeah. I think I just might. I'm honestly (at the moment, at least) not even super angry or anything, just.. lacking any emotion or attachment to the game right now. Before this, I felt attachment to my character. Now.. dunno. Meh.

@Seerow - I honestly wasn't expecting to get anywhere near that much, but I was kind of expecting to at least gain like.. 2 levels worth of XP. Something like that.

@Volos - If it came across that I had fun during this whole thing, I apologize for misinforming. It might have been somewhat fun if it weren't for the whole "Feeling like I was getting shafted for no apparent reason" and "Feeling of hostility from the GM" thing. Might have been.

[absolmorph]

So, they're just like enemies from the Monster Manual, which aren't expected to be played as smart as they are?
I mean, take a Young Adult Brass Dragon. 14 Int and spells of a 5th level Sorcerer. CR 10. Against an unoptimized party, it's 200 foot fly speed, 80 foot long line of 5d6 fire and 40 foot cone of sleeping will basically just wreck them. Assuming it's played to it's 14 Int.

Oh, and each level 10 of [class] is meant to be mildly dangerous to a group of 4 level 10 characters. You were, essentially, a CR 10 encounter that came out and ripped through a BUNCH of level 10 parties. Without stopping.
Oh, wait. Half-Dragon, right? That's CR 15, I think. On the other hand, 30 CR 10 enemies are just about a EL 15 encounter. And that was just one encounter, which should have given you... 7,800 experience, by the DMG guidelines.

Your DM needs a serious talk about proper rewards.

[Seerow]

@Absolmorph- half dragon's only +3, not +5, I believe, so that should bump up the exp you figured a fair bit.


Then consider as his boon, according to the OP, he got the template without level adjustment. So I'm not even sure that should be factored into his EL for exp purposes here. (Not sure how that works really)


@Seerow - I honestly wasn't expecting to get anywhere near that much, but I was kind of expecting to at least gain like.. 2 levels worth of XP. Something like that.


Yeah I know. But when you go to the DM with an outrageous demand like "I should get 22x more exp than what you just gave me, on top of what you just gave me", explain how it was figured that you should get that much, and then proceed negotiating, it's much more likely to get you somewhere in the middle (such as what you are shooting for) than just rolling with it or asking for more.

Remember, in negotiations, your first offer should -always- be extortion.

[absolmorph]

Seerow, Half-Dragon give +3 LA and a +2 to CR.
And I was calculating from ECL 13 because how little XP DragonSinged got barely covered 1 fight in the battle when calculated without taking the boon into account.
The XP they gave was that low (for the circumstances, of course).

[DragonSinged]

As an update, I talked to her tonight about the whole thing, mainly just to see what she'd say. I didn't tell her I was still thinking about quitting the game, because I didn't really want that influencing what she had to say.

Anyways, I basically pointed out that defeating a single CR 13 monster would net me more XP than she gave me, and what the $@#%.
She said that her reason was that all the dudes I ran into were fairly nerfed. I said, a level 10 wizard casting scorching ray is a level 10 wizard casting scorching ray.
She said, well, they all had zero feats. I said I got hit with a maximized magic missile, they had feats. She said, ok, they had feats.
She said, well, you had that cube of force. I said, do you give a paladin with a +2 sword less XP than a paladin with a +1 sword? Besides which, that cube is pretty much my only possession of any value, aside from headband of int +4 and my scrolls, which I burned through on the encounter, thus putting my loot gain for this encounter well into the negatives.

I said (thanks to you guys!) that, assuming everyone I encountered was level 10, no one was any higher or lower (bearing in mind there was at least one level 14 guy), and not adding any modifiers for the magic building where I couldn't summon any monsters, teleport, or even cast blink, that had magic knock-proof doors, that by the books I should be getting enough XP to put me roughly near level 21. I said I didn't by any means want that, not in any way shape or form, but by the book, that's what I earned.

Eventually she said, well, ok, how about, whoever is the highest level in the party, you match their level. I said, Honestly, it's not that I wanted tons of XP, I really didn't, it's just that the sum you gave me was insulting. I'll go one level lower than the highest in the party (putting me at 12.)

So, long story short, she compromised, after fighting tooth and nail. But.. she compromised, so that's something. There is hope? We'll see how the next few sessions roll, whether I decide to continue.

[Tvtyrant]

Beware of falling rocks my friend. They often follow after getting what you want out of the DM. But I'm glad she was willing to compromise; your character sounds awesome.

[Killer Angel]

I hope this isn't thread necromancy (not really sure if there's official rules for that, I couldn't find a definition)

Here you are (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?a=1). The limit is six weeks.


Drumroll please...

8520 xp.


:smalleek:
What the...

Sadly, I'm with Tvtyrant. What a bitter end... better to leave, before it goes even worst. :smallsigh:

[FelixG]

be prepared to teleport back to that dungeon with level 15 people this time :P

Your GM seems like she was hit a few too many times in the head with the shovel.

If one of my GMs had pulled this kind of thing I would have beaten them down with their own books.

[Crossblade]

I still want to know the "WHY" the GM wanted the OP dead. OP said himself that DM intended the OP to either be killed or turned NPC via the metal-eye thing.

Kudos to DragonSinged for being the bigger person during the negotiations and choosing 1 level lower than what the DM offered (equal to highest party member in level).

[Angelmaker]

Kudos to DragonSinged for being the bigger person during the negotiations and choosing 1 level lower than what the DM offered (equal to highest party member in level).Which just means he´s effectively one or two level higher than the other´s, because of his +3 LA half-dragon that doesn´t get counted.

Seriously, if I would have gotten a note, that after a single solo session suddenly one of my team members is 2 levels higher than me, I´d be pretty pissed? What did he do? Guilted the DM into giving him XP like crazy? Or did the DM screwed up? So instead of correcting the errors I now have to live with an insanely ( wizard ) strong ( high level ) party member whom I will never be able to match up to? Geee thanks.

I don´t argue that you didn´t deserve it - I don´t argue here that she didn´t screw up. After all, you talked and you found a solution, but please... common - what will your party members have to say to this? Seriously - from THEIR view it will be as follows: Your DM screwed up and created an unbeatable scenario, which you beat by DM fiat ( saving throw bonusses maybe a little too low? Why didnt the guys from the cell come after you? At some point in time they are bound to be following you. ) thus giving you a big progression in levels. ( ok, you got no treasure. So what? A wizard without magic equipment is still more powerful than a warrior will ever be with any kind of magic equipment he like by WBL. )

If your party is cool with that: Fine by me, but really - it kind of IS screwed up.



I still want to know the "WHY" the GM wanted the OP dead. OP said himself that DM intended the OP to either be killed or turned NPC via the metal-eye thing.

This is by far more interesting. Really, you talked about the formalities of what happened. But IS there a deeper issue you should know about? Why don´t you turn the stick around? Why not ask her if there is ANYTHING you can do to actually HELP her campaign? Further her goals by a little of metagaming your wizard into doing something, that furthers her story? The answers to these question may already give you insight what it is your DM may resent about your wizard.

More interesting than wether you got 8K or 800K XP. :smallyuk:

[Tiki Snakes]

It really does just seem like the DM isn't that up on the mechanical and numerical side of things. She's fine with you being rewarded for surviving, but has no real idea of how difficult it actually was, or what it was really worth. She's more focused on the narrative side.

So, given that she did indeed compromise, I'd say it's worth sticking around. Yeah, I'll echo the above, feel free to suggest you are willing to help out if she needs any help and otherwise just see how it goes. If all else fails, consider it something of an Iron-Man Challenge.

She's shown she can compromise, and that she won't go as far as 'Rocks Fall', so really you should consider there to be good signs. Perhaps life will be easier if, within reason, you made sure that your goals intersect with the story she wants to tell, where possible (and without compromising your concept of your character)

[BeholderSlayer]

I would hope that the thread necromancy forum rules don't apply to an OP that is updating a thread based on new information, especially in this kind of situation. At least, I hope so.

[absolmorph]

As an update, I talked to her tonight about the whole thing, mainly just to see what she'd say. I didn't tell her I was still thinking about quitting the game, because I didn't really want that influencing what she had to say.
...

I said (thanks to you guys!) that, assuming everyone I encountered was level 10, no one was any higher or lower (bearing in mind there was at least one level 14 guy), and not adding any modifiers for the magic building where I couldn't summon any monsters, teleport, or even cast blink, that had magic knock-proof doors, that by the books I should be getting enough XP to put me roughly near level 21. I said I didn't by any means want that, not in any way shape or form, but by the book, that's what I earned.

Eventually she said, well, ok, how about, whoever is the highest level in the party, you match their level. I said, Honestly, it's not that I wanted tons of XP, I really didn't, it's just that the sum you gave me was insulting. I'll go one level lower than the highest in the party (putting me at 12.)

So, long story short, she compromised, after fighting tooth and nail. But.. she compromised, so that's something. There is hope? We'll see how the next few sessions roll, whether I decide to continue.
Good call, and I'm glad your DM was willing to compromise. From the additional details you've given, it seems like she just has a bit of trouble with awarding XP.


I would hope that the thread necromancy forum rules don't apply to an OP that is updating a thread based on new information, especially in this kind of situation. At least, I hope so.
Glyphstone (a mod) posted, so I can only assume it's fine.

Angelmaker: The OP didn't guilt the DM into giving them a bunch of experience. They pointed out that the DM gave them a really weak reward for something that was completely ****ing crazy that the DM didn't expect to work. And the DM fiat was mostly working against DragonSinged; doors that each have a different password? Every mage knowing DragonSinged's wizard is immune to fire after the first attack? A building-wide Dimensional Lock effect?
Also, this is a Batman-type wizard. They stop the enemies and make some tea as their party kills the enemies.

[The Glyphstone]

I would hope that the thread necromancy forum rules don't apply to an OP that is updating a thread based on new information, especially in this kind of situation. At least, I hope so.

They would and do apply, yes, but he hadn't exceeded the 6-week limit (still a week or so to go), so it's all okay.

[Crossblade]

Seriously, if I would have gotten a note, that after a single solo session suddenly one of my team members is 2 levels higher than me, I´d be pretty pissed? What did he do? Guilted the DM into giving him XP like crazy? Or did the DM screwed up? So instead of correcting the errors I now have to live with an insanely ( wizard ) strong ( high level ) party member whom I will never be able to match up to? Geee thanks.

I have to point out as well, it was said that all the PCs get either a fluff or mechanical "boon". The OP's boon was "have the half dragon template without the LA, just be 3 levels below the rest of the party".... which is exactly how LA works. Level + LA = ECL. So the OP's 'boon' was that he gets +3 levels at the cost of -3 levels,
aka NOTHING.

And why? Because by the looks of it, apparently nobody understood how LA works properly. So now, the wizard comes back, after almost being DM fiat killed, and the boon he didn't get is now "2/3rds of the way working"... seems a little more fair.
What? More powerful wizard fair? What is a wizards important stats? Int, Dex... maybe Con. What is a its dump stat? Str. What is a half dragon's stat boosts? Str +8, Con/Int/Cha +2. Ouuuu, +3 LA for two +2 stat bonuses (ok, and immunity fire).
Pathfinder's, a system that is much more balance that 3.5 (granted, not perfect though, but we won't get into that) Half Dragon has a +2 LA... and all the same abilities, except no wings. Wings are a huge boost too, and DragonSinged (presumably) doesn't have them.

So basically now, DragonSinged almost has the PF's Half Dragon template (the exact same template as 3.5) for free, which is was promised upon character creation, but didn't get... and never would half, because no one understood LA this whole time.
I'll also point out that he said he would let the party do the killing, so that they felt they were winning. Sounds very team player to me. Team players deserve a little extra bonus, imo. Not everyone likes playing healbot for Mr 'I jump into t3h monster's teeth on purpose'.

Final Note: DragonSinged, ya, take note of that. Level Adjustment (LA) is added to Character Level to equal Effective Character Level (ECL). You were 3 levels below everyone else (level 10), so the party's ECL was 13. You were 10(level)+3(LA)=13 ECL.

I would not only point this out to your DM, but also the rest of your group. If anyone else is a half race or monster race, their ECL may go up a few levels also.... and you didn't really get your boon for the ENTIRE span of your character's creation. You may want to try to find a compromise to get a "new" one (aka one at all), I would do this with the entire group present and have them aid you in picking a boon, so that it won't make you even more over powered than the rest of them, because it does seem you are aware how powerful wizards can be.
Granted you could say your boon is now being 2 levels above the highest party member,
Highest party member level - 1 = Your level.
Your level + 3 LA = you 2 ECL above highest party member.... if that person doesn't have a screwed up ECL from LA.

...but then that would mean your 6 hours was without ANY reward at all.

So that's my... um... 23 cents, by the looks of it.

EDIT: I also want to point out the immunity thing that people keep debating. Remember: Half dragon. Go look up the entry in the Monster Manual. Look at the picture. That's a half black dragon. Want more? Go look in Unearthed Arcana. Look up Half-Dragon Paragon, look at its picture (its between a Tiefling and Drow paragon, its a Blue Half Dragon. Now go find a mirror. Do either look anything like you? (If they do, daaaaaamn, you ugly) Are you going to confuse that with a regular person? It should be obvious to anyone that see's DragonSinged's character that he is part gold dragon, and thus immune to fire and weak to cold.

[Seerow]

Correct me if I'm wrong, because I am admittedly very rusty, but doesn't LA apply to your effective level for experience to next level purposes?

ie a level 10 character with 3 LA would need as much exp to gain level 11 as a non-LA character would take to get to level 14?

I figured the boon was him not having to count the LA towards his ECL for experience purposes, so he'd gain more exp from the encounters (at the start being a level 1 character facing level 4 encounters, or whatever the equivalent for what they started at), and leveling faster than the other characters. ie he would gain that first level to level 5 at the exp he would normally need to get to level 2, while the rest of the party would need the exp going from level 4 to 5. Add on top of that the bonus exp from being a lower level character against higher EL encounters, he would catch up to the party's level in relatively short order.


If I'm wrong and what I described is how LA works by default, rather than how LA would work with the LA removed, then by all means, yeah he got screwed out of a boon in a pretty major way. But my initial reading of it made me think it was fair. That said I didn't realize at this point in the campaign there were still people 3 levels ahead of him.

[Crossblade]

Seerow:
Yes, that is how LA works, because effectively the level 10 character going to 11 IS a level 13 character going to 14 because of ECL (effective character level).

Now your point of view for experience does make sense... however not that STILL, DragonSinged was, by the sounds of it, one of the if not THE lowest level character in the party (before LA, which was supposed to be dismissed as per boon, but didn't happen). So there were still, by the sounds of it, a couple people higher in level than DragonSinged... it would help to know the party's levels... or even (new) ECL.

Side note: incase it was missed by people, I also edited my last post, and commented on the Immunity "issue".

[Baveboi]

Let me see if I get this straight.
You had one of the MOST amazing dungeon scape games ever. Of all times. You used your spells to the fullest. FORGOT, for god's sakes, that you were immune to fire (and a half-dragon in the first place). Beat down the Big Bad on his own castle, even thought you could just surrender and listen what he had to say.

And you are blaming your DM?

Yeah, crazy.

[Seerow]

Let me see if I get this straight.
You had one of the MOST amazing dungeon scape games ever. Of all times. You used your spells to the fullest. FORGOT, for god's sakes, that you were immune to fire (and a half-dragon in the first place). Beat down the Big Bad on his own castle, even thought you could just surrender and listen what he had to say.

And you are blaming your DM?

Yeah, crazy.

I guess you missed the post where he indicated the DM told him had he been caught, he would have been killed or turned into one of those God-dominated mindslaves?

[absolmorph]

Seerow:
Yes, that is how LA works, because effectively the level 10 character going to 11 IS a level 13 character going to 14 because of ECL (effective character level).

Now your point of view for experience does make sense... however not that STILL, DragonSinged was, by the sounds of it, one of the if not THE lowest level character in the party (before LA, which was supposed to be dismissed as per boon, but didn't happen). So there were still, by the sounds of it, a couple people higher in level than DragonSinged... it would help to know the party's levels... or even (new) ECL.

Side note: incase it was missed by people, I also edited my last post, and commented on the Immunity "issue".
My 7,800 XP figure took LA into account. And, by my understanding, the boon for DragonSinged's wizard is the removal of the LA at the expense of 3 levels.
Working from level 10, the same fight would have been 18,000 XP. So, the XP given originally was still way too low.

[Sipex]

I guess you missed the post where he indicated the DM told him had he been caught, he would have been killed or turned into one of those God-dominated mindslaves?

I dunno, I'd tell my players the same thing.

Really, otherwise I might as well just say "You can just skip the entire dungeon thing and get caught because there are no negative consequences for doing so."

From my point of view the DM set up an amazing dungeon scrape for you which was simply more than "Kill everything to escape!"

Really, it sounds like she put a whole ton of effort into it.

Her problem? She's human and makes some mistakes.

Bring up the EXP problem with her (explain how you think you deserve more and talk to her rationally about it) but you seem very...entitled.

How much an hour do you pay this DM might I ask?

edit: After reading it would seem you've already compromised this and had some problems due to her inexperience (she's probably worried about over-rewarding you and not comfortable enough to be flexible yet). Still, she just made some novice mistakes from the sounds of it.

[WarKitty]

I dunno, I'd tell my players the same thing.

Really, otherwise I might as well just say "You can just skip the entire dungeon thing and get caught because there are no negative consequences for doing so."

From my point of view the DM set up an amazing dungeon scrape for you which was simply more than "Kill everything to escape!"

Really, it sounds like she put a whole ton of effort into it.

Her problem? She's human and makes some mistakes.

Bring up the EXP problem with her (explain how you think you deserve more and talk to her rationally about it) but you seem very...entitled.

How much an hour do you pay this DM might I ask?

Honestly it sounded to me like this was supposed to be a death-trap for the PC. Which is just bad DM'ing - you should never give your players something that you don't think they have a reasonable chance of dealing with.

[Sipex]

Honestly it sounded to me like this was supposed to be a death-trap for the PC. Which is just bad DM'ing - you should never give your players something that you don't think they have a reasonable chance of dealing with.

See, I disagree.

From what I can tell the DM doesn't have a history of trying to kill her players mercilessly and what little DM fiat existed sounds like honest mistakes (not thinking that the wizards shouldn't know about the fire immunity or possibly having some sort of communication throughout the base the OP just didn't know about).

Really, most of the fiat was based around "Please don't circumvent all my work." Not every DM is sandbox friendly, especially new.

I would say this was either:
A) A ton of fiat in favour of the PC but made to look like a death trap. Who feels awesome escaping a deathtrap? Everyone.
B) A stream of encounters the DM didn't expect to be hard but turned out harder than she anticipated. Maybe she got bad advice? Who knows.
or
C) Unlikely, due to inexperience, but a meticulously balanced encounter where she checked everything and tested it in detail so she knew he'd just barely escape.

edit: Also, if she wanted to kill him I think she would have found a more ridiculous way of doing it. Like an anti-magic field through the entire base.

[Baveboi]

Honestly it sounded to me like this was supposed to be a death-trap for the PC. Which is just bad DM'ing - you should never give your players something that you don't think they have a reasonable chance of dealing with.

Because everyone can tell by hearing only one side of the history. In most of my games he wouldn't get to be Half-dragon in the first place, or to cast spells if it was strictly plotwise.
IMO you are ranting. I can understand people get upset sometimes, but to me you just described a whole lot of fun and infinite possibilities, got face to face with the Big Bad, KNOWS where the place is, unless you have really poor memory and got to use some amazing spellcasting.

I can't conect it with "Boohoo my DM doesn't like me and wants to kill me..." which is completely unprofessional and uncalled for if, in the first place, it is true. Since you actually handled the entire thing, I don't see any problems here besides the fact you are not ranting for an oficial achievement of badassery.

Of course, it's your choice to interpret yourself as "victim", not "amazing master of the dugeonescape".

PS: No, I can't bother to read 3 pages of rant. Some of us have work to do and are bloody envious because someone had 6 hours of intense dungeonescaping roleplay, won and is crying about it.

[Sipex]

Agreed with the above.

If you're going to quit, do it. Your DM wasted a ton of effort on you that you don't even appreciate.

[Last Laugh]

To avoid future scenarios like this I think you should walk your DM through making an account on this Forum. Pointing out the FAQ thread (and new FAQ DM thread) so that we can help before crazy stuff like this happens!

On a sidenote I wish my DMs provided half the challenge yours do, the only time they have is when they DM fiat tons of damage on the group at the beginning of combat. (Not as terrible as it sounds, they don't give us listen checks to hear the red dragon at the end of the tunnel that can breath on us from around corners.... maybe it is as bad as it sounds.)

[Amphetryon]

which is completely unprofessional and uncalled for

What does professionalism have to do with a hobby, exactly?:smallconfused:

[Baveboi]

What does professionalism have to do with a hobby, exactly?:smallconfused:

Absolutly nothing if you don't plan to put any WORK on it at all. :smallbiggrin:
Proffession (Dungeon Master) is one of my best skills, thank you very much.

[Amphetryon]

Absolutly nothing if you don't plan to put any WORK on it at all. :smallbiggrin:
Proffession (Dungeon Master) is one of my best skills, thank you very much.

Congratulations on getting paid to do it, then?

But, then again, if it's your profession, why don't you have time to read a whole 3 pages pertaining to the hobby?

[Baveboi]

Congratulations on getting paid to do it, then?

But, then again, if it's your profession, why don't you have time to read a whole 3 pages pertaining to the hobby?

First, the work is its own reward, thought I do DM on conventions for a reasonable price.
Second, because it isn't pertaining to the hobby. If he was Ed Greenwood or, hell, Gary Gygax himself I would stop on my track and listen each and every word before responding, but he is just mad. Even if he have all the right to be, I find it imature given the points I stated before.

PS: Note that I'm not calling anyone imature, I'm just qualifying one action, that can or cannot be interpretated as such, as imature. Take offense at your own leisure.

[Volos]

I hope this isn't thread necromancy (not really sure if there's official rules for that, I couldn't find a definition), but this is just an update for anyone who was interested. Got my XP "reward" from the GM today (finally).
Drumroll please...

8520 xp.


What.


I don't even.

I have a very simple explination of what went down here.

Go to page 39 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. Read the last paragraph on the right hand side. It clearly states that if the PCs (or PC in this case) defeat something far beyond their own power level through a unique set of circumstances or through unbelievable luck that they should not recieve a full XP reward. So you should either stop complaining and quit the game because the DM is trying to make your miserable or you should suck it up and just play the game.

[Gavinfoxx]

I have a very simple explination of what went down here.

Go to page 39 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. Read the last paragraph on the right hand side. It clearly states that if the PCs (or PC in this case) defeat something far beyond their own power level through a unique set of circumstances or through unbelievable luck that they should not recieve a full XP reward. So you should either stop complaining and quit the game because the DM is trying to make your miserable or you should suck it up and just play the game.

But he didn't beat it via unbelievable luck. The luck was mostly just a group not making their saves for the web. He beat it by *being a batman wizard who thought he might have to escape a prison*, and prepared spells for that eventuality, and using them and good tactics to the best of his ability!

[Volos]

But he didn't beat it via unbelievable luck. The luck was mostly just a group not making their saves for the web. He beat it by *being a batman wizard who thought he might have to escape a prison*, and prepared spells for that eventuality, and using them and good tactics to the best of his ability!

He beat it by luck. See here.


I pretty much only survived through sheer luck, skill, and liberal use of Glitterdust, Solid Fog, and Shatter (Lotta blind fighters & wizards in that building when I left). I didn't deal a single hit point of damage to anyone, and escaped with about 2 HP remaining.

There ya go.

[DeltaEmil]

So every time somebody rolls a natural 20 on a saving throw or an attack roll, they're denied xp.

Got it. That's how D&D should be played.

[Volos]

So every time somebody rolls a natural 20 on a saving throw or an attack roll, they're denied xp.

Got it. That's how D&D should be played.

If that is how they luck out of a fight that by all rights they should have run from due to it being too powerful for them to fight, then the DMG would say yes. Otherwise you have brought useless sarcasm to the discussion. The game is designed to allow for nat 20s to make the game interesting and fun. But when a player excapes a dungeon full of NPCs of their level with all sorts of nasty traps and safety mechanisms... either the DM is being a tard or the player lucked out of something they were not supposed to beat. Therefor, a full XP reward is not appropiate. Otherwise one player gets far more power that everyone else from leveling two times from one fight/encounter/dungeon.

[holywhippet]

Honestly it sounded to me like this was supposed to be a death-trap for the PC. Which is just bad DM'ing - you should never give your players something that you don't think they have a reasonable chance of dealing with.

Tell that to one of my former DMs. He threw a magical weapon deprived, mostly second level group against a werewolf (more or less) in a 2nd edition game. Then a few sessions later, after we indicated roughly the direction (not path, direction) we would be travelling to someone, he threw us into an ambush against about 2 dozen archers. He was as shocked as we were that it didn't turn into a TPK.

[Baveboi]

Tell that to one of my former DMs. He threw a magical weapon deprived, mostly second level group against a werewolf (more or less) in a 2nd edition game. Then a few sessions later, after we indicated roughly the direction (not path, direction) we would be travelling to someone, he threw us into an ambush against about 2 dozen archers. He was as shocked as we were that it didn't turn into a TPK.

Ahhhh Second edition. The only time I could actually kill with a sword without the need to use my wit.
You have won achievement: Make Another Player Revisit His Past. +5 points

And try beating up a Magic Golen with a high level party. My knuckles went sore that night.

[DragonSinged]

Wow, there's been a lot of replies since I last checked. I'll try to respond to most of them.
First, though, I seem to be getting a lot of replies saying, "Man, you got 6 hours of game time, awesome! What the hell's your problem, why are you complaining! Your GM was obviously trying to make sure you had a great time, and clearly succeeded, so why are you angry?"

Obviously this isn't everyone's opinion here, and I appreciate all the people who seem to understand what I'm getting at, but again, the main problem wasn't that I got to play a lot of D&D - that's totally cool. The problem was the.. It's difficult to put into text, but the sort of air of hostility that was present throughout - GM getting visibly annoyed when NPC's failed saves (rolls were made in the open due to sort of cramped gaming space), arguing heatedly when I had a defense ready for that spell that just got cast that would have killed me, other spells getting retconned, and different spells cast in their place after the damage dice had been rolled for the original spell... Yes, most wizards might know that a half-gold dragon is going to be immune to fire, but after the first maximized magic missile hit my Shield spell, with no one around to witness, I found it interesting that not one other of the great number of wizards I ran into afterwards cast another magic missile, even after the GM said they were all pretty much using the same spell list, for convenience.

@Crossblade - Thanks for the Kudos and backup, appreciate it.

@Angelmaker - Again, when with the party, I really do my damned best to not show off, win every combat myself, whatever. I mostly toss around solid fogs and walls of stone, and buff up the fighter and paladin, or whoever needs it, or fly around doing recon and utility stuff. And again, everyone in the party has something for their 'boon' - for instance, the paladin has an artifact warhammer that is intelligent, levels up with him (increasing damage, damage types, gaining minor caster levels). Instead of something like that, I'm playing a half-dragon (mostly just for fluff, personally I love dragons [lotta them show up in my games.])
And regarding the "why don't you help the GM" thing - That was a big part of how this character got into the game, very smart with lots of knowledge ranks, he was a professor at a university, and came into the party with a lot of information to help guide them to where the GM wanted us to be heading. I do try to help the GM when I can, but that's pretty much the GM's job, to get things done. I'm not really a fan of metagaming at all, and I will avoid it if at all possible.

@Absolmorph - I actually did have him make a cup of tea once, while the party was killing some werewolves. Good times. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and for people who were wondering, yes, I was the lowest level in the party at 10, now I'm pretty much even with everyone at 12, except for.. the paladin and cleric, I think, are sitting at 13. So I think that makes it Fighter, Duskblade, Wizard, and Arcane Trickster at 12, Cleric and Paladin at 13. I could be wrong though, I don't really keep track of everyone else's levels.

@Baveboi - I apologize if I've ticked you off in some way, but I would appreciate it, if you're going to post, if you didn't come in accusing me of "crying" about the whole thing, putting stuff like "boohoo" into my mouth, and then calling me "unprofessional" - though I will admit, I never really did think of myself as behaving "professional" in this whole D&D thing. Also, I'm a bit confused - You called me immature, but then immediately followed up with saying that you weren't calling anyone immature? Anyways, if you "can't bother to read 3 pages of rant" (Correction: 3 pages of conversation) to see if what you're posting about has already been addressed, well.. Don't know what to say to that, I guess. Moving on.

@Volos - I gotta say, in any game that I won, if the PC's managed to pull off defeating something that I had thought they would run away from, and should have run away from, they would certainly get rewarded for it. "Oh man, you guys actually managed to kill the Great Wyrm Gold Dragon, consuming all of your resources in the process, and survived?! Sweet! Have 5000 XP!" Somehow... that just seems like not a very cool thing to do, to me. And, yeah, I do think I got rather lucky, but... what about the rest of the encounter, where I was scrambling for my life, and effectively using spells and scrolls and all that? Does "cast the right spell in the right place at the right time" = "got lucky"?

Ahh, deep breaths. Sorry. Not intending to come off all angry sounding, just getting a bit defensive, will take a step back here.
Anyways, what's done is done, I guess. I've gotten a lot of useful feedback here from a lot of people, which has helped me put the whole thing into perspective, and helped with dealing with the GM quite a bit.

So thanks again for all the constructive input, you guys are awesome!
GitP - Solving problems!

[Strife Warzeal]

I have a really important question about this.
Spoilered in case some may be offended, you have been warned.
Are you sure?What kind of tea was it?
Sorry for the lame joke.

[DragonSinged]

I have a really important question about this.
Spoilered in case some may be offended, you have been warned.
Are you sure?What kind of tea was it?
Sorry for the lame joke.

Tea, Earl Grey, Hot. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2IJdfxWtPM)

[Baveboi]

@DragonSinged: You know, first and foremost, understand that I have as much respect for your person as I can harbor for anyone. Which is a lot.

Secondly, "Also, I'm a bit confused - You called me immature, but then immediately followed up with saying that you weren't calling anyone immature?" This got me worried.
If you didn't understand my english I apologize beforehande, since my statement wasn't directed at yourself as a person, but at "just qualifying one action, that can or cannot be interpretated as such, as imature." Nowhere here I believe I said you were immature, but I firmly stated that your actions were.

Keep up with me: I do really believe you are complaining with a full stomach and it's of my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, your DM is female. Do you guys have any peronal history together? Because that sounds more of personal resentment than game-time complications.

And mostly, for my surprise, don't believe gaming can be taken as seriously as a job. I think they forget that guys like the Giant, Gygax and Greenwood made their names with it, so why is it so hard to understand professionalism towards gaming? I myself see the Giant as a professional, not a simple geek who enjoys gaming, the same way I see Gygax and Greenwood.

I apologize if my argument was missleading. I try my best to write in proper english, which isn't my mother language, but it does get confusing sometimes. I do hope you can assert everything with your DM, but I find it very immature (again, not calling yourself immature, but this single behaviour) to express your descontentament on the Playgrounds.
It's your problem and not ours. People do find it tentalizing to meddle with others affair, and as much as I'd like to give you any kind of advice, I could be wrong and wreck your gaming. I don't accept that responsability and find the people that do very childish for they don't understand the concept of standing on your own two feet.

That said, I'm sorry again if I was in any way agressive or unproperly elaborated my POV. But that's what it is, my POV and IMHO anyone should not pay as much atention to it as people are doing right now.

Bavette.

[Sipex]

Ah, you probably should have included a lot of that stuff in your initial post, but I'm glad you responded so calmly.

Talk to your DM and be frank with her, ask if she was actively trying to get you killed or not. Even if she lies you should be able to tell. I'd still give her the benefit of a doubt as this could also be a case of "Newbie DM makes several mistakes in the heat of battle" (ie: Changing the spell after because maybe she meant to use a different one. Very possible if she's got anything similar to ADD). The sighs and stuff could go either way, they could be geniune, or, in my case, they could be theatrics. I fake being irritated and such when my monsters get routed because then my players know they're doing an amazing job.

[Angelmaker]

Angelmaker: The OP didn't guilt the DM into giving them a bunch of experience. They pointed out that the DM gave them a really weak reward for something that was completely ****ing crazy that the DM didn't expect to work. And the DM fiat was mostly working against DragonSinged; doors that each have a different password? Every mage knowing DragonSinged's wizard is immune to fire after the first attack? A building-wide Dimensional Lock effect?
Also, this is a Batman-type wizard. They stop the enemies and make some tea as their party kills the enemies.
My point here is more or less a view from the teammembers perspective. I agree with you that if it happened like told it is more or less a great feat of escapism. :smallbiggrin: - albeit a very unbelievable one. Just the fact the BBEG stood in the dungeon whilst his guards get glitterdusted one after another? Better put on a 3.0 version of haste for making it more believable.

Player A get´s some additional play time and suddenly, next game, without a chance to catch up, he gained 2 levels? Ok, it happened. And if all that has been told was more or less accurate, from a relatively unbiased position - fine. It maybe mechanically sound ( and we still don´t know if there wasn´t the least bit of guilt involved in the XP-negotiations... maybe she knew she screwed up and wanted to make things right. ) but it is really a bad way to screw the others.

Don´t get me wrong: If it works for you, fine. I don´t even have any idea on how to set the situation straight, but... it more or less is a mess, which is completely uncalled for by the other players. ( once again: If no one objects, excellent - your group has far better people in it than I am. For I would kind of feel cheated. ).

@ DragonSinged: I understand completely and if everything works out for you group, excellent. Just, I can´t really comprehend what´s going on here. Perhaps she has the hots for you and wants to place you in her dark, damp dungeon. :smallbiggrin:

[Foeofthelance]

Eh, I'm probably going to catch some flack for this, but...

I'm on the DM's side with this one.

A player, upon hearing the government was being mind controlled, comes up with the brilliant plan of...approaching the government and telling them they're being mind controlled. He does this without the rest of his party, meaning he has no meat shields or healing at his disposal if something goes wrong. From what's given, he doesn't even bother to tell anyone where he's going so they can come looking for him if something goes wrong, like running into the mind controlled government forces.

He then willingly allows himself to be escorted into the prison/intelligence building of a very high government official...one who would most likely be one of, if not the, primary target for the BBEG to make sure the plan works. Because no one is going to suspect something is wrong if the person responsible for telling them something is wrong is telling them everything is fine. The building in question doesn't want anything or anyone getting out who isn't supposed to, and has the expected defenses of such a fortress.

Upon realizing he's stumbled into a trap, the PC then breaks out...only to give up right away to the next bunch of guards he encounters, instead of trying to finish his escape. This just gives the bad guys more time to prepare and call in the BBEG, who will probably want to interrogate the person who has stumbled on to his plan.

When the player finally tries to escape for real, the bad guys, who are primarily spell casters, use nothing but damage spells instead of any of the save or suck spells. Their only attempt at tactics is calling ahead when they realize their target is immune to certain spells, letting the people ahead know to change their tactics. They can do this because few of them are actually being killed, mostly just locked into one place. Even if the Sending spell didn't work, they're bound to run into reinforcements at one point or another.

There is nothing in the encounter DragonSinged described that I wouldn't either expect myself, or have placed myself. Admittedly, it sounds like the encounter was written for his entire party rather than as a solo event, but that's what he gets for going in on his own. He did an awesome job of being James Bond, and I applaud a game and character well played, but this doesn't sound like a killer DM to me, just a prepared one.

[Aotrs Commander]

There is nothing in the encounter DragonSinged described that I wouldn't either expect myself, or have placed myself. Admittedly, it sounds like the encounter was written for his entire party rather than as a solo event, but that's what he gets for going in on his own. He did an awesome job of being James Bond, and I applaud a game and character well played, but this doesn't sound like a killer DM to me, just a prepared one.


It's difficult to put into text, but the sort of air of hostility that was present throughout - GM getting visibly annoyed when NPC's failed saves (rolls were made in the open due to sort of cramped gaming space), arguing heatedly when I had a defense ready for that spell that just got cast that would have killed me, other spells getting retconned, and different spells cast in their place after the damage dice had been rolled for the original spell...

That paragraph makes think that's not so much the case. It sounds more the DM was getting desperate because the player wasn't going down (for whatever reason, possibly because the DM wanted to have DragonSinged mind-controlled or something, I dunno), while (and fair play to them for that) not getting quite desparate enough to call down DM fiat "rocks fall".

[Foeofthelance]

That paragraph makes think that's not so much the case. It sounds more the DM was getting desperate because the player wasn't going down (for whatever reason, possibly because the DM wanted to have DragonSinged mind-controlled or something, I dunno), while (and fair play to them for that) not getting quite desperate enough to call down DM fiat "rocks fall".

Yes, but that's less killer DM to me and more total frustration at 6 hours of bad rolls. I've been there myself as a DM and watched a carefully crafted scenario begin got crumble to a joke because my D20s refuse to turn higher than 9s. I will agree she's probably new and doesn't know how to handle it yet, but she hasn't shown anything other than a bad ability to improvise. Look at the information we've been given so far. They were casting scorching ray, with 3 rays each. So that's a minimum caster level of 11. Yet we've gotten:

Scorching Ray (level 2 spell)
Maximized Magic Missile (level 1 spell, 20 damage)
Cone of Cold (level 5 spell)

No Phantasmal Killer? Dispel, Curse, Feeblemind? How about Hold Monster? If they were trying to keep him from escaping, surely something that would have made him stay exactly where he was would have been a good idea? The only thing he has said that implies a lack of survival chances were the sheer numbers he was up against.

Like I said before, it sounds more like she came up with an encounter meant for his party as whole, and he ended up putting himself in a situation, whether it was bravado, stupidity, or just a bad assumption about what she would do, where he had to deal with it on his own. Rather than try to improvise something new (which again, it sounds like she's not good at) she stuck to what she had planned out, and a very well prepared player went through a tough encounter.

[BenInHB]

I'm gonna skip some of the random getting lost in the hallways bits, cause they're boring, though allow me to point out that apparently my Int 28 Wizard can't remember the last 2 turns he took getting escorted to the cell. Great.

Nit pick but that's a WIS check not INT

[Drakonzeta]

I don't like siding, so:

6 hours of strait combat is amazing, and I would be rather proud that I even survived that. Perhaps some bragging rights are in order. However, the DM was likely trying to get your character under domination. She was not trying to kill you, or possibly, she was trying to use your character to try and demonstrate to the party how to break the silver flecks link. So, she got frustrated when the attempts were failed at capturing you, as she would need a person that would give the party REAL incentive to find how to break the link. I'm not saying that the whole giant dungeon thing was called for, but one has to try to see both sides.

[Baveboi]

If it was trully the DM's lack of capability, I can understand. After all there isn't too many people out there that can pull out a Jonoleth Irenicus kind of Big Bad and do it the right justice. But really, if she wanted to catch him she could have just said so. I mean, she could have parlaied the entire encounter if the character would be mind controlled in the end.

Perharps it was something more, something like vilain exposition and he just locked the guy in a stone tomb. xD Let's hope he's not claustrophobic and asthmatic(?).... Or he might very well have killed the poor sod.

[JadedDM]

Nit pick but that's a WIS check not INT

Pretty sure memory falls under INT, not WIS. WIS is more willpower and common sense.

[Godskook]

Pretty sure memory falls under INT, not WIS. WIS is more willpower and common sense.

Autohypnosis is the most closely linked skill, and is wisdom based.

[FelixG]

Intelligence (Int)

Intelligence determines how well your character learns and reasons.




Wisdom (Wis)
...
While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.


If I were running I would likely call for a spot to locate a familiar landmark from his way in then an Int check to see if he remembered the route from that location to the exit

What he was trying to do was a combination of the two stats (knowing your surroundings from WIS and remembering a path INT0

[CrazedMalarite]

I feel like you went completely the wrong way when you talked to her about this. You concentrated on, "I should have gotten way more experience". She then gave you that, which is good, but the main issue isn't resolved - and she probably thinks it was. Given that you complained to her about the XP reward, not the situation, I suspect she thinks the issue you had wasn't with the extremely difficult encounter, but with the small reward afterwords. As such, she might see nothing wrong with doing something similar in the future, so long as she gives out a larger reward.

Edit: Unrelated and unimportant, but:


Wisdom (Wis)
...
While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.
I would consider that the important part, so it would probably be a WIS check. Allowing it to be INT, possibly with a bit higher DC, would be reasonable, though.

[Anxe]

Well from what you've told me, that isn't the DM wanting your character dead. That's your character doing something stupid without realizing it. You went into something akin to the real-world Pentagon. It makes sense that such a location would be entirely warded against scrying and teleporting. They don't want the information in there getting leaked.

What your character didn't know was that the people there were hostile, but I could tell something bad was going to happen from around this point:

Dude says, "We gotta take this higher up, will you come with me?" We go to central military intelligence building

You found out information about the government being dominated from the inside and then went to the government to deal with it? Not only that, but effectively the SS of your government? The first conclusion one would make is that the SS were behind it. Almost no other group within the government has the ability to control the whole government secretly except the Secret Service.

This wasn't a case of your DM trying to kill you. It was your character doing something dumb.

There is a point in your favor though. While it is conceivable that the SS in your campaign has a bunch of 10th level people in it's employment a problem arises in their placement. Why were over 60 of them hanging out in the "Pentagon?" Shouldn't they be out doing intelligence stuff? What were they doing at the Pentagon? Waiting for a bus or something?

[Foeofthelance]

There is a point in your favor though. While it is conceivable that the SS in your campaign has a bunch of 10th level people in it's employment a problem arises in their placement. Why were over 60 of them hanging out in the "Pentagon?" Shouldn't they be out doing intelligence stuff? What were they doing at the Pentagon? Waiting for a bus or something?

Range of scale? The real-world Pentagon has some 26,000 people working in it every day. When all the secrets and requirements come into play, you get a situation where, as one author put it, "Lieutenant Colonels are the coffee dogs." Having a decent sized number of mid to high level spell casters running around makes sense, especially if the BBEG has been having field operatives come in for "re-conditioning."

[true_shinken]

Range of scale? The real-world Pentagon has some 26,000 people working in it every day. When all the secrets and requirements come into play, you get a situation where, as one author put it, "Lieutenant Colonels are the coffee dogs." Having a decent sized number of mid to high level spell casters running around makes sense, especially if the BBEG has been having field operatives come in for "re-conditioning."

Even luetenant colonels are hardly level 10, though :smallwink: