PDA

View Full Version : Removing trained only skills



WarKitty
2010-10-29, 02:02 PM
What would the changes to the game be if all skills could be used untrained? It doesn't make much sense to me that my character wouldn't know *anything* about religion if I don't have Knowledge (religion), just that I wouldn't know much. Similarly with the other trained only skills; I'm not sure what there is to break if they're used untrained. Am I missing any major effects?

Eldariel
2010-10-29, 02:05 PM
What would the changes to the game be if all skills could be used untrained? It doesn't make much sense to me that my character wouldn't know *anything* about religion if I don't have Knowledge (religion), just that I wouldn't know much. Similarly with the other trained only skills; I'm not sure what there is to break if they're used untrained. Am I missing any major effects?

Well, K: Reg goes up to 10 if you have no ranks so you can know stuff, just not the location of Ancient Egyptian Laser Beam Generator or some such. And it wouldn't break much but many of the Trained Only make some sense; I mean, you aren't gonna be able to do backflips to avoid damage without some training. You'll just fall flat on your back and eat a sword through your heart.

Diarmuid
2010-10-29, 02:05 PM
Actually, as written knowledge that could be gleaned with a DC 10 check can be gotten with an untrained Knowledge check.

Marnath
2010-10-29, 02:06 PM
It shouldn't hurt anything, especially since it mkaes sense for anyone to be able to at least do a DC 10 check for knowledge skills. I mean, thats a gimme, so why would you need training? And you'd be able to decipher script or check traps too, it would just be harder, and in the case of traps, lethal-er.

Eldariel
2010-10-29, 02:12 PM
It shouldn't hurt anything, especially since it mkaes sense for anyone to be able to at least do a DC 10 check for knowledge skills. I mean, thats a gimme, so why would you need training?

By the rules, you CAN.


And you'd be able to decipher script or check traps too, it would just be harder, and in the case of traps, lethal-er.

...I don't think you could effectively disarm many types of traps or open locks or some such without training. I mean, go ahead, try to pick the lock on your home door and come back to tell us if you even knew where to start. And even if you did, that's probably due to either reading a book or seeing a movie on the subject, neither of which are terribly common in your average fantasy settings.

WarKitty
2010-10-29, 02:14 PM
Well, K: Reg goes up to 10 if you have no ranks so you can know stuff, just not the location of Ancient Egyptian Laser Beam Generator or some such. And it wouldn't break much but many of the Trained Only make some sense; I mean, you aren't gonna be able to do backflips to avoid damage without some training. You'll just fall flat on your back and eat a sword through your heart.

See tumble's another one that doesn't make sense to me. I'm quite capable of trying to, say, drop and roll past someone. I'm just not that *good* at it. I might get lucky and have it work, but probably not.

Then again I tend to houserule a lot of fixed DC's like that to be variable, so that might be influencing my judgment.

Cyrion
2010-10-29, 02:20 PM
See tumble's another one that doesn't make sense to me. I'm quite capable of trying to, say, drop and roll past someone. I'm just not that *good* at it. I might get lucky and have it work, but probably not.

Then again I tend to houserule a lot of fixed DC's like that to be variable, so that might be influencing my judgment.

But with the tumble skill, you're dropping and rolling without getting hit in the process and then coming up ready to swing, parry, keep running, etc. And you're able to do this on a more or less reliable basis. Under stress. With someone skilled actively trying to prevent you.

I've actually tried this many times over the years in play combat against untrained combatants. It's worked exactly once.

WarKitty
2010-10-29, 02:22 PM
But with the tumble skill, you're dropping and rolling without getting hit in the process and then coming up ready to swing, parry, keep running, etc. And you're able to do this on a more or less reliable basis. Under stress. With someone skilled actively trying to prevent you.

I've actually tried this many times over the years in play combat against untrained combatants. It's worked exactly once.

Right. Hence why I said you might get lucky, but probably not.

On reflection: Maybe add a penalty to untrained skills?

Marnath
2010-10-29, 02:23 PM
I mean, go ahead, try to pick the lock on your home door and come back to tell us if you even knew where to start.

Straight blade hunting knife and a mallet. It's not pretty, but once it stops being a lock it no longer matters. ^.^

As for a trap. Have you ever heard of a ten foot pole? *poke*

Eldariel
2010-10-29, 02:24 PM
Straight blade hunting knife and a mallet. It's not pretty, but once it stops being a lock it no longer matters. ^.^

Aye, but that's not what the skill "Open Lock" does :smalltongue:


As for a trap. Have you ever heard of a ten foot pole? *poke*

For about 1/100th of the trap triggers, that triggers the trap. Useful, surely, but Disable Device generally gets rid of traps without having the trap call a Balor in your face :smallwink:

Marnath
2010-10-29, 02:31 PM
For about 1/100th of the trap triggers, that triggers the trap. Useful, surely, but Disable Device generally gets rid of traps without having the trap call a Balor in your face :smallwink:

I didn't say it was a GOOD idea. :smallbiggrin:

Warkitty: I don't think a penalty is necessary, without any skill ranks you'll probably suck at the skill anyway.

Doug Lampert
2010-10-29, 04:01 PM
...I don't think you could effectively disarm many types of traps or open locks or some such without training. I mean, go ahead, try to pick the lock on your home door and come back to tell us if you even knew where to start.

Don't need to try it, I locked myself out 20 years ago and opened the damn door with a coke bottle and pocket knife. Same as I'd done years earlier when my uncle accidently locked himself out of a room in his house while I was there in junior high. But in junior high with no previous experience or instruction it took me about 5 minutes to figure out how to do it.

TV shows were a negative value, they showed credit cards as a usable tool, but plastic that stiff is unable to bend arround the jam and utterly worthless.

My friends in highschool once got a request from the instructor to ask to borrow the key prior to entering the chem lab, seems a police officer had come through the school and noticed the scratch marks and made a fuss. This was the only reason anyone with a clue and a straight piece of strong metal needed a key to get into the chem lab. (The supply cabinets on the other hand were secure, probably just as well.)

Most locks, and I'm talking modern allegedly pretty good locks, are trivial. Medieval locks tended to be little better than polite suggestions.

I've given up arguing with my wife that the bolt locks on the outer doors of our house are totally worthless and we shouldn't bother to lock them when we're in town (most home bolt locks are actually pretty good, the knob lock is worthless, but most bolts will at least inconvienence someone, not these), unfortunately she shares your touching faith that the training required would be more than 20 seconds of casual instruction or a few seconds thought.

I don't.

Marnath
2010-10-29, 04:10 PM
And if all else fails, you can use the Universal Key. A 12-gauge shotgun. >.>
Opens pretty much any door. :smalltongue:

Curmudgeon
2010-10-29, 04:16 PM
Your proposal is basically the Jack of All Trades feat (Complete Adventurer) for free. Given the very large number of D&D feats and the few slots available for them, these sorts of proposals come up pretty frequently. (Weapon Finesse and Able Learner are popular in this context.)

The problem with giving the same feats to everyone is that you reduce the distinctions separating characters. What that your intent? And why not just make everybody an Elf? After all, low-light vision, a DEX boost, and not having to sleep are good things.

kyoryu
2010-10-29, 04:18 PM
Right. Hence why I said you might get lucky, but probably not.

On reflection: Maybe add a penalty to untrained skills?

That might work. I think Tumbling is actually a good example of a trained-only skill - there are certain things that are actually pretty easy to do for anyone with even a modicum of training, but without that training, your chances are pretty much slim-to-none. Most people can do a basic martial-arts-style forward roll with a month or so of training, but actually doing a reasonable roll and not hurting yourself without that training is pretty unlikely.

So maybe something like changing trained-only to "Untrained: -5" would work.

I like going back to taking 10, and an average person as a way to gauge bonuses/penalties. What's the chance that an average untrained person could pull off a roll given time to concentrate and without pressure? A basic forward roll seems like about a DC of 10, since an average, barely-trained person can pull it off consistently if not distracted. So, what's the chance that an untrained person could do it? 10%? 20%? Let's just say 10% for argument, which would imply they'd need an 19 or better to succeed, making the adjustment -9.


But with the tumble skill, you're dropping and rolling without getting hit in the process and then coming up ready to swing, parry, keep running, etc. And you're able to do this on a more or less reliable basis. Under stress. With someone skilled actively trying to prevent you.

I've actually tried this many times over the years in play combat against untrained combatants. It's worked exactly once.

I chalk that up to cinematic "realism" rather than training.

Endarire
2010-10-29, 07:24 PM
"Tumble" isn't necessarily doing acrobatics. Instead, it's moving carefully to avoid provoking AoO and to lessen falling damage.

MyLifeMyMusical
2010-10-29, 09:29 PM
To add to the Tumble debate:

I know my Stage Combat class spent half a semester on tumbling/rolling and I'm just now feeling confidant enough to roll around with hurting myself.
(I actually had to do my final with a giant bruise on my elbow because I messed up one of my rolls the week before the final.)