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TechnOkami
2010-10-29, 10:21 PM
In short, what weapons are the best for a rogue?

Does it matter if they dual wield or single wield?

Is wielding two kukri's better than wielding one elven courtblade?

Are there better weapons? oO

Play on little giants, play on.

Flickerdart
2010-10-29, 10:23 PM
Rogues want to wield as many weapons as they can, so a pair of short swords is where you'd be at since Rogues are not proficient with the kukri. Your SA doesn't multiply on a critical hit, so range isn't important. Be sure to carry around a spare dagger (hidden) and some darts.

Dr.Epic
2010-10-29, 10:25 PM
Does it matter if they dual wield or single wield?

I kind of always thought that that was the route to go with a melee rogue. It works well with sneak attack. As for weapon, daggers: easy to conceal, and you need them if you want to go Invisible Blade (I forget what the other weapons you can use with that classes features are so that's why I'm only saying daggers).

MyLifeMyMusical
2010-10-29, 10:31 PM
I usually use (and see) Rogues with two (or all three) of the following:
Rapier and Short Sword, two Daggers and/or two Light Maces

I'd suggest having at least the maces and rapier/ss personally, but there's a certain flavor to daggers that you just can't replace. :smallcool:

TechnOkami
2010-10-29, 10:59 PM
Mmk, so then what if I were to tell you all that I was making a Drow, Cleric, Rogue, Eye of Lolth?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-29, 11:27 PM
Kusarigama, found in the DMG, light weapons that have a reach similar to the spiked chain

TechnOkami
2010-10-29, 11:48 PM
Kusarigama, found in the DMG, light weapons that have a reach similar to the spiked chain

Ooh I like that... now I just need to see if weapon finessing it is passable to my GM.

Curmudgeon
2010-10-30, 12:08 AM
Feats are precious for Rogues. You'll want to use weapons that you're already proficient in. Basically that means your primary weapon should be a keen rapier, because of its wide threat range. Craven adds a non-dice bonus to sneak attacks, so that bonus will get multiplied on a critical hit.

Two-Weapon Fighting is a poor feat tree. It forces the Rogue to go for in-your-face full attacks, meaning it risks full counterattacks. And it provides no benefit at all when not making a full attack.

Since you can buy Improved Unarmed Strike (Bracers of Striking in Magic of Faerūn for the cheap option, or Fanged Ring in Dragon Magic as the deluxe alternative), that should be your secondary weapon. The reason is the Snap Kick feat, which provides an unarmed strike with any of the following:

full attack including at least one melee attack
standard action melee attack
attack of opportunity
bonus melee attack (such as from Improved Trip, or casting a touch attack spell)
This is always a superior choice to Two-Weapon Fighting for the Rogue.

For walking around, the Rogue should always have a missile weapon ready to fire. That's going to be either a composite shortbow (most races) or longbow (if Elf). You should never squander an opportunity to hit a flat-footed enemy at the start of combat by moving instead of attacking.

TechnOkami
2010-10-30, 12:11 AM
Feats are precious for Rogues. You'll want to use weapons that you're already proficient in. Basically that means your primary weapon should be a keen rapier, because of its wide threat range. Craven adds a non-dice bonus to sneak attacks, so that bonus will get multiplied on a critical hit.

Two-Weapon Fighting is a poor feat tree. It forces the Rogue to go for in-your-face full attacks, meaning it risks full counterattacks. And it provides no benefit at all when not making a full attack.

Since you can buy Improved Unarmed Strike (Bracers of Striking in Magic of Faerūn for the cheap option, or Fanged Ring in Dragon Magic as the deluxe alternative), that should be your secondary weapon. The reason is the Snap Kick feat, which provides an unarmed strike with any of the following:

full attack including at least one melee attack
standard action melee attack
attack of opportunity
bonus melee attack (such as from Improved Trip, or casting a touch attack spell)
This is always a superior choice to Two-Weapon Fighting for the Rogue.

For walking around, the Rogue should always have a missile weapon ready to fire. That's going to be either a composite shortbow (most races) or longbow (if Elf). You should never squander an opportunity to hit a flat-footed enemy at the start of combat by moving instead of attacking.

Rapiers and single handed crossbows for the Drow, gotcha.

Reynard
2010-10-30, 12:22 AM
Ooh I like that... now I just need to see if weapon finessing it is passable to my GM.

Yes. They're light weapons. No need to get DM fiat on Finesse.

You do need it to use the weapons, however, considering their location.

Grynning
2010-10-30, 12:27 AM
Rapiers and single handed crossbows for the Drow, gotcha.

In a book called "Drow of the Underdark" there is actually a feat (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Versatile_Combatant) specifically tailored to Drow using the Rapier/Hand-Crossbow combo. The book has all kinds of great stuff for drow PC's if you can find it.

TechnOkami
2010-10-30, 12:28 AM
In a book called "Drow of the Underdark" there is actually a feat (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Versatile_Combatant) specifically tailored to Drow using the Rapier/Hand-Crossbow combo. The book has all kinds of great stuff for drow PC's if you can find it.

Oh... oh my...

Lhurgyof
2010-10-30, 01:06 AM
Ooh I like that... now I just need to see if weapon finessing it is passable to my GM.

Look up Kusari Gamas and explain to me how it's possible to wield one with a single hand.

TechnOkami
2010-10-30, 01:48 AM
Look up Kusari Gamas and explain to me how it's possible to wield one with a single hand.

How or where does weapon finesse state that you must wield it with only one and not two hands?

Hat-Trick
2010-10-30, 01:52 AM
He's talking about the fact that the weapon in real life takes two hands, but only needs one in game. The silly things we allow in Dnd.

TechnOkami
2010-10-30, 01:54 AM
Mm, yeah I can see that now, my bad. Hm... *shrug*

Raendyn
2010-10-30, 05:48 AM
Craven adds a non-dice bonus to sneak attacks, so that bonus will get multiplied on a critical hit.



thats not correct!

(a)CRAVEN

[GENERAL]

Like most sly rogues, you are a dangerous coward. However, your sneak attacks deal more damage than normal.

Prerequisite: Sneak attack class feature, cannot be immune to fear

Benefit: You take a -2 penalty on saving throws against fear effects. However, when making a sneak attack, you deal an extra 1 point of damage per character level.

Rulebook: Champions of Ruin (p. 17)

As to my understanding this is clearly added to sneak attack dmg!

(b)Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak
attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Rulebook: Player's Handbook (p. 50)

from (a),(b)=>craven does not get multiplied from critical.
(!)this also goes to cripling strike, str dmg does not get multiplied,its part of the sneack attakc dmg!

even though keen rapier is a good thing due to great fluf!

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-30, 05:55 AM
When making a sneak attack, you add damage to the attack. Not to the sneak attack.

The sneak attack is the extra xd6 damage, which isn't multiplied - because you don't multiply extra dice of damage.

mostlyharmful
2010-10-30, 06:02 AM
Don't forget flasks of acid and alchemists fire, ranged elemental damage touch attacks.... better still if you can talk your DM into allowing weapons that leave your hand while you're under a blink effect to always end up on the material plane...

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-30, 06:04 AM
That would completely unbalance Blink.

Even more than it's already unbalanced, I mean.

Why should melee attacks get the miss chance, but not ranged attacks?

mostlyharmful
2010-10-30, 06:07 AM
That would completely unbalance Blink.

Even more than it's already unbalanced, I mean.

Why should melee attacks get the miss chance, but not ranged attacks?

because when an object leaves your hands the spell stops affecting it. While your sword is in your hand the Blink effect has it bounce back and forth between planes with you, when you put it down on the table it stops being Blinked so it stays on the table.

Put it anouther way, is there a 20% chance that the rogue is going to wind up on the Ethereal Plane when he shuts off the spell effect?

freebiewitz
2010-10-30, 06:12 AM
Though feat wise expensive I always liked the idea of a rogue who uses a dagger whip.

You trip the enemy, get a free attack which also counts as a sneak attack and well you deny them the ability to really move that much. Useful too since your allies will get bonuses to attack a prone enemy with melee weapons.

Another thing I like to see is a rogue who uses the trapsmith skill followed by ranged attacks.

Quick draw feat is pretty damn good to especially if you want to start throwing weapons about. Daggers are good since they can be used as melee and ranged weapons. Though versatile they don't really do that much damage I admit.

But yeah flavor wise I think the dagger whip is the best. Build wise I've never really tried it properly before with a rogue at least. I've used a dagger whip fighter whirlwind combo and that was fun.

Yora
2010-10-30, 06:20 AM
He's talking about the fact that the weapon in real life takes two hands, but only needs one in game. The silly things we allow in Dnd.
In real life, the weapon also does not have range. You could use the chain end like a metal whip, but from what I now, you never use the blade end like a flail.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-30, 06:53 AM
Light weapons are finnesable by default.

Curmudgeon
2010-10-30, 07:21 AM
thats not correct!

(b)Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak
attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Rulebook: Player's Handbook (p. 50)
You're looking a bit too narrowly here, and losing what "this" refers to in your quote.
Sneak Attack
...
This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied. From the Combat chapter, page 134:
Multiplying Damage
...
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack or the special ability of a flaming sword, are never multiplied. The Rogue's sneak attack damage from dice is never multiplied. Craven adds a bonus to sneak attack that is not from dice, and you follow the appropriate multiplication rules for all parts of your sneak attack damage.

Leon
2010-10-31, 05:13 AM
It depends - im im going to go the Swashbuckler/Daring Outlaw way i'll grab a Courtblade for the dual damage and finessable threat but recently ive been more intersted in Str based Rogues and hitting things with normal weapons.

If i was to go with a Dual small weapon setup i'd grab at least 2 levels of ranger for the Combat style (the other Ranger class features are nice as well)

Otherworld Odd
2010-10-31, 03:39 PM
If you're DM would allow it, I'd suggest Sawtooth sabres from the Curse of the Crimson Throne module (it's pathfinder, but it's compatible.) They're treated as light weapons if you're proficient with them, with a pretty good damage output (a d8, I believe). Dual-wield them, of course.

Greenish
2010-10-31, 03:54 PM
If you're DM would allow it, I'd suggest Sawtooth sabres from the Curse of the Crimson Throne module (it's pathfinder, but it's compatible.) They're treated as light weapons if you're proficient with them, with a pretty good damage output (a d8, I believe). Dual-wield them, of course.If they're exotic and don't have anything but being light going on for them, I wouldn't waste a feat. 1d6 from short sword or rapier deal just one average damage less, and don't cost a feat.

Otherworld Odd
2010-10-31, 04:02 PM
If they're exotic and don't have anything but being light going on for them, I wouldn't waste a feat. 1d6 from short sword or rapier deal just one average damage less, and don't cost a feat.

Yeah, had to talk my DM into letting me trade a couple of my useless racial features for exotic weapons prof. It's good when you have a flexible DM.

Gametime
2010-10-31, 08:48 PM
because when an object leaves your hands the spell stops affecting it. While your sword is in your hand the Blink effect has it bounce back and forth between planes with you, when you put it down on the table it stops being Blinked so it stays on the table.

Put it anouther way, is there a 20% chance that the rogue is going to wind up on the Ethereal Plane when he shuts off the spell effect?

Considering that the spell flat-out states a 20% miss chance to "attacks," and spells also have a 20% chance to not affect the Material Plane, I don't think there's really any basis for your interpretation beyond "Doesn't this seem like it would make sense?"

And, really, we don't have much room to be talking about how a spell that rapidly blinks you back and forth between dimensions should work.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-10-31, 09:17 PM
Going back to the original topic...

Rogues want to TWF to maximize their potential sneak attack output. However, they also need a reliable method of getting to use TWF, which requires a full attack. It's the Monk's Paradox all over again... really great damage output in theory, but in practice it is almost never able to be applied due to hard-to-meet circumstances.

The solution is either a one-level dip in Spirit Lion Totem for Pounce, or dip a couple of levels in Swordsage, which also can net you Shadow Blade (dex to damage), and your choice of Island of Blades (flanking made easier) or Assassin's Stance (+2d6 sneak attack) as an always-on 'stance'. One of the higher level maneuvers is Pouncing Strike, which lets you make a full attack on a charge, assuming you can make a Jump check DC opponent's AC.

Honestly, a two-level dip in Swordsage at some point after 10th level is crazy good for a Rogue. It solves many of your problems, and lets you obviate others entirely. Tiger Claw and Shadow Hand are going to be your two favorites, of course, but Setting Sun can bring some defensive ability to the table, and Diamond Mind can help you make a saving throw when you really, really need one.

Drakevarg
2010-10-31, 09:22 PM
Get a weighted sleeve (Song and Silence, methinks), if only for the lulz. It's a metal weight sewn into the fabric of your clothes that deals damage as a mace.

My party's sorcerer had one once. We called it her Bitchslap of DOOM. :smallbiggrin:

ericgrau
2010-10-31, 10:50 PM
As popular as TWF rogues are I've always considered them a trap. Not only do medium BAB, triggering sneak attack and getting full attacks make it unreliable, rogues are way too fragile to get into melee. Overall they're just not that good at fighting, so you better not be blowing too many feat and magic item resources into it. I'd only play a rogue if the party needs a skill-monkey who can also fight. And if they only need a trap-finder, then I'd dip only 1 level.

Personally I like ranged rogues. A first round full attack makes for easy, safe and early sneak attack-age, and a fast response wins fights. After that I might figure out another trigger, or flank if I must. Even then I'd prefer sword-and-buckler so I can actually get in a few good hits instead of immediately retreating or dropping. In both cases the weapon can vary because all your damage comes from sneak attack anyway. Crossbows and rapiers are common, but pretty much everything else works too.

TechnOkami
2010-10-31, 11:40 PM
Hmm... I still want my drow rogue cleric eye of lolth with the courtblade :smallbiggrin:

gorfnab
2010-11-01, 03:49 AM
A ballista is a fun weapon to sneak attack with :smalltongue:. Even better with the Sniper's Shot spell (Spell Compendium page 194) or Sniper Goggles (Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide, page 309) :smallbiggrin:.

Otherwise for melee options another spell to look into is Twilight Knife (Pathfinder Advanced Player's Guide, page 252) since it flanks with you and has its own sneak attack damage.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-01, 05:23 AM
As popular as TWF rogues are I've always considered them a trap. Not only do medium BAB, triggering sneak attack and getting full attacks make it unreliable, rogues are way too fragile to get into melee. Overall they're just not that good at fighting, so you better not be blowing too many feat and magic item resources into it. I'd only play a rogue if the party needs a skill-monkey who can also fight. And if they only need a trap-finder, then I'd dip only 1 level.

Personally I like ranged rogues. A first round full attack makes for easy, safe and early sneak attack-age, and a fast response wins fights. After that I might figure out another trigger, or flank if I must. Even then I'd prefer sword-and-buckler so I can actually get in a few good hits instead of immediately retreating or dropping. In both cases the weapon can vary because all your damage comes from sneak attack anyway. Crossbows and rapiers are common, but pretty much everything else works too.

Do both. TWFing + Acid flasks.
When in melee use the melee weapons, but for most times use ranged touch attacks.