Final Fantasy d6 (Complete System)

[Surrealistik]

Added some updates to the vehicle rules.

[squiggit]

The problem I have here is that both those changes turn the red mage purely into a support caster instead of the battle mage they are right now:

With those fastcast changes you're generally going to only be using it for spells like hex/ruse/eject and maybe burning HP for shell/protect/wall/resonance/dimensional gate/etc.

I can't see anyone seriously burning 75% of their health for a merely standard action flare or malediction, much less sacrificing their entire life bar for a scathe (though maybe as a desperation full life I guess).

The charismagic change compounds that: At nearly every level bracket a mind based red mage with your charismagic would do more damage simply auto attacking with an arcane when combined with your auto attack change. The only real exceptions here being spells that do grossly out of the norm damage like Ultima and a few other edge cases. And that's before you factor in haste letting you attack twice for every spell you could throw out (in which case even Ultima would do less damage than two attacks). Obviously this doesn't include stuff that naturally scales off MND.

[Surrealistik]

After factoring in the damage reduction of group spells and the increment to physical damage, it's still a bit harsh, yes; it should be examined and compared in the context of other important changes.

Changing Fastcast to 25% HP per tier beyond the 2nd should work:

Red Mage, Fastcast: The Red Mage can cast a spell as a Standard action by paying 25% of his max HP per tier of that spell beyond Intermediate once per round. HP lost in this way cannot be restored by that spell.

The only upgrade I could see making to Charismagic without breaking it is having it use a somewhat higher % of MND than 50%, which gets a little awkward in terms of calcs.

[squiggit]

Someone earlier in the thread suggested Dex based spell scaling. Not sure I completely like the idea but it does help address the problem of them being a one stat class while still keeping an emphasis on finesse. Also would discourage other mages a bit from dipping red for it.

AoE balance needs to be careful. I don't much like the idea of just dividing damage because then it's not a true AoE and it makes the feature less desirable in situations where you're not worried about the single target damage being too strong (i.e. 3-5 moderately strong enemies. If the AoE just divides the damage between them you might as well just do single target).

[Surrealistik]

The way optional AoEs are structured is that the damage is divided by the number of targets up to a certain point. The option to spread out damage to start is advantageous alone. When you have 4+ targets, the net damage is greater as there is no further degradation.

Yes, divvying up the damage becomes more situational and isn't such a no-brainer virtually all of the time, but that's the idea; aggregate damage is currently far too high.

Now granted, spells that default as AoEs are also an issue, and should have their ridiculous aggregate outputs likewise tackled. Changed existent wording to this:

Multi Target Spells: Damaging spells that allow you to attack a group have their damage divided by the total number of targets (Maximum divisor of 3). This includes spells that can either single target or be used as a group; in this event, the single target damage is divided; you can choose the exact number of targets for these spells.


As for Dex scaling spells, how so? In terms of damage? Wouldn't that skew things even _more_ in favour of Finesse?

[Sparx MacGyver]

What does the Special Vehicle Job Ability do? It says you get one free vehicle equal to your highest tier item +1.

[Surrealistik]

What does the Special Vehicle Job Ability do? It says you get one free vehicle equal to your highest tier item +1.

Yes, as per the above chart.

So if you had a Tier 3 weapon, you'd get a Tier 4 vehicle by taking that Job Ability.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Yes, as per the above chart.

So if you had a Tier 3 weapon, you'd get a Tier 4 vehicle by taking that Job Ability.

So it essentially replaces the current shared ability that grants a special vehicle.

[Surrealistik]

So it essentially replaces the current shared ability that grants a special vehicle.

Exactly. 10char

[squiggit]

I misunderstood then. I thought the ideas was that the AoE version of the spell would just be single target damage divided by number of targets.

As for Dex scaling spells, how so? In terms of damage? Wouldn't that skew things even _more_ in favour of Finesse?
The red mage as a class is basically already only concerned with finesse, so I'm not sure how that idea makes it worse. The big problem with red mage is that they're essentially a one stat class right now (obviously with some RES thrown in). Auto attack damage, spell damage, mana all from the same source (even survivability if they dip time for mana shield).

The idea with this change is that it would force them to divvy up their stats a bit more and essentially give them the same problem as a standard mage where they're forced to split their attribute allocations between damage and mana. While having the added benefit of making it less attractive for every other mage in the game to just multiclass to red for charismagic (presuming also that power was made less awful in the same balance sweep).

Like I said, it's not perfect. I was just reminded of the idea so I thought I'd bring it up again.

[Surrealistik]

I'm talking in general, not specifically about the Red Mage, who is indeed way more focused and without exception than I'd like.

TBH the current parameters seem pretty good. The major issue with spell damage post melee buffs was its ridiculous aggregate damage when used as AoEs, and that's pretty well fixed at this point.

[IronJawbone]

Finally got the Monster Creator all nice and spiffy. Again, thanks to Thread Of Fate for providing a great structure to build upon. I'm willing to listen to feedback, and constructive criticism!

http://www.sendspace.com/file/59g9nk

I do plan on building a bestiary with this thing, starting with a bunch of level 1 critters, and I'll share what I make. (I'm currently just banging rocks together making these things, so please don't expect too much, and don't be afraid to make edits to better suit your players.)

[IronJawbone]

Surrealistik: The errata looks really good, and I applaud the effort made to get one of these up. I've got a couple of things to bring to the table to take a look at.

Blue Mage: Observe - Not a big fan of dipping an ability to be a Blue Mage once without being a Blue Mage ever again, so I had an idea. "On the third consecutive level gain without being a Blue Mage, the ability will become dormant. To recharge this ability, the player must spend an entire level as a Blue Mage. Will always be active while as a Blue Mage."

Shields: I agree that there needs to be a price boost on the shields, but matching them to armor seems way too harsh. A x1.75 (give or take .25) seems to be more reasonable as they are just supplements to the armor rather than a second set.

Limit Breaks/Summons: It has been suggested by a few for upgrades (Novagraf Page 30 post 8)/(War Planets, Page 35, post 2), and I like the ideas. For what War Planets suggested, maybe to be used in conjunction with a Destiny Point cap to prevent hoarding/abuse. As for summons, I can't be the only one who thinks having a separate pool of points for summons only isn't a bad idea. How to implement it...I have ideas, but I'm not sure how good they are.

Gambler Slots: R8.50Mango posted this- http://pastebin.com/H9aghyke and I think it needs to be added. (Dust approved)

Black Mage Crystal Cannon: Charismagic is already being looked at, and I'm surprised this one hasn't been touched yet since it has brought about a lot of hullabaloo about 10 pages back.

[ThreadOfFate]

Finally got the Monster Creator all nice and spiffy. Again, thanks to Thread Of Fate for providing a great structure to build upon. I'm willing to listen to feedback, and constructive criticism!

http://www.sendspace.com/file/59g9nk

I do plan on building a bestiary with this thing, starting with a bunch of level 1 critters, and I'll share what I make. (I'm currently just banging rocks together making these things, so please don't expect too much, and don't be afraid to make edits to better suit your players.)

Oh damn, this looks beautiful. I'm quite impressed! Thanks for building on my dinky little thing!

[Surrealistik]

On Shields:

The _real_ value of shields is that they're another enchantable slot; the MDEF and DEF is a bonus. That said, pricing it at armour levels is pretty fair in my view.

I agree with Crystal Cannon among other things; errata's definitely a work in progress, and I haven't addressed nearly everything I've meant to thus far.

[IronJawbone]

Oh damn, this looks beautiful. I'm quite impressed! Thanks for building on my dinky little thing!

I'm glad you hear you like it, honored that you are impressed. ^_^ I couldn't have done it if you hadn't of provided a foundation. On other news for it, I really liked the idea of having Elemental Affinities and Status Vulnerabilities change with the species, but while I got that working somewhat with macros, I felt it might make people jumpy/paranoid with macros, so I left it out.
Oh, and I really like the changes you made with spells, and may just go about doing that for my game instead of raising physical users. I'd really like to see what you had in mind for Blue Magic.


On Shields:
The _real_ value of shields is that they're another enchantable slot; the MDEF and DEF is a bonus. That said, pricing it at armour levels is pretty fair in my view.
I agree with Crystal Cannon among other things; errata's definitely a work in progress, and I haven't addressed nearly everything I've meant to thus far.

Shield: Alright, I feel silly. For some reason I could've sworn that the armor's properties slot rose like weapons, and now that I see it doesn't, a closer price comparison is warranted. Still, I'm now leaning towards something like shields cost 90% of what armor does, and leaving the Tier 1 Shield at 50g.

Crystal Cannon: It's fine; no worries, no rush. It's just that when things went messy everyone talked about "how they home ruled it" but never offered what they did. I mainly offered that up since you got the ball rolling on the errata stuff rather than just doing a South Park "Rabblerabblerabble" about it.

[Valnnar]

Hey guys a while back I was talking about the homebrew Engineer changes that I added in an effort to help my melee classes keep up with my casters. As a disclaimer you must understand. . . The pace of our sessions makes casters very powerful, as MP is rarely an issue with any strategic usage. In general I have found all of my melee types to be VERY lacking in damage output by comparison to the mage builds that my group has.

Again you must understand that the core system has been changed a bit to allow for a Main-Job and Sub-Job at the same time, thus granting the Innates from both classes, and some minor access to skill from the chosen Sub-Job. This has increased the level of power that is in the game, and thus I have had to go the extra mile to increase my monsters raw stats. Also I have been creating fight scenarios that are more "Puzzle-Like" in nature, by requiring certain strategies in order to succeed correctly. All of this is to say, none of the following material is balanced for standard FFD6, but it may still bring some type of inspiration.

Currently the ability that I'm going to show you is taking the slot of a Limit Ability, and replacing the use of Clockwork Tools. I thought Clockwork Tools went in a great direction with the use of the Systems score in a combat situation, but I felt that it fell a little short on delivery. The new "Tinkering" limit ability holds enough power in it to be considered and innate, and a Limit Ability but it served as a great "Shot in the arm" boost of power to the group Engineer (who can still be beat in damage by any and all of my mages in the group). The Clockwork tools ability has now been integrated into the new Tinkering ability, however only to augment the Turret units. It does for them, basically what it does to the Engineer now.

I'm breaking this up into two posts because it's a bunch of content. I don't have any file share sites that I work with, so I hope it's okay if I put it on here plainly. If it's not cool for me to do that, let me know and I'll remove it. I'm not trying to mess with anyone's creation, I just like to add to anything that I play.

[Valnnar]

Engineer Limit Ability: Tinkering

Tinkering is a new action which augments your Invent ability, allowing you to create Inventions which can turn the tide of battle, and assist your allies. As a Slow Action the Engineer can create one of his known Inventions. If an Invention can be targeted by enemies it starts with HP equal to 25% of the Engineer’s maximum HP unless otherwise stated. Also you passively gain a skill bonus to your Systems skill equal to your Force score (this also applies when qualifying for Clockwork Tools). At the end of the Slow Action, the Engineer must roll a Systems check to determine the System Score of his Invention. The System Score check will affect each Invention in a different way. After an Invention has been created the Engineer may choose to “Upgrade” it with a Standard Action. An Invention that has been Upgraded gains additional unique effects.


Tinkering Inventions

***Turret/Cannon/Attack-Bot: Create an offensive Invention designed to deal damage to your opponents. Although the Engineer can create multiple units that will continue to deal damage on their own, he may also choose one unit to pilot/control (While controlling a Unit the Engineer is considered to be under the affects of Stop, but maintains all defensive stats). When controlling a unit he may make basic attacks at medium range, adds it’s Systems Score to his damage, and gains a +2 Acc. Otherwise, each turret will target the nearest foe (if multiple enemies are at the same range, the target is chosen randomly) within medium range, with an accuracy equal to the Engineer, and attack dealing Systems Score + 2d6 Non Elemental M.ARM damage upon a successful hit. These units still suffer from instability over time. . . At the end of each attack they have a 25% chance of malfunctioning and becoming inert. Any units that are being controlled by their maker directly do not have a chance to break after each attack.

-Upgrade: Add an additional Systems check to the total System Score of the Invention. While controlling this unit the Engineer now also gains +1 to Crit Chance and AVD. Units upgraded in this way must malfunction twice to break. Also you may add a property from the list of Clockwork Tools, and further attacks from this unit obey those rules. The property from Clockwork Tools may not be changed on a unit once it has been added.

-Cinematic Effect: This can manifest itself in a number of different ways, and is the most flexible Invention by design. These could represent arm cannons attached to the Engineer, or Futuristic Sentry Turrets, even a semi-sentient robo-servant. If made into a semi-sentient creature, the Engineer may make skill checks (out of combat) through the machine if he is controlling the unit. Only one unit can ever be controlled at any time.

***Repulsar Field: Targets and ally and creates defensive shield around them, soaking damage while improving avoidance and armor. Only one Repulsar Field can be active at a time. While active the Repulsar Field will soak 50% of incoming damage from its’ host, up to a maximum of (Engineer Level x Systems Score). While the shield holds the target is granted +2 AVD, and armor equal to (Engineer Level x 2). There is a 25% chance that the Field will become unstable and explode upon being struck. If the field explodes all enemies in short range dealing damage equal to half the remaining HP on the Repulsar Field, knocking them back with successful Force check.

-Upgrade: Add an additional Systems check to the total System Score of the invention. Armor bonus increases to (Engineer Level x 3)

-Cinematic Effect: This creates a simple and effect force barrier. It can manifest itself in a large array of colors, shapes, and sizes. Whether the inventor projects a large force wall to the prevent intruders from breaking down a door, or makes a large suit of armor for a user to wear. The Field could even be represented in the form of an automaton who seeks to defend a target, and/or inhibit the attacks of foes. In this way, semi-sentience could be used here in the same way as the Attack-Bot.

***Accelerator Aura: Target ally gains increasing surges of speed and agility culminating in a burst of speed as the aura disperses its’ energy to nearby allies. Starting the first round the target receives a stacking +1 Bonus to ACC/AVD/FIN each round. Upon the third and final round the target receives a total of +3 in all three stats and gains an additional action. Also, on the third round all allies within medium range of the user gain a +1 to ACC/AVD/FIN. The bonuses disappear after the third round.

-Upgrade: The +1 ACC/AVD/FIN bonus granted to the whole party on the third round now lasts for the whole fight, and stacks. Also while the user is under the effect of the Accelerator Aura they are immune knockback effects.

-Cinematic Effect: This could represent a stationary beacon, or a simple belt accessory which emits a time-distortion effect from its’ core. Either way time would seem to slow temporarily to the primary user more and more until a complete freeze frame allows for an extra action. Time would also slow slightly for anyone caught in the aura burst on the third round.

[Sparx MacGyver]

I've been meaning to post this for a couple days, I just keep forgetting. I've got a terrible short term memory, always forgetting things.

Anyway, here is my attempt at a stat block. I know we have the ones from the book, but I felt we needed something that was a bit more user friendly, though I love the stat blocks in the book. I just can't copy it and put my own creatures/NPC's/etc in there.

NOTE: I am making use of Surrealistik's errata in my home game, the numbers may look off if you aren't.
NOTE II: The character below isn't meant to be taken seriously, just as an example of what the stat block looks like. Probably broken, but it's just an example.
NOTE III: This stat block works well for both Characters and Monsters.

Character CL 0
Sex Race Class Level
Languages *
Immune *
--------------------------------------------------------------
Defenses Force 0; Finesse 0; Destiny 0;
HP 0; MP 0; AVD 0; ACC 0; ARM 0; M.ARM 0;
--------------------------------------------------------------
Weapon (dmg)+2d6
Weapon (dmg)+2d6
Atk Options *
Special Actions *
--------------------------------------------------------------
Abilities PWR 0, RES 0, DEX 0, MND 0,
Special Qualities * (put racial benefits or other abilities of note here)
Abilities
Limit Abilities
Limit Breaks
Spells
Skills
Weapon Proficiency
Armor Proficiency
Magic School
Possessions


And here is an example character to show you what it looks like.
John CL 4
Male Hume Dragoon 4
Languages *
Immune *
--------------------------------------------------------------
Defenses Force 5; Finesse 2; Destiny 0;
HP 104; MP 0; AVD 9; ACC 7; ARM 15; M.ARM 15;
--------------------------------------------------------------
Weapon Flametounge 60+2d6
Weapon Dragoon Lance 36+2d6
Atk Options *
Special Actions Deep Breathing – fire breath 48+2d6; bolt breath 0+2d6;*
--------------------------------------------------------------
Abilities PWR 12, RES 10, DEX 8, MND 0,
Special Qualities * (put racial benefits or other abilities of note here)
Abilities Jump, Deep Breathing, Defy Gravity, Heirloom, Ride the Storm
Limit Abilities
Limit Breaks
Spells
Skills Athletics +2, Awareness +4, Escape +5, Inquiry +5, Lore(General) +2, Negotiation +5, Stealth +4,
Weapon Proficiency Reach
Armor Proficiency Medium, Heavy
Magic School
Possessions Flametounge (Tier 4 Reach, Heirloom, element [strike], element [enhancer]), Dragoon Lance (Tier 3 reach),Dragoon Armor (Tier 3 medium), 1200 gil

[Kiton]

Valnnar: The damage on the inventions is a little odd:
Systems Score + 2d6 is quite decent at tier 1, but even if you got that all the way up to, say, 30, 30+2d6 when others are swinging for 8*STAT+2d6 is a whole other story. Especially since that stat is probably in the 20s.

[Valnnar]

These were baseline roll outs of this ability. Ultimately there are many other abilities that are meant to work with it, and boost the effectiveness of your Inventions if you want to go that route. For example, a specialist in offensive Inventions may take an ability that allows turrets to deal Systems Score x 1/2 LvL when not piloted. Otherwise the Turrets prove a way to throw nominal damage at a target with debuffs attached to it from the Clockwork Tools kit, or boost your own damage by piloting it, and basically adding your systems score to your own damage (along with other modifiers).

This was small amount of the content that I have written, there are so many other abilities that I have added to make this stuff work. . . I just haven't compiled them all. I have other skill edits that are similar for Blue Mage, and Samurai. Turns Blue Mage basically into a Blood Mage, and makes Samurai all about building up energy to unleash Limit Breaks more effectively, while gaining bonuses against opponents that no allies are attacking.

The balance is easy to find because the equations are so strict across the board. However, there are many factors in my personal campaign which are already effecting balance. So the previous post should be used more as inspiration/guidelines rather than hard rules. Just get creative with the idea, the numbers are easy and they happen pretty naturally in this rule set.

[Sparx MacGyver]

If you get a chance, Valnnar, I'd like to see what rose you've got.

[Zinoph]

Dust, I love the system you've made! I ran a Returner's FFRPG game for my group a few years ago up to around 40th level and I have to say so far FF D6 is a dream to GM compared to that beast. Monster creation is so easy that it no longer feels like a chore! I've been lurking the board for a month or two now and thought it was time to join the site and contribute. :smallbiggrin:

IronJawBone: Blue Mage ability Observe: why not just say that since its an extension of an Innate Ability if you don't have access to Learning you don't have access to Observe? It even states that it "overwrites and supersedes" Learning so in my mind it IS the Innate Ability now. All we need now is just some Errata clarifying that in the description (*hint hint* Surrealistic).

War Planets: Summons/Destiny Points: I love the idea of having a separate pool of "Summon Points". I've already implemented it into my game so its being tested now. I'm using the 10 xp per session option since my group likes longer games that go on for a year plus so I'm using the "every level you get your level in summoning points" option. The Summoner/White Mage just joined the party at level 1 so I can't report too much on it yet.

That does bring me to a rules question if anyone knows:

Can a summon use their ASTRAL FLOW ability as soon as they show up or do they have to survive to round 3 in which case they use it automatically and then are dismissed? When the party summoner called on Valfor he tried to have his first action be Energy Blast to alpha strike the target but I couldn't find anywhere where it said that he could.

Thread of Fate: Character Sheet: Love the sheet! As a graphic designer I approve! My group did notice that its missing a spot to write your XPs on though. Is that intentional?

Anyway that's all I've got so far but I did want to say that I appreciate everyone's work on the project. It's definitely a labor of love and it shows. :smallsmile:

[ThreadOfFate]

Thread of Fate: Character Sheet: Love the sheet! As a graphic designer I approve! My group did notice that its missing a spot to write your XPs on though. Is that intentional?


Glad to hear you like it!

As for your question, no, it isn't. I actually tend to not even bother with EXP in games I run with levels, since I find it easier to just level up the party according to set plotlines or when I say so - it makes it easier to know what level they will be at what time. In this case, it was a simple oversight on my part and I just completely forgot to put a place for it. I'll go around and fix it later today.

[Kiton]

Dust, I love the system you've made! I ran a Returner's FFRPG game for my group a few years ago up to around 40th level and I have to say so far FF D6 is a dream to GM compared to that beast. Monster creation is so easy that it no longer feels like a chore! I've been lurking the board for a month or two now and thought it was time to join the site and contribute.
Returners was great for IRC or other online systems where you had dicebots that could have everything you need plugged in.

Definitely too unwieldy for the table, though, which is where FFd6 can shine.
their new project [or offshoot-team's or whatever] is SEED, which is along those lines of complexity; a lot of potential, a lot of awesome, but never, ever try it without some automation aid.

[IronJawbone]

I've been lurking the board for a month or two now and thought it was time to join the site and contribute. :smallbiggrin:

IronJawBone: Blue Mage ability Observe: why not just say that since its an extension of an Innate Ability if you don't have access to Learning you don't have access to Observe? It even states that it "overwrites and supersedes" Learning so in my mind it IS the Innate Ability now.

That does bring me to a rules question if anyone knows:
ASTRAL FLOW!

Anyway that's all I've got so far but I did want to say that I appreciate everyone's work on the project. It's definitely a labor of love and it shows. :smallsmile:

Welcome to the lurker now contributor club. ^_^
Summoner question: I rechecked over the rules, and it looks like they have to live to round 3. Sounds like it's there for balance.
Blue Mage: I like it. Maybe something to add to it is an improved nature check since they can't haul it around with other classes?

[Surrealistik]

IronJawBone: Blue Mage ability Observe: why not just say that since its an extension of an Innate Ability if you don't have access to Learning you don't have access to Observe? It even states that it "overwrites and supersedes" Learning so in my mind it IS the Innate Ability now. All we need now is just some Errata clarifying that in the description (*hint hint* Surrealistic).


Now addressed.

Also gave Paladin and the White Mage Seal Evil as a shared Job Ability.

Red Mage gets Spontaneous Spell as a replacement Job Ability:

Spontaneous Spell
Usage: 1 / Combat
Action: Instant
Effect: The next time you would begin casting a spell, you can instead begin casting any spell from the same tier or lower and of the same magic type.
Special: You can take this Job Ability any number of times. Each time you do, you can use this Job Ability an additional time per combat.

[squiggit]

The problem with making Observe just replace the innate is that it ends up feeling even more like an ability tax. It also makes the blue mage another one of those classes that's a huge pain to multiclass with... and it leaves the ability obviously dead weight if you class change (and I think we have enough of those as is).

[elmerg]

Wow. Seems like I'm not the only person who's been tearing out things from under the hood and replacing them. Good job on much of it, Surrealistik.

Myself, I've been running FFd6 using a mesh of the 5-stat and 4-stat system; it's not been perfect, but it's been overall better for what my players have wanted. That said, I've been working at a heavy rewrite of some things that I may post. In particular, I've been working on additional options for Destiny from a narrative standpoint, and stripping away some ties to other systems such as Limit Breaks. I've also been working on an Initiative variant, since my group didn't like the 'good guys go, enemies go' system.

When I get them where I feel comfortable with them, I might post the Tick Initiative System I've been working on, and perhaps a potential Job writeup (Paladin is where I started and have the most work done); most of my work on altering Jobs has been culling from various FF sources like XI, XIV and other FF games (there're a plethora of options to pull from).

[Falcon777]

Now addressed.

Also gave Paladin and the White Mage Seal Evil as a shared Job Ability.

Red Mage gets Spontaneous Spell as a replacement Job Ability:

Spontaneous Spell
Usage: 1 / Combat
Action: Instant
Effect: The next time you would begin casting a spell, you can instead begin casting any spell from the same tier or lower and of the same magic type.
Special: You can take this Job Ability any number of times. Each time you do, you can use this Job Ability an additional time per combat.

The seal evil change makes sense for it to be White Mage or Paladin focused.

Um, but I don't see the point of spontaneous spell. Even if you did have the chance to play this without being online (where you can just take your time to figure out exactly what spell you want to cast), the Spontaneous Spell ability doesn't really seem to live up to its name. What's the point? You can change your mind before you've finished making up your mind? This especially doesn't make sense when you consider the 1.3 version (most up to date version I have) of Fast Cast where you can cast one spell per round as a standard action (which makes sense for a Red mage who is going to be both casting and attacking, assuming he has haste). Frankly, I don't see the point of neutering fast cast even further as Red Mages can no longer double cast each round with the 1.3 version, but that's another point altogether.

But again, Spontaneous Spell doesn't make sense to me. Care to elaborate? :smallconfused:

[Surrealistik]

Simply put, you can use spells you don't know.

This gives you a lot of flexibility.

[Falcon777]

Oh :smalleek: Wow. I didn't see that caveat. That is strong.

[Zinoph]

Spontaneous Spell
Usage: 1 / Combat
Action: Instant
Effect: The next time you would begin casting a spell, you can instead begin casting any spell from the same tier or lower and of the same magic type.
Special: You can take this Job Ability any number of times. Each time you do, you can use this Job Ability an additional time per combat.

Surrealistik - I LOVE IT! Now there is an ability that helps a Red Mage keep their 8-bit Theater "versatility"! I like it much more than Seal Evil (which I think was included because in the comic Red Mage sealed one of the fiends away in an object like it describes). When Dust comes back that should defiantly be included in some way.

Oh and maybe once the book gets updates again we should see about getting the term "once per session" changed to "once per day" since according to the errata it basically means the same thing and I agree with the concept wholeheartedly. If the GM says that a week has gone by in game time and you somehow get into a scrape both before and after why can't you use that ability again? That's just good game-play my friend. :smallwink:


The problem with making Observe just replace the innate is that it ends up feeling even more like an ability tax. It also makes the blue mage another one of those classes that's a huge pain to multiclass with... and it leaves the ability obviously dead weight if you class change (and I think we have enough of those as is).

Squiggit - I can see where you're coming from. I did a quick look over the classes and found other instances where you're taking a hit for multi-classing:

Dragoon - Highwind (Limit Ability)
Engineer - Automated Respose
Gambler - The Last Word (Slots), Winning Streak (Slots)
Geomancer - Geoawareness, Weight of the World (Limit Ability)
Monk - Hundred Fists, Final Heaven (Both Limit Abilities)
Samurai – Iaido (Limit Ability)
Thief – Flimflam, Sleight of Hand (situational)

So while I feel we've only really clarified a rule with Observe, the above examples should defiantly be considered. Personally I think it should be all or nothing; either every class has an upgrade or Limit Ability that adds to their Innate, or none of them do.

Plus something else that should be put on a list of typos to be fixed:

The Samurai ability Warding Circle refers to itself in the description as Ancient Circle which is a Dragoon ability I believe.

[squiggit]

So while I feel we've only really clarified a rule with Observe

Well it's more than that. The ability specifically states here that it works even if you aren't a blue mage and that's what people are asking to be taken away.

Really I think the problem here is that the blue mage innate doesn't do very much on its own beyond that. Bonus language and lore is really really niche.

And for your examples: I think you could add Geo, Thief and Monk in general to that list insofar as that the classes are really defined in many ways by their innate and therefore lose a lot of their identity when they class change.

[Surrealistik]

In case there's any confusion on this particular matter, the intent of my Observe replacement was to remain usable during multiclassing.

TBH, I think multiclassing in general is poorly conceived and needs revision.

[Sparx MacGyver]

In case there's any confusion on this particular matter, the intent of my Observe replacement was to remain usable during multiclassing.

TBH, I think multiclassing in general is poorly conceived and needs revision.

I dunno, I kind of think it works well. In my case, I've taken away the destiny point cost, but I did make it so you can only change jobs between sessions, as we play weekly. I know you could pretty much swap jobs at will in games that use them, I don't want my players changing jobs every 5 minutes. The only thing that really bugs me is that you lose your innate ability and it's replaced. I haven't come up with an alternative, but it seems kind of meh to me, at least from somebody who comes from Pathfinder/Star Wars Saga Edition. I kind of like the way they multiclassed in SWSE, you only got one of the starting feats, not all of them. So perhaps instead of replacing the innate ability, you retain it, but then you don't pick a new one. YOu simply get the new innate ability.

So going from Dragoon to Engineer, you would keep Jump, but rather than picking a new ability you only got Invent, and all the math for hp etc, stayed the same.

[elmerg]

I dunno, I kind of think it works well. In my case, I've taken away the destiny point cost, but I did make it so you can only change jobs between sessions, as we play weekly. I know you could pretty much swap jobs at will in games that use them, I don't want my players changing jobs every 5 minutes. The only thing that really bugs me is that you lose your innate ability and it's replaced. I haven't come up with an alternative, but it seems kind of meh to me, at least from somebody who comes from Pathfinder/Star Wars Saga Edition. I kind of like the way they multiclassed in SWSE, you only got one of the starting feats, not all of them. So perhaps instead of replacing the innate ability, you retain it, but then you don't pick a new one. YOu simply get the new innate ability.

So going from Dragoon to Engineer, you would keep Jump, but rather than picking a new ability you only got Invent, and all the math for hp etc, stayed the same.

The easiest way to render a 'multiclass' in this system, and still maintain a FF feel, would be to untie abilities from levels and give them a cost to 'master,' ala the Tactics/Tactics Advance series, and allow Job changing freely; outside of the Innate and Epic for each Job, all other abilities must be learned separately and can be mix-and-matched as the player wants, within limits (like, cannot have more than X abilities that are not in your current Job in use). It's a bit less on immersion (and at that point, if I was going for flat immersion I'd be leaving out multiclassing anyway, or use a FFXI-style Subjob system).

I dunno, none of the people I've been running this for seemed interested in Job Changing/Multiclassing, and I myself am not a huge fan of it anyway. Perhaps more thought processes are in order.

[ThreadOfFate]

The easiest way to render a 'multiclass' in this system, and still maintain a FF feel, would be to untie abilities from levels and give them a cost to 'master,' ala the Tactics/Tactics Advance series, and allow Job changing freely; outside of the Innate and Epic for each Job, all other abilities must be learned separately and can be mix-and-matched as the player wants, within limits (like, cannot have more than X abilities that are not in your current Job in use). It's a bit less on immersion (and at that point, if I was going for flat immersion I'd be leaving out multiclassing anyway, or use a FFXI-style Subjob system).

I dunno, none of the people I've been running this for seemed interested in Job Changing/Multiclassing, and I myself am not a huge fan of it anyway. Perhaps more thought processes are in order.

This seems like a good idea. I personally am forbidding job changes in my game I'm currently running, since I feel that the strongest FF games are ones where the jobs are fixed into the character - it isn't just what they're doing, it is a strong part of who they personally are.

Still, Job Changing right now seems almost like an afterthought. Multiclassing or class changing in any system is always difficult to work with.

[squiggit]

This seems like a good idea. I personally am forbidding job changes in my game I'm currently running, since I feel that the strongest FF games are ones where the jobs are fixed into the character - it isn't just what they're doing, it is a strong part of who they personally are.

I get this, but at the same time in those games characters tended to be less statically defined by a single job either. Which is probably why I like multiclassing here, just to make stuff a little more oddball (magic archers or gunmages, engineering geomancers, etc. etc.)... though as I've already complained repeatedly the system doesn't support stuff like that very well.

The problem as I tend to see it is that the system is engineered in such a way that it encourages playing a "base class" and then occasionally multi classing for a powerful ability here or there rather than creating any sort of split identity. So it ends up being less a way to help further define your character and more a way to powergame by making sure your red mage has mind over matter and ancient spells (etc.).

[Zinoph]

The problem as I tend to see it is that the system is engineered in such a way that it encourages playing a "base class" and then occasionally multi classing for a powerful ability here or there rather than creating any sort of split identity. So it ends up being less a way to help further define your character and more a way to powergame by making sure your red mage has mind over matter and ancient spells (etc.).

Agreed. But this is where there is bound to be some disconnect between the cannon games and a pen and paper rpg. In many of the games that allow rampant class changes (Tactics, FF V, FF X-2) the whole point is to jump around picking up the best abilities from each class and using them as a strategy to overcome the game's obstacles. FF D6 seems like it takes the FF V approach to multi-classing which is fine but not any better/worse than Tactics or XI.

I don't think that the multi-class system was an afterthought as I understand the last version of the game had the Freelancer career and their whole point was to jump around. I do feel that using Destiny Points may be too much. In the game I'm running now I have a player who decided he doesn't like his Monk class so he's trying to squire under a Paladin so he can class change. Instead of using Destiny I'm just making him role-play through the process and go on a dangerous quest to gain the right to class change. I think this is better from a narrative point that just having a rare in-game currency that allows you to do certain things.

Do I think Destiny Points have their place? Sure. Other games have used the mechanic to great affect; Pathfinder has "action points", Iron Kingdoms has "fate points", and Savage Worlds has "bennies". All of these help skew fate in the players favor when luck goes against them. The issue with FF D6 is that the points are so rare but everything cool uses them. I think if the Destiny Point system is designed to facilitate the narrative then just let it do THAT! Let it change the direction the story, cheat death, or whatever. Don't use it as a power source for abilities you only want players to be able to use two or three times in the entire campaign.

I feel silly for wanting to come up with ways of changing the system when Dust has mentioned herself that these are things she plans on changing anyway... but waiting is so hard. :smallfrown:

[Surrealistik]

Products of lunch hour boredom, Kefka and Sephiroth:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/17ZjjmT2rsyIujqPVT8OZzQqfz0z8szk_dKSB1GgfUGw/edit

Obviously this details their human forms; Kefka just prior to the World of Ruin while at the Floating Continent, and Sephiroth during Crisis Core/the Nibelheim Incident.

[elmerg]

This seems like a good idea. I personally am forbidding job changes in my game I'm currently running, since I feel that the strongest FF games are ones where the jobs are fixed into the character - it isn't just what they're doing, it is a strong part of who they personally are.

Still, Job Changing right now seems almost like an afterthought. Multiclassing or class changing in any system is always difficult to work with.

To me, I agree that the strongest games - as far as character thematics go - tend to be the games that have the most defined Jobs for a character.

As far as multiclassing, it does feel a bit like that; I understand the point behind it, but there's so little points in the FF games where there's cross-classing outside of pre-determined stuff (Holy Dragoon in TAY, the semi-mixed Jobs in FF9) or straight-up Job Changing with the capability to keep learned abilities (FFV, FFTA/FFTA, FFXI's Subjob system). Heck, the only instance I can think of specific, 'point buy' defining of charactertistics is the Sphere Grid from FFX, which takes a LOT of work to break out.


Agreed. But this is where there is bound to be some disconnect between the cannon games and a pen and paper rpg. In many of the games that allow rampant class changes (Tactics, FF V, FF X-2) the whole point is to jump around picking up the best abilities from each class and using them as a strategy to overcome the game's obstacles. FF D6 seems like it takes the FF V approach to multi-classing which is fine but not any better/worse than Tactics or XI.

I don't think that the multi-class system was an afterthought as I understand the last version of the game had the Freelancer career and their whole point was to jump around. I do feel that using Destiny Points may be too much. In the game I'm running now I have a player who decided he doesn't like his Monk class so he's trying to squire under a Paladin so he can class change. Instead of using Destiny I'm just making him role-play through the process and go on a dangerous quest to gain the right to class change. I think this is better from a narrative point that just having a rare in-game currency that allows you to do certain things.

Do I think Destiny Points have their place? Sure. Other games have used the mechanic to great affect; Pathfinder has "action points", Iron Kingdoms has "fate points", and Savage Worlds has "bennies". All of these help skew fate in the players favor when luck goes against them. The issue with FF D6 is that the points are so rare but everything cool uses them. I think if the Destiny Point system is designed to facilitate the narrative then just let it do THAT! Let it change the direction the story, cheat death, or whatever. Don't use it as a power source for abilities you only want players to be able to use two or three times in the entire campaign.

I feel silly for wanting to come up with ways of changing the system when Dust has mentioned herself that these are things she plans on changing anyway... but waiting is so hard.

The Freelancer job was not worth keeping in and I'm glad that it was removed as it stands; I had a player who wanted to play it, and we went over it and it just... it was underpowered for what we were getting out of our Warrior, our Engineer and our Red Mage.

Destiny Points, while I love the concept, I am ambivalent towards in practice (almost to the point of dislike); it's why in my own working on the system I'm making them a much more 'narrative control' concept with only two real 'mechanical' ties: adding dice to a roll, and activating Epic Abilities (which I'm equating to thinks like FFXI's One Hours, so a Paladin would spend Destiny to activate Invincible to negate damage, a White Mage to activate Benediction to fullheal and Esuna, or a Warrior to activate Mighty Strikes and render all attacks a crit). And I still might detach it from the uses of Epics and do something else as well (I'm not really leaning towards the AEUD setup personally).

I'm still playing with altering how to hand out Destiny as well; my current game, the players have roughly 5 Destiny under the v2 system, and haven't really spent it (outside of a tough fight against a monster where the WAR used his Epic to automurder the thing).

Also, don't feel silly; a homebrew is just that, a homebrew. The ideas that they have might not be perfect or for everybody, and there's nothing wrong with going 'I'd love for <X> to function <Y> because of <Z>.'

[IronJawbone]

Squigs does have a valid concern going all the way back to when we were talking about the blue mage, but I like when Zinoph brings up the rest of the classes. I'm liking the idea of nice things to dip into, but having skills that reward class loyalty, something that seemed to be missing a bit from 1.3.

Surrealistik - Very nice on the Sephiroth/Kefka add ons. I'm too newb to really appreciate them, but I recognize the care and craftmanship in it.

[squiggit]

Squigs does have a valid concern going all the way back to when we were talking about the blue mage, but I like when Zinoph brings up the rest of the classes. I'm liking the idea of nice things to dip into, but having skills that reward class loyalty, something that seemed to be missing a bit from 1.3.

Oh don't get me wrong, I like the idea of class loyalty. What I don't like is the way that some of those loyalty mechanics hurt the ability to create less predefined class ideas.

I tried once to make a geomancer/engineer hybrid character and in practice it was deeply frustrating simply because every time I wanted to grab an engineering skill the character stopped functioning for a few levels because the class is so beholden to its innate. This goes to a lesser extent for things like monk and thief that are also tied heavily to an innate in practice. Also applies to some extent to characters attempting to split between a magic class and a non-magic class. Not so much that you lose your identity when you job change (though the mana swings can be disconcerting at times) but that you have to spend a lot of time meticulously planning out your job changes ahead of time so that you can get the abilities you want without losing too many spells.

[Surrealistik]

I've some ideas for changing multiclassing, but it's definitely something that needs and deserves to be handled carefully.

Personally, I like the idea of arranging Job Abilities into tiers which are delineated by the number of levels in a given Job required to take them (1-5, 6-10, 11-14, and 15+ capstone) and allowing players to multiclass freely whenever they gain a level. If they want to swap classes before then, they can spend 1 Destiny. Punishes 3.5 style hyper dipping, and gives players a decent premium for pure classing and forgoing versatility.

[elmerg]

I've some ideas for changing multiclassing, but it's definitely something that needs and deserves to be handled carefully.

Personally, I like the idea of arranging Job Abilities into tiers which are delineated by the number of levels in a given Job required to take them (1-5, 6-10, 11-14, and 15+ capstone) and allowing players to multiclass freely whenever they gain a level. If they want to swap classes before then, they can spend 1 Destiny. Punishes 3.5 style hyper dipping, and gives players a decent premium for pure classing and forgoing versatility.

That's not a bad idea; a way to also add in some high-powered abilities that are contingent to each Job. I'm still of the mindset that multiclassing should be an option rather than a consistent consideration.

Now, one thing that I'm fiddling with is adding to the lists of passive/extra abilities that aren't tied to Jobs. Digging through the Reaction and Support Abilities and Augments from the various games has turned up a LOT of interesting stuff that I feel can add to the game as well.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Well, this idea came to me after reading what you folks posted about abilities. Have you guys considered doing away with levels altogether? Like, going level-less, and charging EXP to gain abilites/multiclass. It works pretty well, and has been done before, and I think it could work well here as well.A good example of this is the Star Wars: Edge of the Empire RPG by Fantasy Flight Games. It has Passive abilities, Active abilities, and Permanent abilities, all set into 'tiers' if you will, of 1-5. In terms of costs, you are charged 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 EXP from 1-5 respectively, and you pay each desperately. So if you 'bought' tier 1 and tier 2, you paid 15 altogether. Raising skills is done similarly, although more 'expensive'. And if it's one of the shared abilities, it might cost double than normal, due to being outside you're 'job'. Gotta have some balance here. I have the book and can go over this more, but I think going this route might be beneficial. Again, it might work, might not, but seemed like a good idea to suggest.

Innate abilities and Limit abilities would likely stay the same, it's just all the middle stuff that would be altered to this.

[elmerg]

Well, this idea came to me after reading what you folks posted about abilities. Have you guys considered doing away with levels altogether? Like, going level-less, and charging EXP to gain abilites/multiclass. It works pretty well, and has been done before, and I think it could work well here as well.A good example of this is the Star Wars: Edge of the Empire RPG by Fantasy Flight Games. It has Passive abilities, Active abilities, and Permanent abilities, all set into 'tiers' if you will, of 1-5. In terms of costs, you are charged 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 EXP from 1-5 respectively, and you pay each desperately. So if you 'bought' tier 1 and tier 2, you paid 15 altogether. Raising skills is done similarly, although more 'expensive'. And if it's one of the shared abilities, it might cost double than normal, due to being outside you're 'job'. Gotta have some balance here. I have the book and can go over this more, but I think going this route might be beneficial. Again, it might work, might not, but seemed like a good idea to suggest.

Innate abilities and Limit abilities would likely stay the same, it's just all the middle stuff that would be altered to this.

It'd be an individual preference thing; but one of the core conceits of Final Fantasy, even in the unorthodox ones like the Dissidia games, is levels. It's a 'sacred cow' to use a D&D term. There've been no 'levelless' FF games really, though the 'buy abilities individually' has been used after a fashion (mastering abilities via AP in many, many games), and was noted upthread as a potential option as well in conjunction with levels (there, levels control HP/MP/ACC/EVA, but abils are bought individually using AP gained in addition to XP).

To me, removing levels would be 'eh'. I like level-based games as much as I like levelless games (I play World of Darkness primarily, which has no levels). Perhaps as an 'optional rule' but not as a core concept of the system; we want FF styling (or at least, I do) without heaving way left field with any specific thing. Myself, I'm toying with the Augments ideas and expanded Job Ability lists so that a Job gets more abilities at level ups, split between Augments/Support Abilities and Job Abilities, so that no level really feels 'wasted' which I've heard as a complaint.

[squiggit]

There've been no 'levelless' FF games really
FF2 has no levels. Everything increases based on usage (including HP and MP)

[ThreadOfFate]

FF2 has no levels. Everything increases based on usage (including HP and MP)

True, but it is an anomaly in the same way that Zelda II is. Most, if not all, of the mechanics that set it apart are gone from FF games.

That being said, I agree that removing levels from a system so inherently tied to them for determining stats would be problematic. The numbers for combat are tied to the level system, so removing it entirely would require a massive revamp of the entire thing.

However, putting abilities into tiers (like Saga Edition did with the talent trees) might do wonders, and having them scale with levels would eliminate some of them from being near useless at higher levels.

[Ragingsystem]

However, putting abilities into tiers (like Saga Edition did with the talent trees) might do wonders, and having them scale with levels would eliminate some of them from being near useless at higher levels.

I think doing something like Tier 1 [Level 1-10] scales when you reach Tier 2 and 3, Tier 2 [Level 11-20] Scales when you reach Tier 3 and Tier 3 doesn't scale but is really powerful would work well. Of course if you really want a Tier 1 ability when you have access to Tiers 2&3 it would auto scale to that level.

[elmerg]

I think doing something like Tier 1 [Level 1-10] scales when you reach Tier 2 and 3, Tier 2 [Level 11-20] Scales when you reach Tier 3 and Tier 3 doesn't scale but is really powerful would work well. Of course if you really want a Tier 1 ability when you have access to Tiers 2&3 it would auto scale to that level.

Maybe. Aren't a majority of abilities in the current writeups based on Level or Level/2 for their automatic scaling, making that less of an issue? Otherwise, spell lists are about the only thing that doesn't scale with Level, and are already pretty well set up to not really need the scaling (perhaps based on effects, like a Negative Status Duration increased by being cast at a higher level, but there's no in-game need to make Thunder or Protect scale with Level, since you've got Thundaga and Protera as later-level spells that are automatic upgrades).

Extra/shared abilities might benefit from scaling; as a weak example, if you bought an HP+ Augment (assume in my posts if I type the word Augment it's in reference to support/extra abilities) it's automatically +20 at Levels 1-10, +40 at Level 11-20 and +80 at levels 21-30. Or a variant of the 'Potion Lore' Augment from FFXII, which would scale (gives a bonus of +10/+25/+50 or somesuch).

[squiggit]

Aren't a majority of abilities in the current writeups based on Level or Level/2 for their automatic scaling, making that less of an issue?

Most! Though things like Evasion and all the damage step modifying talents stand out as abilities that are tremendously effective early game and basically dead weight late game. Personally I think all of them should be given some scaling mechanic (The elemental enhancer weapon property here could use an improvement too).

But I'm not sure tiering abilities is really the answer either.

[Zinoph]

I like the idea of having certain abilities scaled for certain tiers and/or levels. Clearly all abilities are not created equal and might benefit from having a level requirement like spells. I don't care for the rule that states a Warrior who has no previous spell casting experience can jump into Black Mage at level 10 and pick up Nuke. Now I understand that is probably done for balance since his Fire spell would probably be laughable... but thematically it just rubs me the wrong way. Even Pathfinder says that certain feats are too powerful until you get to X level and if you had to be a level 5 Dark Knight before you can take Last Resort then I'm fine with that. That would allow you to make certain abilities that seem a little over powered great for the higher tiers. Would it suck for multiclassing? Yeah but that's how it usually works in an RPG... the guy who dabbles in multiple classes just doesn't get to be as good as those who specialize. That would make the Red Mage the superior Warrior/White Mage/Black Mage choice because that class lets him be more affective at it than a warrior who actually multiclassed into those three separately.

[elmerg]

Most! Though things like Evasion and all the damage step modifying talents stand out as abilities that are tremendously effective early game and basically dead weight late game. Personally I think all of them should be given some scaling mechanic (The elemental enhancer weapon property here could use an improvement too).

But I'm not sure tiering abilities is really the answer either.

Yeah; I'm not sure either. I'm looking at options and ways to expand the game content and make a few changes (particularly unhinging Destiny from at LEAST Limit Breaks; my players last night spent tons fighting a major boss activating Epics and using their Limits in the fight). I haven't come up with anything definitive yet, though I do want to expand the Job Abilities and the Augments, as well as the weapon properties.

Also, while pondering over some of the changes (like testing out the mentioned point upthread about how the 'added multiplier' abilities like Bad Blood are bad at high levels), I made a new logo. Partially as a logo for stuff I'm going to be making for the project, and partially as just playing with photoshop.

http://i.imgur.com/V7gJY6T.png

[Kiton]

How about a different set of HP/MP/Damage formulas?

-A level 15 monster's max HP at 60 res, dragon end-boss types, would be 9000. A party with a couple of destiny points readied for some limit breaks could punch through this in a single volley.
-The "lesser" mages [blue/time] cannot afford their more expensive ancient level spells at 15th level even a single time without either having dipped into Charismagic, stunted the actual power of their spells to a significant comparative degree, or focused on mp-boosting equipment.
-Abilities that deal +1 damage step are devastating damage doublers at first level, and inconsequential afterthoughts by tenth.

If MP growth by job were halved, but MP was instead 1.5*MND, we'd see a lot less casting troubles for the 'weaker' casters.

If monster HP was, say, based on triple their RES before multipliers, this makes RES actually valuable, rather than a dump-stat that isn't damage on a one-round-wonder [an end-boss with just 9000HP because its 'just' a dragon with 60 res can get one-rounded by the right parties].

And as a result, if we start damage at 1+Tier[or 1+HalfLevel] that +1step is now just under +50% damage rather than double, and can safely evolve at Tier 4 to +2 and at Tier 8 to +3. The gain still drops a little over time, but there's far greater value in taking them regardless.


Also goblin bomb is non-elemental type but deals fire damage.
Would it perhaps be possible to grant very mild scaling to the weakest spell levels or abilities? Powx3 ain't bad at first, but I've always found the "discard half your spells" aspect a bit annoying. Surely there's some way we can keep damage abilities at least a little fun.

This can go both ways of course; it can be used to tone down some of the stronger effects or abilities until later. Not necessarily just through damage, either. Let's take Darkside for example: With the drastically decreasing output, it would be quite reasonable to lower the HP% cost as you go up. It could start at +2 steps, 25/50%, become +3 and 20/40% in mid levels, and eventually settle at +4 with 15/30% by endgame. less of a power boost, but far improved efficiency.

[Zinoph]

A few things that came up in our Saturday game last week...

Does anyone else think the Blind condition is overpowered as is? Removing an entire d6 from your attack rolls sounds easy and nifty but one of my players mentioned that it seemed harsh, stating that the bell curve of 7 with 2d6 completely gets destroyed with that and you lose the ability to crit. He even mentioned that if a single roll of 6 on the d6 resulted in an auto-hit (which with the rules as written we don't believe it does) then probability was then skewed in the players favor and it was actually beneficial to be Blinded. He suggested that instead of removing an entire d6 just have a penalty to hit like -2 or -4. Still results in misses but you can still crit and get lucky shots off.

Poison also came up as being very unforgiving as well, especially to a low leveled party who only has access to potions that heal 25% HP where poison saps 20% every turn on top of possible monster damage. We thought that having poison only deal 10% HP damage every round for an entire combat (unless cured) could potentially be a problem for longer fights but more forgiving than the 80% HP damage over 4 rounds that the current system uses.

Also had a question about the Monk's Unbreakable Form. If a player were to take it twice at level 1, then again at level 2, does that mean that his bonus HP at level 3 would be +80? I got that from level 1 +20, level 2 +30, then level 3 +30. Or is it just suppose to give a flat +30 bonus on top of hit point calculations every level?

In general I'm removing the Destiny Point requirement from Abilities. Just don't like it. Changing them to once per day powers so we'll see how that turns out. My group is still having a blast with the system and we're all looking foreword to next weeks session. :smallbiggrin:

[squiggit]

A random question for other people DMing/eratta-ing.

Do you think abilities that act as "free" (other than the fact that they eat an ability/property slot) equipment are balanced out by the fact that they don't cost gil? Or does the lack of properties and other weaker bonuses counterbalance them?

The specific examples I'm looking at here:
-Pugilists never have to buy weapons.. but they also never get a chance to 'leapfrog' weapon tiers and get zero weapon properties.
-Flawless Form for Samurai's gives them free medium armor if they've got nothing in that slot... but again, no armor enchantments.
-Mineralize doesn't stack with shields (I actually don't know why) but at the same time is almost always going to give less armor than a shield in addition to providing no avoidance and again, no properties. Does the self petrify make up for this?


Also had a question about the Monk's Unbreakable Form. If a player were to take it twice at level 1, then again at level 2, does that mean that his bonus HP at level 3 would be +80? I got that from level 1 +20, level 2 +30, then level 3 +30. Or is it just suppose to give a flat +30 bonus on top of hit point calculations every level?
Well it says 10 HP per level and stacks up to three times. So at R3 it should be 30 points per level. Which would be 90 at level 3, wouldn't it? It doesn't say anything about only counting levels in which you take it (And RES works in the same way in that it applies retroactively).

I can get behind reducing/removing destiny costs on abilities. It's a huge pain when you have to weigh your 'epic' abilities against painful destiny costs like that. Especially when everything else that's really cool eats destiny too.

[Kiton]

Destiny Points are gonna have to be reworked as a whole, but I get the feeling Dust has been working on that for a while. Some abilities treat them like they're a "per session" action-point style stack, while others make it equally obvious that they are to be a rare and precious resource carefully spent amongst permanent upgrades. Seems to me they need to be split into both fields.

Blind is devastating to players, not so much monsters. Player avoidance stays static vis-a-vis your level, while it rises for monsters. A lack of accuracy compounded by blind will wreck your ability to hit, while not particularly affecting a level 12 monster much at all.

Poison hits very, very hard, but I feel it kinda deserves it. Immunity to status effects is so easy to achieve in most FF games that if its not even a serious threat atop that, what's really the point? As a whole though, XIII's style of compound penalties probably makes for a better all-around effect system. The returners FFRPG system for example suffered from old FF logic: status effects are things that happen to you, NOT to monsters. Save the occasional "secret specific one-effect trick to this one boss/notorious" bosses were just immune, and regular randoms would shrug them off or have been taken down in a single strike anyways so why did you waste time?

I very well recall a 60 level campaign, where we played from 1st. As a paladin my basic special move gained early was an AoE 75% with silence. This was pretty much forever my opener, and always gave us a very critical piece of information; it was a given things would be immune to anything related to gravity or death [automatically if notorious or above, but otherwise they were either oneshottable normally or immune as well just because] but this let us find out if the seal category [mute, blind, etc] was out as well.

Barring mindless berserking beasts that neither speak nor cast, in hundreds of battles, I can count the times something was silenced in a useful fashion on one hand. And not the one with all its fingers. ONE dude out of a 3-4-targets type boss battle and a handful of rarely encountered mooks we fought maybe twice. That's it.

I'd actually like to see some use out of status effects, especially for things like Blue mages, who lose a good half or more of the value of their abilities when everything just laughs it off.

[elmerg]

A few things that came up in our Saturday game last week...

Does anyone else think the Blind condition is overpowered as is? Removing an entire d6 from your attack rolls sounds easy and nifty but one of my players mentioned that it seemed harsh, stating that the bell curve of 7 with 2d6 completely gets destroyed with that and you lose the ability to crit. He even mentioned that if a single roll of 6 on the d6 resulted in an auto-hit (which with the rules as written we don't believe it does) then probability was then skewed in the players favor and it was actually beneficial to be Blinded. He suggested that instead of removing an entire d6 just have a penalty to hit like -2 or -4. Still results in misses but you can still crit and get lucky shots off.


That seems reasonable; I've seen Blind at work in my Friday night game, and it's pretty powerful. I was going to test it based on halving basic Accuracy (Job Bonus + Attribute Rating; again, anything I talk about is based on the 5-stat version, as I don't like having POW be the basis for ALL damage), but not removing the d6 due to the crit thing (as it stands, I'll always consider a crit an automatic hit as well as any other properties that activate on a Criti.) When I run some numbers I'll post my results here and see how they work.



Poison also came up as being very unforgiving as well, especially to a low leveled party who only has access to potions that heal 25% HP where poison saps 20% every turn on top of possible monster damage. We thought that having poison only deal 10% HP damage every round for an entire combat (unless cured) could potentially be a problem for longer fights but more forgiving than the 80% HP damage over 4 rounds that the current system uses.


Switch it back to 10% of maximum HP, but limit it to 4 rounds. Bio, as it stands, inflicts the 'all combat' Poison, which really should be renamed something else (I like Virus, from FFIX, as a name, even though that's not ACTUALLY what Virus does).



In general I'm removing the Destiny Point requirement from Abilities. Just don't like it. Changing them to once per day powers so we'll see how that turns out. My group is still having a blast with the system and we're all looking foreword to next weeks session. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah; for myself, I'm unhinging Destiny from everything except for a Job's Epic Ability. The reason for this is, for my rewrites (yeah, I'm doing a homebrew of a homebrew!), I'm treating them as if they were the 'One Hour' Abilities, per FFXI; as such, I need some sort of method for their activation other than 'once per day'.

Examples:


A White Mage uses Benediction, which heals a party member to Max HP, half MP and removes all but the most powerful status effects. The White Mage spends 1+ Destiny, where each Destiny is a target of Benediction (so for 3 party members, a WHM would spend 3 Destiny).
A Ranger uses Barrage, which allows them an extra Standard Attack per Destiny spent (to a maximum of 4).
A Warrior uses Mighty Strikes, which makes then next <Destiny spent> Standard Attacks auto-crit as long as they actually hit from a normal Attack Roll.
A RedM Mage uses Spellburst, which works like Barrage but only for spells (you pay the highest MP cost, as well), to a maximum of 4.


Though after I typed all that up, I suppose I -COULD- have them be Once Per Day and give the # of attacks/targets/etc. limitations as mechanics.

I've actually been looking at renaming it; friends of mine have me reading through Fate and related games where narrative is extremely important, and I might pare some ideas from that to give players a bit more narrative control, as well as ramp up how often players get Destiny. Assuming I don't rip it out entirely, or vamp it up with things like stunts (if you're not familiar with Scion or Exalted, stunts are essentially bonuses given for doing cool stuff, which should be a part of this system).

[Surrealistik]

Why all the noise about Blind and Poison?

Neither has anything on Confuse, which is of the same tier and averages out to you get to do **** all.

[elmerg]

Why all the noise about Blind and Poison?

Neither has anything on Confuse, which is of the same tier and averages out to you get to do **** all.

My personal experience with Confuse was that it lasted for all of two rounds; the party futzed around for the first round and got whacked by the Engineer, then hit it with the Choco Esuna the next round to fix it. Granted, they lucked out that they already had the Chocobo summon out, but... I don't forsee it as overpowered if it lasts for 4 rounds, and the PC has their fair chance to act normally on the die roll.

[Surrealistik]

My personal experience with Confuse was that it lasted for all of two rounds; the party futzed around for the first round and got whacked by the Engineer, then hit it with the Choco Esuna the next round to fix it. Granted, they lucked out that they already had the Chocobo summon out, but... I don't forsee it as overpowered if it lasts for 4 rounds, and the PC has their fair chance to act normally on the die roll.

I'm not sure the gravity of Confuse is fully appreciated.

It effectively nets to you not being able to do anything between a 33% chance of being commandeered by the DM to attack the party, a 33% chance of doing nothing, and a 33% chance of acting normally. Given that PCs are glass cannons vis a vis the generally more durable monsters, this actually is worse than netting to doing nothing: an optimized, enemy controlled PC can wipe a party, easy.

Why bring up Choco-Esuna? It works on Blind just as well; I'm not sure I see how this anecdote in any way diminishes/casts doubt on the power of Confuse.

The fact is that it's a far more devastating status condition if the monsters aren't retarded and don't damage the ally subject to it.

[Kiton]

Would Fate-Point style destiny perhaps work better? Would need each class to have a way to 'burn' them permanently, which only a few right now have.

Basically, for every destiny point you've gained, you can 'spend' it to gain destiny point abilities. Like barrage's extra attack, avoiding a point of paradox or whatever.

The points return, say, the next time you sleep at an inn instead of just a tent/cottage. When there's any downtime, basically.

The big expensive changes outright burn a destiny point permanently. Getting that +1 to a stat, or binding yourself to a summon for the boon, so on and so forth. You lose it but gain something significant in return.

This way they can stay rarely handed out, which is often better for the players than "well you're supposed to get them often but I don't think this encounter/monster was significant enough" 'fast'-destiny-gains. But without screwing you; you'll start with none but slowly build up to a handful as the campaign goes on.

Fighter innate is of course changed: They have a destiny point that can't be burned, giving them one more than others in the party for combat/recharge purposes.

[elmerg]

Would Fate-Point style destiny perhaps work better? Would need each class to have a way to 'burn' them permanently, which only a few right now have.

Basically, for every destiny point you've gained, you can 'spend' it to gain destiny point abilities. Like barrage's extra attack, avoiding a point of paradox or whatever.

The points return, say, the next time you sleep at an inn instead of just a tent/cottage. When there's any downtime, basically.

The big expensive changes outright burn a destiny point permanently. Getting that +1 to a stat, or binding yourself to a summon for the boon, so on and so forth. You lose it but gain something significant in return.

This way they can stay rarely handed out, which is often better for the players than "well you're supposed to get them often but I don't think this encounter/monster was significant enough" 'fast'-destiny-gains. But without screwing you; you'll start with none but slowly build up to a handful as the campaign goes on.

Fighter innate is of course changed: They have a destiny point that can't be burned, giving them one more than others in the party for combat/recharge purposes.

This is a pretty good way to do what I was thinking about re: Epic Abilities, and also gives a way to 'charge up' to a point where you can use Barrage for 4 extra shots, or Benediction to heal 3 or 4 allies. If you don't mind, I think I'll make some extra notation on that to come up with 'permanent burn' uses? Something like, to give a mage example, 'Gain a spell from a Tier equal to the Destiny permanently spent; you must already qualify for the spell in question to utilize this feature'.

On the Warrior innate, I never really understood why their innate was just 'extra Destiny'. It's cool, but there's a lot more stuff that could be done with it that adds to the WAR's offensive capability. Breaks, multi-target attacks, and such things.



I'm not sure the gravity of Confuse is fully appreciated.

It effectively nets to you not being able to do anything between a 33% chance of being commandeered by the DM to attack the party, a 33% chance of doing nothing, and a 33% chance of acting normally. Given that PCs are glass cannons vis a vis the generally more durable monsters, this actually is worse than netting to doing nothing: an optimized, enemy controlled PC can wipe a party, easy.

Why bring up Choco-Esuna? It works on Blind just as well; I'm not sure I see how this anecdote in any way diminishes/casts doubt on the power of Confuse.

The fact is that it's a far more devastating status condition if the monsters aren't retarded and don't damage the ally subject to it.

I understand that it's a powerful Status Effect. It is in the games too, which is why a lot of times it's decently rare (Charm is a worse offender, as it's 'always attack your allies' and I recall being Charmed a lot more than being Confused in my last playthrough of FFIV.) I do agree that something could be done to make Confuse a bit better; perhaps your 'Check Ends' mechanic is a viable methodology for most of those really powerful debuffs like Confuse, Charm and some others. That would add some better resistance to it, and also fit the in-character rationality of fighting off the befuddlement.

[ThreadOfFate]

Also, Confuse was errata'd officially. Check the first post. It now has a 50% chance of acting normally, a 33% chance of having you do nothing, and 16.67% chance of making you act for the enemy team.

[Surrealistik]

Where's this errata?

In the 1.3 PDF, it's still 33/33/33.

[elmerg]

Where's this errata?

In the 1.3 PDF, it's still 33/33/33.

First page of the thread, apparently, there's a spoiler box that has that piece of errata in it. I didn't see it either.

[elmerg]

So I did some rambling writing in a GoogleDoc about my potential revisions for FFd6.

If you look, cool. If not, cool. I just figured I'd post it here to get some general feedback (and perhaps, if enough feedback, start a new thread about the revisions I plan).

http://tinyurl.com/ffd6r

[ThreadOfFate]

So I did some rambling writing in a GoogleDoc about my potential revisions for FFd6.

If you look, cool. If not, cool. I just figured I'd post it here to get some general feedback (and perhaps, if enough feedback, start a new thread about the revisions I plan).

http://tinyurl.com/ffd6r

Make it public so anyone with the link can see it. It has me asking for permission.

[elmerg]

Make it public so anyone with the link can see it. It has me asking for permission.

Whoops. Guess it didn't take the first time I did it.

Should be good now. I signed out of mine and clicked it and it opened fine.

[Sparx MacGyver]

So I did some rambling writing in a GoogleDoc about my potential revisions for FFd6.

If you look, cool. If not, cool. I just figured I'd post it here to get some general feedback (and perhaps, if enough feedback, start a new thread about the revisions I plan).

http://tinyurl.com/ffd6r

Reading through that, it looks some good ideas going into it. Personally, I like the 5 stat better, with the 5th being magic power, or the magic damage stat, if you will. As for Time Mage, if you can't save him, why not change'em to be a Summoner? I think that's one of the ones we're missing. Leave time Magic as it is, and make it an ability tat a player has to take to get. This allows for greater rp, as they need to search of that info, or an elder/master/what have you to teach them. Plus, that now means their spells list must be split between more magic types and it eats up an ability slot.

[elmerg]

Reading through that, it looks some good ideas going into it. Personally, I like the 5 stat better, with the 5th being magic power, or the magic damage stat, if you will. As for Time Mage, if you can't save him, why not change'em to be a Summoner? I think that's one of the ones we're missing. Leave time Magic as it is, and make it an ability tat a player has to take to get. This allows for greater rp, as they need to search of that info, or an elder/master/what have you to teach them. Plus, that now means their spells list must be split between more magic types and it eats up an ability slot.

My stat layout currently is Strength (Physical damage; used for checks), Dexterity (factors into Accuracy), Vitality (HP and some Status Resistance), Magic (Magical damage) and Spirit (Healing restoration, some Status Resistance).

I'd already considered adding in a Summoner class, with options for 'field nuke' summons as well as X and beyond-style 'replaces the caster' summons. As far as splitting up Time Magic into the other schools, it wouldn't be hard; I'd be pulling out some of the odd damage dealing time spells like Burn Ray (which IIRC was a Blue Magic in one of the games anyway) and putting most of the status/utility spells into White and Black. I'll take having it be an extra Ability under consideration though!

[Sparx MacGyver]

While I haven't posted anything regarding my own homebrew (seems to be a theme here, lol), what do you guys think about changing skills from force/finesse to stat based? YA know, get a bonus to say, athletics from Dex.

I would use the below attribute bonus system. This way, there is a minor boost, but it's nothing huge, and at most, players will get maybe an additional 3 to a skill. I would also upgrade the challenges to being harder, but that's someting I'm already going to do anyway, especially for synthesis.

Attribute Score Bonus
1 0
2 0
3 1
4 1
5 1
6 2
7 2
8 2
9 3
10 3
11 3
12 4
13 4
14 4
15 5
16 5
17 5
18 6
19 6
20 6
21 7
22 7
23 7
24 8
25 8
26 8
27 9
28 9
29 9
30 10
Etc... Etc...


Edit: format isn't working. OK, well, the first number is the attribute, the second is bonus, so if it's 1 then the bonus is 0 and so on.

[Temotei]

A table would look like this:

{table=head]Attribute|Score Bonus
1|0
2|0
3|1
4|1
5|1
6|2
7|2
8|2
9|3
10|3
11|3
12|4
13|4
14|4
15|5
16|5
17|5
18|6
19|6
20|6
21|7
22|7
23|7
24|8
25|8
26|8
27|9
28|9
29|9
30|10[/table]

As a note, this is basically what attribute ratings did in the first version of FFd6. Why not just look at ratings and use those for bonuses?

[elmerg]

While I haven't posted anything regarding my own homebrew (seems to be a theme here, lol), what do you guys think about changing skills from force/finesse to stat based? YA know, get a bonus to say, athletics from Dex.

<snip>

Edit: format isn't working. OK, well, the first number is the attribute, the second is bonus, so if it's 1 then the bonus is 0 and so on.

I had been toying with making it 1/3 of a related Attribute in my homebrew, or doing it like 4e and having skills automatically be based off of 1/3 Level with a 'Job Skills' option that would give a persistent bonus to particular Skills.

I had also been thinking about reworking the skills list to be more explanatory at a glance; replacing Inquiry with Investigation, adding in Streetwise, changing a few around.

[squiggit]

The idea of stat based skills could work. The downside here though is that it'd be pretty unbalanced: Most skills as written come across as DEX or MND based (using the default stats). S'why in my games I've been having the players use a level/2 + 3 skill cap regardless of stats and simply having finesse


I had also been thinking about reworking the skills list to be more explanatory at a glance; replacing Inquiry with Investigation, adding in Streetwise, changing a few around.

The former sounds good (I assume Dust's intention is that 'awareness' takes all the search/investigating aspects while inquiry/negotiation takes the talking parts of it, but I'm not sure that works as well).

Personally I've always kind of hated streetwise though. Feels like a cheap way to just pull free information out of your ass. Whenever I've run games I've usually kept it to a bare minimum (giving players general ideas or hints on what's what) then forced them to bribe/negotiate/search/intimidate/etc. for anything with substance.

[elmerg]

The idea of stat based skills could work. The downside here though is that it'd be pretty unbalanced: Most skills as written come across as DEX or MND based (using the default stats). S'why in my games I've been having the players use a level/2 + 3 skill cap regardless of stats and simply having finesse



The former sounds good (I assume Dust's intention is that 'awareness' takes all the search/investigating aspects while inquiry/negotiation takes the talking parts of it, but I'm not sure that works as well).

Personally I've always kind of hated streetwise though. Feels like a cheap way to just pull free information out of your ass. Whenever I've run games I've usually kept it to a bare minimum (giving players general ideas or hints on what's what) then forced them to bribe/negotiate/search/intimidate/etc. for anything with substance.

To me, there's a clear difference (I guess mostly due to running a lot of WoD).

Awareness is like perception; the things going on around you at the moment.
Investigation is strict searching with a focus on details and digging through things like books, scrolls and actual, readable or searchable stuff.
Streetwise is more about knowing and finding lower-level things; where the thugs go, what pubs are seedy, what areas are rife with thieves.

Things like that. Streetwise can be entirely justified by a concept.

[squiggit]

To me, there's a clear difference (I guess mostly due to running a lot of WoD).

Awareness is like perception; the things going on around you at the moment.
Investigation is strict searching with a focus on details and digging through things like books, scrolls and actual, readable or searchable stuff.
Oh I realize there's a difference, I'm just trying to guess at Dust's intentions here since paring down skills into broader concepts seems to be a commonality here.


Streetwise is more about knowing and finding lower-level things; where the thugs go, what pubs are seedy, what areas are rife with thieves.

Things like that. Streetwise can be entirely justified by a concept.
Oh. I know how it works and why it works, I just find a lot of books tend to treat it more like some form of localized omniscience.. while I try to treat it as sort of a mix of a knowledge and perception check.

Admittedly it might just be the players I DM for... they tend to be the type who like to exploit things as much as possible.

[elmerg]

Oh I realize there's a difference, I'm just trying to guess at Dust's intentions here since paring down skills into broader concepts seems to be a commonality here.


Oh. I know how it works and why it works, I just find a lot of books tend to treat it more like some form of localized omniscience.. while I try to treat it as sort of a mix of a knowledge and perception check.

Admittedly it might just be the players I DM for... they tend to be the type who like to exploit things as much as possible.

Yeah; if a player wants to 'read' something a certain way, they're going to read it that way no matter what.

[Another_Poet]

Hi everyone. I'm thinking of GMing this and I have some questions for you :smallsmile:

First, I've read through the .pdf but not the 45 pages of discussion. So I apologize if I ask stuff that has already been covered.

I've only run one FF tabletop game before, using ZODIAC. We found that system lackluster, especially the combat. Final Fantasy d6 looks like a great system, my favorite of any FF system I've seen. (Thanks for making it, Dust!)

My big question is, how many of you here have actually run games using it? How many became longer campaigns?

What were your experiences that I should know about - what worked well and what do I need to look out for? I'd like to create a long-running PbP using this system...

[Temotei]

Hi everyone. I'm thinking of GMing this and I have some questions for you :smallsmile:

First, I've read through the .pdf but not the 45 pages of discussion. So I apologize if I ask stuff that has already been covered.

I've only run one FF tabletop game before, using ZODIAC. We found that system lackluster, especially the combat. Final Fantasy d6 looks like a great system, my favorite of any FF system I've seen. (Thanks for making it, Dust!)

My big question is, how many of you here have actually run games using it? How many became longer campaigns?

What were your experiences that I should know about - what worked well and what do I need to look out for? I'd like to create a long-running PbP using this system...

I haven't run a game of it, but I've played in two PbPs with the old system. I think they would have gone fine if we had more time on our hands (or, rather, our GM had more time). It was pretty fun. I think one of the main things you should lay out is the level of grit you want in your game. Ask your players about it and such. Do you want a dark knight struggling with not chopping everyone's heads off as trophies and a monk who punches holes through people's chests to eat their hearts or do you want a more standard Final Fantasy feel with "Oh, their hp hit 0! Whoo!" You can find anywhere in between, too, obviously. Figuring that out before people make their characters will solve a lot of problems--especially if you haven't played together before.

Secondly, get to house rules very quickly. Outlining what you're changing in the system before people make characters avoids the awkward "But you just nerfed my character" scenario. A lot of players will take that graciously and just change it, but some won't. Better to nip that in the bud.

Third, keep your players relatively in line with each other. If the general power disparity in the group is large enough so that some feel useless, you might want to either talk to the power gamers and ask for them to play differently, change their job, or whatever, or you can just change the game before they get the chance to get to the really strong stuff. This hearkens back to my second paragraph. As a general rule, casters are stronger than combatants.

Lastly, have fun and let your players have fun. That's what the game is all about, after all. Every once in a while, ask if everyone is having fun, if they have questions, if they're having problems with the system or anything in your game, etc. A good GM will relate to the players and be ready to change things to make the game more fun for everyone.

Hope this helps. Our campaigns were run starting in an arena we were captured for (sort of like a Roman colosseum deal) and in Spira (I think after the big blitzball tournament in Luca, but I could be wrong about that part.).

[NyttyN]

Hi, me and my game group got into a debate about if the Time Mage Limit Ability Catastrophe does or does not cause damage to the surrounding terrain permanantly - some argued that it was in the description, but others argued the description was simply fluff. Tried contacting Dust for a verdict but they don't seem to be responding to PMs - could someone weigh in on this please?

[Sparx MacGyver]

Since using Catastrophe often causes massive and irreversible damage to the local terrain..
I would say that right there is no fluff, and would likely devastate the terrain. At least, that seems the intent to me.

[Zinoph]

Hi everyone. I'm thinking of GMing this and I have some questions for you :smallsmile:

First, I've read through the .pdf but not the 45 pages of discussion. So I apologize if I ask stuff that has already been covered.

I've only run one FF tabletop game before, using ZODIAC. We found that system lackluster, especially the combat. Final Fantasy d6 looks like a great system, my favorite of any FF system I've seen. (Thanks for making it, Dust!)

My big question is, how many of you here have actually run games using it? How many became longer campaigns?

What were your experiences that I should know about - what worked well and what do I need to look out for? I'd like to create a long-running PbP using this system...

Well I've been running the game for a few months now for a group of four. A few things I've noticed is that level one characters are very fragile. Once they get to level two it gets a little better, and once they get access to tier 2 equipment their survivability jumps.

I've experienced problems with the Destiny mechanics as written (just look a page or two back and you'll see some discussions on that) and so I removed it from many player abilities. If you have a summoner in the group I suggest giving them "summoning points" to replace the Destiny cost or your summoner will rarely summon (which is a shame, I haven't found the level one summons to be THAT overpowered).

I would also recommend you look at the front page since there is some errata there that I found useful.

[Zinoph]

Just noticed while making monsters for my session tonight that it doesn't appear to be a way to make a monster attack that can "leech" health. Anybody else run across that or am I not combining the right abilities?

[Sparx MacGyver]

Just noticed while making monsters for my session tonight that it doesn't appear to be a way to make a monster attack that can "leech" health. Anybody else run across that or am I not combining the right abilities?

I don't remember if there is one (can't remember and the pdf are on my netbook and I don't feel like getting it out), however, you could give the attack 'HP Steal' - Where if the attack is successful, it steal anywhere between 1/4 - full damage and takes that HP from the character and gives it to the monster. This can also be done with mp.

[Aniseed]

I've experienced problems with the Destiny mechanics as written (just look a page or two back and you'll see some discussions on that) and so I removed it from many player abilities. If you have a summoner in the group I suggest giving them "summoning points" to replace the Destiny cost or your summoner will rarely summon (which is a shame, I haven't found the level one summons to be THAT overpowered).


The way destiny works (basically useless except for switching jobs or Stronger Together, since permanent benefit for a scarce resource > short-lived benefit for a scarce resource) is definitely A Thing that needs to be addressed. The game I'm currently in gives each player a phantom destiny point per session - having a temporary resource that always comes back is very good for encouraging people to, y'know, actually use it for interesting things. I'd actually suggest doing something similar (scaled to your group's power level, of course) instead of removing destiny costs, since that doesn't really solve either the destiny point issue or add a balancing factor on powerful attacks.

That being said keep in mind that (for the level 1 summon at least) fulfilling the terms of a summon's pact will let the summoner call them for free.

[Kiton]

Here's my [Unoriginal Work; it ain't stealin] suggestion regarding Destiny Points.
Everyone starts at 1[I guess someone could forget the quote/story bit and be at 0 but when's the last time that happened?]

Destiny points are gained after boss battles and so on. No different here, but giving slightly better guidelines to ensure more even distribution as opposed to particularly generous or non-generous gm's. You should have about 5-6 gained total by endgame, with 1-3 of these burnt out to power permanent upgrades.

Destiny Points can be 'Used' once per session each, within reason: If you stopped mid-dungeon to split it into two short sessions, they're where they were. If you play seven hour sessions once a week, somewhere around the middle if the party gets themselves a chance to cottage or spend a night at an inn, recharge there.

What using them lets you do is all the temporary stuff. Avoiding a point of paradox, powering the various destiny-spending abilities, calling in a summon and so on.

Permanent upgrades, which every job should have one or two of [preferably non-reusable and either all party-buffing or all solo-only, unlike the disparity between whitemage/darkknight for example], permanently use cost you one or two of the things. Casting even Ultima is no reason to burn out your plot-gained points, but should certainly use a handful. Likewise, one-shot with permanent burn oughta limit your ability to abuse of "killing blow ups stats permanently".

Costs of course need adjusting; a job change should need a full stack of destiny expended, but probably shouldn't burn them out.

Cheating death of course burns one out permanently... or perhaps more? And of course the fighter innate, if it stays the same, just gives you an extra 'use' per session.

In other words, given their uses and potential, they'd be similar to action-dice in fantasycraft, or fate points in the 40k RPGs.

[Moriyosi]

Hey, guys. I just found out about this system earlier today, and have had a chance to browse through the v1.3 PDF. From what I've seen, Dust has put together a nice product, and I really like what she's done with the original artwork. It definitely makes things 'pop' a bit more, and does a nice job of conveying the flavor and setting.

That said: Dust, could you please credit the Returners FFRPG development team for the text and concepts you've taken verbatim from the 3E rulebook? As one of that game's former lead developers and the person who actually wrote a lot of that material, it was extremely disappointing to see big chunks of it pop up unattributed in somebody else's project, especially since you've put so much effort into everything else. I realize FFRPG d6 started life as a 3E conversion, but neither the introduction nor the credits really make it clear that there are still actual pieces of the 3E rulebook in the final product.

To make it clear, I don't have a fundamental problem with you using our text - heck, one of the ideas we were kicking around during 3E's development process was taking a leaf from the d20 OGL and allowing people to take portions of the FFRPG to power their own tabletop projects. But in the interests of creative fairness, I'd kindly request that you add a disclaimer on the credits page; something along the lines of "Portions of this rulebook use text and concepts from the Third Edition of the Returners Final Fantasy RPG".

[Lore232]

can't seem to download the book:smallfrown:

[ThreadOfFate]

can't seem to download the book:smallfrown:

I'm not having any problems, but you can grab it from my personal Dropbox, if you wish: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2954274/FFd6_v1.3.pdf

[Zinoph]

So this situation came up in tonight's session. We have a player who can summon Siren. Now Siren has the abilities Counterattack (50%) and Magic Counterattack (50%) but she doesn't have any physical attacks to physically counter attack WITH. Is there a way to calculate a basic physical attack for a summon or is she suppose to counterattack both magic and physical attacks with her magic spells?

[Zinoph]

I don't remember if there is one (can't remember and the pdf are on my netbook and I don't feel like getting it out), however, you could give the attack 'HP Steal' - Where if the attack is successful, it steal anywhere between 1/4 - full damage and takes that HP from the character and gives it to the monster. This can also be done with mp.

Sorry it took a while to reply to, but while a leech/sap ability is easy to make in theory my problem is how would I determine how many points its worth when building a monster's attacks? Would it be a 3 point ability? A 5? That's my biggest sticking point.

[ThreadOfFate]

So this situation came up in tonight's session. We have a player who can summon Siren. Now Siren has the abilities Counterattack (50%) and Magic Counterattack (50%) but she doesn't have any physical attacks to physically counter attack WITH. Is there a way to calculate a basic physical attack for a summon or is she suppose to counterattack both magic and physical attacks with her magic spells?

I'd say use the Lunatic Voice damage for physical counterattack and a spell of your choice (that she knows) for a magical counterattack.

[Dust]

I've asked this several times throughout the thread, but I always feel it's important to double-check before simply doing so.

Surrealistik - and all of the others who have posted their homebrew errata - please inform me if any of you would take offense to me making some of those changes canon in the pdf.

We're well on track for a (SEMI-FINAL?) release in mid to late August; just before FFXIV, as I predicted months and months ago. At the end of this month I'll be posting up a rather huge changelog and letting folks tear that apart, and then make a few more revisions in the weeks that follow.

As always, just because I'm not posting doesn't mean I'm not testing, reading and crunching numbers 'til my eyes bleed. I'm just one girl who's been doin' this for five long years, after all, and I wouldn't still be slogging away if it wasn't for both your support AND your constant suggestions and critiques.

[Surrealistik]

Sounds good Dust.

As I mentioned in my PM, I'm holding off on recommending further errata until I have a chance to go through the new version. You of course have permission to adopt anything you like from my design documents.

Overall I would prioritize ironing out the really broken and dysfunctional stuff first; a triage approach is best.

[ThreadOfFate]

Awesome to know a new release is coming!

I don't think I've posted any homebrew (except my sheets, but those don't really count), but I'd love to help out if I can with all this stuff.

[Temotei]

Dust, you've got my permission forever. :smalltongue:

Of course, I haven't made errata. Only homebrew. And it was made back in the day.

[Moriyosi]

I've asked this several times throughout the thread, but I always feel it's important to double-check before simply doing so.

Surrealistik - and all of the others who have posted their homebrew errata - please inform me if any of you would take offense to me making some of those changes canon in the pdf.

We're well on track for a (SEMI-FINAL?) release in mid to late August; just before FFXIV, as I predicted months and months ago. At the end of this month I'll be posting up a rather huge changelog and letting folks tear that apart, and then make a few more revisions in the weeks that follow.

As always, just because I'm not posting doesn't mean I'm not testing, reading and crunching numbers 'til my eyes bleed. I'm just one girl who's been doin' this for five long years, after all, and I wouldn't still be slogging away if it wasn't for both your support AND your constant suggestions and critiques.

Can you please confirm if you'll be fixing the credit issue in the next release? It'd be greatly appreciated.

[Dust]

Can you please confirm if you'll be fixing the credit issue in the next release? It'd be greatly appreciated.
The appreciation is all mine. I've already made the change for the next release, verbatim, and was happy to do so. Thanks for all your hard work back then.

[ThreadOfFate]

So this came up in the session last night:

When casting a spell that affects a Group, does it effect everyone on the playing field, or just those within a Medium Range of the caster?

In addition, can you selectively uninclude people from a Group when casting a spell?

[Sparx MacGyver]

So this came up in the session last night:

When casting a spell that affects a Group, does it effect everyone on the playing field, or just those within a Medium Range of the caster?

In addition, can you selectively uninclude people from a Group when casting a spell?

I've been using video game mechanics to fill in where the rpg come short. In this case, if targeting a group, I usually have the caster decide if they are going for opponents or pc's, if that makes sense.

[Moriyosi]

The appreciation is all mine. I've already made the change for the next release, verbatim, and was happy to do so. Thanks for all your hard work back then.

Thank you! Best of luck with FFd6 - I look forward to seeing what you do with the system in the next release.

[Kiton]

If any of what little I'd done or suggested on here or in pm can be of use, well, that's what it was suggested for. Ain't much, though, compared to most of the others I'd wager.

Definitely glad to know there's a new one coming out; after so much quiet for so long I was starting to worry there.

So obviously any remaining issues/snags/blanks you need help with we're all, uh, eyes. Or fingers if anyone has one of those snazzy braille screens.

[Temotei]

Or fingers if anyone has one of those snazzy braille screens.

:smalleek: *Looks it up*

That is so cool. Thanks for that.

[squiggit]

Some random thoughts:

-As written, using Shockwave's second attack (the PBAoE) clears all of a monk's chain points. This anti-synergy seems really frustrating to use, especially when monks already struggle so much with CP. Maybe tweak it to "attack none of the same enemies" rather than "attack any different enemy"

-For engineers, someone suggested to me for the edits I'm doing for my own campaign a "Demolitions Expert" ability that lets them calculate the damage with "Explosive" using DEX instead of PWR and allows them to use finesse to blow up objects instead of force. Sort of seems like a good idea to me given that the current design forces engineers to be very finesse heavy and it feels sort of awkward to think that they can't actually use their own bombs as effectively as the party warrior could!

-Again for engineers. Maybe I've just been playing too much GW2, but giving them shields seems like a nifty idea.

-Again again for engineers: Soul of Thamasa allowing Engineers (either passively or tied to the destiny boost) to apply spellbursts' of appropriate levels to gear? Again it always seemed sort of awkward that a mage essentially is a better crafter than the de-facto crafting class.

I actually want to do a lot more with engineers since I consider them one of the weakest classes in terms of design right now (along with dark knights)... they just have so little they can do in combat until they get clockwork tools... and even that's really just a series of free weapon properties they can apply with a few extra bonuses. Though speaking of clockwork tools, the destiny mechanic on that feels really bullocks. 1 destiny for +1 chance to crit?

Oh, also about engineers: I really love Val's tinkering mechanic he described a few pages back. Definitely adds a lot of fun and fluff to the class.

Still not sure what the priority rules on modified standard attack abilities (like haymaker and orlandeau's) with weapons that force a different damage stat (like ranged or arcane). I'd assume the ability takes precedence, but I've just noticed that certain abilities specifically seem to refer to themselves as normal attack actions with modified properties.

[zeugmatrograph]

New here, been running this system for a decent number of sessions. I kind of don't want to pick through this whole thread to see if whatever I'm about to say is redundant but:

-Entertainers going for a skillful hero build are pretty busted. Spending the 6 destiny to grab dual wielding from ninja means they can hit a 79 preform check at 15 (subtract 5 if you get the unique accessory), and at level 8 they can craft tier 6 items on a roll of 5.

-In general there's a lot of jank with crafting, components give increasingly variable amounts of effective wealth and it can be hard to reign in a party with good scavenge scores.

-Lots of inconsistencies with the pdf. A component that specifically gives skill bonus (any synth) when that's expressly forbidden elsewhere, and gemini implying that the default weapon property (reach/ranged/arcane/etc) doesn't count towards the property count on weapons.

-There's more, just nothing springs up, mostly all casters being forced to dip into red mage for charismagic because it's simply too good.

That said, I do like the system a lot, it's neat, functional, and pretty good for casual play, I just hope these issues get fixed in the next revision.

[elmerg]

So this came up in the session last night:

When casting a spell that affects a Group, does it effect everyone on the playing field, or just those within a Medium Range of the caster?

In addition, can you selectively uninclude people from a Group when casting a spell?

One thing I'm doing in my FFd6RE is to use separate terminology.


Self - Self-only.
Single - Single target, either one enemy or one Party Member.
Party - All Party Members and Guests.
Group - All enemies; Group includes any characters in 'Hostage' Status.
Field - All enemies and all Party Members


As for leaving out targets, that'd be up to you and your group. The instances of having enemies surrounding an ally, like say with Vivi in IX in one fight or Rinoa in FFVIII, you couldn't deselect only that person, so there's precedent for Group to target everyone in that 'group'.

[Kiton]

So... Anything still being done here, or needs to be laid out or answered?

[Temotei]

So... Anything still being done here, or needs to be laid out or answered?

Pretty sure Dust is just working on the next edition and some others are working on other homebrews for the system (which will likely be incorporated into the next version).

[Zinoph]

Pretty sure Dust is just working on the next edition and some others are working on other homebrews for the system (which will likely be incorporated into the next version).

That's right. But don't worry, I'm sure as soon as Dust posts her revision notes the forum will literally EXPLODE with activity. Right now is just the calm before the storm...

[Temotei]

That's right. But don't worry, I'm sure as soon as Dust posts her revision notes the forum will literally EXPLODE with activity. Right now is just the calm before the storm...

Aroo? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVRve3qlE48) :smallamused:

[aetherialDawn]

I was directed to this as 'Better Than Returners' recently.
I found that it is Better Than Returners, indeed. I'll be sure to look carefully at the set of changes coming, since there are few things I like better than tweaking and balancing settings and mechanics... :smallbiggrin:

[Relinara]

So uh... changelog at the end of july and update mid-late august, hm?

[ThreadOfFate]

So uh... changelog at the end of july and update mid-late august, hm?

Yes, heaven forbid the lead designer of this completely free and pretty decent quality game system have, you know, a real life that intervenes.

[Temotei]

So uh... changelog at the end of july and update mid-late august, hm?

Stuff happens. It was just an estimate, anyway.

[Relinara]

You two are really quick on the ball. Yes. I understand Dust has their own things to do, it's just sort of a shame how she's let the thread flounder since the start of the year, because the game is interesting and could be really awesome if it wasn't so caster-biased and breakable.

While we're all here I want to echo the sentiment that crafting on an engineer feels back when you know you can't properly utilize your own explosives and mages are better at crafting than you are because you can't craft spellburst.

On the topic of engineers, the engineering feat ingenuity reads oddly. The fluff talks about appropriate workspaces and the feat itself describes no longer taking synth penalties, but the book itself never really discusses the subject anywhere else.

Also slots suck really badly

Also blue mages need a better mp bonus

[ThreadOfFate]

Also slots suck really badly

Did you check the suggested fix for Slots earlier in the thread?

[Relinara]

Did you check the suggested fix for Slots earlier in the thread?

I did. It's pretty cool and I've been running it in my homebrew, along with some fixes to make limits more frequently usable and some nerfs to red and time bull****.

[Fearan]

While IRL distractions are, of course, understandable and respected, it would be nice to have at least estimate on new version release.

[Aramyth]

Hai hai! I just found out about FFd6, and was wondering, what are some actions I can take to make the game more balanced?

[Scow2]

I'm probably way late to the party... but I'm also of the opinion that Dragoons and Dark Knights should get access to shields - possibly by giving Dark Knights the ability to take the Shieldbearer class feature, instead of forcing everyone who wants to use a shield dip into White Mage - and flat doesn't make sense for a Dark Knight (And Dipping is PAINFUL in this system, costing more Destiny than anything short of cheating death).

While I saw the argument that "A famous Dragoon used Shields" try to be countered with "A famous Black Mage used a dagger" - there's a major weakness in that argument -
1. The black mage in question is a fan-created character for a noncanon twist on the original Final Fantasy.
2. any Black Mage can use a dagger simply by grabbing Weapon Training.
3. The Black mage was notoriously BAD with his dagger.

On the other hand:
1. The Dragoon in question is Kain Highwind, the first and most famous dragoon to see North American release. (Cecil, the Ur-Dark Knight also used a shield)
2. A Dragoon needs to spend one ability and waste six Destiny to grab Shield Bearer right now, and they get White Mage baggage to go along with it.
3. Going with my suggestion that Dark Knights get access to Shieldbearer as an alternative path to getting the ability than White Mage, it's not jarring to model Kain Highwind as having a bit of Dark Knight in him, given his association with Cecil, the Red Wings, and Dark Knights of Baron.

Warriors should probably have their HP bonus increased from 18 to 20, making them just a step below the Paladin's 22, and making them intuitive defensive powerhouses. Giving the Warrior more HP than the Dark Knight (And Geomancer) while giving all three Shields still shows that the latter trade defense for offense. Also, the Dark Knight is still killing itself with its attacks, shield or no.

As for concerns about the Dragoon - It's hard to hit, but it has very little HP for a front-liner due to MADness and its lowish base HP. A bit of extra defense wouldn't go amiss (Heavy armor isn't really better than medium or light). Most of its defenses are largely wasted when Jumping, as well - an attack that's not targetting you isn't being wasted.

I'm also of the opinion that Dragoons should be able to crit when Jumping (But not Limit Break). I saw your big concern was "Then why wouldn't the Dragoon make EVERY attack a jump?"
I have a few answers to that:
1. So it can recieve a targetted beneficial spell/consumable (Buff, demezz,
2. So it can soak attacks that would otherwise hit squishier party members - a jumping Dragoon is encouraging enemies to hit EVERYONE with Group attacks, can't benefit from Whirling Spear, and forces enemies to attack allies, who probably have lower damage reduction and AVD.
3. So it can use a Limit Break.
4. So it can use Deep Breathing to damage and debuff enemies.
5. It wants to use a Utility power, such as Ancient Circle, or cast a spell from a previous job.
6. It needs to deal damage NOW, instead of waiting a turn or two.

To fix the exploitability of Perma-jumping, I'd make Landing be a Standard, instead of Immediate, action? That way, the limited immunity and spike damage of Jump is offset by the loss of an action, and the Dragoon cannot take to the air immediately again. While I was seeing "Balance > Lore"... The issue here is " "Balance" > Lore AND Player Expectations AND Presentation AND AwesomeFun AND Synergy"

With that change, my question would become "Why shouldn't a Dragoon be using Jump whenever possible?" Jump is the Dragoons' big thing. The limited immunity isn't as great as it's chalked up to be - Group attacks can get around it. I think it was argued that you wanted Dragoons to be either DPS crit-fishers, or tanks. Jump doesn't work for either of those right now - it can't crit to be a Crit-fishing DPS, and it can't tank because the Dragoon cannot be attacked by anything that doesn't attack someone else. It MIGHT be an annoyance to brutes with its Threaten ability, but that's unreliable.

If the concern was that constant jumping would be boring/repetitive - I'm not sure how so, especially with how broad its options are - it can be used for mobility, spike damage, defense, or battlefield control.

With the suggested changes, the Dragoon would most intuitively play as a crazy-awesome Spike Damaging Speedster, meant to fight either on the front lines or even behind enemy lines, where the extra survivability from better access to shields is critical. What Dragoon WOULDN'T be using Jump to throw themselves into the middle of everything?

[zeugmatrograph]

Honestly shield and armor type should be fused. Give armors "weight", which determines their ratios of ARM to M.ARM, but then give them a potency which determines how much ARM and M.ARM they actually give each tier, then tie weight and potency to classes. This simulates shielded and non-shielded classes while not gimping anyone of a shield attribute.

[Ellas Aramond]

I've got a question for those of you that have experience with the current version. How long have you found battles with normal enemies last in real world time. I've had a couple with a party of four that were fighting 3 enemies the first time, and 4 the second time. It took a little over an hour both times and frustrated some of my players. This led me to wonder if this is normal, or if them or me was doing something wrong.

[squiggit]

I think you're underestimating the power of chain jumping. The idea that if you don't have regular access to group attacks or reactive damage the dragoon is essentially invincible is really, really strong and warps the way a GM has to design encounters to compensate. Especially if the dragoon dips white mage for something like Chivalry.

The idea I've been pushing is similar to your second one: Make Jump take a full action to land so you lose two turns activating it, but then not only allow it to crit, but make it hit harder than a regular attack.

This allows the dragoon's jump to be a good initiation and alpha strike maneuver without making pogo-sticking a problem, matching up with the player expectation of a big scary leap attack without causing as many technical issues.

I agree it's really bizarre that your grand "crash down from the sky on your enemy's face" attack is weaker than a normal swing.

While I don't really see shields as very dragoony or dark knighty in my mind... I do agree that they're kind of overly restrictive right now, especially when you look at how easy DW is to pick up (one feat or 6 destiny with no feat tax) and how insanely strong DW is.

Speaking of: I think the property count on weapons should go down a bit, especially at higher tiers and some of that should be shifted over toward armor. DW is just insanely strong because of the extra properties (8 at legendary!) you get to grab and at the same time it's not really fun having only one property slot on armor for most of the game.

[zeugmatrograph]

What's wrong with jump every turn? As it stands lots of classes just do one thing every turn. Pretty much every melee class just attacks every turn, maybe using their per-day or per-encounter job abilities if they become relevant. Hell even the mages don't have a terrible amount of diversity per combat, just spam out the most effective damage spell and heal/support when needed.

[squiggit]

I've got a question for those of you that have experience with the current version. How long have you found battles with normal enemies last in real world time. I've had a couple with a party of four that were fighting 3 enemies the first time, and 4 the second time. It took a little over an hour both times and frustrated some of my players. This led me to wonder if this is normal, or if them or me was doing something wrong.

What's your group comp and optimization level like? That sounds a little long to me but might be about right if your party isn't super strong.

Fiddling with monster HP or res values on your end shouldn't be too had though as a quick fix.


What's wrong with jump every turn?
It's (IMO) conceptually a bit silly pogo sticking on top of enemies every turn. More importantly it's mechanically problematic because it means the dragoon can't be killed if the enemies don't have access to a constant stream of group attacks (or counterattacks/thorns).

I do agree with the rest of your post though, active options for most classes are woefully lacking.

[Scow2]

I think you're underestimating the power of chain jumping. The idea that if you don't have regular access to group attacks or reactive damage the dragoon is essentially invincible is really, really strong and warps the way a GM has to design encounters to compensate. Especially if the dragoon dips white mage for something like Chivalry.

The idea I've been pushing is similar to your second one: Make Jump take a full action to land so you lose two turns activating it, but then not only allow it to crit, but make it hit harder than a regular attack.

This allows the dragoon's jump to be a good initiation and alpha strike maneuver without making pogo-sticking a problem, matching up with the player expectation of a big scary leap attack without causing as many technical issues.

I agree it's really bizarre that your grand "crash down from the sky on your enemy's face" attack is weaker than a normal swing.

While I don't really see shields as very dragoony or dark knighty in my mind... I do agree that they're kind of overly restrictive right now, especially when you look at how easy DW is to pick up (one feat or 6 destiny with no feat tax) and how insanely strong DW is.

Speaking of: I think the property count on weapons should go down a bit, especially at higher tiers and some of that should be shifted over toward armor. DW is just insanely strong because of the extra properties (8 at legendary!) you get to grab and at the same time it's not really fun having only one property slot on armor for most of the game. Looking at how Final Fantasy doesn't really use shields all that much, and Two-handing is considered a default for most... I'm starting to think the way damage currently has every weapon of the same tier do the same damage is a problem. This "Everything of the same tier is equal" is also a problem with the Armors, leading to the obsolescence of Heavy Armor because M.Arm is too valuable.

I'd change the tier damage of weapons so that one-handing weapons reduces damage a tie or halves it with a Tier 1 weapon, to at least somewhat reduce the value of Shields and Dual-wielding - and possibly swap the Ability values of Armor and Weapons - besides, Armor feels more "part of a person" than their weapon most of the time to me.


It's (IMO) conceptually a bit silly pogo sticking on top of enemies every turn. More importantly it's mechanically problematic because it means the dragoon can't be killed if the enemies don't have access to a constant stream of group attacks (or counterattacks/thorns).The way I read it, Jump requires you to move a Medium or Long distance, so you can't quite use it to Pogo-stick on the same enemy. And, although it's called "Jump", it's not pogo-sticking - it's flying into the air and across the battlefield in a crazy-awesome gravity-defying Dragon Flight attack. Would it be better that, if this game were to break from the game's presentation of Jump to reduce their immunity instead of reducing the Spike Damage? I think having Jump deter but not negate all attacks against them would keep the flavor and expectations, without being quite as game-breaking. In addition to having Landing take a standard instead of Immediate action (But they can take an immediate action after landing), preventing them from remaining constantly airborne even if they're constantly jumping.

Off the top of my head, I'd suggest something like +4 AVD against Targetted attacks on top of Flight's defensive bonuses, maybe override "Can't miss", and make Targetted spells should also have to roll-to-hit, if they don't already.

... now that I think about it, right now jump is an EXTREMELY good return-on-investment, because it condenses two standard actions into a slow one: A Standard Move and a Standard Attack, in addition to the defensive bonuses.

[squiggit]

Looking at how Final Fantasy doesn't really use shields all that much, and Two-handing is considered a default for most... I'm starting to think the way damage currently has every weapon of the same tier do the same damage is a problem. This "Everything of the same tier is equal" is also a problem with the Armors, leading to the obsolescence of Heavy Armor because M.Arm is too valuable.

I'd change the tier damage of weapons so that one-handing weapons reduces damage a tie or halves it with a Tier 1 weapon, to at least somewhat reduce the value of Shields and Dual-wielding
It's there because conceptually it's simple and gives players lots of freedom in creating their "own" weapons.

I do agree it's a problem though, because you get in these weird scenarios where a mage isn't necessarily any less powerful in a straight fight than a warrior because their weapon does the same damage and their armor simply has redistributed values and where "Handedness" doesn't matter because dual wield/shield usage is always going to be stronger than fighting any other way.


and possibly swap the Ability values of Armor and Weapons - besides, Armor feels more "part of a person" than their weapon most of the time to me.
Well that's sort of a character specific thing... but I sort of agree, maybe not switch entirely but at least rebalance it a little and rescale it entirely.

Actually I think it's a problem for other things than just armor. It's frustrating, for instance, that an alchemist is limited to one property per consumable until endgame (among other restrictions that combine to make consumable crafting really frustrating and limited only to pumping out massive amounts of potions and stat boosters instead of fun stuff for most of the game).


The way I read it, Jump requires you to move a Medium or Long distance, so you can't quite use it to Pogo-stick on the same enemy.
Well the move specifies that you can do it vertical or horizontal or both, which suggests that jumping up a "long" range but only moving a short/non range forward was perfectly valid.


And, although it's called "Jump", it's not pogo-sticking - it's flying into the air and across the battlefield in a crazy-awesome gravity-defying Dragon Flight attack. Would it be better that, if this game were to break from the game's presentation of Jump to reduce their immunity instead of reducing the Spike Damage? I think having Jump deter but not negate all attacks against them would keep the flavor and expectations, without being quite as game-breaking. In addition to having Landing take a standard instead of Immediate action (But they can take an immediate action after landing), preventing them from remaining constantly airborne even if they're constantly jumping.

Off the top of my head, I'd suggest something like +4 AVD against Targetted attacks on top of Flight's defensive bonuses, maybe override "Can't miss", and make Targetted spells should also have to roll-to-hit, if they don't already.

... now that I think about it, right now jump is an EXTREMELY good return-on-investment, because it condenses two standard actions into a slow one: A Standard Move and a Standard Attack, in addition to the defensive bonuses.

My thought on jump was this: You start it as a standard action, fly into the air, becoming immune to anything other than group attacks (maybe you could allow single target attacks that can reach you like a long ranged basic attack for instance? Maybe even medium ranged if you're jumping straight rather than up)... but instead of landing at the start of your next turn, getting an instant attack and then getting the rest of your turn to potentially jump again, you instead land at the end of your turn.

Then instead of the attack being weaker, you make it stronger (because from a fluff standpoint coming down on someone from the sky spear first should be scary) with some scaling mechanic for levels (something all damage step modifiers need IMO).

So basically Jump becomes a strong initiation and alpha strike tool, but you can't (and don't want to) follow it up with more jumps because it's a burst move with less DPR than fighting normally.

Which to me feels more in line with concept than a move that reduces your burst but keeps your average damage relatively the same and is spammable.

[zeugmatrograph]

Personal theory as to why there's been no posts. Dust and co. are busy incorporating job abilities from FFXIV into the system.

[zeugmatrograph]

Speaking of FFXIV, how about something like this for dragoons? It assumes Jump is changed to just move you around.

(forgive my horrible syntax, it's a rough idea)


Dive - While the dragoon has the effect of Flight or is jumping, you may chose to preform any of the below attacks as a standard action. If used from a Jump, the regular Jump "landing" is not preformed, with the Dive replacing it. After your dive, you lose the flight status, and do not gain flight from auto-flight items or equipment until the end of the next round.

Kain's Dive - The dragoon focuses on a single target, aiming a deadly blow to their weakest point. Choose an enemy within a short range of where you would land and make an attack against them as normal, except treat this attack as if it had a +1 critical rate (this stacks with other sources of + critical rate), and this attack ignores any penalties you would receive from an enemy's flight status.

Spineshatter Dive - The dragoon lands directly on top of a single enemy below them (Within a short range) and attempts to disable them by striking their spine, damaging them for (Force * Half Level) + 2d6, and inflicting the status effect Stun on a successful opposed roll.

Dragonfire Dive - The dragoon becomes a blazing inferno, striking her target area like a meteor, dealing (PWR + MND * Half Level) + 2d6 ARM Fire damage to all enemies in a short range (Group Short Range). You may chose to instead target ALL creatures in a local area instead, enemy or ally, dealing (PWR + MND * Level) + 2d6 damage instead if you do so, as well as causing the dragoon to take backlash damage equal to half the dive's attack power, as ARM damage.

[squiggit]

One thing that occurred to me is that it might be nice to create an entirely new third layer of customization for bestiary monsters. Things that let you make trade offs in the monster's stat block or add special conditions. Call then traits or something.
Stuff like, say, trading away avoidance for more armor or vice versa. Sacrificing MP or HP or damage for a boost somewhere else.

Or even weirder stuff like say "this creature deals an extra step of damage to poisoned targets" etc.

[Nasami]

Hey, I'm new to this, gonna run my first game with the system. I was wondering, is there any sort of Optional Rules or Classes people have made for this? Or a prebuilt beastiary?

[War Planets]

Hey, I'm new to this, gonna run my first game with the system. I was wondering, is there any sort of Optional Rules or Classes people have made for this? Or a prebuilt beastiary?

Welcome to the club comrade.

To answer your first question: Kinda but not really. Most of the ideas and suggestions from other players are between pages 34 and 46 (lots of random stuff tossed in there, sorry I can't narrow it down further).

ThreadOfFate made a REALLY cool character sheet with space for spell descriptions.
Player tested, Dust approved. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2954274/FF%20d6/FF%20d6%20Sheet.pdf)

To answer your second question, no. Sorry, but one has not been made. Dust is currently working on one if I recall correctly.
But IronJawbone made an insanely helpful monster maker.
Monster creator. (http://www.sendspace.com/file/59g9nk)

[ThreadOfFate]

Welcome to the club comrade.

To answer your first question: Kinda but not really. Most of the ideas and suggestions from other players are between pages 34 and 46 (lots of random stuff tossed in there, sorry I can't narrow it down further).

ThreadOfFate made a REALLY cool character sheet with space for spell descriptions.
Player tested, Dust approved. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2954274/FF%20d6/FF%20d6%20Sheet.pdf)

To answer your second question, no. Sorry, but one has not been made. Dust is currently working on one if I recall correctly.
But IronJawbone made an insanely helpful monster maker.
Monster creator. (http://www.sendspace.com/file/59g9nk)

Aww, stop, you'll make me blush.

Also check the front post of the thread for official errata.

[tristerfalm]

So I noticed looking through the forum, that people talk about Time Mages and Paradox, and spending Destiny to avoid Paradox, etc. but nowhere in the book does it talk about Paradox (in 1.3). I found an old copy of the rules, and it talks about Paradox there, but was this taken out for some reason that wasn't mentioned? I couldn't find a mentioned reason searching through every page in this thread. :\
- Tristan

[Nasami]

Are Huge weapons suppose to be two handed weapons or can they be used one handed with a shield? It just seems to throw off my image of them, when Fighters can pick up a shield and a two handed buster sword, and keep the tanky with the breaky.
What would be a reasonable compromise to making them two handed and should that apply to Lances/Spears?

[squiggit]

Are Huge weapons suppose to be two handed weapons or can they be used one handed with a shield? It just seems to throw off my image of them, when Fighters can pick up a shield and a two handed buster sword, and keep the tanky with the breaky.
What would be a reasonable compromise to making them two handed and should that apply to Lances/Spears?

There's no concept of "handedness" in this version of ffd6, there's simply no such thing as a one handed or two handed weapon in the first place. You can even dual wield weapons while using two handed grip with them!

If you were to make two handed weapons they'd need to be significantly more powerful to compensate for what you're giving up by not having an off-hand or shield.

Though the idea of wielding weapons larger than you should be able to or being so strong you wield a weapon one handed that anyone else would have to wield two handed aren't exactly new concepts in fantasy. Monkey grip in DnD or Titan's grip in 3.5 or any number of characters in FF too.

[Nasami]

Though the idea of wielding weapons larger than you should be able to or being so strong you wield a weapon one handed that anyone else would have to wield two handed aren't exactly new concepts in fantasy. Monkey grip in DnD or Titan's grip in 3.5 or any number of characters in FF too.
Monkey's Grip requires a feat to be able to do it and the PC still takes a -2 Penalty to hit while using the oversized weapon, to do it without penalty requires Wield Oversized Weapon which is an EPIC level feat.
Titan's Grip in WoW (Which I assume you're referring to, and the 3.5 is an error) is only available to the Fury Warrior at Level 38. It's pretty much a big part of the DPS Warrior tree.
In the FF section, Cloud himself uses his huge class weapon with two hands, and all other situations I can think of that involve a massive weapon like that, the weapon in question is used with two hands. The only exception off the top of my head is Gilgamesh, and all his weapons are forgeries anyways.

I mean, if this was a Warrior Ability, sure. I'd have no problem with it. But as it is, my entire brain is screaming at me that this is messed up and you shouldn't be using a huge weapon with one hand.

[Temotei]

Monkey's Grip requires a feat to be able to do it and the PC still takes a -2 Penalty to hit while using the oversized weapon, to do it without penalty requires Wield Oversized Weapon which is an EPIC level feat.
Titan's Grip in WoW (Which I assume you're referring to, and the 3.5 is an error) is only available to the Fury Warrior at Level 38. It's pretty much a big part of the DPS Warrior tree.
In the FF section, Cloud himself uses his huge class weapon with two hands, and all other situations I can think of that involve a massive weapon like that, the weapon in question is used with two hands. The only exception off the top of my head is Gilgamesh, and all his weapons are forgeries anyways.

I mean, if this was a Warrior Ability, sure. I'd have no problem with it. But as it is, my entire brain is screaming at me that this is messed up and you shouldn't be using a huge weapon with one hand.

*Shrug*

It's how it works.

[squiggit]

Monkey's Grip requires a feat to be able to do it and the PC still takes a -2 Penalty to hit while using the oversized weapon, to do it without penalty requires Wield Oversized Weapon which is an EPIC level feat.
Titan's Grip in WoW (Which I assume you're referring to, and the 3.5 is an error) is only available to the Fury Warrior at Level 38. It's pretty much a big part of the DPS Warrior tree.
In the FF section, Cloud himself uses his huge class weapon with two hands, and all other situations I can think of that involve a massive weapon like that, the weapon in question is used with two hands. The only exception off the top of my head is Gilgamesh, and all his weapons are forgeries anyways.

I mean, if this was a Warrior Ability, sure. I'd have no problem with it. But as it is, my entire brain is screaming at me that this is messed up and you shouldn't be using a huge weapon with one hand.
Yeah I meant wow, just still had DnD on the mind.

In any case those examples were just examples of the fluff behind the concept of wielding a large weapon one handed, the mechanics are besides the point, as TG in WoW and MG in DnD have mechanics tied to them for balance reasons, and such balance reasons don't exist in FF because there's no such class of weapon.

Mostly what I'm trying to say here is that there's no rule on two handed huge weapons because huge is, perhaps counter intuitively, not in any way related to handedness and if you did want to house-rule such a mechanic in you'd have to significantly change the way the huge property functioned (and by that I mean buff it through the roof to compete) as well as toy with the general rules of the game as the concept of handedness is purposefully ignored to try to give players more freedom in fluffing out their own gear.

[War Planets]

So, my campaign is building up to its climax and grand ending.
My biggest issue is that my players are not using their Limit Breaks.
The Monk sank most of his Destiny Points into cross-classing into Thief for Quick Hit and then into Samurai for Flawless Form then back into Monk, needless to say he is a tank that gains at least 3 Chain-Points a turn. Now any Destiny Points he gets goes into building up Final Heaven.
The Red Mage has done no Cross-Classing, because of a house rule, but still wont spend any Destiny Points for a Limit Break until he is fighting the Final Boss.
The other two members of my party are new to the Tabletop scene and like more storyline than combat.

Currently I have a house rule that decreases the Destiny cost of using a Limit Break by one Point for each Limit Break that is unlocked (ie. when a player has all three Limit Breaks the 1st costs 1 Point to use, the 2nd costs 2 Points, and the 3rd costs the normal 3 Points). Also, we aren't using Summons, because they are a Destiny Point pit for only 3 turns. (I have an idea for that which I posted within the last 10 pages, might incorporate into next campaign.)

I know that they can use their Limit Breaks for free when they roll a Critical and are below 25% Hp, but usually they either skip getting that low and go straight to unconscious or are not in that range long enough to roll a Critical before they are healed.

My overall point is: Has anyone tried a type of Meter System, like what is in most of the Final Fantasy games?
Let the Meter bar have 3 sections, and each full section subtracts 1 Destiny Point from the cost of their Limit Break; this in combination with the House Rule I mentioned above. Have different ways to build this Meter to fit the Player's play style, like in Final Fantasy X. What is required to fill the Meter varies: Take damage (points of Hp lost) equal to your max Hp per section; Deal damage (just damage, not the Hp the enemy loses) equal to 2 or 3 times your max Hp or Mp pending if it is Magical or Physical damage.

What do y'all think of the idea? Or do you have ideas of your own that could help?
I will probably incorporate this into my next FFd6 campaign, or just switch it into my current one.

-------Was primarily just rambling and used the forum to type out my thoughts, I think I answered my own question.

[DualShadow]

I tend to agree with War Planets, Destiny Points are not enough of a reliable ressource to make them power temporary stuff like Summons and Limit Breaks.

Sadly I can think of no quick fix.

[squiggit]

I was playing around with the idea of a limit meter for my next campaign but haven't gotten the numbers where I want them yet, same basic idea as WarPlanet's suggestion though.

No idea what to do with summons yet, but I've been trying to tackle that while homebrewing a summoner class.

[War Planets]

The idea I posted for Summoning used separate Summoning Points. A Player has a number of Summoning Points per level equal to 1/2 the Player's level, rounded up, they do not carry-over from one level to the next. For characters at level 15, they regenerate 1 Point per in-game day or are all restored after a Boss fight.

If you think that using Summons is a pain then you can double or triple a Player's number of Summoning Points per level and have the Esper come in and only use its Astral Flow.

Furthermore, if you do not like the idea of having another type of point pool to work with; you can just make them cost 25-50 MP (depending on how often you want them to be used) times the Espers Rank. This would make Rank 1 Espers available for use between levels 3 and 5. If a Player completes the Esper's Devotion requirements, then its MP cost is halved.
With your Summoner Job Class, you can just give it a big boost to MP if you like option 3 or if you prefer options 1 have the Summoner gain Summoning Points equal to its full level each level.

The idea of the Esper just using its Astral Flow and not sticking around to fight can be applied to both Option 1 and Option 3, if Option 3 then use the lower MP cost.



---Note for the future: anything and everything that I post on this forum that has to do with FFd6 is free game for anyone to use, and is available to Dust without the need for accreditation, it would be cool (just so I can say "Hey look, that's me!"), but not necessary.----It was mentioned a while ago and it is 2:30 am, so I figure I might as well and relinquish any imaginary 'rights' I could pretend to have to anything that I post.-----It's all Dust's, she can have it. My only desire is to help.

[elmerg]

I tend to agree with War Planets, Destiny Points are not enough of a reliable ressource to make them power temporary stuff like Summons and Limit Breaks.

Sadly I can think of no quick fix.

We've converted over to a 'temporary Destiny' that refreshes each session, with permanent going up at clearing goals and some other points. Destiny is spent to add dice to rolls, activate Limit Breaks/Job Epics, Blaze of Glory, gain access to a spell of your tier or lower for a combat, Cheat Death, and gain a spell of 1 tier higher than your level for a combat.

It has worked out nicely so far; it's giving us a more 'epic' feel to FFd6.

If I can ever get enough time and energy to continue with my FFd6 alterations, I'd planned on moving Destiny away from Limits and implement a gauge, with different 'Limit Modes' ala FFX's Overdrive Modes.

[Dhrall]

This might have already been answered somewhere in the thread but what's the interaction between Dark Knight Bad Blood and things like Last Resort and Darkside? Can you use them to stab yourself and heal?

[13Sins]

I was playing around with the idea of a limit meter for my next campaign but haven't gotten the numbers where I want them yet, same basic idea as WarPlanet's suggestion though.

No idea what to do with summons yet, but I've been trying to tackle that while homebrewing a summoner class.

How about a limit gauge that functions like this:

In order to fill the gauge once you need to heal/take/deal damage equal to: (1/2 * LVL) * 100
I would probably break the round down rule a bit here and round down to the nearest 0.5 instead of rounding down to the nearest 1.
No matter if you heal, take, or deal the damage that number all adds to the same gauge (so you could heal for 10, and then take 10 points of damage to gain 20 points for your gauge)
For multi-target (group, or local) situations, you do NOT multiply the damage done/healed by the number of targets. You gain limit points equal to the damage one of the targets takes/is healed for.
You may expend one filled limit gauge to turn a critical hit into a 1st tier limit break and ignore the requirements of using destiny points and/or being under 25% of your HP
You may simultaneously expend two filled limit gauges to turn a critical hit into a 2nd tier limit break and ignore the requirements of using destiny points and/or being under 25% of your HP
You may simultaneously expend three filled limit gauges to turn a critical hit into a 3rd tier limit break and ignore the requirements of using destiny points and/or being under 25% of your HP
In order to prevent people from stocking copious filled gauges (and attempting to limit break everything all the time) you can only stock a number of filled gauges equal to the number of limit breaks your character knows
Partially filled limit gauges do not empty/reset between combats. They reset either between game sessions, or some other prearranged situation setup by the DM (and potentially the players)


If you wanted to you could even take destiny points out of the equation entirely and say that you can expend a number of limit gauges to turn any standard attack into a limit break of the corresponding tier. In which case I would tag on the stipulation that you have to decide to do this before you roll, thus you do not always get max damage and it would be possible to miss.

[Angelalex242]

Long time FF fan, here...

Anyone actually running this system on Rpol?

I was part of one game called 'some of us have to work for a living', but that game was an old enough version to still have Orlandeau's strike, if that IDs the version for ya. (I was a Paladin, of course.)

[elmerg]

How about a limit gauge that functions like this:
<math and stuff>

If you wanted to you could even take destiny points out of the equation entirely and say that you can expend a number of limit gauges to turn any standard attack into a limit break of the corresponding tier. In which case I would tag on the stipulation that you have to decide to do this before you roll, thus you do not always get max damage and it would be possible to miss.

My one real complaint has always been 'turn a crit into a Limit Break'. And with the addition of a gauge, there's no real need to have that. When the gauges are full, just grant the option to use the Limit. Here's what I am doing in my FFd6RE homebrew that I'm FINALLY getting back to.

* Limit Gauge is a series of 15 'spheres' on the sheet, that are filled in based on your Level and Limit Modes (ala FFX). By default, your characters have a 'Stoic' Mode where you gain Limit by taking and dealing damage.
** In Stoic, taking a single hit increase the gauge by 1; dealing a single hit increases the gauge by 1; and dealing or taking a Critical Hit increases it by 3.
** In Saboteur mode, inflicting Negative Status Effects increases it by 1.
** In Healer mode, restoring the HP gauge increases it by 1 as a baseline.

And so on and so forth, with the capability to have three modes active by the time you hit Level 25 (my Revision assumes a 30-level game).

Your level determines how much of the Gauge is used at a time. At Level 1, using a Level 1 Break takes your entire gauge. At Level 15 (where you get Limit 2), using Limit 2 takes the entire Gauge and Limit 1 takes 10 'sections' of it. And at Level 25, when you get Limit 3, it becomes 5 for Limit 1; 10 for Limit 2; and all for Limit 3.

The extra limitation is that by the time you reach Lv. 25, your Tier 1 Limit Break is useful but not overpowering (in my revision, the options for a Tier 1 Limit are a lot fewer than for a Tier 3).

[Angelalex242]

Ya know...having read over things, I wonder if a couple genre appropriate classes might be added.

Notably:SOLDIER and SeeD.

In basic concept, SOLDIER would be about two things:Stat Boosts and Limit Breaks. To keep up with the sort of stunts we see in Advent Children, they need to also be highly mobile and able to cut easily through objects (even solid concrete). And bullet parry. That is, this is Cloud, Kadaj, Sephiroth, the character class. (as seen in AC, so we don't need to worry about Materia much. Kadaj uses it, Cloud and Seph have moved beyond it.)

SeeD, on the other hand, is about getting a Pact with an Esper automatically, and then the Esper fuels your abilities. SeeD only ever bond with one Esper, so something tricky has to be done to make sure they get balanced benefits from taking a Rank 1 Esper vs. taking a Rank 5 esper.

[elmerg]

Ya know...having read over things, I wonder if a couple genre appropriate classes might be added.

Notably:SOLDIER and SeeD.

In basic concept, SOLDIER would be about two things:Stat Boosts and Limit Breaks. To keep up with the sort of stunts we see in Advent Children, they need to also be highly mobile and able to cut easily through objects (even solid concrete). And bullet parry. That is, this is Cloud, Kadaj, Sephiroth, the character class. (as seen in AC, so we don't need to worry about Materia much. Kadaj uses it, Cloud and Seph have moved beyond it.)

SeeD, on the other hand, is about getting a Pact with an Esper automatically, and then the Esper fuels your abilities. SeeD only ever bond with one Esper, so something tricky has to be done to make sure they get balanced benefits from taking a Rank 1 Esper vs. taking a Rank 5 esper.

Personally, I don't think so, at least on those two. Those two things are more 'professions' in their games, which have no real division for Jobs (beyond the statistic predisposition for characters to be good at certain types of magic) and the predivided types of weapons.

To me, to represent a Job it has to have appeared in multiple games and have some defining features that are recognizable in any instance it has appeared (Paladin always has Cover and White Magic; Red Mage always casts two or three schools of magic; etc.) All of the stuff you mentioned about Cloud et al. doing in AC is covered by some of the secondary abilities like Defy Gravity and roleplay uses of powers (like using an Armor Break power outside of combat to cut through a wall) in the game, IMO.

The idea of a character who derives ALL of their power from a Summoned Beast is an interesting one, but as you say, it would be one of those things that is extraordinarily hard to balance.

[zeugmatrograph]

Has there been any word from Dust or the team? I'm interested in developing a fork, but I don't want to do that without permission or while development is still going because that's just a ****ty thing to do.

[elmerg]

Has there been any word from Dust or the team? I'm interested in developing a fork, but I don't want to do that without permission or while development is still going because that's just a ****ty thing to do.

Dust hasn't posted in a while, but fork away. The book itself is a derivative of another group's FF homebrew game, and Dust has stated multiple times that she doesn't have a problem with people homebrewing. It's why I'm working on a Revised Edition of it that's more 'rewrite' than 'revised' honestly.

[Angelalex242]

Well, yeah. It's a common joke that a SeeD can't use a can opener without their junctions.

Things like Draw are interesting mechanics too. "You can use any spell the monster possesses. You must pay MP for it as if you were casting it yourself."

This is less useful then it sounds, when the fire absorbing Bomb knows nothing but fire magic...

[Zinoph]

Ya know I kind of like the idea of having pips or circles as a less complicated way of tracking a limit gauge. It keeps with FFd6 trying to keep things simple so you don't have to keep track of all the individual damage taken or given. And maybe having summons just using MP instead of using an individual 'summon point pool' would be cool. I think that you might want a summoning class instead so that they could have a higher MP pool than other mages so they could actually cast a spell or two as well as summon. Hrrrm. Not sure, I'll have to think about that...

[Shinkirou]

I am probably going to use Elmerg's idea for limit breaks in the FFVI campaign I am planning.

With the customization it seems like they would be upset if they have bad luck and have to resort to spending destiny just to use them.

I am also making my own rules for Magicite (summons), and magic learning in a FFVI universe which use exp as magic points to learn magic (for all classes except blue mages who learn magic normally as well).

[Lorkhan]

I for one just instituted a distinction between 'Spending' and 'Burning' Destiny. Basically, anything that costs Destiny but has an effect lasting longer than a single Combat permanently burns a point of Destiny, otherwise the Destiny is only spent until the player gains a new level. Cheating Death and going for a Blaze of Glory also obviously Burn Destiny.

I also made it so one can Spend Destiny to use a single Summon Effect, or burn it to actually full-on Summon the critter. Overall it seems to be working~ My players horde their Destiny a lot less, and it actually even gets used to boost regular rolls.

[Relinara]

So my theory is that Dust either got abducted by aliens or the people behind the other returners knockoff have been trying to intimidate her into not doing anything else with the game since they hate her guts.

[Temotei]

So my theory is that Dust either got abducted by aliens or the people behind the other returners knockoff have been trying to intimidate her into not doing anything else with the game since they hate her guts.

:smallbiggrin:

But for real, probably just busy with life.

[elmerg]

So my theory is that Dust either got abducted by aliens or the people behind the other returners knockoff have been trying to intimidate her into not doing anything else with the game since they hate her guts.

Other Returners knockoff? You mean SeeD, the even WORSE as a tabletop FFRPG game?

[Relinara]

Other Returners knockoff? You mean SeeD, the even WORSE as a tabletop FFRPG game?
Well if you ask them ffd6 is the unloved bastard child that soils their legacy simply by existing (and did everything short of outright robbing 'their' game from them).


unrelated random thought: Outside T5 and a few specific exceptions a summon's basic abilities are relatively comparable in terms of damage output to spells of the same tier. Might be pretty easy to build an oldschool style summoner who casts them as spells.

[elmerg]

Well if you ask them ffd6 is the unloved bastard child that soils their legacy simply by existing (and did everything short of outright robbing 'their' game from them).


unrelated random thought: Outside T5 and a few specific exceptions a summon's basic abilities are relatively comparable in terms of damage output to spells of the same tier. Might be pretty easy to build an oldschool style summoner who casts them as spells.

I was once involved in the development of the Returners 2e game, years and years ago (possibly even before the split, it was the late 90s). The whole advancement into 'must have bots/coded calculators' to play the game' has always been an advancing problem that SeeD doesn't help.

I've thought before about doing an FF3-8-style summoner at some point along those lines, which isn't terrible to do. The Astral Flows themselves lend them to that, with a few tweaks.

[Lorkhan]

So just out of curiosity, how do people curb the horrible-broken-cheese that is Skillful Hero? I mean, it's too easy to get into a party arms-race with it considering that with the right Abilities it's hilariously overpowered.

A Thief with more than SHlv2 is practically guaranteed to steal whatever he wants barring a fumble.
An Entertainer can use Fashionable as an even better substitute, leading to making From The Heart even more insanely good.
Anyone with an Animal Companion is capable of just about hitting the Damage Limit with a bit of cheese.

I think, if my math works out, a Lv5 Entertainer with Skillful Hero Lv3 and an Animal Companion can deal almost 300 damage. Granted that's once a combat, but so are a lot of Abilities and they're nowhere near as effective.

Having what amounts to a squirrel fire off an attack that outclasses Ultima is a bit odd.

[Fearan]

Didn't quite get, how you abuse animal companion. Entertainer/skillful hero combo is powerful, yes, but me, personally never saw in as something broken.

[zeugmatrograph]

If you want to min-max it, if my math is right, an Entertainer at 15 with 3 Fashionable and 6 Skillful Hero can get up to a 24 raw preform stat, with +30 from 4 accessories, armor, and weapon (+25 if you use the dancer's legendary accessory), as well as +10 from food, and depending on how the GM rules it, +10 from consumables. This leaves you with +32 (+37 if using consumable) to any one stat for all party members, or +29 (+34 if using consumable) to any two stats.

Of course this takes into account all Tier 7. Let's see what the build can do at lower milestones.

At level 1 the Entertainer can have 10 preform, and 10 in any two synth they want (usually Accessory and Weapon), as well as 4 left over for Scavenge. This means they can start crafting T3 items as soon as they get the components/money without fail, and even higher if they want to risk a failure.

At level 5 the Entertainer has 14 preform (without boosts from items, and at least 20 with), and 15 in both synths, with 8 in scavenge. This allows the Entertainer to begin crafting T5 items without fail, as well as boosting their party member's favorite stats by 7-12. With T5 weapons, this boosts damage by 35-60. At level 5.

At level 10 the Entertainer takes her first rank of Fashionable. She has 20 unboosted preform, and 21 in her synth checks, making T6 impossible to fail and T7 easy to craft. In addition she has 10 scavenge, which isn't terribly impressive at this level, admittedly. With the components she's been able to scavenge up until now it's reasonable to assume she's begun to craft her +5 skill bonus equipment. Two accessories and one weapon with +5 Preform gives her a +15 to her base 20. She can use any leftover components to craft T7 weapons and sell them at half price so she can buy the rest of her set. The build is basically complete at this point, all that's left to do is wait on the other two Fashionable pickups and get her legendary accessory.

At level 10 she can start boosting her ally's stats by 20+, which at T7 weapons is 140+ damage. If a Black Mage takes Flare at level 10, the 20+ PWR boost translates into 240+ damage. A White Mage would gain 200+ MP from a MND boost, and 160+ healing boost with each Curaja. Alternatively everyone could choose to simply gain 200+ HP and simply never not care about doing increased damage, unless you have a party of blade wielders that is.

[Lorkhan]

Didn't quite get, how you abuse animal companion. Entertainer/skillful hero combo is powerful, yes, but me, personally never saw in as something broken.

An Animal Companion may, once a Combat, be commanded as a Standard Action to be 'Aggressive'. This deals 2d6+Nature(HighestAttribute) damage of either a non-Holy/Shadow Element, or Nonelemental, and inflicts a Status Effect on an Opposed Roll. This attack does not miss.

All a Skillful Hero Entertainer needs to do is keep their Perform and Nature at max, boosting either DEX or MND (Probably DEX), and they can produce damage nobody can catch up to till Ancient Magic comes into play.

Or a super cheesy Black Mage/ Time Mage(/ MAYBE Gambler). In any case, Skillful Hero quickly breaks the game if taken more than three times.


If you want to min-max it, if my math is right, an Entertainer at 15 with 3 Fashionable and 6 Skillful Hero can get up to a 24 raw preform stat, with +30 from 4 accessories, armor, and weapon (+25 if you use the dancer's legendary accessory), as well as +10 from food, and depending on how the GM rules it, +10 from consumables. This leaves you with +32 (+37 if using consumable) to any one stat for all party members, or +29 (+34 if using consumable) to any two stats.

Of course this takes into account all Tier 7. Let's see what the build can do at lower milestones.

At level 1 the Entertainer can have 10 preform, and 10 in any two synth they want (usually Accessory and Weapon), as well as 4 left over for Scavenge. This means they can start crafting T3 items as soon as they get the components/money without fail, and even higher if they want to risk a failure.

At level 5 the Entertainer has 14 preform (without boosts from items, and at least 20 with), and 15 in both synths, with 8 in scavenge. This allows the Entertainer to begin crafting T5 items without fail, as well as boosting their party member's favorite stats by 7-12. With T5 weapons, this boosts damage by 35-60. At level 5.

At level 10 the Entertainer takes her first rank of Fashionable. She has 20 unboosted preform, and 21 in her synth checks, making T6 impossible to fail and T7 easy to craft. In addition she has 10 scavenge, which isn't terribly impressive at this level, admittedly. With the components she's been able to scavenge up until now it's reasonable to assume she's begun to craft her +5 skill bonus equipment. Two accessories and one weapon with +5 Preform gives her a +15 to her base 20. She can use any leftover components to craft T7 weapons and sell them at half price so she can buy the rest of her set. The build is basically complete at this point, all that's left to do is wait on the other two Fashionable pickups and get her legendary accessory.

At level 10 she can start boosting her ally's stats by 20+, which at T7 weapons is 140+ damage. If a Black Mage takes Flare at level 10, the 20+ PWR boost translates into 240+ damage. A White Mage would gain 200+ MP from a MND boost, and 160+ healing boost with each Curaja. Alternatively everyone could choose to simply gain 200+ HP and simply never not care about doing increased damage, unless you have a party of blade wielders that is.

Don't forget a Skillful Entertainer can probably Synthesize their own T8 gear with little difficulty. And with Fashionable Lv3, they can really abuse a quartet of T8 +15 Perform accessories. Though they'd probably look like Elvis.

[zeugmatrograph]

Don't forget a Skillful Entertainer can probably Synthesize their own T8 gear with little difficulty. And with Fashionable Lv3, they can really abuse a quartet of T8 +15 Perform accessories. Though they'd probably look like Elvis.

Could have sworn there was something in the book that says you couldn't take an item mod more than once, but guess I was wrong. Yeah that makes things crazier.

[squiggit]

Could have sworn there was something in the book that says you couldn't take an item mod more than once, but guess I was wrong. Yeah that makes things crazier.

Enchantments can only be taken once and don't stack unless explicitly stated.

Skill bonus says it stacks, but it doesn't explicitly say that it can be taken multiple times per item (unlike attribute bonus which defines both).

[SoulofTerra]

I love this system over all and have had several successful campaigns with it. i was wondering however if the bestiary is going to be added to? I saw a earlier version of this system that had a much larger list of monsters and bosses to choose from and was wondering if the list was working its way towards that

[Scavion]

Hi there. I made an account just to ask a question about this awesome rulebook.

Does anyone have some example characters that way I can be sure that I'm building my character right? Preferably level 3 with a job change at one point to a class with a different bonuses.

Thanks.

[squiggit]

I love this system over all and have had several successful campaigns with it. i was wondering however if the bestiary is going to be added to? I saw a earlier version of this system that had a much larger list of monsters and bosses to choose from and was wondering if the list was working its way towards that

Bestiary is supposed to be part of the next update. Which was scheduled for October of last year. So who knows.

I'll try to see if I can dig up any sample monsters when I get home though.

[IronJawbone]

http://www.sendspace.com/file/qt48q6

Hello everyone! FINALLY got to my own FF adventure, and realized the monster maker needed some points to its finesse. If anyone is interested, I'll post up some of the monsters I make over the course of my adventure as well.

Download link is at the top, improvements are below.

-Monsters can be dual types now.
-Weak/Vulnerabilities properly colored-added Absorb
-Death Status
-Added things like Gill/EXP/Destiny/
-Cheat Sheet: An awesome tab for GMs on a laptop so they can mostly focus on one page for a multitude of monsters with as little page switching as possible. This ALONE is worth the download.

Oh, and a thank you to War of Planets for the pat on the back. ^_^

[ThreadOfFate]

http://www.sendspace.com/file/qt48q6

Hello everyone! FINALLY got to my own FF adventure, and realized the monster maker needed some points to its finesse. If anyone is interested, I'll post up some of the monsters I make over the course of my adventure as well.

Download link is at the top, improvements are below.

-Monsters can be dual types now.
-Weak/Vulnerabilities properly colored-added Absorb
-Death Status
-Added things like Gill/EXP/Destiny/
-Cheat Sheet: An awesome tab for GMs on a laptop so they can mostly focus on one page for a multitude of monsters with as little page switching as possible. This ALONE is worth the download.

Oh, and a thank you to War of Planets for the pat on the back. ^_^

Hot damn IronJawbone, this is amazing. You've taken my crappy little thing and turned it into something that's freakin' amazing. Well done.

[Temotei]

http://www.sendspace.com/file/qt48q6

Hello everyone! FINALLY got to my own FF adventure, and realized the monster maker needed some points to its finesse. If anyone is interested, I'll post up some of the monsters I make over the course of my adventure as well.

Download link is at the top, improvements are below.

-Monsters can be dual types now.
-Weak/Vulnerabilities properly colored-added Absorb
-Death Status
-Added things like Gill/EXP/Destiny/
-Cheat Sheet: An awesome tab for GMs on a laptop so they can mostly focus on one page for a multitude of monsters with as little page switching as possible. This ALONE is worth the download.

Oh, and a thank you to War of Planets for the pat on the back. ^_^

Huh. This is pretty cool, man. Nice job. My Excel is an older version, but I'm not the GM right now in our group, so it's okay. :smalltongue:

[IronJawbone]

Temotei: Always nice to hear a positive reply. Yeah, definitely pass this to your GM if he can use Excel, because it really does shave off a lot of time when making monsters.

ThreadOfFate: :smallbiggrin: I'm really glad to hear this from you, as you've been helping you so much on these forums. Again, I want to thank you for laying out a foundation because my attempt at a MM would've been pretty lame.

I know that this MM is just in time for Dust to release 1.4, but unlike this version, I'll try and stay ahead of the game and do a 1.4 version. (Even if a beastiary does come out, because homebrewing monsters is still pretty slick.) Actually, Dust, if you read this, would you mind giving me an opinion on the MM?

[War Planets]

Just finished my campaign. Started with a theoretical 6 players and ended with only 2. The first player was a 100% Red Mage (house rule of Red Mages can't class change), the other player was 90% Monk, he dipped into Thief for quick hit and Samurai for Flawless Form. Three of the other 4 members quit after the 2nd session (1 never showed, 1 quit because he was playing a "borring" class [Entertainer], and the 3rd got tired of not doing anything but tanking because he picked the Paladin). The 4th player tried to continue but could not maintain a consistent schedule. This left just the 2 players, so I gave them a custom Normal Monster that had a support role.

As stated by Dust on the first page of this thread: Comet is overpowered with damage boosting abilities. I made the End-Boss level 20 and gave him 40,000 HP. The Red Mage had a 3 Limit Break set up to cast 5 blasts of Comet at (42x14)+2d6 Damage per Comet, he did this twice and did about 30,000 Damage between the 2 uses. The Monk was just impossible to kill.

Their hardest fights throughout the campaign were when I had them fight a Boss character designed and ran by my brother, and when I had them fight thier doubles.

Over all it was a very entertaining campaign and IronJawbone's monster maker was invaluable for quick fights or changing monsters on the fly. Thank you everyone who put input into some ideas that I used in my campaign.

And the largest Thanks goes to Dust for making a really fun game.

[jjj54]

That monster creator is really neat, thanks.

[ThreadOfFate]

MONSTER CREATION NOTES:

For all that people may dislike FF 13, I feel like they did a pretty fantastic job revising the traditional battle system of FF to make it more engaging and interesting - especially in terms of monster roles and encounter creativity and challenge.

To that end, I recommend people look at the Paradigm structure and use that for monster creation. If you need quick monsters for an unexpected encounter, or feel like making monsters that will synergize (shut up chrome that's totally a word) well together, merely look at how the roles function in the Paradigm system and model off of that.

Thus, I've done some role analysis and present the results as follows.

Commando - deal damage. High PWR. These guys exist to get in your face, deal damage, and kill your party members as fast as possible. Choose secondaries that up their damage count, their accuracy, and attack multiple targets. Counterattack is a great ability for them (stack it!), and give them Unusual Defense if you want to stifle your party attempts at simply overwhelming them with damage. Multiweapon greatly increases their chances to hit. Combine Skitterish and Swift Strikes, make DEX their primary stat, and use a secondary that does M. ARM damage to make a fast, hard-hitting skirmisher who can screw with both casters and physical characters equally.
Good secondary roles: melee-focused Ravager (high MND), Sentinel (high RES)

Ravager - elemental damage. High PWR, high MND. Give them all the multi-target spells, or create attacks that target all short-range enemies/the entire group and give it an elemental bend. Magical Counterattack, Flawless Spell, and certain Job Abilities are pretty good abilities for them to have.
Good secondary roles: Commando, Saboteur.

Sentinel - tank. High RES. Secondaries that do knockback or disarm enemies or do X Break can do wonders for making them annoying and thus priority targets. Job Ability (Provoke) is lovely to take the heat off your other enemies, and give them Counterattack if you want to really create an annoying enemy - especially more than once. Unusual Defense, Improved Defenses, and Regeneration (at higher levels) can make them even more annoying. If you can spare the PWR to make them deadlier with their attacks or counterattacks, all the better.
Good secondary roles: Commando, Medic (high MND), Synergist (high MND).

Synergist - party buffer. High MND, decent RES to take hits. Give them the good buffing spells and secondary attacks that grant positive status effects to their allies (or increase their AVD/ACC by 2). Good abilities are Flawless Spell, Magical Counterattack (got hit? cast shell on an ally! or something), Call For Help, and Swarm (to make them last longer and be immune to Knockback).
Good secondary roles: Medic, Sentinel (high RES)

Medic - healer. High MND. Abuse the hell out of that one secondary attack that heals, and combine it with targeting an entire short range or Group to make this guy really annoying. White Mage spells are a must as well (particularly ones to remove Status Effects), and granting them an item with SOS-Autolife or simply just Auto-Life will keep them coming back for more. Magical Counterattack, Flawless Spell, and even something like Multiple Parts (if you can manage it) or Swarm are great abilities.
Good secondary roles: Synergist, Sentinel (high RES), Saboteur

Saboteur - debuffer. High MND. Any and all status effect spells will fit him, as well as secondary effects that also inflict a status effect onto the enemy. Have him target the whole group for maximum suck. Give him Flawless Spell, Multiple Parts, or Status Touch to make him especially annoying (combine the latter with Counterattack to create a fun combination).
Good secondary roles: Ravager, Medic

These are just suggestions to give you guys ideas, and if you want to mix them up you are more than welcome to. Hope this is useful when designing all those wonderful baddies for your party to slaughter (or be slaughtered by).

[Sasaisen]

ThreadOfFate and myself have a pair of games running with enough houserules that we're considering an overhaul of the system. Our goals are, among other things, to fix the Destiny problem, make multiclassing not silly, firm up skills and numbers, and make ability acquisition more streamlined/give everyone more to choose from.

What I'm looking at right now is the class system. The current idea is something like a Tactics setup, where there are four basic classes (Fighter, Thief, Black Mage, White Mage) that anyone can take, and "advanced" classes (Red Mage, Blue Mage, Dark Knight, Alchemist, etc.) that you can become after acquiring enough abilities from certain classes (e.g. Red Mage requires 1 White Mage and 1 Black Mage).
Advantages:
It's the same setup many of the games have.
It reinforces stereotypes that make sense (a Paladin should have White Mage and Fighter abilities to his name)
More powerful abilities can be gated off behind certain classes (you want Ultima, you have to wait until you qualify for Sage).
Disadvantages:
Some people will disagree with the prerequisites, whatever they may be. ("Why do I need a Thief ability to be an Archer?")
The whole "unlocking" aspect doesn't port over well to a TTRPG when you can just start at level whatever and already have the abilities you need to qualify.
Games that want to disallow multiclassing (which isn't really a position I want to support, but I can be persuaded) would either have to restrict themselves to the basic classes, start at a level sufficiently high for the advanced classes people want to be, or handwave the prerequisites for advanced classes (which is bad if some classes have more powerful abilities).

The alternative is basically a setup like what we have now, with every class existing as its own entity. While clearly workable, this isn't as satisfying to me mostly because it reinforces the idea that people "should" remain in a single class. What are people's thoughts on the matter?

[EDIT] If anyone wants, I can post my design notes. Once I have something concrete enough, I'll fork off a thread.

[squiggit]

A potential issue I can see you didn't mention was people not liking where the classes are placed.

i.e. someone wants to be a master black or white mage and gets annoyed with the game because they have to trade out of the job for whatever job you consider the "better" version.

One of the reasons why I think 14 uses generic names.

An overhaul seems safe. According to their profile Dust hasn't been on at all this year so it's not looking particularly great for this game.

[ThreadOfFate]

Hey nerds.

Sasaisen and I have started up the new thread for Final Fantasy Infinite. We'd love for it to get as active and contributive (that is a word, shut up google chrome) as this one has, so come on over (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338809-Final-Fantasy-Infinite) and feel free to throw in your ideas when we release some more details and stuff.

As it is now, we haven't even touched on equipment, but I want to preserve a lot of the FFd6 equipment because I love it more than I can possibly say.

[Prim]

Hello everyone. I'm doing some modding of the FFd6 system using a variation on Bravely Default's Brave and Default System. I was hoping to get some experienced players to input on my handling of the system, especially slow actions such as spellcasting. Then without further ado, this is the combat system designed for a PbP rpg I have envisioned.

Overview:
Players accumulate Brave Points (BP) each turn of combat. They can utilize BP to move or to perform actions (like attacking).
Players with short-range attacks can target enemies in the same zone as them, ranged attacks can target enemies in adjacent zones with longer distances imposing a penalty to accuracy (except for terrain features).
Players can choose to store BP, up to 5, and spend them to move quickly through several zones or to spend multiple actions. Limitbreaks and special attacks may require 2 or more BP to use.

Map Example:
Players will be presented with a map. A simple corrider set on a train is represented below:



Freight Car
Passenger Car
Coal Car




Let us assume our Heroes (Warrior, White Mage, Black Mage, and Dragoon) start in the Freight Car and we have Enemies in the Passenger Car, Coal Car, and Train.
The Warrior starts with 2 BP, spending 1 BP to MOVE to the Passenger Car and 1 BP to Cyclone the enemies and prevent them from leaving the zone.
Now protected from any melee attacks, the White Mage spends 2 BP to cast both Cure and Protect on the Warrior in preparation for the large amounts of damage he's about to take.
The Black Mage spends 2 BP to cast 1 Fira targeting the enemies in Passenger Car as a group.
The Dragoon starts with 2 BP, spending1 BP to Jump to the backline in the Coal Car. This action ends his turn.

On the Enemy's turn, the three minions in the passenger car all spend 1 BP to attack the Warrior for a total of 3 attacks. Enemy casters in the Coal Car begin casting a spell targeting the Warrior.

At the start of the player's turn, all players gain 2 BP. In addition, the warrior receives a much-needed Cure and Protect while the Black Mage's Fira lands on the enemies in the Passenger Car, killing them. The Dragoon meanwhile lands in the middle of the casters on the Coal Car and impales one with his jump.
The Warrior spends his 2 BP to MOVE to the Coal Car and initiate a team attack on a caster.
The White Mage and Black Mage both spend 2 BP to move two zones in to the Coal Car.
The Dragoon has 3 BP, spending 1 to Bolt Breath the enemy group, 1 more to finish and kill an enemy caster, and the last BP to join the warrior's team attack.

Potential Problems
The biggest problem with this idea is how to interpret slow actions, especially the spellcasting. If players can take multiple actions and cast multiple spells in 1 round, how do we resolve teamwork attacks to interrupt them? The simplest solution is to treat the spells as slow actions and have each teamwork attack or or disruptive action affect them individually. So if the whitemage casts 2 spells, and 1 teamwork attack successfully lands, only 1 spell is interrupted. If 2 land, then both spells are interrupted. While it preserves the teamwork attack, it does not quite make sense from a roleplay perspective and feels rather ham-fisted because of it.

An alternative is to add a BP cost to it with the caveat that casters can ignore it to cast slowly. Unfortunately, players are likely to simply build BP and this defeats the whole purpose of teamwork attacks, knockbacks, and other caster disruption actions.

If anyone has an idea to address this problem, please share. Otherwise, the first solution (although clunky) is the best option at the moment. Also, other comments about this idea are welcome.

[War Planets]

Has anyone been working on fixing the problems with Dust's system in terms of it being a tabletop? If someone has been keeping track of what Dust wanted to fix and change and any of the changes she considered and changes that were suggested by others, would you please post it?
I really like Dust's FFd6 system, all it needs is a few tweeks. It is a great game that is fun and easy to learn.

Although I do not know what has happenned to Dust, the work she has done has been amazing and I would like to ask if someone is willing to take up her torch and continue her work? I promise that you will have the support of me and everyone whom has posted in this Thread. I can give ideas, but I am not a leader nor have I played this system enough to know all of the flaws and how to fix them.

Thank you to everyone who has played this game and helped to make it what it is now. Let us not stop because the creator is gone but continue forward in her honor and memory and for the future of Final Fantasy D6!

[CombatOwl]

Has anyone been working on fixing the problems with Dust's system in terms of it being a tabletop? If someone has been keeping track of what Dust wanted to fix and change and any of the changes she considered and changes that were suggested by others, would you please post it?
I really like Dust's FFd6 system, all it needs is a few tweeks. It is a great game that is fun and easy to learn.

Although I do not know what has happenned to Dust, the work she has done has been amazing and I would like to ask if someone is willing to take up her torch and continue her work? I promise that you will have the support of me and everyone whom has posted in this Thread. I can give ideas, but I am not a leader nor have I played this system enough to know all of the flaws and how to fix them.

Thank you to everyone who has played this game and helped to make it what it is now. Let us not stop because the creator is gone but continue forward in her honor and memory and for the future of Final Fantasy D6!

I've given this some thought lately. I'm willing to pick up further development of this game. I've been playing it enough lately. Does anyone have a copy of the original source document so I wouldn't have to re-create it from the PDF? Community opinion: should I fork it off as something else with a different name?

First on the list of todos: Fix the rules that aren't working well, like actually putting the slots fix into the rules, and extending Thief's feint so it's useful as a standard action.

[Soultastic]

You'd probably have to make a new PDF. I wish someone would, as I have issues just copy-pasting out of the document.. it doesn't seem to like that at all.

[ThreadOfFate]

So as some of you may know, D&D 5e is coming out soon. I got my hands on the Player's Handbook and found an interesting Ranger ability that you can pick up. It sounded a little familiar to me, as an avid fan of FF d6.


"Stand Against the Tide. When a hostile creature misses you with a melee attack, you can use your reaction to force that creature to repeat the same attack against another creature (other than itself) of your choice."

[Nasami]

I'm a new GM and my players are level 5 and I'm going to give them Limit Abilities soon, but I had a few questions. Do you need to Activate Limit Abilities? How do you do that is it just a Destiny Point expendature, or is it always on? And could someone discribe how Saint's Cross works? 'm reading it, but it just isn't clicking for me. Every time the Paladin gets his, he and one other person auto heals. Is this on constantly? Is it just on for that battle? Does it happen once after he activates it? Is the healing split?

[Sasaisen]

I'm a new GM and my players are level 5 and I'm going to give them Limit Abilities soon, but I had a few questions. Do you need to Activate Limit Abilities? How do you do that is it just a Destiny Point expendature, or is it always on? Limit Abilities are always on or useable at will, unless specified otherwise. The only difference between them and regular abilities is that you can't pick them at levelup.



And could someone discribe how Saint's Cross works? 'm reading it, but it just isn't clicking for me. Every time the Paladin gets his, he and one other person auto heals. Is this on constantly? Is it just on for that battle? Does it happen once after he activates it? Is the healing split?
It happens every time he gets hit (or intercepts damage with Cover, or whatever), no action necessary. The healing amount applies in full to both the Paladin and his friend.

[Soultastic]

Is there no word on where Dust has disappered off to?

[ThreadOfFate]

We've heard nothing in quite some time. I sent her a PM some time ago and got no reply.

[squiggit]

Profile says their last activity was December 2013. So yeah.

Might be time for someone to do with this project what Dust did with the original project.

[Dragonus45]

That sucks.

Quick question is the version in the OP still the most recent version then? I lost mine and was going to re download it but wanted to check first.

[ThreadOfFate]

I believe so, yes.

[Dust]

Well, hi there!

You lovely people really did deserve to have some more indication as to what happened, but truth be told, I had assumed this project was all but dead and forgotten - at least, until I saw a roll20 game that gave me a nostalgic grin and sent me back here to take a peek.

Truth be told, I actually wound up working in the industry proper, and trading away the FFd6 email account (which was permanently full!) for a professional one (which is even MORE full!) took the wind right outta my sails when it came to hobby-design.

There was also a weee bit of trouble when some internet trolls decided to get involved in my real life, and that killed a lot of enthusiasm I had for working on this.

I'll be around for the next few months at the very least to see if we can't work together to FIX this gosh-danged half-balanced nightmare, and I'll make sure that all of the base files are publicly shared and stuff, too!
The system has never really left my mind - for the last few years, even when working on other projects I've always been making jot notes on an ever-growing 'to be changed' document that's, like....17 pages, now?

I digress.

Hi.

[Temotei]

Well, hi there!

You lovely people really did deserve to have some more indication as to what happened, but truth be told, I had assumed this project was all but dead and forgotten - at least, until I saw a roll20 game that gave me a nostalgic grin and sent me back here to take a peek.

Truth be told, I actually wound up working in the industry proper, and trading away the FFd6 email account (which was permanently full!) for a professional one (which is even MORE full!) took the wind right outta my sails when it came to hobby-design.

There was also a weee bit of trouble when some internet trolls decided to get involved in my real life, and that killed a lot of enthusiasm I had for working on this.

I'll be around for the next few months at the very least to see if we can't work together to FIX this gosh-danged half-balanced nightmare based, and I'll make sure that all of the base files are publicly shared and stuff, too!
The system has never really left my mind - for the last few years, even when working on other projects I've always been making jot notes on an ever-growing 'to be changed' document that's, like....17 pages, now?

I digress.

Hi.

I honestly didn't expect to see you again. Glad you're not dead! Congrats on getting into professional design.

The troll bit sucks, though. Sad to hear it and hope it's stopped.

Maybe we should start a new thread since we're at 49 pages anyway. Might be a good time, eh?

[ThreadOfFate]

Well, hi there!

You lovely people really did deserve to have some more indication as to what happened, but truth be told, I had assumed this project was all but dead and forgotten - at least, until I saw a roll20 game that gave me a nostalgic grin and sent me back here to take a peek.

Truth be told, I actually wound up working in the industry proper, and trading away the FFd6 email account (which was permanently full!) for a professional one (which is even MORE full!) took the wind right outta my sails when it came to hobby-design.

There was also a weee bit of trouble when some internet trolls decided to get involved in my real life, and that killed a lot of enthusiasm I had for working on this.

I'll be around for the next few months at the very least to see if we can't work together to FIX this gosh-danged half-balanced nightmare based, and I'll make sure that all of the base files are publicly shared and stuff, too!
The system has never really left my mind - for the last few years, even when working on other projects I've always been making jot notes on an ever-growing 'to be changed' document that's, like....17 pages, now?

I digress.

Hi.

Holy **** hi! Great to see you back!

Sucks to hear about the trolls bit, stuff like that's been on the rise ever since that GamerGate nonsense started up a few months ago.

Congratulations on getting into the professional field, too!

Yeah, the system isn't totally dead. Sasaisen and I started an offshoot but it petered out fast (though we too have plenty of design documents still hanging around), and I still have the campaign I'm planning on rebooting again be in FF d6.

Great to hear from you again.

[Iwhowrite]

Glad to know your alive (sorry about the trolls, may they forever dwell in loths underbelly). I will be watching with great anticipation.

[Ethaedalus]

Very glad to see you back, I was going to try to get in contact with you, I was going to try and fix the grammar mistakes I had found but didn't since you hadn't been here in awhile.

[Soultastic]

Trolls try to ruin everything. You have people here who are more than happy to see the game system develop. :)

[Creed]

*Praises the return of Dust*

[Soultastic]

There is apparently a subreddit where someone has posted changes and fixes to classes for the system. It's something to look at, if anything.

I'm hiding the link since I don't want to come across as advertising.

http://www.reddit.com/r/FFd6/

It's something you might want to consider if you're going to update the system. :)

[Dust]

So, here's sort of just me summarizing the things which have been touched on the MOST in the last few pages of this thread and various emails.

Intention
This should be a game where people can sit down, throw together a character in half an hour, and not make 'wrong' decisions. It must continue to be a system where 'cinematic' is the key word, and that means continuing to keep the power squarely in the hands of the players and the GMs alike, encouraging creativity and assuming as little as possible.

When constructing boundaries for players, the system will choose silly over realistic every time. Players who wish to play grim members of SeeD or SOLDIER should be able to do so, but nowhere in the rules will it say that a giraffe can't play football monk can't suplex an entire train. I will never expressly suggest an attack may only strike three times if the player wishes to envision it as a hundred rapid blows.

The changes outlined below need to be implemented into a public release version IMMEDIATELY, with numerical balancing to be done as an afterthought over the coming months.

General Changes
Problem: Many of the Jobs and abilities suffer balancing issues.
Solution: I listed this one first because it's so damn important. As expected, huge rewrites will be coming for each of them. The lists are too huge to touch upon here, but know that everything that has been said about abilities ranging from Skillful Hero to Charismagic, from the Dragoon's jump to the Engineer's general level of impotence has been reviewed carefully. I have a good two dozen pages of information to draw upon here and I could talk for days about this, and the enormous amounts of homebrew here is a big help towards making this the BEST chunk of updating that it can possibly be.

Problem: As interesting an experiment as the 4 attribute points were, ultimately it felt like too many things defaulted to each individual stat.
Solution: TBD. I had previously written out a system wherein the current 4 attributes had moved back to the highly-suggested 5. However, Sasaisen's four-attribute summary of Might, Quickness, Willpower and Insight is inspiring and I'd like to talk over that math with him before finalizing decisions here.
Being able to combine a single stat for both magical and physical might will continue as a Shared Ability regardless. From there, how skills are handled will also require tweaking, although not as much as one might expect.

Problem: The Goals system is abusable.
Solution: To be replaced instead by Purpose/Ideals (unsure of the naming scheme I'll be going with) which in turn power your Limit Breaks when threatened. See the following section for details.

Problem: The Destiny Point system encouraged players to hoard these encounter-winning tokens, thus making it impossible to plan encounters.
Solution: The point system is being changed entirely, moving instead to two seperate mechanics. The first of these is the milestone system - several times throughout the campaign, the GM will be able to claim the PCs have hit a major milestone, at which point they can make larger, sweeping changes to their character.
Each Job will have one passive ability (Cover), one pre-built Limit Break (Invincible) and a handful of job-specific abilities (but no 'epic abilities'). Upon reaching a milestone, a character may choose to change jobs, 'master' their current job in order to augment the passive ability further, or build their own limit break while still keeping access to the one belonging to their Job.

Limit points will be tracked separately, and will refresh at the start of each game. You obtain a limit point the first time each game whenever one of the following events occurs:
- The first time each adventure that you are severely weakened by an enemy - 25% health, hit with a majorly debilitating status effect such as petrification, etc.
- One point can be awarded for good rp/keeping the story moving (such as having your character believe a lie the player distrusts)
- An ally is killed.
- You gain up to one point per session whenever your PURPOSE/IDEALS (as listed on your sheet) are challenged/threatened or you actively work towards them.

Limit Points exist for the same purpose they do now - adding a bonus dice to rolls or performing limit breaks.

Problem: Many of the Job Abilities are 'made-up' or from an obscure source.
Solution: The release of FFXIV, FFXV, Type-0, and the upcoming Heavensward expansion for the mmorpg all provide a far larger pool of well-known abilities to draw upon for naming conventions, and will provide a greater flexibility in a job's 'identity' when converted to the tabletop format. The goal is to reduce the list of abilities with no pre-existing parallel to 0.
On a side note, the existence of some of the abilities I tossed in there at the last minute - DRK comes to mind moreso than anyone else - is something that kept me away from this system for a long time. I felt legitimately disgusted by what had wound up in the pdf. More care will be taken in the future.

Problem: Magic beats martial.
Solution: The initial design was for magic to be reliable and powerful at all stages of the game, where elemental weaknesses would be exploited for the equivalent of a 'guaranteed critical' for double damage. Conversely, martial fighters would be about 25% lower at all times but with the capacity to spike up and deal far larger amounts of damage on a critical hit or via personal limit breaks. Through revisions and poor planning, this initial idea was lost.
While returning to that base idea I will be removing the Time Mage job completely from the game and doing a total rewrite on the remaining four types of magic - White, Black, Blue, and Summoning.
For example, the Arcane weapon category, when equipped, will now cause you to deal one fewer damage step in combat at all times. However, they allow you to take spells which restore HP or deal direct elemental damage and change them from a Single target to a Group target at any time, simply by applying this same penalty and reducing their damage step by one. This will cut down on both the total number of spells as well as provide greater divisiveness between martial and magical characters as they must make decisions about specializations.

Problem: Dual-Wielding, man. Like, are you ****in' kidding me?
Solution: I had always claimed that it would be the penultimate trade-off by choosing to be a true glass cannon, purchasing two weapons instead of a weapon and armor. I was absolutely wrong.
Weapons will gain fewer properties overall, Armor will gain more, each character will be able to equip two accessories instead of one, and an accessory-only property will be introduced that grants the wearer ARM or M.ARM as if it was a shield of the same tier to represent defensive 'guard' items, which will be discussed greatly.
Classes which currently do not have access to Dual-Wielding or Shields will gain access to them, but the idea of 'handiness' will not exist. You can still use a massive lance and a shield simultaneously.

Problem: The PDF is ugly, and also, enormous.
Solution: Art has been commissioned to replace the less-attractive portions of the book (such as the crystals by each job ability) and this next revision will have a heavy focus on visual appeal, as well as the complete removal of the monster creation section to be added to the half-finished Bestiary that already exists.



I can't provide any hard and fast deadlines, but for the next three months of my life I'm free 24 hours a day and this is my priority. We'll be treating this project like a graphic designer treats a client - with hands-on updates in rapid intervals instead of long silences with a 'wait and see' approach.

[Dragonus45]

... Its so great to see you back, and right on time for my group to be talking about doing a game of this.

I look forward to seeing the changes.

[Temotei]

Hype! I'm excited. Our group had a two-session game of this going on that kind of died (not because of the system, really, but more because we're flaky). We really didn't do much with the system, so if we play again I'll get back to you with feedback.

Are there going to be "official" character sheets this time around? ThreadOfFate's sheets were pretty good, so maybe you could base a sheet on theirs (or just use them with permission)?

EDIT: Oh, and not sure if this was missed: Dust, we're running up to the thread page limit, so we'll need a new thread pretty soon. I figured it would be best if you made the new thread so you could edit the first post at your leisure, but I'm sure many of us are willing to if you'd rather not for whatever reason.

[ThreadOfFate]

I've got the original files for the character sheets on my desktop, so I'll be ready to make changes to them whenever and upload the new versions. I'm glad I can contribute to this project, even if in just that way, and I absolutely give permission to use them.

If you guys have any suggestions, let me know and I can do mockups sometime this weekend.

[Dust]

You're awesome, Thread.
Let me spend the next few days pounding out the changes that I KNOW I want to do ahead of time and I'll start the new thread with the new pdf.

[Seraphiel]

Dusssst :D. Can't wait to see the new stuff. I love this system :3.

[Dionon]

I know you said each class was going to have their own Limit Break built in, but can we still build our own at preset levels? Cause if not, I honestly don't like that particular change. Half the draw of the game was the customization of the Limit Break system

[Soultastic]

Man. I'm playing a Time Mage in my current game.

Hrm. I'll have to see what's going to happen with this update.
I'm not upset, but it is definitely a game change, to say the least.

[Zartemis]

I started playing FFd6 a couple years ago. Since then we've had some party changes, some hefty delays, and overall some clusterbucky nonsense. Amidst that, I felt FFd6 wasn't quite...right. To me, it felt a bit short, and I was intending to GM something longer, so I started modifying the system, tweaking and expanding. So far, it's been fun. I've made a few new systems, re balanced a bunch of stuff, and I'm having fun, though I'll admit some stress, a ton of confusion, and a ton more procrastination. Right now I'm stuck plucking at the gil economy in terms of expanding upwards and I'm feeling I'm going to have to simply redo the whole scale of treasure distribution. That said, I'm looking forward to the new stuff coming! Something tells me I won't be able to adapt my changes to it too well (I mean, one of my players is a Time Mage, for starters), but hopefully I can garner some inspiration on my end, and I might even run a game in this after the changes are made!

[Ilorin Lorati]

Zartemis, why don't you share the changes you've made? Maybe Dust could pull some stuff out of it?

[elmerg]

You're awesome, Thread.
Let me spend the next few days pounding out the changes that I KNOW I want to do ahead of time and I'll start the new thread with the new pdf.

Wishing you luck, Dust. I've been running a combo of v1.2 and v1.3 while I work on my own adjustments, and I'll say, there's tons of material to choose from nowadays. Just don't go the wholly cinematic route; I'd suggest tying Limit Break-use to something else, as having it tied to 'this philosophical thing for a PC' may not work out, if a GM can't work a way to have that thing come up when a Limit Break would be useful.

[Zartemis]

Zartemis, why don't you share the changes you've made? Maybe Dust could pull some stuff out of it?

I would opt towards the changes being massively embarrassing and stupid in ways I can't imagine, but I guess here's top shelf:
Everything started with me looking at Destiny and going 'oh gosh this is going to be a bother'. So Destiny quickly got turned into a renewable resource. It keeps a semi-sparse rewarding situation, but I took inspiration from Dark Heresy here. Each point has multiple functions in the flavor of 'Spend' (unusable until next Travel Rest), 'Lock' (unusable until specific conditions are fulfilled) and 'Burn' (Permanently spent). This also required a change to Limit Breaks, which gave me the chance to add a system to make Limit Conditions rather than making them reliant on criticals, and to make a Party Limit Break system as well, though that's in the works.

After that, I got ambitious. The plans turned into 'let's expand the whole system. 15 is tiny, so let's go classic and make it a 50 level system'. I wanted it bigger to do more with, while keeping the feeling of rewarding people as they went along. I also wanted to reward class purism a bit more, as the system seemed to favor cross-classing heavily as far as I could see. That said, I didn't want to completely invalidate cross-classing. This brought forth the 'Pinnacles of Mastery' system. Each Job had two Pinnacle of Mastery routes that were either meant to be a different outlook on the Job, or allow the Job to emphasize a role crystal it had/fill a new role. Samurai, for example, received Shogunsblade, a more defensive, physically-focused route that brought taste back to more realistic Samurai, and Shrine Keeper, which emphasized an ability to deal damage with Draw Out and communion with the kami that inhabit their weapons. (I already had a bone to pick with Samurai when mine figured out how to play 'I wipe the map on my turn' efficiently.) I have five Jobs (my party members') plotted out fully for their expanded ability lists and Pinnacles of Mastery, which are received every ten levels in a specific job) and if there's interest in those, I may post them.

Levelup bonuses and such obviously needed to be tweaked, and that's still in the works a bit. Economy needs to be fixed, as there are plans to expand upwards in tiers from 8 to 12. I've conjured a bevy of extra status effects to giggle around with, skill checks are under works...ah, General Abilities warrant a mention. I have outlines to add Summoning Magic as a proper subsection in various forms to enable summon-lovers. The Summon list is also tweaked, though that's more a personal thing for my game, and there are planned I guess Summon Augmentations or Evolutions for later on in my campaign, though I won't talk too much on those in case one of them pops in here.

Monsters are also something I want to toy around with, especially since one of my players is a Blue Mage. Namely, since they have a Shapeshifting Pinnacle of Mastery route, I wanted to go over the abilities, tweak and add to the list, and give them proper tiers to facilitate that.

I can go deeper in-depth about anything above that I have finished and revealed to my players, just ask. For the other stuff, I don't want to get expectations up if they find this because a lot of these changed in-progress.

[Soultastic]

Out of everything you said, I do agree with one thing. More than 15 levels would be fantastic. The game I'm participating in grants levels after a period of time instead of using an experience system. This way he can craft stories and encounters to make the levels feel meaningful and earned with the gear coming out more solidly for the group as a whole.

With 15 levels, we'd have hit the peak of our game a while back and be done with it by now, planning to make a new one or the like. If there were more levels, the leveling for the group could pick up a bit without feeling we're being rushed towards the end.

We're running our 43rd session tonight, and we run it weekly.. and two weeks ago we just obtained level 4. To add to that, we started out at level 2 to give us a more clear concept on our characters. So we've leveled twice in an entire year.

[Zartemis]

Yeah, I've already reworked the XP scale for it, and added Superboss class to the enemy set for that fun, really tough, optional encounter fun. To counter it being a tabletop, I added some abilities and Limit Abilities through the reworked classes that function as 'fight resets' in case of defeat to probe and test harder encounters with. So far it's working well, enemies deliver XP by their class and level.

Edit: Right now I'm working on Monster Abilities. Once I get done with the fun bit of tweaking the current ones and adding the new ones, I have to play around with numbers to tier them and work on their distribution throughout levels up to 50. Overall, their distribution is probably going to get changed if only because the new tiering system I'm going to try to use for them is just asking for it.

[Soultastic]

I'm just almost bursting in anticipation of this update thread coming. :)

The GM of my game has made a summon and is currently thinking of making up his own unique spells. If anything cool comes out of it I might share it here.

[Sparx MacGyver]

Woah! Welcome back Dust! Glad to see you return. Congrats on the good stuff going for you, and sorry to hear about the trolls. I'm sure everybody will be happy with any updates/work you give us.

I think you sent me a message at one point on tumblr, but I never got around to it. I was talking about making lots of changes, but that game concluded early (I posted about it in the worst GM thread), and the ideas I had were either dropped and/or forgotten about, or I re-worked what I did want into either a Savage Worlds or Pathfinder Campaign that I ran after that FFd6 game.

Edit: Found a few notes I wrote from that game. I think most everything is covered by the folks here already. Really, all I can is that multiclassing is a good thing and should be encouraged, but you should also be able to play a single class the entire time if you choose to do so. We liked the color crystal references, kinda made it more flavorful and we didn't have to flip as much (we printed the pdf out..). Most of the other things are bullet points, and I don't really remember why I wrote them down. I have things like weapon and armor expansions - I have no clue as to what I was going to do with that, though it probably made sense to me at the time. That's about it. :smallconfused:



Yeah, the system isn't totally dead. Sasaisen and I started an offshoot but it petered out fast (though we too have plenty of design documents still hanging around), and I still have the campaign I'm planning on rebooting again be in FF d6.

I thought I saved a link or subscribed to that thread, but I didn't find it again and wondered what happened to it.

[Sasaisen]

Here's the link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?338809-Final-Fantasy-Infinite). I'd been updating it at a pace that makes glaciers look like Kenyans, but it's not quite dead and I've recently resumed work on it (unrelated to but encouraged by Dust's return). Currently I'm in the middle of a substantial update to combat and will bump it after that is posted.

[Bloody Jaws]

You're awesome, Thread.
Let me spend the next few days pounding out the changes that I KNOW I want to do ahead of time and I'll start the new thread with the new pdf.

Welcome back Dust! While you were away we decided not to stand still, so after playing your awesome system, we made an attempt to rebalance some of the issues you listed above while not breaking the style of the game itself (we centered most "fixes" around the fighting system, balancing all the classes, introducing a few more, and rebalancing the DP system making it less abusable). We would gladly contribute in making this game even better, so if you are interested, we could link the documents for you to give them a look and see if there's anything that could interest you. :smallsmile:

[Kip Shades]

I'm really interested in seeing how this gets updated. Some friends of mine (Who run a WIP Fire Emblem-based system) plan on starting up a Final Fantasy campaign soon, and I'm talking them into holding off until the update.

[Dust]

Welcome back Dust! While you were away we decided not to stand still, so after playing your awesome system, we made an attempt to rebalance some of the issues you listed above while not breaking the style of the game itself (we centered most "fixes" around the fighting system, balancing all the classes, introducing a few more, and rebalancing the DP system making it less abusable). We would gladly contribute in making this game even better, so if you are interested, we could link the documents for you to give them a look and see if there's anything that could interest you. :smallsmile:
Please do! We're running out of room in this thread, but the changes are coming along rapidly and I'm expecting a big update sooner rather than later.

[Soultastic]

I want to see the link, too!

[Bloody Jaws]

Ok, here we go, since i'm not quite fond with sharing links yet, if you have any trouble getting to the zipped file please do tell me!
The Zip contains 2 files:
-The general changelog, containing all kinds of balances regarding general gaming
-2 new Jobs, the alchemist and the Gladiator

There should be a third new job, The Summoner, who is already nice, but since we aim to rebalance summons, and his job is, well, mainly summon espers, we waited to add it, because we need to see what will happen to our beloved espers (or eons, or Gfs :smallwink: ).


http://www.mediafire.com/download/kliopzzr671g9rx/FFd6_Changelog.rar

Tell us what you think about it in general, and if you have any more ideas coming up from our suggestions, we can of course give help.

[Soultastic]

Oh! I checked the document and noticed these looked familiar.

Your comrade in arms in writing the revisions here posted the class changes to reddit. I linked it in the thread on the last page, the subreddit with THOSE changes.

I was unaware combat changes also went with the class changes. There was also no mention of new classes that I can recall.

I do like some of the changes you put in here. A friend of mine is especially a fan of the Samurai changes and another friend likes the Red Mage changes.

This is some good stuff. I'll have to read over these new classes to see if I have an opinion on them. (Also Dust plz no remove time mages, we like it. Well, me and the GM of my game I'm in like it. ;____;)

[Rikiaz]

(Also Dust plz no remove time mages, we like it. Well, me and the GM of my game I'm in like it. ;____;)

Please Dust, please :(

They are my favorite class in all of Final Fantasy.

[Lorkhan]

Oh gosh it's Dust. And here I thought... well a lot of things that don't matter any more.

If you're taking suggestions and/or listening to tales of tragedy and wonder, then I've got some. I've been running the system for a bit over a year straight now for a group (FFT Ivalice). I've made some tweaks and changes, but most of these I put in place before the game even began to allow for a smoother game. Some of them were made after looking at stuff others had done, some of them were all me. Like linking Elements to Attributes for Spellcasting. Which in turn made Mages more reliant on specific elements, and thus more easily countered.

Homebrew Rule Changes (http://pastebin.com/vfw6v2Kr)

The other big change I made was in introducing something completely new, but oddly enough something you sort-of hit on. Basically, I took the old, old FF1 Idea of 'Job Change' and applied it to the system. And the result was Prestige Jobs, notable increases to the regular Job upon which they're based, with an Innate that either improves or replaces their normal Job's, additional Job Abilities, an additional Limit Ability, and a unique Capstone for hitting Lv15.

Prestige Jobs (http://pastebin.com/MhaRXRsf)

Mostly this was because I hate dead-levels in a System, and by mixing in Limit Breaks and Limit Abilities at odd levels, everyone is always getting something. Other than that, YMMV as I was running a game in a Tactics-Verse where I wanted Job Changes to be common. I also tend to run NPC foes as often as Monsters, and we've a /very/ high Power Balance due to the Party my group has.

A Samurai/Gambler, who uses Double Up to spawn fake-swords to Draw-Out from every round. The only one who didn't Prestige because the Samurai Prestige is one of the few that changes its Innate.

A Dragoon/Warrior gone Prestige who uses Bonecrusher to trigger all of her Critical Effects (Follow-Through, Spellburst Items, Threaten, and Overdrive Limit Breaks).

A Blue Mage/Ninja who is really dang hard to hit, and then has a bunch of support from Chocoball and enough Time Mage for Mind Over Matter.

And a Paladin gone Prestige who, despite the fact that most of the game's opponents have a good two levels on them, still manages to keep the rest of the party alive despite them being made mostly of glass.

Anyways, feel free to take what you like and leave what you don't~ Without this system I wouldn't have spent an entire year of my party slowly uncovering a massive and complex plot involving witches, necromancers, and good-old fashioned political backstabbing.

[Bloody Jaws]

Oh! I checked the document and noticed these looked familiar.

Your comrade in arms in writing the revisions here posted the class changes to reddit. I linked it in the thread on the last page, the subreddit with THOSE changes

Yeah well i asked him to update the links on reddit and he said "lol i think I can't access it anymore, you'll have to link the updates manually" :P

And the prestige jobs from Lorkhan seem pretty interesting as well, we are doing massive brainstorming :D

[Ryoto]

Hello Dust and all of you. I was lurking around in this thread for a long time, but I have never wrote here. But now I have one question for Dust. In 2011, you had wrote something about ability trees, do you think you can implement it to your next update?

Because when I see final fantasy game, I think there should be something like sphere grid, license board or something. I think it can add more strategy and fun in leveling up your character.

When I was GMing "Final Fantasy RPG 3rd Edition" with that procentual system, my players were always stuck just with one class and ability aquiring was... you know what. So I was thinking in that time about some sphere grid, and I have created something, but we stopped playing, and my motivation for it was lost, so its unfinished, but I will post it here.

http://orig14.deviantart.net/52c9/f/2015/100/6/5/sphere_grid_by_ryotocz-d8p59gv.jpg

Its a big picture in 6400x6400, so if spoiler doesnt work, try this: http://ryotocz.deviantart.com/art/Sphere-Grid-525965359?ga_submit_new=10%253A1428664133
or direct link: http://orig14.deviantart.net/52c9/f/2015/100/6/5/sphere_grid_by_ryotocz-d8p59gv.jpg

I was planning to implement there even base attribute growth, similarly like in FFX (+2 STR, +1 AGI...) and spells, but it ended unfinished like this. :smallbiggrin:

So, what do you think about adding something like that? If you will add it, I can even volunteer to make it, under your instructions.

[steelsmiter]

Problem: As interesting an experiment as the 4 attribute points were, ultimately it felt like too many things defaulted to each individual stat.
Solution: TBD. I had previously written out a system wherein the current 4 attributes had moved back to the highly-suggested 5. However, Sasaisen's four-attribute summary of Might, Quickness, Willpower and Insight is inspiring and I'd like to talk over that math with him before finalizing decisions here.
Being able to combine a single stat for both magical and physical might will continue as a Shared Ability regardless. From there, how skills are handled will also require tweaking, although not as much as one might expect.
I completely stopped playing the game when mental and physical acumen were consolidated into the PWR stat. I would come back to it if there was a complete and thorough separation. I would not be opposed to the compromise of a shared ability for those that prefer the consolidated stat. Also, 5 stats was really awesome for me. Oh and more than 20 levels. Any number of levels more than 20. Less doesn't really feel epic, at least not to me, and Final Fantasy has always felt epic to me. Sorry.


Problem: The Goals system is abusable.
Solution: To be replaced instead by Purpose/Ideals (unsure of the naming scheme I'll be going with) which in turn power your Limit Breaks when threatened. See the following section for details.
Interesting, I will.


Problem: The Destiny Point system encouraged players to hoard these encounter-winning tokens, thus making it impossible to plan encounters.
Solution: The point system is being changed entirely, moving instead to two seperate mechanics. The first of these is the milestone system - several times throughout the campaign, the GM will be able to claim the PCs have hit a major milestone, at which point they can make larger, sweeping changes to their character.
Each Job will have one passive ability (Cover), one pre-built Limit Break (Invincible) and a handful of job-specific abilities (but no 'epic abilities'). Upon reaching a milestone, a character may choose to change jobs, 'master' their current job in order to augment the passive ability further, or build their own limit break while still keeping access to the one belonging to their Job.
Giving everyone Cover seems weird unless it's gimped in some way at the start (like Protect Girls) or some classes are the only ones that can achieve automatic success.


Limit points will be tracked separately, and will refresh at the start of each game. You obtain a limit point the first time each game whenever one of the following events occurs:
- The first time each adventure that you are severely weakened by an enemy - 25% health, hit with a majorly debilitating status effect such as petrification, etc.
- One point can be awarded for good rp/keeping the story moving (such as having your character believe a lie the player distrusts)
- An ally is killed.
- You gain up to one point per session whenever your PURPOSE/IDEALS (as listed on your sheet) are challenged/threatened or you actively work towards them.
I like this. I may yoink it for the Key Point based Limit Break system I'm working on FF3e.


Problem: Many of the Job Abilities are 'made-up' or from an obscure source.
Solution: The release of FFXIV, FFXV, Type-0, and the upcoming Heavensward expansion for the mmorpg all provide a far larger pool of well-known abilities to draw upon for naming conventions, and will provide a greater flexibility in a job's 'identity' when converted to the tabletop format. The goal is to reduce the list of abilities with no pre-existing parallel to 0.
Never really had a complaint about that. The wiki is nice in that regard, but as long as we don't have to go that route, it's cool.


Problem: Magic beats martial.
Solution: The initial design was for magic to be reliable and powerful at all stages of the game, where elemental weaknesses would be exploited for the equivalent of a 'guaranteed critical' for double damage. Conversely, martial fighters would be about 25% lower at all times but with the capacity to spike up and deal far larger amounts of damage on a critical hit or via personal limit breaks. Through revisions and poor planning, this initial idea was lost.
While returning to that base idea I will be removing the Time Mage job completely from the game and doing a total rewrite on the remaining four types of magic - White, Black, Blue, and Summoning.
Ick... I hope at least their spells are shuffled into other types of magic. The class had its ups and downs, but I would hate to see it go entirely. I'd prefer it not be eliminated at all, but I'm not without understanding in that regard.


For example, the Arcane weapon category, when equipped, will now cause you to deal one fewer damage step in combat at all times. However, they allow you to take spells which restore HP or deal direct elemental damage and change them from a Single target to a Group target at any time, simply by applying this same penalty and reducing their damage step by one. This will cut down on both the total number of spells as well as provide greater divisiveness between martial and magical characters as they must make decisions about specializations.
Yeah, I liked that about FFIX. One thing you might also look into is the possibility of reducing MP cost for something that is reduced in effectiveness by having LVL. X attached to it. So like a Lvl. 5 Death should be cheaper than any ol' death. You could specify point breaks, like Level 3 death would occur at more levels than level 5 Death, but less than Death unhindered by levels and thus have a different point break. I don't know, maybe that's overthinking it.


Problem: Dual-Wielding, man. Like, are you ****in' kidding me?
Solution: I had always claimed that it would be the penultimate trade-off by choosing to be a true glass cannon, purchasing two weapons instead of a weapon and armor. I was absolutely wrong.
Weapons will gain fewer properties overall, Armor will gain more,
I'm down


each character will be able to equip two accessories instead of one, and an accessory-only property will be introduced that grants the wearer ARM or M.ARM as if it was a shield of the same tier to represent defensive 'guard' items, which will be discussed greatly.
I was OK with just one accessory, but there's a lot of different effective "slots" that could be used like belts, rings, boots, and so forth. I also think that with 2 accessory slots, you don't really need a separate shield slot as such if they would now count as shield items. I've got no particularly strong feelings on this issue though.


Classes which currently do not have access to Dual-Wielding or Shields will gain access to them, but the idea of 'handiness' will not exist. You can still use a massive lance and a shield simultaneously.
I don't like that, while at the same time I want to play a 9 year old girl that dual wields greatswords. Actually quite a few of my characters use 2 handed weapons so removing the potential for a weapon to be so large it needs two hands eliminates a concept for me. Or if anyone can use any weapon essentially one handed, using it two handed significantly downplays that.


Problem: The PDF is ugly, and also, enormous.
Solution: Art has been commissioned to replace the less-attractive portions of the book (such as the crystals by each job ability) and this next revision will have a heavy focus on visual appeal, as well as the complete removal of the monster creation section to be added to the half-finished Bestiary that already exists.
I liked most of the art, but not all of it. One of the major reasons I picked up the system was for its monster creation system. I would be disappointed if I couldn't create my own monsters.


I can't provide any hard and fast deadlines, but for the next three months of my life I'm free 24 hours a day and this is my priority. We'll be treating this project like a graphic designer treats a client - with hands-on updates in rapid intervals instead of long silences with a 'wait and see' approach.
Awesome.

[Soultastic]

I still maintain that removing Time Mage kind of unsettles me.

A time mage is more a dimensional/spatial/time mage according to the wording used in japanese, hence why they have such moves as meteor as well as enervate. They pull objects from another 'space' and use it to fight. That also works with the chrono pocket, which is another dimension altogether for them to store their equipment.

I liked the entire idea, though their abilities aren't necessarily elemental aligned. But, to be fair, Blue Mage doesn't seem elementally aligned either. Nor does Geomancer. That's why I feel it's a but... strange to remove Time Mage. I think there's still a nice niche for the class to fill.

That and I'm a huge fan of them. ~_~

[Rikiaz]

I still maintain that removing Time Mage kind of unsettles me.

A time mage is more a dimensional/spatial/time mage according to the wording used in japanese, hence why they have such moves as meteor as well as enervate. They pull objects from another 'space' and use it to fight. That also works with the chrono pocket, which is another dimension altogether for them to store their equipment.

I liked the entire idea, though their abilities aren't necessarily elemental aligned. But, to be fair, Blue Mage doesn't seem elementally aligned either. Nor does Geomancer. That's why I feel it's a but... strange to remove Time Mage. I think there's still a nice niche for the class to fill.

That and I'm a huge fan of them. ~_~

I agree with this post. Time Mages are, in my opinion, the most interesting job in the entire Final Fantasy multiverse, with Blue Mage being a distant second. My friends and I are likely to homebrew it in anyway if you do remove it.

[Bloody Jaws]

With the fixes we attempted Time mage should be more playable now (and with that i mean less overpowered oriented (and with that I mean less abusing on comet spell >.<). We also tried to balance some of the spells we considered the most "useless" compared to their preferable counterparts. About the matter concerning the fact that MAGIC>MARTIAL well, i personally found some ways to stay behind magic classes until levels 9-10, then it clearly became obvious that i could not stay on the same level of a mage with a samurai.
Then i realized that it wasn't necessarily needed; our master set up kinds of boss battles that would make a mage alone last for half turn alone,so it became clear that what we needed was a more classical approach on the party setup.
And that's why now almost every MELEE class has job abilities that allow to:

- taunt, being it easier to do depending on the primary role of the job
- reinforce themselves and/or support their team, allowing more hits to be taken without feeling powerless

I believe the only thing that really needs to be improved is the variety/flexibility on some of the classes, opening for new combinations depending on the skillset chosen, thus adding diversity when a player decides to pick again the same class but with a different approach. The only way it can be done is by creating new abilities, and I admit it was pretty hard to come up with something original and at the same time "balanced".

I hope Dust will find the time to read some of our document :P

[Lorkhan]

I...wha... Could you explain, precisely, how you 'balanced' Magic and Martial characters with your changelist? Because I don't see it. You actually made Comet stronger. Spells aren't reduced in damage at all. Mind Over Matter and Charismagic -two of the strongest Abilities in the game- still exist. Paladins are buffed by everyone else having more HP. All the Mages got just as much 'new' stuff as everyone else, keeping the curve constant. I really don't see how you can claim that this brings casters down, or martials up enough?

Furthermore, you're comparing apples to oranges, but then only trying to change their color to make them match. Or to put it another way, all of your changes are more 'this is a neat idea' rather than having balance in mind. For example, including the above:
-Tripping and Grapple simultaneously make Large even more pointless, and mean Monstrous Foes either have to invest everything in Force or get stun-locked by a PWR/RES melee character without anything they can do about it. And you also made Huge Weapons mostly pointless.
-You removed all the Accuracy Penalty Attacks, and decreased everyone's Accuracy... but you also decreased all monster's AVD. This is Sum Zero, aside from slightly boosting Skitterish. Seems a lot of trouble to me for nothing.
-Geomancer retains the cheesy Forest/Underground Stat*(Level) Geotrances. Heck you made Forest better.

I'm not saying there aren't good ideas in there. I'm saying most of it either flat out doesn't fix anything, or any impact it might have had becomes pointless due to other changes. Like Initiative? What, precisely, is wrong with the 'We go, they go' format? How is that damaging, and how is Initiative superior?

Whatever flaws are in the system, your homebrew fixes don't actually change. Whatever improvements there are to 'weak' Jobs are overwhelmed by similar boosts to 'strong' Jobs. And really, all the Jobs are actually fairly fantastic if played right. Dragoon is arguably the only one with issues, and even their minor schizophrenia is manageable if you play your cards right and plan ahead.

Anyways, I apologize if I come off as ranty. I'm just stuck questioning 'Why?'. On a lighter note, we both clearly had some similar ideas in (Al)Chemist as a Job.

[Soultastic]

I agree with this post. Time Mages are, in my opinion, the most interesting job in the entire Final Fantasy multiverse, with Blue Mage being a distant second. My friends and I are likely to homebrew it in anyway if you do remove it.

Funny you should mention that. My Time Mage I play has crossed into Blue Mage territory in our current session.

And, as you said, for the game I'm in, it'll be homebrewed back in if it's removed outright. If we convert to the newer system we'll likely just 'make time mage work' since it's already established in our game.

This said, I look forward to see changes regardless.

---

One thing me and a few friends can agree on is our lack of understanding the oddities of Black Mage as well. It seems you need to either have bad stats across the board to use as many spells as possible, or just dump stats into a normal pool and not use some of the other useable spells. Also there seems to be a lack of the abiltiy to pick up a lot of spells as Black Mage. Black Mages are meant to be utility on top of elemental spell masters.

It's hard to justify having multiple elemental spells when you have a limited spell slot and some spells use DEX instead of PWR and then at times something will call for you to use MND. It's hard to have three stats boosted up enough that you can switch between something like Fira and Thunder when they use opposing stats.

I thought monsters having elemental resistances and weaknesses was enough to cause someone to have to swap spells on their Black Mage. If you don't pick up Thunder due to the inability to pick up more spells and with your DEX not being particularly high, it really hurts when something resists anything you do and you lack utility spells due to the spell slot limitations stacked on top of that.

---

Sorry, that's my ten cents, since I've shared more than just one opinion. :)

[Rikiaz]

One thing me and a few friends can agree on is our lack of understanding the oddities of Black Mage as well. It seems you need to either have bad stats across the board to use as many spells as possible, or just dump stats into a normal pool and not use some of the other useable spells. Also there seems to be a lack of the abiltiy to pick up a lot of spells as Black Mage. Black Mages are meant to be utility on top of elemental spell masters.

It's hard to justify having multiple elemental spells when you have a limited spell slot and some spells use DEX instead of PWR and then at times something will call for you to use MND. It's hard to have three stats boosted up enough that you can switch between something like Fira and Thunder when they use opposing stats.

I thought monsters having elemental resistances and weaknesses was enough to cause someone to have to swap spells on their Black Mage. If you don't pick up Thunder due to the inability to pick up more spells and with your DEX not being particularly high, it really hurts when something resists anything you do and you lack utility spells due to the spell slot limitations stacked on top of that.

---

Sorry, that's my ten cents, since I've shared more than just one opinion. :)

Yeah I agree. My playgroup have errata'd all damaging Black Magic to use PWR and added this ability to the Black Mage

Achilles:
Achilles is a slow action that causes the target to become more susceptible to an element of your choice. It reduces the target's resistance to the chosen element by one step (Immune/Absorb > Resist > Normal > Vulnerable > Weak)

[Lorkhan]

Except, only the Thunder Spells use DEX for Black Magic Damage, and only up to Thundara for anything approaching a concern. And even then only for Group Casting. The only Black Magic that uses MND for Damage is Doomsday, and it's both optional and only if the foe makes a 21+ Roll or is immune to instant death.

The way I see it, it makes it so a Black Mage can -if they want to- not be forced to go all in on PWR. They could be a Finesse based Caster, with high MND and DEX and stick to Lightning and Opposed Debuffs. As for Stats, they really only need PWR, with a slight emphasis on MND and RES. Even with a measly 2MND, a Lv15 Black Mage can still cast Scathe or Break.

Personally, I errata'd in all spells to use their Element to determine what stat they use for damage. Eight Elements, Four Stats; made sense to me. And it encourages Mages to either specialize in what they do, or generalize and be able to do multiple things. Considering the Black Mage eventually gets to hit for upwards of 1200 Damage with Ultima, if anything they should be encouraged to diversify rather than just dump everything into PWR and then do two to three times as much damage as everyone else with relative impunity. Ethers are only 20gil, after all, and Mega PWR Black Mages can easily end up like 3.5 Casters; a majority of combat decisions on the GM's part ends up revolving around neutralizing their advantage without crippling the other players.

[Soultastic]

I wasn't looking at the book when I was making my post. I was just recalling from memory, but you get the gist of what I was saying. :) It just seems your stats as a black mage need to be all over the board if you want to use certain spells.

[Rikiaz]

Except, only the Thunder Spells use DEX for Black Magic Damage, and only up to Thundara for anything approaching a concern. And even then only for Group Casting. The only Black Magic that uses MND for Damage is Doomsday, and it's both optional and only if the foe makes a 21+ Roll or is immune to instant death.

The way I see it, it makes it so a Black Mage can -if they want to- not be forced to go all in on PWR. They could be a Finesse based Caster, with high MND and DEX and stick to Lightning and Opposed Debuffs. As for Stats, they really only need PWR, with a slight emphasis on MND and RES. Even with a measly 2MND, a Lv15 Black Mage can still cast Scathe or Break.

Personally, I errata'd in all spells to use their Element to determine what stat they use for damage. Eight Elements, Four Stats; made sense to me. And it encourages Mages to either specialize in what they do, or generalize and be able to do multiple things. Considering the Black Mage eventually gets to hit for upwards of 1200 Damage with Ultima, if anything they should be encouraged to diversify rather than just dump everything into PWR and then do two to three times as much damage as everyone else with relative impunity. Ethers are only 20gil, after all, and Mega PWR Black Mages can easily end up like 3.5 Casters; a majority of combat decisions on the GM's part ends up revolving around neutralizing their advantage without crippling the other players.

I understand your point, but at the same time Red Mage is just completely better at a debuffer. Most Black Magic status spells are opposed Force checks not Finesse. Ultima may do huge damage but it also requires three Destiny to not destroy your party. Which means less Job Changing and less cherry picking abilities which means no Mind over Matter, which hurts Finesse Black Mages even more. Also, at least in my game, the GM can just give monsters MP Damage stuff. Even if a monster Rasps you for 1 MP you can't cast Ultima. Finally, addressing your two elements per stat, having damage spells scale off MND is a bad idea, as shown by how utterly broken Charismagic is. Speaking of Charismagic, my group have errata'd it to make spells scale off DEX and not affect weapons. It has worked out much better than the original.

[Lorkhan]

3 things.

1) No Black Magic explicitly uses Force for Opposed Rolls. They're all just Opposed Rolls, with no emphasis on Secondary Stat usage.
2) Changing what Stat Charismagic uses does not really change its effectiveness for Red Mages. If you make it all RES, you get Mages with massive HP Pools. All MND, massive MP Pools. All DEX? Congrats, dodgy Mages, with Dodgy Ruse, and Dodgy Invisible. And either massive Finesse if they just go MND/DEX, or the same it normally would be for a Red Mage (RES/MND for HP/MP/Damage)
3) Changing Elements to be the keys for Spell Stat Usage does change the effectiveness of Charismagic. Here's a breakdown of my logic behind splitting the Elements:
PWR for Fire, Shadow, and most Non-Elementals not stated otherwise; and which are the core of the classical 'Fire and Destruction' Black Mage.
RES for Earth and Water, one of which entire groups of enemies just flat out are immune to and the other which is normally circumstantially good, not heavily rewarding HP Bloat Mages but giving them a space to call their own.
DEX for Wind and Lightning, one of which already used DEX and the other of which happily goes hand-in-hand with Lightning thematically.
MND for Ice and Holy; Ice being as circumstantial as its more solid brother, and with all Cure Spells keying off of MND anyways the only spells actively changed are Holy, Dia(ga), and Flare Star.

Basically, Spellcasters are either encouraged to broaden their stats to put the variety of their spell lists to better usage, or to specialize and come to terms with the fact that being generally more powerful has the risk of sometimes being less powerful than normal. Charismagic is still fairly good, it lets a Red Mage use Fire/Ice/Shadow/Holy equally, letting them bring opposite elements into alignment. But it isn't the end-all be-all because it's still a heavy specialization for the Spellhungry Red Mage whose normal name is diversification and unpredictability.

And, again, a mage doesn't have to invest much in MND if they continue to invest in BigAlchema and buy Ethers. It's helpful, but it's not necessary. Changing Charismagic to use DEX instead just means Red Mages don't need PWR anymore; another nail in the coffin of the least-useful-Attribute. It's an interesting change, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree since I'm naturally prejudiced towards my own solution.

[Rikiaz]

3 things.

1) No Black Magic explicitly uses Force for Opposed Rolls. They're all just Opposed Rolls, with no emphasis on Secondary Stat usage.
2) Changing what Stat Charismagic uses does not really change its effectiveness for Red Mages. If you make it all RES, you get Mages with massive HP Pools. All MND, massive MP Pools. All DEX? Congrats, dodgy Mages, with Dodgy Ruse, and Dodgy Invisible. And either massive Finesse if they just go MND/DEX, or the same it normally would be for a Red Mage (RES/MND for HP/MP/Damage)
3) Changing Elements to be the keys for Spell Stat Usage does change the effectiveness of Charismagic. Here's a breakdown of my logic behind splitting the Elements:
PWR for Fire, Shadow, and most Non-Elementals not stated otherwise; and which are the core of the classical 'Fire and Destruction' Black Mage.
RES for Earth and Water, one of which entire groups of enemies just flat out are immune to and the other which is normally circumstantially good, not heavily rewarding HP Bloat Mages but giving them a space to call their own.
DEX for Wind and Lightning, one of which already used DEX and the other of which happily goes hand-in-hand with Lightning thematically.
MND for Ice and Holy; Ice being as circumstantial as its more solid brother, and with all Cure Spells keying off of MND anyways the only spells actively changed are Holy, Dia(ga), and Flare Star.

Basically, Spellcasters are either encouraged to broaden their stats to put the variety of their spell lists to better usage, or to specialize and come to terms with the fact that being generally more powerful has the risk of sometimes being less powerful than normal. Charismagic is still fairly good, it lets a Red Mage use Fire/Ice/Shadow/Holy equally, letting them bring opposite elements into alignment. But it isn't the end-all be-all because it's still a heavy specialization for the Spellhungry Red Mage whose normal name is diversification and unpredictability.

And, again, a mage doesn't have to invest much in MND if they continue to invest in BigAlchema and buy Ethers. It's helpful, but it's not necessary. Changing Charismagic to use DEX instead just means Red Mages don't need PWR anymore; another nail in the coffin of the least-useful-Attribute. It's an interesting change, but I think we'll have to agree to disagree since I'm naturally prejudiced towards my own solution.

1) Page 156 "Generally, when a spell or attack attempts to cause a Status Effect, the victim has a chance to resist the effects. This often entails an opposed roll between the target and the user of the status effect. Most of the time, status effects require an opposed Force roll, representing very physical, tangible and material changes in the target. Status ailments that are opposed completely on an emotional or mental level and require an opposed Finesse roll are more rare, but might include things such as Charm or Confuse. Which type of opposed roll will be used is ultimately up to the GM’s jurisdiction."

Yes it is up to the GM, but most of the time it should be Force for every Black Magic status aside from Berserk. Doesn't mean it has to be, but also doesn't mean that every GM is going to let you use either. My GM only lets us use Finesse for mental statuses.

2) and 3) Upon further thought, I do agree with these, for the most part. I don't like making them spread their stats too much, but your reasoning is sound and it's actually an interesting idea. Though there is still the problem that it makes mages a one-stat class. Ultimately I think it's best that ability be fundamentally changed.

[Kiton2]

First, congratulations on your free time (I had similar freedom several months and a hard-drive full of passwords,etc ago - thus the 2 on the name). I liked the project, balance issues aside, and would like to chime in as well as offer help, if you need playtesting or numbercrunching. Boredom, spreadsheets and net traffic too heavily monitored to have any fun at work means maths can sometimes pass the time![quote]Problem: Many of the Jobs and abilities suffer balancing issues.
This was the big one, I think. Charismagic made the Red Mage BEST, "permanently increase stats" made white mages and dark knights insane, Dragoons couldn't do damage if they jumped, and blue and time mages couldn't cast their currently-highest-level spells without a heavy investment in MND or equipment, not even once in many cases, which black/white/red had no such issues with. Geomancers were also in a bloody hole (aside from one or two specific exploits), because let's never forget that lava don't do much to fire elementals, and is even less impressive when your special ability hits about as hard as your weapon does! I've got... some ideas in regards to engineers, but that depends on whether people like magitek.

In regards to Attributes I totally back the 'five' as well. Well personally I'd see six or seven, but I like too much complexity sometimes.
To be replaced instead by Purpose That can work; FF characters are often rather 'dimensionally challenged' so this could be made to work by having a specific limit gauge with activators. These would allow building it up separately from the usual point expenditure, so even if you've spent everything, you might still manage to pull one out if things have been going counter to your tastes enough. Some rare specific situation/condition for out of combat, and a more 'standard' from a list (could be class based) build-up in combat.

Example: an ex train-conductor might have extreme issues and horrific flashbacks whenever he sees someone do a wrestling move, and doubly so if a supplex. His trip to the gym that day not only had him seeing red, but also gave him two ticks on, maybe a five charge per level affair. That's his out-of-combat limit builder.

Combat would work as you've stated, priming limits off terrible things or killing blows, perhaps depending on the class. A paladin snaps when the back row goes down despite his best efforts, but a black mage might instead spool-up from slaughtering the mooks around a boss.

Hoarding destiny points was definitely an issue. Those points to feed abilities, limits, etc... probably still going to get either hoarded or cause limits to be ignored depending on how many you need for what - due to the refreshing system. I'd suggest going a bit more 'Fate Points' with the system; separate from regular limit accumulation, destiny are your "change a roll, power an ability" (though perhaps somewhere one can obtain a limit break converter ability/item/whatever), and refresh to a base level, not 0 between sessions. MAJOR milestones can increase it by 1 or recover (same thing really) one burnt from something like party-wipe recovery. TPK? everyone that can burn one burns one permanently, allowing the defeat to be one of those "plot battles scripted for you to lose". If for some reason the numbers get uneven, anyone with 0... well... sometimes someone gets Galuf'd.
Solution: The release of FFXIV Arcanist/summoner is sad at highest levels. Those carbuncles and Egi are cute and all, but they do lack the major combat summoning aspect. That's not really what makes things sad though: DPS is just not good enough on summoners by late coils. Well, it's fine once built up, but too many mechanics require instant Flaring or the such and can't wait for Shadowflare, Miasma II, Bio II, Miasma, Bio and your pet to tick it through. When Black mages do a bit more DPS AND can do it as instantly as needed... this is depressing just get me my mechanist already.
While returning to that base idea I will be removing the Time Mage job completely from the game and doing a total rewrite on the remaining four types of magic - White, Black, Blue, and Summoning.
For example, the Arcane weapon category, when equipped, will now cause you to deal one fewer damage step in combat at all times. However, they allow you to take spells which restore HP or deal direct elemental damage and change them from a Single target to a Group target at any time, simply by applying this same penalty and reducing their damage step by one. But but muh TIMES! Well, Blue could use a bit of help/work too; their abilities were kinda limited, and MOST of their spells well below what other mages can do. They had a few exploits, mind, but better if near everything is worth taking, rather than everything worth tossing just electrocute, right?
dual wield, shields One big problem there was that for classes that can't use shields nor dual-wield, you can get seriously left behind. too many buffs and abilities on too many items made getting something in each far too valuable. I'm not sure if "filling the slot" is the proper fix, but something definitely needed to be done.

Anyways, that's one more set of complaints/comments/suggestions.

[Lorkhan]

True. I tend to forget I actively encouraged my players to come up with the most frustrating builds possible including a Blue Mage with the horrendous combo of Mind Over Matter, Charismagic, and Evade Magic. But at the same time my game is both high-power and high-difficulty. My players need every advantage they can get when the average boss is 2-3 levels higher than them. Or they have to play rocket-tag with NPCs, because War of the Lions is funtimes like that.

On a more related note... Why not take Time Magic, rename it Green Magic (FFXII/FFTA2), and make it the Big Mix of Buffs and Non-Elemental Spells ala what is Arcane Magic in most games? It lets you shift away from the thematically-limited Time Mage towards a Job that abstains from the pettiness of White and Black Magic, and the uncouthness of Blue. Plus, color schemes! You don't even need to get rid of all the Time Mage Abilities; some just need renaming and refluffing. And as an added bonus it's a chance to get rid of Mind Over Matter once and for all.

Green Mage for 2016! :smallwink:

[Rikiaz]

True. I tend to forget I actively encouraged my players to come up with the most frustrating builds possible including a Blue Mage with the horrendous combo of Mind Over Matter, Charismagic, and Evade Magic. But at the same time my game is both high-power and high-difficulty. My players need every advantage they can get when the average boss is 2-3 levels higher than them. Or they have to play rocket-tag with NPCs, because War of the Lions is funtimes like that.

On a more related note... Why not take Time Magic, rename it Green Magic (FFXII/FFTA2), and make it the Big Mix of Buffs and Non-Elemental Spells ala what is Arcane Magic in most games? It lets you shift away from the thematically-limited Time Mage towards a Job that abstains from the pettiness of White and Black Magic, and the uncouthness of Blue. Plus, color schemes! You don't even need to get rid of all the Time Mage Abilities; some just need renaming and refluffing. And as an added bonus it's a chance to get rid of Mind Over Matter once and for all.

Green Mage for 2016! :smallwink:

While I definitely support a Green Mage class, I don't think it would be a good replacement for Time Mage. I feel Arcanist would be better as a replacement, Green Mage should be standalone.

[Kiton2]

We'd definitely be looking at a 'pet' class then, as arcanist/FFXIV-version-Summoner is pretty vested in the Carbuncle or Egi.

This does, however bring one other interesting aspect/possibility with it: XIII or XIV style status ailments. One thing that's always plagued the older final fantasies was the utter worthlessness - generally speaking - of status effects. They were, to put it bluntly, "**** that happens to you", and rarely ever "things done to the enemy". Anything that wasn't outright immune was probably dead if you'd cast Fir2 instead. Even the few exceptions were pretty much placed there purely as 'secret' ways to take something down, more akin to an exploit or bug than anything remotely resembling a valid reason for the status ability to take up valuable room in your list of things you can do.

Most of the tabletop RPGs were no better, and I distinctly remember even the debuff-heavy classes/ability-sets in the FFRPG editions being damn near useless half the time or more. Anything above "complete and utter mook, will die in an average hit" was immune to death, and anything demiboss or higher was immune to seals, transforms, death and a number of others. What few things worked, if any, usually had nothing to do with the boss' abilities, like a purely physical boss being mute-able... and even then.

XIII brought us a neat 'stacking', build-up mechanic that allowed a far larger number of them to operate, especially in regards to bosses. I hadn't seen status effects worth using since the % weakeners in Skies of Arcadia!

XIV of course, being an MMO, has very very little in terms of status immunity, but resistances of course apply to harder controls. Still, it's often worth using - if only as an interrupt instead of multiple-seconds-of-screw-you an ability might be worth against a normal enemy. And DoTs and soft debuffs? The Bios and Miasmas and Aeros and Viruses and Heavies and Slows? They work. They work, and I don't think anyone could ever make the claim that status effects working on bosses in XIV makes them a cakewalk compared to if you simply had twice as much Black Mage.

The Log Horizon TRPG also has an interesting mechanic in regards to status effects one could be inspired by: as an MMO 'simulation' most enemies are not in fact immune to controls - sometimes even hard controls - but you either let it tick away naturally, or spend actions to break it. In this way, a boss might have, say, three major actions in a turn, but because you've got him under reinforced stacks of sleep and immobilize, getting out of it eats two of his actions on a turn. A character's main job might be to force catch-22s in this way, keeping the big bastard from slaughtering the tank. It all works out just fine when games work from "this can actually be done"!

So whether it's taking effect at a lesser level of power one might wish to build up over time, or whether immunities are few and far between, but the stuff that works can be broken out of by spending valuable chunks of your turn, we could have a solid and amusing system of Mezzes and Debuffs that lets even the time mage feel useful outside of "I spam haste and meteo", without being fatally hobbled without gamebreaking power in the one thing it can actually do in practice.

Or maybe it's just wishful thinking?


edit: Oh. And GRAVITY. Gravity was in a lot of cases considered a 'death' class status AND given hard "no matter what even if you can break the damage limit gravity effects can't", expensive AND inaccurate "because of its potential power" (which it doesn't actually have due to its limitations), so Gravity abilities in the tabletops were bloody pathetic!

[Rikiaz]

We'd definitely be looking at a 'pet' class then, as arcanist/FFXIV-version-Summoner is pretty vested in the Carbuncle or Egi.

Oh cool. I was thinking of the Arcanist from FFTA2, since I've never played XIV.

[Bloody Jaws]

I...wha... Could you explain, precisely, how you 'balanced' Magic and Martial characters with your changelist?
Yikes! Pal you pratically slapped me in the face with that post!
Alright sorry for being late but i owe you some explanations on what we did there.




You actually made Comet stronger.
Wrong. We raised it to MND x4 because now EVERY comet hit damage is reduced by Marm instead of applying it at the total of the damage done. By applying a simple combat test you see how much the damage is reduced, and, boy, it's a LOT.



Spells aren't reduced in damage at all. Mind Over Matter and Charismagic -two of the strongest Abilities in the game- still exist. Paladins are buffed by everyone else having more HP. All the Mages got just as much 'new' stuff as everyone else, keeping the curve constant. I really don't see how you can claim that this brings casters down, or martials up enough?
Ok the problem here is common: the idea that casters are better at dealing damage than martial is a common idea, because in almost EVERY existing RPG, a mage is the classic gracile/old/nerdish man/woman, that could not stand even a slap on their butt as damage; but in exchange they deal massive amounts of damage and that's why they are often referred as "glass cannons" by putting mages at the same DAMAGE level as any other martial class, you could easily decide to remove their mana pool and make them just spam their abilities/spells. Instead i believe that if a mage is constantly in danger, be it for a failed taunt from a melee class or a big number of foes, he will make decisions according to the current given challenge. That's why we didn't really bring down mages, instead we gave some more diversity (we didn't touch many and many of them because most were fine by us) in the usage by touching some of the spells.


Furthermore, you're comparing apples to oranges, but then only trying to change their color to make them match. Or to put it another way, all of your changes are more 'this is a neat idea' rather than having balance in mind. For example, including the above:
-Tripping and Grapple simultaneously make Large even more pointless, and mean Monstrous Foes either have to invest everything in Force or get stun-locked by a PWR/RES melee character without anything they can do about it. And you also made Huge Weapons mostly pointless.
-You removed all the Accuracy Penalty Attacks, and decreased everyone's Accuracy... but you also decreased all monster's AVD. This is Sum Zero, aside from slightly boosting Skitterish. Seems a lot of trouble to me for nothing.
-Geomancer retains the cheesy Forest/Underground Stat*(Level) Geotrances. Heck you made Forest better.

-On tripping and Grapple i had some arguments with my pal because i felt it was not necessary but ended up in adding it anyway, in fact i didn't put much attention to it and it ended up being utterly useless, i apologize for that, maybe somebody might find some fixes to make it better though as it might add up to game diversity.
-The idea on changing accuracy and AVD was guided by the fact that they scaled with levels and almost nothing could be done about it. My plan was to enchance its scaling with DEX without making DEX based characters impossible to be hit by melee foes, it ended up like this, but i could have done better to improve its mechanic and will probably do so because I WANT AVD/ACC to be useful stats for everyone.
-Geomancer is.. well a strange class indeed, but we decided to leave it as it was because we deemed it useful enough, without the need to make him more mage/like (remember that he does NOT use mana for his attacks) including forest and underground, that could be easily pumped up if necessary though (any ideas are welcome)


I'm not saying there aren't good ideas in there.
Well, you didn't really endorse any of them <.<


I'm saying most of it either flat out doesn't fix anything, or any impact it might have had becomes pointless due to other changes. Like Initiative? What, precisely, is wrong with the 'We go, they go' format? How is that damaging, and how is Initiative superior?
Some of them may appear pointless but believe me, after many tests they end up being very good ideas; just not every one, no one is perfect.
On the initiative matter.. well.. we changed absolutely nothing except specifying the "change in finesse" matter, meaning that if someone lowers your finesse during combat, your initiative order is changing accordingly. That does not seem very strange, but more logical to me (I slow you, you are slower on your movements including initiative)



Whatever flaws are in the system, your homebrew fixes don't actually change. Whatever improvements there are to 'weak' Jobs are overwhelmed by similar boosts to 'strong' Jobs. And really, all the Jobs are actually fairly fantastic if played right. Dragoon is arguably the only one with issues, and even their minor schizophrenia is manageable if you play your cards right and plan ahead.
Starting with the fact that the target was to help players that felt some game rules to be in need of a "rebalance", and that i believe that we actually did something nice for real, i agree that, depending on the kind of challenges that your GM puts you into, every job is playable. Then the problem of some classes being "more powerful" than others does not exist, making all the "mages op jobs/spells" point a contraddiction.
That's why we didn't want to really change the gameplay by only "nerfing" something, but the effort was spent on increasing the game variety by adding some mechanics, and making some of the most used on par with others that were by our humble opinion utterly ignored. After saying that, of course we didnt make these rules "official", they are just some guidedlines, often tested on our very game sessions, that make this great game system even more enjoyable with our personal touch.
I agree of course that we did not explain clearly enough some things inside the DOCs, sorry about that we did it on our free time and we could have spent more on them :(
I personally plan on doing even more by completing my summoner class and eventually changing the summons on their very core, but that's also why we still didn't post it yet, we didnt want the people to feel something they liked completely changed/removed

[Lorkhan]

Yikes! Pal you pratically slapped me in the face with that post!
Alright sorry for being late but i owe you some explanations on what we did there.




Wrong. We raised it to MND x4 because now EVERY comet hit damage is reduced by Marm instead of applying it at the total of the damage done. By applying a simple combat test you see how much the damage is reduced, and, boy, it's a LOT.



Ok the problem here is common: the idea that casters are better at dealing damage than martial is a common idea, because in almost EVERY existing RPG, a mage is the classic gracile/old/nerdish man/woman, that could not stand even a slap on their butt as damage; but in exchange they deal massive amounts of damage and that's why they are often referred as "glass cannons" by putting mages at the same DAMAGE level as any other martial class, you could easily decide to remove their mana pool and make them just spam their abilities/spells. Instead i believe that if a mage is constantly in danger, be it for a failed taunt from a melee class or a big number of foes, he will make decisions according to the current given challenge. That's why we didn't really bring down mages, instead we gave some more diversity (we didn't touch many and many of them because most were fine by us) in the usage by touching some of the spells.



-On tripping and Grapple i had some arguments with my pal because i felt it was not necessary but ended up in adding it anyway, in fact i didn't put much attention to it and it ended up being utterly useless, i apologize for that, maybe somebody might find some fixes to make it better though as it might add up to game diversity.
-The idea on changing accuracy and AVD was guided by the fact that they scaled with levels and almost nothing could be done about it. My plan was to enchance its scaling with DEX without making DEX based characters impossible to be hit by melee foes, it ended up like this, but i could have done better to improve its mechanic and will probably do so because I WANT AVD/ACC to be useful stats for everyone.
-Geomancer is.. well a strange class indeed, but we decided to leave it as it was because we deemed it useful enough, without the need to make him more mage/like (remember that he does NOT use mana for his attacks) including forest and underground, that could be easily pumped up if necessary though (any ideas are welcome)


Well, you didn't really endorse any of them <.<


Some of them may appear pointless but believe me, after many tests they end up being very good ideas; just not every one, no one is perfect.
On the initiative matter.. well.. we changed absolutely nothing except specifying the "change in finesse" matter, meaning that if someone lowers your finesse during combat, your initiative order is changing accordingly. That does not seem very strange, but more logical to me (I slow you, you are slower on your movements including initiative)



Starting with the fact that the target was to help players that felt some game rules to be in need of a "rebalance", and that i believe that we actually did something nice for real, i agree that, depending on the kind of challenges that your GM puts you into, every job is playable. Then the problem of some classes being "more powerful" than others does not exist, making all the "mages op jobs/spells" point a contraddiction.
That's why we didn't want to really change the gameplay by only "nerfing" something, but the effort was spent on increasing the game variety by adding some mechanics, and making some of the most used on par with others that were by our humble opinion utterly ignored. After saying that, of course we didnt make these rules "official", they are just some guidedlines, often tested on our very game sessions, that make this great game system even more enjoyable with our personal touch.
I agree of course that we did not explain clearly enough some things inside the DOCs, sorry about that we did it on our free time and we could have spent more on them :(
I personally plan on doing even more by completing my summoner class and eventually changing the summons on their very core, but that's also why we still didn't post it yet, we didnt want the people to feel something they liked completely changed/removed

Ah, I'm sorry! I didn't mean to come across as rude, just severely questioning. Because in comparing what you say you set out to do with what you did, several discrepancies arise.

For example, isn't Comet already reduced multiple times by MArm? I don't see why it wouldn't, in the same vein that any Multihit Limit Break has to deal with M/Arm for each 'hit', or a Warrior using Meteorain doesn't just throw in the damage of all their Attacks combined against Armor. Though in the end that boils down to a GM's ruling, I suppose. It just seems to me that it's purely a matter of interpreting the rules.

Your second point though is just the same argument against, say, 3.5 Wizards. "They're squishy, and the Martials should protect them." Except that given any Mage can invest in, say, PWR and RES and do just fine, they are only squishy if the player decides to play them that way. Furthermore, you run into the same scenario that you're assuming Martials are fine with being arguably encouraged to play Tanks or Aggro Management to protect the Casters, which isn't always true. And what happens if you get a Mageless Party? Or a Party of all Mages?
I'm not saying this is a bad approach, I'm saying this is an approach that needs more thought put into it.

The issue with Geomancers that everyone seems to overlook is that a Geomancer with Geowareness and Home Terrain (Underground or Forest) hits for Level(Stat) NE Damage each Action if they want to. Compared to other Jobs, they pretty much always hit about twice as hard with -what amounts to- their Basic Attack. A Geomancer can go full RES and a dash of PWR or DEX, pick Underground, and out DPS the Dark Knight while out Healing the White Mage. This is, in my opinion, very silly and easily rectified. But I guess at that point in the post I was mindlessly nitpicking everything I disagreed with, including being what was in hindsight incredibly petty and pointing out what I considered easy flaws a set of rule 'fixes' should cover.

My issue with Initiative is solely a personal one, in the vein of 'If it's not broken why fix it and then make it more complicated?' My own view of Combat in FFd6 is that it should be both fast-paced and encourage players to discuss 'Their Turn' amongst themselves, similar to how in a regular FF Game you lock in everyone's actions and then go to town on your opponents. The Death mechanic is similar. A GM that kills PCs without working it through with them beforehand or giving some warning that 'This fight can have lethal consequences' is a bad GM. Changing the mechanic to purely damage based... doesn't really add anything. If the GM wants to kill a character, the character is going to die. Be it to an appropriately dramatic Lich, a bomb going off, or rocks falling from the ceiling.

And I'm not saying that anyone needs to 'Nerf' Mages to bring them in line. True, some abilities are ridiculously good compared to others. True, Magic outdamages Melee in every scenario excepting Haste'd Martials; which is generally only a bit before Mages get Ancient Spells anyways. But you could easily 'Buff' Martials up so that they don't have to rely on Mages for Damage. You added options, which is good, but the majority of the options you added for Martial Jobs can be cynically summed up as 'Quick! Protect the Mage, for He is more important than the brick wall that is you!', which is... well it's neither good nor bad. But it doesn't fix anything that can be considered an issue.
The previous version of FFd6 gave out Damage Multipliers to pretty much every Martial Job, which does fix many issues. That's an example of a way to balance Mages and Martials; put them on an even playing field in regards to capability. They don't have to have the same methods of achieving that capability, but very few people like playing second fiddle in a Party Game.

Again, I apologize if I come across as ranty or mean-spirited, but from where I sit Homebrew should always be questioned for 'What does this add to the game?', 'What does this fix in the rules?', 'What does this improve for the players?', and lastly 'How does this alter what already exists?'.
Your Homebrew adds options, and that I like. The Unique Job and Limit Abilities you added in are neat and generally effective. Alchemist and Gladiator are interesting and bring a lot to the table, though they could use better... syntax? Wording? for their Ability descriptions. Shared Limit Abilities are something I actually really like, they're a great concept that adds options and variety for all players in a good way.
Your Rule Fixes don't generally fix anything wrong; a lot change how the game is played, but in minor ways and altering things that weren't actually problematic. As I said before, they don't strictly 'fix' or 'improve' anything. They're different for the sake of being different. What's already 'strong' remains just as strong, and what's already 'weak' remains just as weak.
Your improvements for players -where unique- are good as I said. But a portion of those are 'Now all Martials can be a pseudo-Paladin!' which is either good or bad based on how you view that as a change. But where it's just a change to existing material, your Homebrew is weak. It doesn't really make underused Abilities more desirable, or overused Abilities less-so.
Your overall alterations don't really, in the end, change anything aside from encouraging a dynamic of 'Protect the Casters, my faithful Martial Meatshields!'. Increases in statistics, changes in ACC/AVD, minute alterations to a handful of spells... most of these don't do much in the end.

Maybe I'm not seeing it. Maybe if it's all taken together it fixes existing problems. But from where I'm looking, aside from trying to angle everyone protecting Mages (who can be just as sturdy as Martials if built with RES), most of your changes... don't really change anything.

Again, I do not intend for this to come across as aggressive, and I really do apologize for the tone I wrote that first summary with. If you can, don't look at this as a rant but as a critique and analysis by someone trying equally to add, fix, improve, and balance the existing version of FFd6. Which will mostly become moot when a new version is finished~

[Bloody Jaws]

No offense taken buddy, thanks for answering. Well about this problem we can put up some more effort and try to power up martial classes by redefining some of their abilities, i remember my last session, our red mage (yes and he used comet) was used to wipe the floor, we had no white mage, and the composition was like this:
-samurai (me) as a complete support/secondary damage (innate ability abuse was the only way for some damage to come in)
-Gambler as (i swear it was great) as support/healer with healing ranged weapons
-Warrior as full tank/desperately attempting to deal damage with a tank build
-Monk as melee dps

The result was we overkilled the given boss (classical giant mostly tank&spank style with aoe abilities) without magic aid, because our monk was something incredible and the heals were keeping us kinda "overhealed". So like you said before, every class has the potential to be of great use.
But, some of them, in comparison, are clearly harder/less powerful. So we focused on the ones we thought needed more care, such as Ranger, Dark knight (which received a complete overhaul) and engineer (which we took from another author, as mentioned in the document).
Because the word "nerf" is so bad, we focused on "pumping up a bit".
And yes, our comet caster scaled on enemy Marm only after the entire sum of damage was calculated. And it was nasty. (again as you say, its a matter of interpretation, that's why we decided to clarify by writing it up)

I believe though that a caster taking RES still lowers his damage output by a decent amount, and the items limitation does not allow for him to become bulky without leaving big chunks of damage behind. Of course there's always some kind of tricks to compensate that (like our red mage getting a summon that gives +4 RES, that b*tch).

Though I believe also that changing the 4 stats system could bring change in the way most mechanics work, I still am thinking about what could be done to not make it a more complicated system.
Either that or a deeper overhaul in martial classes, or a complete rework in how magic works. The idea of redirecting an element to a stat is nice, but again, mages will specialize in one and there we are again.
Sorry about this "train of thoughts" but to remember everything i want to write is a pain, so I simply do it the fastest way possible and the result sometimes appears kinda messy.