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molten_dragon
2010-10-30, 05:09 AM
I know that as a general rule of thumb, combined casting classes (i.e. mystic theurge or arcane hierophant) are generally considered weaker than single-classed casters.

My question is, how much weaker is arcane hierophant (races of the wild) than going straight druid?

On the surface, it seems like a decent tradeoff. Lose 3 levels of druid abilities, and gain 13 levels of wizard spellcasting. There's also a couple little neat tricks you can do with it. The way the companion familiar ability reads, your animal companion gets the familiar abilities whether you had a familiar to begin with or not, so you can grade your familiar away from some other useful ACF, and still have your animal companion get all the benefits. Then again, it pushes back several things that are good about the druid pretty far (i.e. no bear wildshaping until level 11).

The other question is, does precocious apprentice let you enter the class as a wizard 1/druid 6 (rather than wizard 3/druid 4), and how much does that change the power of the prestige class?

RelentlessImp
2010-10-30, 05:47 AM
On Precocious Apprentice: Depends on the DM. If you go that route, though, the generally accepted "best" build is Wizard 2/Druid 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 5. Ends with (17 Wizard, 18 Druid) casting, Wild Shape as a 13th level druid (following the interpretation of AH levels stacking with Druid explicitly - otherwise, no Wild Shape at all), an AC of a 13th level Druid with the abilities of a 12th level Wizard's familiar.

That's pretty beefy, in fact.

Edit: This build doesn't meet the BAB requirements. Neither does the sample Arcane Hierophant they give in the Wild Shape description (Wiz3/Dru3 has 3BAB). Take that as you will.

molten_dragon
2010-10-30, 06:22 AM
On Precocious Apprentice: Depends on the DM. If you go that route, though, the generally accepted "best" build is Wizard 2/Druid 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 5. Ends with (17 Wizard, 18 Druid) casting, Wild Shape as a 13th level druid (following the interpretation of AH levels stacking with Druid explicitly - otherwise, no Wild Shape at all), an AC of a 13th level Druid with the abilities of a 12th level Wizard's familiar.

That's pretty beefy, in fact.

Edit: This build doesn't meet the BAB requirements. Neither does the sample Arcane Hierophant they give in the Wild Shape description (Wiz3/Dru3 has 3BAB). Take that as you will.

I found that odd myself. I'm wondering if the +4 BAB is a typo.

mostlyharmful
2010-10-30, 06:25 AM
I found that odd myself. I'm wondering if the +4 BAB is a typo.

probably, given how late in 3.5s run AH came and by then even WotC had just about grasped that duel progression wasn't as terrible as they first thought.

RelentlessImp
2010-10-30, 07:52 AM
probably, given how late in 3.5s run AH came and by then even WotC had just about grasped that duel progression wasn't as terrible as they first thought.

It's certainly possible; however, the iconic, detailed a little later on (Eldrac or something) has the proper entry requirements of Druid 4 (+3 BAB), Wizard 3 (+1 BAB). That makes for a character that achieves Druid 17, Wizard 16 casting. Which isn't bad, it's just not as good as it could be.

Druid 4/Wizard 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 4, then, would be the optimum, getting 18 Druid, Wizard 16, though requires Precocious Apprentice, which is questionable enough that many DMs don't permit it. Ending with 14th level Wildshape, 14th level AC, 12th level familiar.

Druid 4/Wizard 3/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 3 would be the 'tried and true' method, with no questionable methods, though there's certainly other ways to get into it.

Bamboo Spirit Folk (OA) Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge 2 winds up with 18th level Wizard and 10th level Ur-Priest casting, with some CL shenanigans added on. If you wanted to cheese a little, at least. No Wild Shape, no Animal Companion (though you can trade in the Wizard's familiar for one via UA at "half effective druid level", so Druid 7 + Wizard 15 abilities, since you don't actually require the ability to possess a familiar to get the familiar bonuses by strict reading, or take a feat for Obtain Familiar [CArc] to skip the argument, at which point you gain Wizard 20 Familiar abilities), but you've got dual 9s.

Edit: Problem with the Ur-Priest build is that you have two whole alignments to work with. Mindbender: Any non-good. Ur-Priest: Any evil. Arcane Hierophant: Any nonlawful. So that leaves Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil.

Psyren
2010-10-30, 08:39 AM
Can't you get +4 BAB if you use fractional BAB and add a level of Mystic Theurge?

Wiz 3/Druid 3/MT1: 1.5 + 2.25 + 0.5 = 4.25, or is my math wrong?

RelentlessImp
2010-10-30, 08:52 AM
Can't you get +4 BAB if you use fractional BAB and add a level of Mystic Theurge?

Wiz 3/Druid 3/MT1: 1.5 + 2.25 + 0.5 = 4.25, or is my math wrong?

That's the build I was trying to remember.
Wiz 2/Druid 3/MT 2/Arcane Hierophant 10/MT +3 nets 18/17 Druid/Wizard, without fractional and using Precocious Apprentice. Dual 9s at the very end.

Psyren
2010-10-30, 08:58 AM
It seems the choice is between fractional BAB and early entry for dual 9s

Stephen_E
2010-10-30, 10:28 AM
An alternant entry with Precocious Apprentice is -
Wizard 1/ Druid 4/ BeastMaster 1/ Arcane Heriophant.

or Wizard 2/Druid 3/ BM1

This is for the more Animal Companion focused character.
If you add the Natural Bond feat you can then take an Alternate Companion feat at -6 levels and only be 1 level down on AC developement.

Stephen E

Godskook
2010-10-30, 11:36 AM
It seems the choice is between fractional BAB and early entry for dual 9s

Nope:

Wiz 3/Druid 3/MT 2/AH 10/MT +2

Gets dual 9s without any shenanigans. Admittedly, depending on your DMs interpretation, that may or may not get you wildshape, so early entry would be required to ensure wildshape too.

@OP

1.AH is considered among the strongest dual-progression classes, strong enough to hold his own normal parties, altough he'll suffer slightly in the 6-10 area due to his lagging spells and lack of relevant prestige class. Once he's in it and got his class stacking feats(Practiced Caster x2, Natural bond, which takes his level 3,9,12 feats), he starts maturing into a fearsome party member. Be aware, though, that an AH is *NOT* a primary spellcaster until very late in his career, and should really be treated more akin to a gish or arcane rogue in terms of his spellcasting prowess prior to level 10 or 12. At level 20, he's actually starting to outpace his single-casting brethren, having double 9s, a EDL of 17+ for his AC's abilities, and probably wildshape to boot(With a poor EDL of 13, but eh, we can't have everything).

2.AH requires the ability to obtain a familiar, which, if you trade it away to an ACF, you won't have. Personally, I snag obtain familiar anyway, since I think that some of the ACFs(particularly Abrupt Jaunt) are worth spending a feat to get my familiar ability back.

3.Understand, man, that Mystic Theurge had roughly 3 problems to it. No class features worth mentioning in its own right, inability to ever obtain dual 9s, and expected entries were taking a hit in casting which took quite a few levels into the prestige class to 'fix'. However, all that said, MT was not *that* bad as a core prestige class, in so much as you were still somewhere between tier 1 and 3 for pretty much all of your career. AH negatees 2/3 problems that the MT had, and all the hybrid support that's come out since core helps mitigate the last one a bit.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-10-30, 01:01 PM
2.AH requires the ability to obtain a familiar, which, if you trade it away to an ACF, you won't have. Personally, I snag obtain familiar anyway, since I think that some of the ACFs(particularly Abrupt Jaunt) are worth spending a feat to get my familiar ability back.

Incorrect. It presumes that you have that ability upon entering the class, but it is not a requirement. Even if you trade your familiar for an ACF, it will still count your Wizard levels due to how it's worded. Even if you enter with an arcane casting class which doesn't even get a familiar, such as Suel Arcanamach, it will still add your arcane class levels to your AH levels for the benefits of a familiar. You should always trade your Familiar for more AC advancement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) if possible, there's no drawback to doing this so even if it only grants +1 level toward your AC it's worth getting.

Psyren
2010-10-30, 04:14 PM
Nope:

Wiz 3/Druid 3/MT 2/AH 10/MT +2

Gets dual 9s without any shenanigans.

Well, I don't consider fractional BAB to be shenanigans (I prefer to think about it as "the correct method") but you're right, that would do it.

Godskook
2010-10-30, 05:10 PM
Incorrect. It presumes that you have that ability upon entering the class, but it is not a requirement. Even if you trade your familiar for an ACF, it will still count your Wizard levels due to how it's worded. Even if you enter with an arcane casting class which doesn't even get a familiar, such as Suel Arcanamach, it will still add your arcane class levels to your AH levels for the benefits of a familiar.

Fair point, there. Misremembered it from something I read in the handbook, I guess. It has been a *LONG* while since I actually read the class requirements.


You should always trade your Familiar for more AC advancement (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard) if possible, there's no drawback to doing this so even if it only grants +1 level toward your AC it's worth getting.

No, you shouldn't. Abrupt Jaunt holds that title.


Well, I don't consider fractional BAB to be shenanigans (I prefer to think about it as "the correct method") but you're right, that would do it.

Well, its a variant rule, aka not RAW, so it'll *LOOK* like shenanigans to a DM who doesn't use that variant. On the other hand, its a variant I firmly support, since it prevents stupid results like a daggerspell mage who has worse BAB than a straight-class wizard.(At level 6, a straight wizard has 3 BAB, and straight rogue has 4 BAB, and a rogue 1/wizard 4/daggerspell mage 1 has 2 BAB)

Psyren
2010-10-30, 05:34 PM
Well, its a variant rule, aka not RAW, so it'll *LOOK* like shenanigans to a DM who doesn't use that variant.

Technically, variants are RAW. They are rules, and they are written - in a 1st-party source, no less.

A DM that doesn't like it, probably wouldn't like it if it wasn't a variant either.

Kantolin
2010-10-30, 05:40 PM
Why is Arcane Heirophant considered notably stronger than mystic theurge or other similars? O_o

I mean... they both have about the same schtick, they both really come into their own very late.

Edit: Er, to clarify. Familiar Companion, while it can be optimized, is not by default all that awesome, and their other class abilites are neat and flavorful but not awesome either (Cast out of trees?)

I mean... it's okay, and it does have class features giving it a leg up, but it doesn't strike me as all that neat.

Godskook
2010-10-30, 05:56 PM
Why is Arcane Heirophant considered notably stronger than mystic theurge or other similars? O_o

I mean... they both have about the same schtick, they both really come into their own very late.

Edit: Er, to clarify. Familiar Companion, while it can be optimized, is not by default all that awesome, and their other class abilites are neat and flavorful but not awesome either (Cast out of trees?)

I mean... it's okay, and it does have class features giving it a leg up, but it doesn't strike me as all that neat.

1.New class features
-Companion Familiar makes your AC smart and gives him the ability to deliver touch spells. If this was good on an XP bomb like a house-cat, imagine the power on a friendly neighborhood crocodile.
-Channel animal/plant, it has uses, but its not incredible, you're right.

2.AH stacks for more than just spellcasting,

3.A lot of MT builds can't jump into another prestige class to get their dual 9ths, which is part of the point of MT. AH, well, it has MT to fall back on for its dual 9s.

4.Timing plays a part too, since when MT came out, hybrid support didn't really exist, while by AH, you have yummy feats which can shore up the otherwise poor caster levels.

Stephen_E
2010-10-31, 08:45 AM
AH advances both your Animal Companion AND your Wildshape.

MT and the other dual casters generally ONLY advance your spell casting.

So basically the weaken your spell casting upfront, and shut down any other class abilities your base class gave you for the promise of strengthing it later on. assuming you survive.

AH does that, but at the same time continues to advance your other main Druid class abilities.

Stephen E