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Scarey Nerd
2010-10-30, 07:32 AM
Hobgoblins get 60ft Darkvision, +4 Move Silently, +2 Dex and +2 Con.

Does that really warrant a +1 LA? It seems huge to me. I'm assuming it's a perfect example of WotC overestimating the worth of an ability adjustment?

WinWin
2010-10-30, 07:36 AM
I agree. WoTC has a history of bigotry against the greenskinned races. It's about time people stood up to them.

LOTRfan
2010-10-30, 07:37 AM
Yeah..... the LA +1 seems a bit much. I no some people who just ignore it. I know someone made a variant Hobgoblin in the Homebrew section that made them more acceptable as an LA +1 race.

Yora
2010-10-30, 07:38 AM
I don't know of a single race that would become overpowered if its LA is reduced by 1. (This doesn't include races that are already overpowered to begin with. :smallbiggrin: )

LOTRfan
2010-10-30, 07:40 AM
This thread has a bunch of Hobgoblin variants to fill the LA +1. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161546&highlight=Hobgoblin)

Amphetryon
2010-10-30, 07:46 AM
Frank & K's Races of War makes Hobgoblins and a couple of other options LA+0 instead of +1, if memory serves.

dsmiles
2010-10-30, 07:59 AM
+1 is a definite overestimate of the hobbo-gobbo's worth as a PC. I'd go with +0 myself. I mean seriously, just because it doesn't have any penalties to it's ability socres? Yes, that is what it's based on, according to the SS. "Ability bonuses with no ability penalties = +1 LA." Dumb.

Scarey Nerd
2010-10-30, 08:01 AM
+1 is a definite overestimate of the hobbo-gobbo's worth as a PC. I'd go with +0 myself. I mean seriously, just because it doesn't have any penalties to it's ability socres? Yes, that is what it's based on, according to the SS. "Ability bonuses with no ability penalties = +1 LA." Dumb.

It seems that half of Wizards of the Coast make the rules, the other half write the books, with very little communication between the two halves :smalltongue:

I agree that +0 would be far more reasonable, or possibly fill them out to +1 so that they are better than normal Goblins.

RelentlessImp
2010-10-30, 08:03 AM
Show your DM Lolth-Touched (MMIV) and ask him/her if hobgoblin is anywhere remotely near that.
Or Half-Minotaur.
Or Half-Ogre.
Or Goliath.

Most DMs I know just say "Hobgoblins are LA +0, as are Blues".

Iku Rex
2010-10-30, 08:05 AM
(Hobgoblins were +0 in 3.0.)

Jack Zander
2010-10-30, 08:15 AM
I feel like hobgoblins are LA +0.5. Compared to any of the other races in the Player's Handbook, they are clearly a superior choice, except for maybe a feat-starved build that needs to be human. There really is little reason to ever play a dwarf or an elf over a hobgoblin.

Beelzebub1111
2010-10-30, 08:21 AM
IMO: Hobgoblins are a little too good for +0 but not good enough for +1. Give 'em some situational war-based or tactical abilities. an extra +1 or +2 to hit when flanking. +2 (non cumulative) dodge bonus to AC when adjacent to another hobgoblin, No penalty to AC when charging. One or two of those should do the trick. Maybe add a +2 bonus to some skill, intimidate or ride or something.

RelentlessImp
2010-10-30, 08:28 AM
+2 (non cumulative) dodge bonus

Let's not make Warrior-types worse by setting a precedent in which a bonus that always stacks, even with its own type, stops stacking with other bonuses of its type.

Beelzebub1111
2010-10-30, 08:30 AM
Let's not make Warrior-types worse by setting a precedent in which a bonus that always stacks, even with its own type, stops stacking with other bonuses of its type.
I'm saying that he can't surround himself with 8 other hobgoblins and get a +16 dodge bonus. it would count as getting multiple bonuses from the same source (even if the types stack), I was just clarifying that.

Iku Rex
2010-10-30, 08:42 AM
There really is little reason to ever play a dwarf or an elf over a hobgoblin.
Dwarf vs Hobgoblin

Both have +2 Con and Darkvision. The dwarf -2 Cha is not very important. Full movement in armor or encumbered more than makes up for the dwarf's 20' speed IMO.

Hobgoblin has +2 Dex and +4 move silently.

Dwarf has stonecunning, weapon familiarity, stability, +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison, spells and spell-like effects, +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids, +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type, +2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items and +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.

I see several reasons to play a dwarf over a hobgoblin. Dwarves are not obviously inferior.

dsmiles
2010-10-30, 08:45 AM
Dwarves are not obviously inferior.

True. Usually, a race choice for me is based more on what story I want to tell anyways. Ability bonuses and penalties don't normally come into play when I make my choice of race and class. Yes, I'd play a Dwarven sorcerer, -2 CHA and all, if that was the story I wanted to tell.

Runestar
2010-10-30, 08:45 AM
Hey, we are already having +0LA versions of planetouched...:smallamused:


Does that really warrant a +1 LA? It seems huge to me. I'm assuming it's a perfect example of WotC overestimating the worth of an ability adjustment?

More like they deemed it too strong to be LA+0, so they rounded up to LA+1.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-30, 08:49 AM
Hey, we are already having +0LA versions of planetouched...

In terms of ability adjustments, the Whisper Gnome [RoS] has -2 Str and -2 Cha relative to the Hobgoblin, as does the Dragonborn Air Goblin [RotD + SRD]. The Lesser Chaond (PGtF + MM2) has +2 Dex and -2 Cha relative to the Hobgoblin, while a Dragonborn Lesser Chaond would have +2 Con and -2 Cha. Similarly, a Dragonborn Lesser Wispling (RotD + PGtF + FF) would have +2 Int and -2 Str relative to the Hobgoblin. Those are the ways I can find to get +2 Dex and +2 Con at LA +0.

In short, lesser planetouched are overpowered, http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546874/Master_Player_Race_List_Version_2.0 is useful, and wikipedia is the most comprehensive source on planetouched I could find.

If you open up Dragon Magazine templates such as the oft-cited Magic-Blooded, the Arctic variant gives +2 Con and -2 Cha, which enables many LA +0 things resembling the Hobgoblin.

true_shinken
2010-10-30, 08:55 AM
Hey, we are already having +0LA versions of planetouched...:smallamused:

People ignore that those +0LA versions of planetouched are a DM's call (specifically called as such on Player's Guide to Faerun - either all tieflings are lesses tiefling or there are no leser tieflings), only written for aasimar/tiefling and they have all disadvantages of being an outsider with no advantages. They are harder to ressurrect, they are affected by Protection/Magic Circle spells as well as the Charm Person/Dominate Person thing. Since you're getting extra power from added weaknesses, it's basically attaching a sign to your back that says 'screw with me, DM'. YMMV.

Runestar
2010-10-30, 09:02 AM
People ignore that those +0LA versions of planetouched are a DM's call (specifically called as such on Player's Guide to Faerun - either all tieflings are lesses tiefling or there are no leser tieflings), only written for aasimar/tiefling and they have all disadvantages of being an outsider with no advantages.

Well, I am pretty sure they extend to the elemental planetouched as well. Depending on how you interpret it, this LA+0 variant may even extend to fey'ri (which are normally LA+2 or +3!). :smallcool:

In addition, I believe you can combine lesser planetouched with the celestial-attended birth option (champions of valour) to take otherworldly at 1st lv to become an outsider again. So you are effectively trading your 1st lv feat to do away with that +1LA (oh, and a small boost to diplomacy). :smallbiggrin:

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-30, 09:04 AM
People ignore that those +0LA versions of planetouched are a DM's call
As are sourcebooks in general, as well as the concept of prestige classes. If a DM is going to disallow lesser planetouched, balance is a much more pressing issue than the book's reminder that Rule 0 exists.


They are harder to ressurrect
How so? Lesser planetouched are susceptible to spells and effects that specifically target outsiders, yes. "Being harder to ressurect" does not specifically target outsiders, and if it did, counting it as an effect would make it vulnerable to Iron Heart Surge.


only written for aasimar/tiefling
Nothing in the books suggests this.


they are affected by Protection/Magic Circle spells
Nothing in those spell descriptions talks about outsiders. Nothing in banishment, the example spell in PGtF, talks about outsiders either.

dsmiles
2010-10-30, 09:04 AM
Well, I am pretty sure they extend to the elemental planetouched as well. Depending on how you interpret it, this LA+0 variant may even extend to fey'ri (which are normally LA+2 or +3!). :smallcool:

In addition, I believe you can combine lesser planetouched with the celestial-attended birth option (champions of valour) to take otherworldly at 1st lv to become an outsider again. So you are effectively trading your 1st lv feat to do away with that +1LA (oh, and a small boost to diplomacy). :smallbiggrin:

Ew. I think I'd rather suck up the +1 LA.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-30, 09:15 AM
Ew. I think I'd rather suck up the +1 LA.

Hey, people take Otherworldly as normal LA +0 races to be Outsiders [usually for Alter Self]. If it's an appealing trade as a normal LA +0 race that shouldn't change too much as a lesser planetouched. Although, depending on the properties of the (planetouched) subtype, you might still be vulnerable to Charm Person [and you probably should be if you're going to be using polymorph spells and lesser planetouched].

dsmiles
2010-10-30, 09:17 AM
Hey, people take Otherworldly as normal LA +0 races to be Outsiders [usually for Alter Self]. If it's an appealing trade as a normal LA +0 race that shouldn't change too much as a lesser planetouched. Although, depending on the properties of the (planetouched) subtype, you might still be vulnerable to Charm Person [and you probably should be if you're going to be using polymorph spells and lesser planetouched].

I'd probably do it as a human, or something else with a bonus feat, but with only one feat, I don't think I would.

Psyren
2010-10-30, 09:22 AM
Doesn't the Giant make a joke about them being +1 LA in SoD?

SensFan
2010-10-30, 09:27 AM
In my homebrewed setting, Hobgoblins are LA +0. The fact they might be mechanically 'better' than some other races is balanced by the fact there is still somewhat of a prejudice against them in the setting.

I don't know if I can explain more clearly under the forum rules, but think Remember the Titans.

true_shinken
2010-10-30, 09:33 AM
As are sourcebooks in general, as well as the concept of prestige classes. If a DM is going to disallow lesser planetouched, balance is a much more pressing issue than the book's reminder that Rule 0 exists.
:smallsigh:
Do you own Player's Guide to Faerun? It looks like you never read that part.
Lesser races are NOT a player choice. It's specifically written to say 'the DM chooses if in his world there are tieflings or lesser tieflings, either one or the other'. It is NOT a reference to rule zero, it's a reference to in-game consistency.



How so? Lesser planetouched are susceptible to spells and effects that specifically target outsiders, yes. "Being harder to ressurect" does not specifically target outsiders, and if it did, counting it as an effect would make it vulnerable to Iron Heart Surge.
Your argument had a point until you started using the broken wording of IHS to support it.



Nothing in the books suggests this.
Maybe the fact there are ONLY lesser tiefling and lesser aasimar listed? There is no 'lesser planetouched' template to be applied, people just extrapolated it from the lesser aasimar/tiefling in PgTF.
Now that I think about it, maybe there are stats for lesser genasi as well, but I forget.



Nothing in those spell descriptions talks about outsiders. Nothing in banishment, the example spell in PGtF, talks about outsiders either.
It mentions extraplanar creatures, which outsiders are, except those with the native subtype.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-30, 10:04 AM
Do you own Player's Guide to Faerun?
Yes?


Lesser races are NOT a player choice.
Prestige classes are NOT a player choice. Their inclusion or exclusion in the campaign is "always under the purview of the DM", as the DMG says. The entire book is not a player choice, despite the title - it opens up with "HOW TO USE THIS BOOK IN YOUR CAMPAIGN", wording extremely similar to the wording in the Lesser Versions section.


Your argument had a point until you started using the broken wording of IHS to support it.
"How so? Lesser planetouched are susceptible to spells and effects that specifically target outsiders, yes. "Being harder to ressurect" does not specifically target outsiders."
Is that better? Taking out the passing reference to Iron Heart Surge doesn't change anything. It doesn't SUPPORT anything.


Maybe the fact there are ONLY lesser tiefling and lesser aasimar listed? There is no 'lesser planetouched' template to be applied, people just extrapolated it from the lesser aasimar/tiefling in PgTF.
Which page are lesser tiefling and lesser aasimar listed on? Because I don't see them on page 190 or page 191. There is, in fact, a guideline to follow when creating Lesser Planetouched.

LESSER PLANETOUCHED
All lesser planetouched have the following racial trait in common, in addition to all the racial traits detailed elsewhere in this book.
"All the racial traits detailed elsewhere in this book" would seem to be a limiting qualifier, but tiefling and aasimar are not detailed elsewhere in the book save for a brief mention on page 27 (along with genasi). That's a fairly tenuous link, and a fairly liberal definition of "
Scratch that, I looked up the definition of "detail". Lesser planetouched are indeed confined to aasimars, tieflings, and genasi, (see page 27) if the "explain in detail" definition isn't used (and if said definition was used, lesser planetouched wouldn't exist, since no planetouched are detailed in the book). My bad.


It mentions extraplanar creatures, which outsiders are, except those with the native subtype.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Extraplanar_Subtype
Outsiders are very frequently not extraplanar.

true_shinken
2010-10-30, 11:50 AM
Prestige classes are NOT a player choice. Their inclusion or exclusion in the campaign is "always under the purview of the DM", as the DMG says. The entire book is not a player choice, despite the title - it opens up with "HOW TO USE THIS BOOK IN YOUR CAMPAIGN", wording extremely similar to the wording in the Lesser Versions section.
And so what? Makes no difference whatsoever, it's strictly a DM call either way. I can't see how agreeing with me is your argument against my point.



"How so? Lesser planetouched are susceptible to spells and effects that specifically target outsiders, yes. "Being harder to ressurect" does not specifically target outsiders."
Is that better? Taking out the passing reference to Iron Heart Surge doesn't change anything. It doesn't SUPPORT anything.
I'll concede that.



Scratch that, I looked up the definition of "detail". Lesser planetouched are indeed confined to aasimars, tieflings, and genasi, (see page 27) if the "explain in detail" definition isn't used (and if said definition was used, lesser planetouched wouldn't exist, since no planetouched are detailed in the book). My bad.
It happens, I myself got confused about it at first.



http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Extraplanar_Subtype
Outsiders are very frequently not extraplanar.
"A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane."
If an outsider does not have the native subtype, they are extraplanar.

Cieyrin
2010-10-30, 02:01 PM
I'm saying that he can't surround himself with 8 other hobgoblins and get a +16 dodge bonus. it would count as getting multiple bonuses from the same source (even if the types stack), I was just clarifying that.

Why not just change it to a racial bonus, then?

hamishspence
2010-10-30, 03:18 PM
"A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane."
If an outsider does not have the native subtype, they are extraplanar.

There were quite a few outsiders that did not have either the extraplanar subtype or the native subtype listed in their statblocks in 3.5 books.

However I think most tended to be subsequently errataed.

MM3 was particularly prone to this.

Astral Stalker, Lumi, Rejkar, Visilight, Justicator:

all were listed as outsiders but not listed as either native or extraplanar- both in their statblocks and in the index of types and subtypes at the start of the book.

I think MM3 errata corrected some but not all of them.

Cieyrin
2010-10-30, 03:39 PM
There were quite a few outsiders that did not have either the extraplanar subtype or the native subtype listed in their statblocks in 3.5 books.

However I think most tended to be subsequently errataed.

MM3 was particularly prone to this.

Astral Stalker, Lumi, Rejkar, Visilight, Justicator:

all were listed as outsiders but not listed as either native or extraplanar- both in their statblocks and in the index of types and subtypes at the start of the book.

I think MM3 errata corrected some but not all of them.

The thing with the extraplanar and native subtypes is that those are based off of where the outsider is at that moment of time. If they're on their home plane, they don't have the extraplanar subtype there and instead have native.

This basically applies to any creature type, as anything not on their native plan has the extraplanar subtype, which is just a subtype to say that you can be banished or any other of that type of effect.

hamishspence
2010-10-30, 03:50 PM
yes- the puzzle is how come those particular outsiders lacked the extraplanar description, when several others in the same book (demons, devils, etc) had it?


The thing with the extraplanar and native subtypes is that those are based off of where the outsider is at that moment of time. If they're on their home plane, they don't have the extraplanar subtype there and instead have native.

Isn't it only the Extraplanar subtype that works that way- the Native subtype always applies- only outsiders can have it, and it actually affects their abilities- ensuring that they have to eat and sleep?

So a Rakshsa on another plane from the Material, is still a "Native Outsider"- it simply gains the Extraplanar subtype as well- but it still needs to eat and sleep?

Coidzor
2010-10-30, 03:59 PM
Isn't it only the Extraplanar subtype that works that way- the Native subtype always applies- only outsiders can have it, and it actually affects their abilities- ensuring that they have to eat and sleep?

So a Rakshsa on another plane from the Material, is still a "Native Outsider"- it simply gains the Extraplanar subtype as well- but it still needs to eat and sleep?

Yes. Extraplanar as a tag can be skipped because the subtype is dependent upon where they are encountered. If they were presupposed to be encountered on their home planes, they would not have the extraplanar subtype.

Native subtype is intrinsic to the creature.

ericgrau
2010-10-30, 04:25 PM
I've analyzed this before via computer program with simplified combat tests. As others suspected hobgoblins are quite firmly LA 0.5: Too strong for LA +0 and too weak for LA +1. Another +2 to str or con balances them against Player's Handbook races and classes. Or use one of the many things someone linked to. For non-core builds you may want to ditch the LA or give them even more in exchange for it. Depends on the power level of the group.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-30, 05:17 PM
I can't see how agreeing with me is your argument against my point.
I was arguing against the implications of "People ignore". Yes, people ignore this; they also ignore many similar things that you're not calling them out on. Arguing against inferences in general is basically arguing against strawmen that don't tie to any point, especially in this case, so I really must apologize for that whole strain of argument.


"A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane."
If an outsider does not have the native subtype, they are extraplanar.
If any outsider is on a transitive plane it isn't extraplanar.
The entry for the native subtype says outsiders with the (native) subtype are native to the material plane, says the monster manual. If it has the (native) subtype, it is native to the material plane. That doesn't mean that if it's native to the material plane, it must have the native subtype; that would be affirming the consequent (though a reasonable step to take, given that the conditional doesn't seem to have a counterexample anywhere).
If the lesser planetouched are (extraplanar), where do they go when Banished? To a plane other than the material? How can any of those planes be their home plane when there's a good chance the planetouched was born and raised on Toril and never left? To the material plane? Then why do they have the (extraplanar) subtype?

true_shinken
2010-10-30, 05:20 PM
If the lesser planetouched are (extraplanar), where do they go when Banished?

I have no idea. It's just a sidenote that was never mentioned again in any official book anyway; it's so open ended that you need a lot of house ruling to get it to work.
Another reason why it bugs me to see people suggesting lesser planetouched all the time like it was the bees' knees.

Cieyrin
2010-10-30, 05:30 PM
If any outsider is on a transitive plane it isn't extraplanar.
The entry for the native subtype says outsiders with the (native) subtype are native to the material plane, says the monster manual. If it has the (native) subtype, it is native to the material plane. That doesn't mean that if it's native to the material plane, it must have the native subtype; that would be affirming the consequent (though a reasonable step to take, given that the conditional doesn't seem to have a counterexample anywhere).
If the lesser planetouched are (extraplanar), where do they go when Banished? To a plane other than the material? How can any of those planes be their home plane when there's a good chance the planetouched was born and raised on Toril and never left? To the material plane? Then why do they have the (extraplanar) subtype?

I think the bigger misnomer here is that Outsider implies that they're not from the Material Plane, which isn't necessarily true. All Outsider means is that they're not made with the same building blocks as other creatures, that they're a spiritual whole, rather than a body and soul like Humanoids and other creatures. Outsiders can and do exist on the Material Plane, hence the native subtype.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-30, 06:23 PM
it's so open ended that you need a lot of house ruling to get it to work.
Not too much more than Unarmed Swordsage, and people on the forums love that.


Another reason why it bugs me to see people suggesting lesser planetouched all the time like it was the bees' knees.
Really? I feel about as bad suggesting lesser planetouched as I do suggesting Dragonwrought Kobolds. Granted, I still mentioned them, but I'd hardly think of them as the bee's knees.

true_shinken
2010-10-30, 06:31 PM
Not too much more than Unarmed Swordsage, and people on the forums love that.
People on the forums also love lesser planetouched. That was my whole point.



Really? I feel about as bad suggesting lesser planetouched as I do suggesting Dragonwrought Kobolds. Granted, I still mentioned them, but I'd hardly think of them as the bee's knees.
I never mention venerable dragonwrought kobolds because it's very, very silly.
It's the same point all over again. ^^

Greenish
2010-10-31, 09:50 AM
I never mention venerable dragonwrought kobolds because it's very, very silly awesome.Fixed that for you. Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds are as stupidly powerful as, say, humans (without using epic feats or Sovereign archetypes, of course), and people keep suggesting those without qualms.

Boci
2010-10-31, 10:04 AM
People on the forums also love lesser planetouched. That was my whole point.

People like to be able to play a race with outsider connetations without delaying the acquisition of class features. This is especially good for people, such as myself, who do not like LA (in the sense that they understands itís a necessary evil but are still bothered the fact that it doesnít make much sense. Suddenly becoming more powerful genetically should not affect your ability to learn new skills relative to your party members.)
I don't see why that should annoy you.
Of course planetouched isn't nessiccary if you reflavour a PHB race, but not all DMs approve.

As for the origional topic, I agree that +0 LA is a bit low for them. Yes the dwarf has some advantages over them, but a dwarf's 20ft speed can limit the whole party, which in my expirience is a big factor working against it.

SensFan
2010-10-31, 11:24 AM
As for the origional topic, I agree that +0 LA is a bit low for them. Yes the dwarf has some advantages over them, but a dwarf's 20ft speed can limit the whole party, which in my expirience is a big factor working against it.
Somewhat off-topic, but I don't think I've ever been in a party where every character has a 30-foot speed. There's always a Dwarf, or a Halfling, or a Gnome, or someone who is armored/encumbered.

ericgrau
2010-10-31, 02:16 PM
That's because the DM often handwaves it. In any group where he tracks it the 20 foot speed quickly becomes apparent. I've had a group ask my gnome to grab boots to fix my speed. Tactically it becomes a big deal too as you lose attacks to moving, even with DMs that start fights close and handwave tactical approaches. DMs with more tactical fights that start farther away make the issue much worse. OTOH once you're in full plate both races have the same speed.

Cieyrin
2010-10-31, 02:25 PM
That's because the DM often handwaves it. In any group where he tracks it the 20 foot speed quickly becomes apparent. I've had a group ask my gnome to grab boots to fix my speed. Tactically it becomes a big deal too as you lose attacks to moving, even with DMs that start fights close and handwave tactical approaches. DMs with more tactical fights that start farther away make the issue much worse. For that matter once DMs start handwaving things like speed, he probably handwaves most other things leaving dwarves at +2 con, +2 to most saves, 20' speed vs. +2 con, +2 dex, 30' speed. Most attacks aren't save based so that still gives the advantage to the hobgoblin.

Suddenly gnome-throwing becomes a tactically viable option to get your ankle biters into knee stabbing range. :smallbiggrin:

Also why this probably was made: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46162

SensFan
2010-10-31, 03:10 PM
That's because the DM often handwaves it. In any group where he tracks it the 20 foot speed quickly becomes apparent. I've had a group ask my gnome to grab boots to fix my speed. Tactically it becomes a big deal too as you lose attacks to moving, even with DMs that start fights close and handwave tactical approaches. DMs with more tactical fights that start farther away make the issue much worse. OTOH once you're in full plate both races have the same speed.
The point is that unless you're telling me the parties you play in usually have no Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes, people carrying a medium load, or people wearing medium armor, then you having a 20-foot base speed isn't going to slow down the party at all.

Optimator
2010-10-31, 03:58 PM
I agree. WoTC has a history of bigotry against the greenskinned races. It's about time people stood up to them.

He speaks the truth.

Psyren
2010-10-31, 04:08 PM
I agree. WoTC has a history of bigotry against the greenskinned races. It's about time people stood up to them.

The blueskinned ones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/blue.htm) as well. Did these guys really need +1 LA too?

Although I might give them light-sensitivity if I was going to drop them to 0.

hamishspence
2010-10-31, 04:21 PM
Technically Players Guide to Faerun says:


All lesser planetouched have the following racial trait in common, in addition to all the racial traits detailed elsewhere in this book.

Planetouched: Planetouched are humanoids (not outsiders) with the planetouched subtype. They are susceptible to spells and effects that specifically target both humanoids or outsiders. Charm person works against them, and so does banishment. This trait replaces the outsider entry in each planetouched description.

So- it does not specifically state that planetouched with the native subtype, gain the extraplanar subtype when converted to Lesser Planetouched.

FMArthur
2010-10-31, 05:03 PM
It still sucks that you give your "lose" button to every caster who can see what you are, though. I don't really like such extreme balancing mechanisms; you can either let them be overpowered or you can send them to some other plane nearly any time you like using Dismissal. Thankfully they aren't so overpowered you would need to resort to this, but mean DMs do exist, are plentiful, and will do mean things to you as soon as you plant a 'kick me' sign like this on your back.

Boci
2010-10-31, 05:21 PM
The point is that unless you're telling me the parties you play in usually have no Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes, people carrying a medium load, or people wearing medium armor, then you having a 20-foot base speed isn't going to slow down the party at all.

In my parties thats true. Extra dimensional space takes care of loads and mithril breastplate takes care of armour. So we usually do not have races with 20ft speed.

Psyren
2010-10-31, 05:26 PM
In my parties thats true. Extra dimensional space takes care of loads and mithril breastplate takes care of armour. So we usually do not have races with 20ft speed.

There's also the much more common remedies of horses and teleportation. Sure they won't help once you're inside the dungeon, but surely the faster party members can wait the 6 seconds for their fellows to catch up.

(Besides, it creates additional tension during the Indiana Jones escape sequences.)

Boci
2010-10-31, 05:30 PM
There's also the much more common remedies of horses and teleportation. Sure they won't help once you're inside the dungeon, but surely the faster party members can wait the 6 seconds for their fellows to catch up.

Teleportation magic isn't cheap and horses have numberous disadvantages.


(Besides, it creates additional tension during the Indiana Jones escape sequences.)

I'd say having all characters running equally fast crestesmore tension.

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 05:32 PM
I'd say having all characters running equally fast crestesmore tension.
Exactly. How are you supposed to outrun your companions when they're all moving the same speed as you? :smalltongue:

Boci
2010-10-31, 05:44 PM
Exactly. How are you supposed to outrun your companions when they're all moving the same speed as you? :smalltongue:

Its called "Kick to the groin".

Psyren
2010-10-31, 05:48 PM
Teleportation magic isn't cheap and horses have numberous disadvantages.

...All of which are sort of outweighed by the advantage of having horses.


I'd say having all characters running equally fast crestesmore tension.

So do you just ban dwarves and halflings in your games? :smallconfused:

Boci
2010-10-31, 05:54 PM
...All of which are sort of outweighed by the advantage of having horses.

Not really. You may often need to abandone horses/leave them behind, and if speed is not an issue it just lowers the time a cut scene takes. When you really need horses you can use the mount spell via wand or the groups casters.
And if you rely on horses to negate a speed difference you will regret it when in a place were you needed to leave the horses behind.


So do you just ban dwarves and halflings in your games? :smallconfused:

Not ban, we just prefer not to use them.

Psyren
2010-10-31, 06:06 PM
When you really need horses you can use the mount spell via wand or the groups casters.

Last I checked the mount spell gives you a horse. I don't recall specifying it had to be a mundane one.

So use the spell if you want, and everyone in the party now has the same speed. Horses still solved the problem.


Not ban, we just prefer not to use them.

Which is dandy for your group but we are talking generalities.

Dr.Epic
2010-10-31, 06:08 PM
I don't know. Seems about right to me.

Boci
2010-10-31, 06:09 PM
Last I checked the mount spell gives you a horse. I don't recall specifying it had to be a mundane one.

So use the spell if you want, and everyone in the party now has the same speed. Horses still solved the problem.

Then you enter a place and need to leave the horses behind and realize that -10ft from the party's speed can hurt.


Which is dandy for your group but we are talking generalities.

Well having dwarves in your party may be fine and dandy for you, but we're talking generalities.

All I can offer is what my group does and the reasons for those choices. I cannot speak for every group.

SensFan
2010-10-31, 06:19 PM
Well having dwarves in your party may be fine and dandy for you, but we're talking generalities.

All I can offer is what my group does and the reasons for those choices. I cannot speak for every group.
I really hope you realize that having an entire party where everyone plays non-Dwarf medium-sized creatures and never wears so much as medum armor or carries 30 pounds of gear is clearly a massive outlier, and not the norm.

Boci
2010-10-31, 06:23 PM
I really hope you realize that having an entire party where everyone plays non-Dwarf medium-sized creatures and never wears so much as medum armor or carries 30 pounds of gear is clearly a massive outlier, and not the norm.

I don't know. Extra dimensional space is cheap enough so unless people like encumbrance penalties that should be pretty common. Not wearing medium armour is also pretty common, and even if the character is attached to heavy armour a 2k item will solve the speed problem. Sothat leaves races which from what I can tell isn't the norm but isn't unheard of either.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-31, 06:36 PM
a 2k item will solve the speed problem.

Tooth of Savnok is really unusual to see in a game.

Boci
2010-10-31, 06:40 PM
Tooth of Savnok is really unusual to see in a game.

Not in my groups, although usually because I draw attention to it.

Psyren
2010-10-31, 06:58 PM
Then you enter a place and need to leave the horses behind and realize that -10ft from the party's speed can hurt.

Wow, I have to wait 6 seconds for the dwarf to catch up. The expedition is ruined!!!11!11


All I can offer is what my group does and the reasons for those choices. I cannot speak for every group.

Clearly.

Boci
2010-10-31, 07:24 PM
Wow, I have to wait 6 seconds for the dwarf to catch up. The expedition is ruined!!!11!11

Catching up with a creature who can move at 30ft or more. Out run a creature with 30ft speed or more.


Clearly.

And your expirience is superior to mine because?

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-31, 07:34 PM
And your expirience is superior to mine because?

He's assuming that his experiences are more representative of the majority of experiences. An experience that seems pretty reasonable, to be honest; I don't usually have a slow party but it seems like an outlier based on my experience with the gamer zeitgeist.

Psyren
2010-10-31, 11:35 PM
And your expirience is superior to mine because?

I don't recall saying anything about my experience.

And that's as far as I'm willing to let this dance take me.

Boci
2010-10-31, 11:49 PM
I don't recall saying anything about my experience.

So my argument is invalid because its just based of personal expirience (It isn't actually, its based off an analysis of the impact of lowering the parties movement from 30ft to 20ft) but yours isn't because its based off...?

Jack Zander
2010-11-01, 12:15 AM
Dwarf vs Hobgoblin

Both have +2 Con and Darkvision.

So both are equal here.


The dwarf -2 Cha is not very important.

Not so fast. Cha might not make a difference to some builds, but it certainly limits a race's options which gives hobgoblins a clear advantage. One of the reasons human's are so good is because they don't have a penalty to any stat, so they are a viable option for any class.


Full movement in armor or encumbered more than makes up for the dwarf's 20' speed IMO.

That may be true for an armored dwarf, but what about a rogue dwarf, or a wizard dwarf?


Hobgoblin has +2 Dex and +4 move silently.

Hobgoblin gets a +2 to a stat that is good for all classes, and a +5 (with racial stat boost) to a skill that is good for all classes.


Dwarf has stonecunning,

Useless without ranks in the proper skills, and how often does it come up anyway?


weapon familiarity,

With a subpar weapon.


stability,

Decent, but how often are you being tripped or bullrushed in your games?


+2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison,

Poison is weaksauce. The bonus is irrelevant as soon as your party reaches level 5.


spells and spell-like effects,

Definately good, but in the same way that monk's getting high save progressions is good.


+1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids,

Dwarfs truly are the masters of low-level encounters. Hobgoblins have a +1 to hit also, but it works against all creature types (when using a ranged weapon or weapon finesse).


+4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type,

20% miss chance against less than 10% of encounters.


+2 racial bonus on Appraise checks that are related to stone or metal items and +2 racial bonus on Craft checks that are related to stone or metal.

Not even worth mentioning.


I see several reasons to play a dwarf over a hobgoblin. Dwarves are not obviously inferior.

I see exactly one reason to play a dwarf over a hobgoblin, and that is the +2 against spells. But I see 2 reasons to play a hobgoblin over a dwarf, and that's for the +2 Dex and the +10 movement speed.

dgnslyr
2010-11-01, 12:26 AM
Well, hobgoblin is definitely mechanically superior by far, but dwarves get a lot more cool little tricks, if not necessarily useful. I find it a bit odd Hobgoblins get no little tricks. Still, hobgoblins are definitely better than LA+0, but I would rather see them toned down a hair to make them LA+0. Maybe make them +2 Dex, -2 Cha? Something along those lines, maybe.

Psyren
2010-11-01, 12:37 AM
So my argument is invalid because its just based of personal expirience (It isn't actually, its based off an analysis of the impact of lowering the parties movement from 30ft to 20ft) but yours isn't because its based off...?

Your argument is based off not using dwarves, gnomes and halflings, since neither extradimensional storage space nor mithril armor will make them go any faster than 20'. You can't possibly expect other groups to simply disregard three races from the PHB.


Well, hobgoblin is definitely mechanically superior by far, but dwarves get a lot more cool little tricks, if not necessarily useful. I find it a bit odd Hobgoblins get no little tricks. Still, hobgoblins are definitely better than LA+0, but I would rather see them toned down a hair to make them LA+0. Maybe make them +2 Dex, -2 Cha? Something along those lines, maybe.

Sure they have a minor edge on dwarves, but nothing I've seen makes them better than humans, and certainly not better than lesser planetouched. I would throw in -2 Cha as you suggest though. just to keep with the theme of LA 0 being a total bonus of +2 or less.

dgnslyr
2010-11-01, 12:49 AM
Lesser planetouched are also a bit strong for LA+0, IMO, and they should probably be toned down a bit.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-11-01, 12:49 AM
since neither extradimensional storage space nor mithril armor will make them go any faster than 20'.

Magic will. Lots and lots of magic. Of course, by the time you have that much magic in play a few extra feet of base speed won't save you...

Boci
2010-11-01, 12:50 AM
Your argument is based off not using dwarves, gnomes and halflings, since neither extradimensional storage space nor mithril armor will make them go any faster than 20'. You can't possibly expect other groups to simply disregard three races from the PHB.

You do realize its possible to boost land speed?


Magic will. Lots and lots of magic. Of course, by the time you have that much magic in play a few extra feet of base speed won't save you...

You do not need lots and lots of magic to get a +10 to speed.

Psyren
2010-11-01, 01:24 AM
You do realize its possible to boost land speed?

You're the one villifying the shorties, not me.

Boci
2010-11-01, 01:35 AM
You're the one villifying the shorties, not me.

Your the one misinterpreting my words. I said a dwarfs 20ft land speed was something to count against it since it has has adverse affects on the party, then went onto say that my group does not use them. You were the one who claimed I was discounting them, I just said I don't use them.

Godless_Paladin
2010-11-01, 02:08 AM
Does that really warrant a +1 LA?

No.

What, you were expecting something else? That's it. It's that simple.

Frosty
2010-11-01, 02:36 AM
The Hobgoblin makes a perfectly balanced +0 LA race in Pathfinder tbh. It's the non-dwarf/human races in 3.5 that are crappy :smallbiggrin:

Duke of URL
2010-11-01, 07:28 AM
Yeah, I gotta go with LA +0.5 too. They're too good for LA +0 and not good enough for LA +1. Three options to fix:

1) Throw in some kind of drawback and reduce them to LA +0
2) Give them something extra, and keep them at LA +1
3) Treat them as LA +1 at character creation for the purposes of experience gain only, but give them a free LA buyoff at character level 3.

Coidzor
2010-11-01, 08:05 AM
So my argument is invalid because its just based of personal expirience (It isn't actually, its based off an analysis of the impact of lowering the parties movement from 30ft to 20ft) but yours isn't because its based off...?

When it's low level it doesn't matter and when it's high level there's magic and mounts.

Hell, grab a mule for 8 gp and have it trained for a rider if you're that worried about slowing down the party's overland speed. :smalltongue:

Boci
2010-11-01, 08:10 AM
When it's low level it doesn't matter and when it's high level there's magic and mounts.

Hell, grab a mule for 8 gp and have it trained for a rider if you're that worried about slowing down the party's overland speed. :smalltongue:

You cannot always fight from the back of a mule and you cannot take it to all places.

Coidzor
2010-11-01, 08:15 AM
You cannot always fight from the back of a mule and you cannot take it to all places.

and those places are going to be fairly cramped meaning a move speed of 30 isn't going to be a huge boon either.

What's your point, really? That limitations should always be made monolithic and that compensating in a very obvious manner is somehow immoral or breaks the spirit of the game?

Boci
2010-11-01, 08:26 AM
and those places are going to be fairly cramped meaning a move speed of 30 isn't going to be a huge boon either.

Your in a house. No mules. You need to climb, mules stay behind. Area affect. Mule dies. Ect.


What's your point, really? That limitations should always be made monolithic and that compensating in a very obvious manner is somehow immoral or breaks the spirit of the game?

Givn that I pointed out getting an enhancement to speed isn't hard, you probably don't need me to answer that.

My point is that I strongly disagree with this statement:


Full movement in armor or encumbered more than makes up for the dwarf's 20' speed IMO.

That is all it has ever been. 20ft speed can hurt. Its not a dismissible feature of the dwarf.

true_shinken
2010-11-01, 10:30 AM
That is all it has ever been. 20ft speed can hurt. Its not a dismissible feature of the dwarf.
I have to agree.

Jack Zander
2010-11-01, 10:36 AM
I don't like the idea of keeping hobgoblins at LA +1. I prefer as many LA +0 races as possible to open up options. the Cha penalty is done so many times over for greenskins, so I suggest giving them a penalty we don't see too often, Wis. A Wis penalty is pretty harsh, but a Dex and Con bonus help every single class, and some classes won't care much for Wis anyway. However, I'd still give them some minor situational bonuses like most of the other races have to compensate a bit. Maybe a +1 to Ref or +2 to Climb, Jump, and Swim or something.

Doug Lampert
2010-11-01, 11:54 AM
That's because the DM often handwaves it. In any group where he tracks it the 20 foot speed quickly becomes apparent. I've had a group ask my gnome to grab boots to fix my speed. Tactically it becomes a big deal too as you lose attacks to moving, even with DMs that start fights close and handwave tactical approaches. DMs with more tactical fights that start farther away make the issue much worse. OTOH once you're in full plate both races have the same speed.

Why is 20' move a disadvantage the rest of the party cares about?

Carry ranged weapons and have everyone move at the speed of the slowest character, my current group includes one fast mover who INSISTS on charging at full speed, and everyone KNOWS it's her fault if she dies horribly.

Separating the group is bad, but it's not the slow moving character's fault if the group separates! And the entire group being slow is rarely a big problem.

All one 20' mover means is that when I run away I don't have to outrun the whatever, I just have to outrun you.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 12:03 PM
I don't like the idea of keeping hobgoblins at LA +1. I prefer as many LA +0 races as possible to open up options. the Cha penalty is done so many times over for greenskins, so I suggest giving them a penalty we don't see too often, Wis. A Wis penalty is pretty harsh, but a Dex and Con bonus help every single class, and some classes won't care much for Wis anyway. However, I'd still give them some minor situational bonuses like most of the other races have to compensate a bit. Maybe a +1 to Ref or +2 to Climb, Jump, and Swim or something.

Don't know... races wich have Wis penalties, are usually easilly distracted, curious, or they lack common sense, and the fluff makes Hobs the epitome of discipline and self control, as such a Wis penalty would be weird in my opinion.

And to further my point, the Sunscorch (Dragon Magic) hob subrace, gaves them a Wis bonus

Jack Zander
2010-11-01, 01:13 PM
Don't know... races wich have Wis penalties, are usually easilly distracted, curious, or they lack common sense, and the fluff makes Hobs the epitome of discipline and self control, as such a Wis penalty would be weird in my opinion.

And to further my point, the Sunscorch (Dragon Magic) hob subrace, gaves them a Wis bonus

I wasn't basing the penalty off of flavor at all. Their fluff would lead to them having their stats exactly as they are. By changing their stats in any way you've got to alter their fluff as well.

Also, many subraces have bonuses where their more common counterparts have penalties.

If I were to completely redo hobgoblins as a homebrewed race, I'd give them +2 Str and -2 Con, making them more similar to elves and having an interesting trade-off (like elves). To balance their penalty, I'd give them a +2 initiative bonus for their sharp reflexes due to their military upbringing. I'd remove the move silently bonus. I'm not sure why they have that. Unrelated, but dwarves would get a -2 Dex instead of Cha.

Rion
2010-11-01, 01:48 PM
I always thought they got the move silently bonus so they were better at hiding if they got a circumstance bonus to hide during tactical operations. For example, they are attacking an enemy camp during the night. The decreased light give them a hide bonus, but that would be useless if they didn't also have a bonus to move silently.
Another example might be if they are setting an ambush. If they are hiding behind rocks, trees or other objects blocking enemy vision, wether the enemy know they are there or not depends on their move silently modifier.

Boci
2010-11-01, 03:21 PM
Why is 20' move a disadvantage the rest of the party cares about?

It makes chasing anything with 30ft speed difficult and running away is likewise problematic. Although thge latter does depend on how often your DM expects you to do that.

Amphetryon
2010-11-01, 04:20 PM
Why is 20' move a disadvantage the rest of the party cares about?

Carry ranged weapons and have everyone move at the speed of the slowest character, my current group includes one fast mover who INSISTS on charging at full speed, and everyone KNOWS it's her fault if she dies horribly.

Separating the group is bad, but it's not the slow moving character's fault if the group separates! And the entire group being slow is rarely a big problem.

All one 20' mover means is that when I run away I don't have to outrun the whatever, I just have to outrun you.

So, moving slower than the default 30'/round is not a disadvantage the rest of the party should care about, while moving faster than the default movement rate is a disadvantage that puts that character at fault if she should die as a result of it?

I think I'm missing a step in that thought process.

SensFan
2010-11-01, 05:06 PM
So, moving slower than the default 30'/round is not a disadvantage the rest of the party should care about, while moving faster than the default movement rate is a disadvantage that puts that character at fault if she should die as a result of it?

I think I'm missing a step in that thought process.
A party with no casters isn't at a massive disadvantage when it comes to watches, since they can do it the old fashioned way. If the Rogue decides he's going to make camp like he did when he travelled with Caster Von Magic and not worry about watches, he's going to get eaten.

A party with a Dwarf isn't at a massive disadvantage when it comes to walking, since they can just go 20 feet per round. If the Rogue decides he's going to keep moving 30 full speed like he did when he travelled with Team SpeedyMcSpeed, he's going to get eaten.

Boci
2010-11-01, 05:09 PM
A party with no casters isn't at a massive disadvantage when it comes to watches, since they can do it the old fashioned way. If the Rogue decides he's going to make camp like he did when he travelled with Caster Von Magic and not worry about watches, he's going to get eaten.

A party with a Dwarf isn't at a massive disadvantage when it comes to walking, since they can just go 20 feet per round. If the Rogue decides he's going to keep moving 30 full speed like he did when he travelled with Team SpeedyMcSpeed, he's going to get eaten.

Next time you're in a party where everyone moves at 30ft try moving only at 20ft always. Tell me if its ever a disadvantage.

Zaydos
2010-11-01, 05:13 PM
Also note that you are at a disadvantage against enemies that fight from a range, against enemies that have a 25-ft + movement rate and set up effectively (they can charge you, you can't charge them) or just use movement effectively.

My players in IRL games learn that having 40-ft speed is a noticeable advantage, since the monsters tend to be just outside of charge range for 30-ft speed or use 30-ft speed + ranged weapons and a 40-ft speed cuts down the amount of rounds those can freely stay out of melee by quite a bit.

Coidzor
2010-11-01, 05:20 PM
Next time you're in a party where everyone moves at 30ft try moving only at 20ft always. Tell me if its ever a disadvantage.

It's compensatable. It's more easily compensatable than a stat penalty, for instance.

Zaydos: If one is forced by one's enemies to engage on their terms, half of the battle has already been lost. Of course disadvantages are going to be highlighted in such instances.

Boci
2010-11-01, 05:27 PM
It's compensatable. It's more easily compensatable than a stat penalty, for instance.

You mean 4k?

FMArthur
2010-11-01, 05:48 PM
Against intelligent foes you can get 'kited' a lot, even by melee opponents - they hit you and Tumble away 30ft. The 'solution' for melee dwarves is to charge, but the point is that they are forcing you to do it; frequently a charge is inappropriate, dangerous, or impossible in a situation. And that's if they don't actively seek ways to make charging bad. I recently played a dwarven melee build and while there were plenty of times where 20ft landspeed didn't matter, there were a lot of moments where it got stupid.

It did get way better when I started focusing on making my character fight on horseback. In almost any environment you're forced to leave your horse behind, combat will be in a space that accommodates slower characters. But again, the 'mounted combat' thing was something I was forced into by necessity. The 20ft weakness is a weakness because it forces your hand on certain combat options. If you were going to do them anyway, I call that synergy, but that doesn't mean it's not a racial weakness... it's like a caster-friendly race with -2 strength.

SensFan
2010-11-01, 05:49 PM
Next time you're in a party where everyone moves at 30ft try moving only at 20ft always. Tell me if its ever a disadvantage.
I'm not sure I've ever been in a party where everyone moved 30 feet or more.

Zaydos
2010-11-01, 05:50 PM
Zaydos: If one is forced by one's enemies to engage on their terms, half of the battle has already been lost. Of course disadvantages are going to be highlighted in such instances.

Most everyone has to engage an enemy on their terms if you're attacking (hence defenders are usually considered to have a better chance). Unless the enemy is quite stupid (yes my defensive fortifications are made where I cannot enjoy my full ability to defend myself).

If you don't usually have to engage the enemy on their terms than either your DM is going easy on you, he's allowing some heavy divination abuse without having the enemies actually have mages and counter-plans, or you're avoiding dungeon crawls entirely.

Boci
2010-11-01, 05:52 PM
I'm not sure I've ever been in a party where everyone moved 30 feet or more.

Then maybe your not the best to judge what a weakness that can be. Also, you kinda missed the point.

Coidzor
2010-11-01, 05:59 PM
Against intelligent foes you can get 'kited' a lot, even by melee opponents - they hit you and Tumble away 30ft.

TUMBLE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY./Morbo

...Does it? :smallconfused:

Boci
2010-11-01, 06:00 PM
TUMBLE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY./Morbo

...Does it? :smallconfused:

They'd take a -10 penalty to tumble at full speed. That or they have a speed of 60ft.

SensFan
2010-11-01, 06:02 PM
Then maybe your not the best to judge what a weakness that can be. Also, you kinda missed the point.
I think I made the point. If my party has someone moving 20 feet - and it does - then if NewGuy is contemplating between Hobgoblin and Dwarf, the speed is a very small issue.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-01, 06:02 PM
TUMBLE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY./Morbo

...Does it? :smallconfused:

Well, you normally tumble 1/2 speed so 15 ft, but "By accepting a -10 penalty on your Tumble checks, you can move at your full speed instead of one-half your speed. "

Boci
2010-11-01, 06:08 PM
I think I made the point. If my party has someone moving 20 feet - and it does - then if NewGuy is contemplating between Hobgoblin and Dwarf, the speed is a very small issue.

Not really. Your charging range is still 40ft instead of 60ft + all the other things mentioned on this thread by others about the disagvantages of 20ft speed.

FMArthur
2010-11-01, 06:19 PM
TUMBLE DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY./Morbo

...Does it? :smallconfused:

You need to (effectively) make a DC 25 check. It's not completely easy for them at low levels, but even the chance of evading your AoO for free is very profitable (read: frustrating!) when they can make sure that the AoO is all you get to do to them this round anyway.

SensFan
2010-11-01, 06:39 PM
Not really. Your charging range is still 40ft instead of 60ft + all the other things mentioned on this thread by others about the disagvantages of 20ft speed.
I'll repeat what I've said several times now; in my experience, most of the party ends up either starting at 20ft speed, or getting armored/encumbered there.

Boci
2010-11-01, 06:42 PM
I'll repeat what I've said several times now; in my experience, most of the party ends up either starting at 20ft speed, or getting armored/encumbered there.

I know. And other posters in this thread have pointed out the disadvantages of 20ft moving speed. The fact that everyone is moving at 20ft is even worse since now nowone can move that extra distance to beat the minion to the Macguffin or for what ever reason.

Zaydos
2010-11-01, 07:04 PM
In my experience generally the only person who is going at 20-ft speed is the fighter (or equivalent) and possibly cleric. Of course most of my experience was before Complete Champion so the barbarian had 30+ movement. Speed is good for casters, archers, and anyone who needs to avoid melee (warlocks love good speed), and is needed for anyone who needs to get into melee quickly. So it's not a disadvantage that can be ignored.

The fact that dwarves are not slowed in heavy/medium armor helps but they still lose out to hobgoblins. LA measures your character being built to play on their streets not weaknesses. The only time dwarves stack up favorably is in heavy armor, low max Dex characters or if the hobgoblins play down their strengths while allowing the dwarves to play up theirs.

Now is a hobgoblin really strong enough for +1 LA? No it's more like +0.333... or 0.5, but that still means it either has to be nerfed or keep the LA (in which case give it some boosts).

Coidzor
2010-11-01, 07:46 PM
You need to (effectively) make a DC 25 check. It's not completely easy for them at low levels, but even the chance of evading your AoO for free is very profitable (read: frustrating!) when they can make sure that the AoO is all you get to do to them this round anyway.

Requires an additional move action from somewhere though, unless you're starting a round after having eaten a charge attack or full attack.

Or have Spring Attack. :smallyuk:

Boci
2010-11-01, 07:55 PM
Requires an additional move action from somewhere though, unless you're starting a round after having eaten a charge attack or full attack.

Or have Spring Attack. :smallyuk:

With 20ft speed? Not very effective.

Coidzor
2010-11-01, 08:12 PM
With 20ft speed? Not very effective.

No, on the person kiting the person with 20' speed. I was trying to get him to explain his example.

true_shinken
2010-11-02, 09:36 AM
Of course lower speed is an issue. If it wasn't, we wouldn't have listed speed for races.

Psyren
2010-11-02, 09:40 AM
I just wanted to note that lack of extradimensional storage space is not the only way you can end up encumbered. Strength damage/drain can be pretty common depending on your game, and you can't always count on having Magic-Mart open for the Usain Bolt Fullplate of Sprinting.

Boci
2010-11-02, 09:43 AM
I just wanted to note that lack of extradimensional storage space is not the only way you can end up encumbered. Strength damage/drain can be pretty common depending on your game

If its common it won't be an issue since the party will have a cure. If its rare then it could be an issue when it pops up.


and you can't always count on having Magic-Mart open for the Usain Bolt Fullplate of Sprinting.

Try mithril breast plate.

dsmiles
2010-11-02, 09:45 AM
Usain Bolt Fullplate of Sprinting.

ROFL.

No, really. I think some coffee may have come out of my nose. :smalltongue:

Psyren
2010-11-02, 09:48 AM
Try mithril breast plate.

If you have it, great. If you have it at low levels, even better.

Boci
2010-11-02, 09:54 AM
If you have it, great. If you have it at low levels, even better.

Chain shirt. Its just one less AC.

Psyren
2010-11-02, 10:43 AM
Chain shirt. Its just one less AC.

But four less than full plate, which a Dwarf can wear and keep up with the hobbo.

Zaydos
2010-11-02, 10:58 AM
But four less than full plate, which a Dwarf can wear and keep up with the hobbo.

Hobgoblins have a Dex bonus. A heavy armorer hobgoblin is not a choice playing to their strengths, and LA assumes you are playing to their strengths (SS actually encourages DMs to reduce LA if they're playing heavily against their strengths such as an ogre wizard). Compare a hobgoblin rogue to a dwarf rogue. Dwarf has -10 speed, -1 to AC, -1 to Init, -1 to Reflex, -1 to hit, -1 to most of his important skills (Dex and Cha based ones), and -4 more to Move Silently and has +2 on saves versus spells.

Yes you can argue that a heavy armor dwarf fighter is about equal to a heavy armor hobgoblin fighter but all that proves is the top class fighter is only barely equal to someone playing against their strength.

Psyren
2010-11-02, 11:04 AM
Isn't rogue against the dwarf's strengths also? Not favored class, Cha penalty, speed penalty is only negated in heavy armor. Either way you play it will be disadvantageous to someone.

Amphetryon
2010-11-02, 11:05 AM
Hobgoblins have a Dex bonus. A heavy armorer hobgoblin is not a choice playing to their strengths, and LA assumes you are playing to their strengths (SS actually encourages DMs to reduce LA if they're playing heavily against their strengths such as an ogre wizard). Compare a hobgoblin rogue to a dwarf rogue. Dwarf has -10 speed, -1 to AC, -1 to Init, -1 to Reflex, -1 to hit, -1 to most of his important skills (Dex and Cha based ones), and -4 more to Move Silently and has +2 on saves versus spells.

Yes you can argue that a heavy armor dwarf fighter is about equal to a heavy armor hobgoblin fighter but all that proves is the top class fighter is only barely equal to someone playing against their strength.

To me, all the DEX bonus does for the hobgoblin is makes it easier to qualify for the Dodge (and equivalent) line, which is often useful for a Fighter-type. A DEX 13 still benefits from Full Plate, too, and plays to the hobgoblin's strengths.

Zaydos
2010-11-02, 11:37 AM
But a rogue gains more from it than a fighter; +2 Dex is not a major stat for a heavily armored fighter. It is for a rogue.

And that's the thing dwarf and hobgoblin actually fulfill different roles. Specifically heavy infantry vs scout/light infantry.

Try comparing hobgoblins to elves (admittedly not the strongest PHB race, but not the weakest either) for example and they're just plain better even at what elves are good at.

The fact that hobgoblins are as good fighters as dwarves and humans and fighters are not their best class says something. Remove their LA and they're better than dwarves at everything but heavy armor characters hands down. The only race that can almost compare is humans and that's because of how much splatbooks increase the power from feats.

SensFan
2010-11-02, 12:33 PM
The fact that hobgoblins are as good fighters as dwarves and humans and fighters are not their best class says something. Remove their LA and they're better than dwarves at everything but heavy armor characters hands down. The only race that can almost compare is humans and that's because of how much splatbooks increase the power from feats.
And yet, compared to the PHB races, they'll get harassed much more than any other race, with the possible exception of Half-Orcs. In most campaigns, anyways.

Psyren
2010-11-02, 12:34 PM
I agree, they're too strong for LA 0. But compare them to other LA +1 races and they fall considerably short. Aasimar, for instance, absolutely stomp them.

The goblin race that really needs to be LA 0 are Blues.

Doug Lampert
2010-11-02, 12:38 PM
It makes chasing anything with 30ft speed difficult and running away is likewise problematic. Although thge latter does depend on how often your DM expects you to do that.

Who cares? The fast pursuit can either catch them on a charge (in which case they take lots of attacks without returning any if they keep running) or the fast movers CAN'T catch them on a charge and it's futile.

Either was the slow movers run to keep within striking range if they turn arround.

Figure it out or run some sims, typically up to 2/3rds or so of the party can be slow movers and you're STILL better off if they run, they take more attacks with less return. This gets even better if you include ranged attacks.


So, moving slower than the default 30'/round is not a disadvantage the rest of the party should care about, while moving faster than the default movement rate is a disadvantage that puts that character at fault if she should die as a result of it?

I think I'm missing a step in that thought process.

Deliberately RUNNING AHEAD of the rest of the party is a stupid thing that everyone, including the player of the character in question, agrees makes her at fault if she dies.

If staying together is important, then it's most important to the fast movers.]

You dieing because you insist on moving ahead is not nearly as serious problem for me as it is for you. I'm not sure how you're not seeing this.

As for claims that the opponent will attack and move away, that only works if his speed is over double mine AND he has tumble. Quick: List every core monster with tumble as a skill. And if the foe is faster and stays at range, I believe I mentioned that EVERYONE should have an effective ranged attack, that's FAR more important than speed since flight and other exotic movement modes are fairly common. Fast or slow your PCs should WANT the OpFor to play that game, you're far better equiped, you should be much better at it then they are for a fraction of your resources.

Amphetryon
2010-11-02, 01:08 PM
Deliberately RUNNING AHEAD of the rest of the party is a stupid thing that everyone, including the player of the character in question, agrees makes her at fault if she dies.But deliberately choosing options that make you 10'/round slower than the rest of the party is good tactics? Forcing the rest of the party to go slower, with all the potential tactical issues that entails, is a good thing?

SensFan
2010-11-02, 02:38 PM
But deliberately choosing options that make you 10'/round slower than the rest of the party is good tactics? Forcing the rest of the party to go slower, with all the potential tactical issues that entails, is a good thing?
Considering it lets me have better armor, and carry more crap without needing to buy storage, I'll take all the advantages of Dwarves.

Jack Zander
2010-11-02, 03:01 PM
Considering it lets me have better armor, and carry more crap without needing to buy storage, I'll take all the advantages of Dwarves.

How does being a dwarf let you have better armor?

Cieyrin
2010-11-02, 03:13 PM
How does being a dwarf let you have better armor?

I assume the slowing down factor of Medium and heavier armors being moot for dwarves is the reason, since you don't need to bother with mithral, which can be a pain to get if there isn't a Magic Mart or DM handwaving involved. Mithral doesn't grow on trees and certainly doesn't seem a product of mass production, considering the only people buying them are adventurers, nobility and highly placed military officials.

Psyren
2010-11-02, 03:20 PM
How does being a dwarf let you have better armor?

It doesn't, any more than being a hobgoblin gives you easy access to mithril armor.

(One could argue it's harder for them in most settings, but eh.)

Zaydos
2010-11-02, 03:26 PM
Dwarf in full-plate: 20-ft, double move/charge 40-ft, run 80-ft.
Human in full-plate: 20-ft, double move/charge 40-ft, run 60-ft.

It's rather humorous. But it still has nothing to do with the fact that hobgoblins are not made for that kind of character. They can do it, but they have no particular advantage if they do so (kind of like an aasimar fighter).

I will also say if I had the choice between Aasimar with 1 LA and Hobgoblin with 1 LA for a melee character I'd go with Hobgoblin (+2 Dex and Con, vs +2 Wis and Cha plus energy resistances). It's not actually a "aasimar is clearly superior" situation (aasimar is superior as a cleric or paladin or other Wis/Cha heavy character and is better in those than hobgoblins are as rogues, fighters, etc).

Jack Zander
2010-11-02, 07:35 PM
I assume the slowing down factor of Medium and heavier armors being moot for dwarves is the reason, since you don't need to bother with mithral, which can be a pain to get if there isn't a Magic Mart or DM handwaving involved. Mithral doesn't grow on trees and certainly doesn't seem a product of mass production, considering the only people buying them are adventurers, nobility and highly placed military officials.

Dwarf wears full plate, has 20ft move speed. Hobgoblin wears full plate, gets 20 foot move speed. I really do not see why a hobgoblin wouldn't wear full plate and a dwarf would.

The hobgoblin might choose to wear mithral breastplate instead, but that doesn't mean they are limited to that option. Being a hobgoblin opens up more options than being a dwarf does.

Psyren
2010-11-02, 07:41 PM
The hobgoblin might choose to wear mithral breastplate instead, but that doesn't mean they are limited to that option. Being a hobgoblin opens up more options than being a dwarf does.

I beg to differ; Dwarves have way more options, from special prestige classes to racial subs to special gear to special feats. Even fluffwise, in most settings (almost all the official ones in particular) hobbos are second-class citizens and dwarves aren't, making a hobbo a disadvantageous choice even with 0 LA.

true_shinken
2010-11-02, 08:16 PM
I beg to differ; Dwarves have way more options, from special prestige classes to racial subs to special gear to special feats. Even fluffwise, in most settings (almost all the official ones in particular) hobbos are second-class citizens and dwarves aren't, making a hobbo a disadvantageous choice even with 0 LA.

He meant options about armor. And you know it.

Psyren
2010-11-02, 09:02 PM
He meant options about armor. And you know it.

If you're comparing one race choice to another, limiting yourself to one point of comparison is nonsensical. You have to look at the whole package.

"Hobgoblins make strictly better rogues" can't be used as justification for their LA (or more accurately, justification for not giving them zero LA.) Otherwise, only Hobgoblin rogues would have LA.

SensFan
2010-11-02, 09:04 PM
Dwarf wears full plate, has 20ft move speed. Hobgoblin wears full plate, gets 20 foot move speed. I really do not see why a hobgoblin wouldn't wear full plate and a dwarf would.

The hobgoblin might choose to wear mithral breastplate instead, but that doesn't mean they are limited to that option. Being a hobgoblin opens up more options than being a dwarf does.
Except for the fact that the Dwarves are slower is one of their disadvantages. If he wears medium armor, he loses the disadvantage.

true_shinken
2010-11-02, 09:24 PM
If you're comparing one race choice to another, limiting yourself to one point of comparison is nonsensical. You have to look at the whole package.

"Hobgoblins make strictly better rogues" can't be used as justification for their LA (or more accurately, justification for not giving them zero LA.) Otherwise, only Hobgoblin rogues would have LA.

Aasimars are usually only good on classes that get alter self and/or have a Wis/Cha focus. Goliaths are usually only good for melee classes. Do you think they should only have LA on that cases?
Or rather, dwarf is only good for medium+ armor classes. Do you think it should get free LA for templates when used for a wizard or sorcerer?

Psyren
2010-11-02, 09:36 PM
Aasimars are usually only good on classes that get alter self and/or have a Wis/Cha focus. Goliaths are usually only good for melee classes. Do you think they should only have LA on that cases?

"Usually" qualifier notwithstanding - for Aasimar, free Martial Weapon proficiency is a boon to several other classes besides the ones you listed. Immunity to Charm/Hold Person and similar effects is just as useful at low levels. Goliaths can be effective at range with one of several throwing builds. Their advantages do not only apply to the cases you have described.


Or rather, dwarf is only good for medium+ armor classes. Do you think it should get free LA for templates when used for a wizard or sorcerer?

That one ability of dwarves is only relevant with a medium+ armor class. The others can be just as useful in keeping your PC alive. It's campaign specific - like the availability of mithril.

true_shinken
2010-11-02, 09:45 PM
"Usually" qualifier notwithstanding - for Aasimar, free Martial Weapon proficiency is a boon to several other classes besides the ones you listed. Immunity to Charm/Hold Person and similar effects is just as useful at low levels. Goliaths can be effective at range with one of several throwing builds. Their advantages do not only apply to the cases you have described.
Well, that's what 'usually' is there for, isn't it?


That one ability of dwarves is only relevant with a medium+ armor class. The others can be just as useful in keeping your PC alive. It's campaign specific - like the availability of mithril.
Other than the bonus on saves against spells, the other abilities are corner cases. Even an elf's bonus against enchantment and immunity to sleep might save your hide every now and then, but we all know that elves are the worst race out of the PHB.
Dwarves have a weakness in 20ft speed. Hobgoblins get a few stat bonuses and no penalties; they make for better Rogues, Swashbucklers, Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, Sorcerers, Psions, Wilders, Shugenjas, Wu Jen, Wizards and Factoti than dwarves. I might even have left a class or two out of this list. Oh, Swordsages.

Psyren
2010-11-02, 09:56 PM
{{scrubbed}}

Thurbane
2010-11-02, 10:11 PM
FWIW, add me to the "Hobgoblins are LA +0.5" camp. They don't really deserve LA +1, but comparing them to nearly all other LA +0 races, the net +4 to abilities ranks them higher...

As others have said, they either deserve more to justify their +1, or they need to be scaled down slightly to make them +0.

true_shinken
2010-11-02, 10:17 PM
FWIW, add me to the "Hobgoblins are LA +0.5" camp. They don't really deserve LA +1, but comparing them to nearly all other LA +0 races, the net +4 to abilities ranks them higher...

As others have said, they either deserve more to justify their +1, or they need to be scaled down slightly to make them +0.

I agree. In my games, due to mindflayer enslavering, all goblinoids are psionic.
We all know Blues don't deserve their LA :smallbiggrin: