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View Full Version : My character wants to defy fate. How? [3.5]



Callista
2010-10-30, 12:20 PM
I'm trying to look into all the options I have for manipulating the way the dice roll--i.e., reducing randomness in D&D. So... yeah, I'd like some input about how to gain abilities that can do things like stopping a friend from falling due to a bad Balance check, forcing an enemy to reroll that critical hit, etc. Currently I have Human Wizard 5 with a very uninteresting build but great rolls for stats. (Also: Just how bad is the Fatespinner PrC?)

blackjack217
2010-10-30, 12:32 PM
what stats? what build?

Callista
2010-10-30, 12:38 PM
Wizard 5, no specialty. STR 12, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 19, WIS 14, CHA 14. Feats: Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Initiative, Combat Casting. Skills: Concentration, a bunch of Knowledge skills, Spellcraft.

I'm not looking for sheer power here; my group is not generally powergaming types and it'd be a bad idea to do anything too over-the-top. Versatility is more my style.

Lhurgyof
2010-10-30, 12:38 PM
Luck feats help, fortune's friend (prestiege class), there's a luck-stealing Prestige class, as well as a psionic power that allows a re-roll.

Eldariel
2010-10-30, 12:41 PM
Fatespinner [CArc] is a nice start. 4 levels of it gets you all manner of niceness. Planar Touchstone [PlH]: Catalogues of Enlightenment picking Luck-domain would earn you a reroll too. There's a level 9 spell in Races of Destiny called "Choose Destiny" from Destiny-domain; you can eventually pick it up with Arcane Disciple and 19 Wisdom if that's available. There's also Alter Fortune [PHBII] spell that's great for such.

chiasaur11
2010-10-30, 01:53 PM
Right.

Cut the die in two mid throw. You'll always roll 7s.

On six sided die, at any rate.

Fate will HATE you.

Urpriest
2010-10-30, 01:59 PM
Right.

Cut the die in two mid throw. You'll always roll 7s.

On six sided die, at any rate.

Fate will HATE you.

Ah Cohen the Barbarian, we miss you so.

Logalmier
2010-10-30, 02:40 PM
(Also: Just how bad is the Fatespinner PrC?)

Answer: Not bad at all, at least for the first four levels. Easy to qualify for, with some nice abilities. Generally the last level isn't worth it though. Other then that, if you're aiming for ways to defy fate, Fatespinner is a good place to start.

Eldariel
2010-10-30, 02:43 PM
Answer: Not bad at all, at least for the first four levels. Easy to qualify for, with some nice abilities. Generally the last level isn't worth it though. Other then that, if you're aiming for ways to defy fate, Fatespinner is a good place to start.

To be a bit more enthusiastic, Fatespinner is awesome! Reroll, ability to make rolls easier or harder, tons of minor alteration abilities and full casting; yes please! Yeah, 5th level sucks but other than that, the class is pure dynamite! Trivial to enter too; few skill points (Wizard, you have plenty), and nothing else!

So yeah, wanna spin fate? You just found your class. It loses to the best PrCs (Incantatrix, Initiate, etc.) but they're just too good; out of all the "fair" PrCs, Fatespinner is quite possibly the best.

dsmiles
2010-10-30, 05:41 PM
Really? Nobody likes Seal Fate? -10 to an opponent's next save? Save or die, here I come.

Eldariel
2010-10-30, 05:44 PM
Really? Nobody likes Seal Fate? -10 to an opponent's next save? Save or die, here I come.

It only works against opponents with HD equal to, or lower than, yours. Most monsters advance in HD much faster than you, and BBEGs are as a rule higher level than the party. That leaves humanoid mooks as the only viable targets, against which you simply don't need it in the first place and indeed, probably don't want to use Save-or-Dies on as it's simply unnecessary.

Overall, that's just not worth losing a caster level over. If it worked regardless of HD, it'd be a great option but as it stands, that limitor pretty much excludes all the opponents you'd actually want to use it on.

dsmiles
2010-10-30, 05:46 PM
It only works against opponents with HD equal to, or lower than, yours. Most monsters advance in HD much faster than you, and BBEGs are as a rule higher level than the party. That leaves humanoid mooks as the only viable targets, against which you simply don't need it in the first place and indeed, probably don't want to use Save-or-Dies on as it's simply unnecessary.

Overall, that's just not worth losing a caster level over. If it worked regardless of HD, it'd be a great option but as it stands, that limitor pretty much excludes all the opponents you'd actually want to use it on.

But think of the fun you could have with Baleful Polymorph...

POOF!!! You're a newt!

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-30, 05:50 PM
I'd put MotAO and Master Specialist (for some specializations) above Fatespinner in the category of "fair" PrCs, but I grant that Fatespinner has ridiculously easy entry prerequisites.

Greensleeve
2010-10-30, 05:51 PM
Also, unluck is a pretty kick-ass 3rd level spell. Found in the SpC, it forces the target to re-roll everything for 1 round/level. Only downside is SR: Yes and Save: Will Negates.

Ryuk01
2010-10-30, 05:51 PM
To Quote TLN:

"Fatespinner: this one's good. Really good. At the low, low cost of 5 ranks in Profession(gambler), you gain your Fatespinner level in "spin points", which you can add to spell DCs one at a time or all together--later, you get to automatically stabilize, make yourself remake a save, make friends or enemies remake saves... and the first four out of five levels don't lose a caster level. The fifth one DOES, but it lets you give an enemy with HD equal to or less than yours -10 to a save once a day... which is possibly worth it, since it can mean a guaranteed kill. The first 4 out of 5 levels are a no-brainer; any wizard would do well to take them. The fifth one--think carefully, but it can be worth it. Due to the HD limitation, it usually isn't--but it can be.":smallsmile:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-10-30, 05:54 PM
Also, unluck is a pretty kick-ass 3rd level spell. Found in the SpC, it forces the target to re-roll everything for 1 round/level. Only downside is SR: Yes and Save: Will Negates.That said, it doesn't hold a candle to Slow.

Edit: I should mention that Fatespinner seems to be exactly what the OP is looking for, and my previous post was simply intended to praise two other fine arcane PrCs, not to downplay Fatespinner.

Greensleeve
2010-10-30, 06:09 PM
That said, it doesn't hold a candle to Slow.

Edit: I should mention that Fatespinner seems to be exactly what the OP is looking for, and my previous post was simply intended to praise two other fine arcane PrCs, not to downplay Fatespinner.

Agreed. However, it is a mess-with-chance sort of spell, which is what the OOP was looking for.

And I'm going to second third whatever Fatespinner. Very much in line with what's being looked for.

dsmiles
2010-10-30, 06:13 PM
Ohh...no bite on the newt comment? You guys are no fun. :smalltongue:

absolmorph
2010-10-30, 06:15 PM
But think of the fun you could have with Baleful Polymorph...

POOF!!! You're a newt!
But what if he gets better?

I'd add something, but all the stuff I can think of have already been posted (Fatespinner, Master Specialist (maybe Divination?), if this were a new character you could try specializing in Divination).

Force
2010-10-30, 06:27 PM
It only works against opponents with HD equal to, or lower than, yours. Most monsters advance in HD much faster than you, and BBEGs are as a rule higher level than the party. That leaves humanoid mooks as the only viable targets, against which you simply don't need it in the first place and indeed, probably don't want to use Save-or-Dies on as it's simply unnecessary.

Overall, that's just not worth losing a caster level over. If it worked regardless of HD, it'd be a great option but as it stands, that limitor pretty much excludes all the opponents you'd actually want to use it on.

Start with Enervation or (quickened) Fell Drain sonic snap and apply SoD the next round?

Eldariel
2010-10-30, 06:57 PM
Start with Enervation or (quickened) Fell Drain sonic snap and apply SoD the next round?

...at the point where you're capable of applying negative levels to the BBEG, you really shouldn't need Seal Fate anymore. Just empower split ray Enervation him real hard into oblivion. The easier version is probably pumping your own HD with Inspire Greatness, Dusk Giant Polymorph, etc. and thus exceed the target HD but meh, even that's too much effort IMHO. Fatespinner Sublime Chord Bard seems fun tho :smallcool:

Runestar
2010-10-30, 07:06 PM
There are some feats which let you take 10, such as arcane mastery (take 10 on opposed caster lv checks), and steady concentration (take 10 on concentration checks).

Combine steady concentration with the diamond mind save boosters from ToB and you can make your saves with ease. And you can always acquire them via heroics if you can't afford to take them with feats. :smallsmile:

Private-Prinny
2010-10-30, 10:01 PM
Fatespinner is good, taking 10 is good, but this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9208735&postcount=95) is how you do luck manipulation right.

true_shinken
2010-10-30, 10:11 PM
Fatespinner is good, taking 10 is good, but this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9208735&postcount=95) is how you do luck manipulation right.

Prinny \o/
Haven't seen you around in a while!

Private-Prinny
2010-10-31, 12:17 AM
Prinny \o/
Haven't seen you around in a while!

I've been busy for pretty much the entire month of October between my RL D&D group, classes, college applications, and various music programs. Now I'm back. :smallbiggrin:

On-topic: Fortune's Friend is quite flavorful, and is good at what it does (namely, getting tons of re-rolls), but it isn't remotely worth it for any sort of spellcaster, so you're a bit out of luck there.

Callista
2010-10-31, 12:33 AM
Yep, I want to keep my spellcasting as much as humanly possible, especially early on. I'm not too worried about power level at the higher levels, because in the teens, a wizard who's two levels below the fighters in terms of spellcasting will still be balanced; but at level 5? Uh-uh.

Psyren
2010-10-31, 01:17 AM
Fatespinner is great. Next!

Are you playing Eberron? Action points also manipulate die rolls.

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-31, 01:25 AM
Persistent Choose Destiny, from the Destiny domain in Races of the Wild. Yeah, level 9th spell, but 24 hours of rerolls on skill checks, ability checks, saving throws, and attack rolls is well...awesome.

Psyren
2010-10-31, 10:29 AM
Persistent Choose Destiny, from the Destiny domain in Races of the Wild. Yeah, level 9th spell, but 24 hours of rerolls on skill checks, ability checks, saving throws, and attack rolls is well...awesome.

Isn't the Destiny domain in Races of Destiny? :smalltongue:

BeholderSlayer
2010-10-31, 10:32 AM
Isn't the Destiny domain in Races of Destiny? :smalltongue:

hah :smallamused: yes, yes it is. was typing in a rush with my girlfriend bugging me.

Flickerdart
2010-10-31, 10:37 AM
Fatespinner is great. Next!

Are you playing Eberron? Action points also manipulate die rolls.
Action points strike me less as avoiding destiny and more like embracing it - you're too much of a big damn hero to throw your sword at the BBEG and miss.

Psyren
2010-10-31, 10:48 AM
Action points strike me less as avoiding destiny and more like embracing it - you're too much of a big damn hero to throw your sword at the BBEG and miss.

Well yes, but that applies to everything else in this thread. :smalltongue:
And there are feats to improve the action point system after all, so those would definitely count for the OP's character.

Callista
2010-10-31, 01:42 PM
I'm looking at Profession (Gambler) and seeing a real RP opportunity here... it's completely against anything the party would expect from this character. I'm just looking forward to seeing the looks on their faces when I explain that my character (who is so conventional that she has just had her first drink of dwarven ale) is going to seek out the nearest gambling den, hoping to learn about fate... :smallbiggrin: But it's exactly what she'd do, faced with constant uncertainty. She'd want to learn to count cards... in everyday life. Yeah, I think I can work with this.

blackjack217
2010-10-31, 02:27 PM
Wizard 5, no specialty. STR 12, DEX 16, CON 14, INT 19, WIS 14, CHA 14. Feats: Craft Wondrous Item, Improved Initiative, Combat Casting. Skills: Concentration, a bunch of Knowledge skills, Spellcraft.

I'm not looking for sheer power here; my group is not generally powergaming types and it'd be a bad idea to do anything too over-the-top. Versatility is more my style.

your lowest stat is a 12... how did you pull that one off?

Callista
2010-10-31, 04:24 PM
We used "4d6, re-roll 1s, drop lowest" to generate stats. Considering the method, I wasn't much more than slightly lucky.

jiriku
2010-10-31, 05:47 PM
The void disciple base class in my sig is essentially built around manipulating fate and karma, and contains numerous ways to get rerolls or "load the dice" on specific rolls. Also makes a bang-up diviner and magical scout. Of course, it requires that your DM accept homebrew, and that you be able to rebuild your character to the class, but even if you can't use it directly, the spell list might give you a few ideas.