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Galdor
2010-10-30, 06:10 PM
Does anybody have any tips on replacing experience points with some other system? To me, its just a lot of unnecessary number crunching, and you can easily manage level increases by making all characters level up at the end of each adventure. The only problems occur when you start getting into spells with xp costs and crafting magic items. I believe there is a gold piece equivalent to xp, but for crafting items there is already the materials cost.
So, any thoughts?

Quietus
2010-10-30, 07:42 PM
Trade out XP costs for 5x their amount in gold; A 300 XP cost becomes 1500 gold.

Crafting : Let the players with those feats craft at a reduced price. 75% base cost, perhaps. This is more valuable if you enforce the "You can't get that here" rule of thumb, as far as magic-marts go, because now they get to feel important; No one in any city nearby can make a +6 cloak of charisma, but they can, and they can do it cheaper than it'd cost in a store anyway! If you have easy magic-marts, then just drop the XP component of crafting. It won't really make a huge difference in the long run.

Kyrthain
2010-10-30, 08:11 PM
Just mentioning (since I'm playing in the campaign in question) that the other guy is playing an artificer, so just dropping exp component may have more of an impact than usual.

John Campbell
2010-10-31, 02:53 AM
Because of the way the CR system works, XP costs are almost entirely meaningless. Spending XP means you fall behind the rest of the party, so you're lower level for an encounter or two, so you get more XP for those encounters than the rest of the party, so you catch up again.

A few campaigns back, I played a crafting wizard from 2nd to 18th. I spent practically every copper piece I scrounged up on materials for crafting or spells to meet the prereqs for crafting, and then made more stuff for the rest of the party using their treasure at 75% list price, and used my profits from that to make more stuff for myself - all with corresponding XP costs - plus I permanencied a bunch of spells on myself, and on top of that got my familiar killed once and ate the XP penalty for that.

I never fell more than a level behind the rest of the party, and that never for more than two encounters. On at least two occasions, when I was down a level for a major encounter, I got enough extra XP for it that my XP total actually surpassed the rest of the party's.

You could just straight-up eliminate XP costs, and the only real effect it would have is simplifying the math.

PersonMan
2010-10-31, 04:31 AM
I've found that this (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm) usually helps with figuring out how much XP for everyone. Calculate the XP they get for every encounter/monster they beat(I tally up how many monsters of each CR they beat) and give it to them between/after sessions.

If you still don't want to use XP, I usually give something like 1/2 the XP needed to get to next level as crafting XP.

kyoryu
2010-10-31, 01:04 PM
Does anybody have any tips on replacing experience points with some other system? To me, its just a lot of unnecessary number crunching, and you can easily manage level increases by making all characters level up at the end of each adventure. The only problems occur when you start getting into spells with xp costs and crafting magic items. I believe there is a gold piece equivalent to xp, but for crafting items there is already the materials cost.
So, any thoughts?

There's an XP cost for crafting magic items as they give serious mechanical bonuses to crafters, allowing them to be at greater than their "normal" power level.

This may also be true of melee classes, but it's not nearly as bad as what various wands/scrolls/rods etc. can do, especially if the caster has access to a variety of them (handy haversack, etc.)

As far as actually getting rid of xp, I've always liked the idea of a system where you had to achieve a certain number of 'tasks', possibly rated in various ways, to achieve the next level.

RelentlessImp
2010-10-31, 01:08 PM
As far as actually getting rid of xp, I've always liked the idea of a system where you had to achieve a certain number of 'tasks', possibly rated in various ways, to achieve the next level.

The problem with this is it fosters an already prevalent air of "grinding" for your levels. Just have them level up when the story makes sense (end of a mini-arc, for example) and don't do anything at all that forces them to do things for experience.

Time being the only factor that actually penalizes characters, just have crafting take time. Allow an Artificer's Craft Reserve to reduce that time (Points equal to the amount they would spend otherwise per 1 day reduction). Boom. No more experience costs.

kyoryu
2010-10-31, 01:34 PM
The problem with this is it fosters an already prevalent air of "grinding" for your levels. Just have them level up when the story makes sense (end of a mini-arc, for example) and don't do anything at all that forces them to do things for experience.

Time being the only factor that actually penalizes characters, just have crafting take time. Allow an Artificer's Craft Reserve to reduce that time (Points equal to the amount they would spend otherwise per 1 day reduction). Boom. No more experience costs.

Depends on how the tasks are laid out. If they're things like "defeat a creature your level+x" or "complete a major quest", then they shouldn't get grindy.

In fact, at the coarsest level of tasks, it *becomes* "when it's appropriate to the story."

MMO-like "unlock 10 doors" is exactly what I *wouldn't* do.

Endarire
2010-10-31, 03:26 PM
Just give levels at plot-appropriate times. Ditching the XP cost from item creation is a minor point. Gold is a greater limiting factor, since GP isn't guaranteed like XP is.

Galdor
2010-10-31, 04:51 PM
Because of the way the CR system works, XP costs are almost entirely meaningless. Spending XP means you fall behind the rest of the party, so you're lower level for an encounter or two, so you get more XP for those encounters than the rest of the party, so you catch up again.

That is a very good point. Still, i'd like to see some sort of limiting factor, preferably not gold or time penalties, because crafting already has a cost for both.


If you still don't want to use XP, I usually give something like 1/2 the XP needed to get to next level as crafting XP.

So this would be like everybody getting craft points, but an artificer gets more? I like it.

Skorj
2010-10-31, 05:55 PM
I agree with the theme of this thread, but I feel that folks so far have overlooked somehting critical: "going up levels" is the principal reward that the DM gives to players in D&D (and most RPGs), and therefore gives the DM a certain negotiating power that should not be casually discarded(as not every gaming group is a cooperative as one would like).

Whether you just give levels, or use a simplified system like "the XP cost to level up equals the number of the next level", you should give this reward for moving the plot along. It's key that you don't give/get XP for wasting time doing things that don't advance the plot. Sandbox or traintracks, it doesn't matter, XP comes from helping to tell the story, not from just being destructive (or worse, disruptive) because you're bored!

So in a perfect group, that's the same as "give a level when it fits the story", but not all groups are perfect.

Zeta Kai
2010-10-31, 10:53 PM
If anyone is interested, I made a system for replacing XP with the advancement system from Final Fantasy X, ergo the Sphere Grid system (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5607583#post5607583). It is useful for advancing classes in an unusual way; instead of traditional levels, each sphere gives a single small bonus to a stat, or a class feature/feat/etc. It's very modular, & there's a lot of room for customization, which means that you could, if you worked the system, have a lot of MP/"spells" along with a high BAB. It should prove interesting to anyone who wants to drop XP; you can keep most of the existing d20 mechanics, & still tear out & replace leveling with something else entirely.

ericgrau
2010-10-31, 11:03 PM
Fortunately for you xp and the other game mechanics are more or less independent. You could use any system you want without worrying about problems. Even arbitrary level ups works.

As said crafting xp isn't a big deal. For a few items you could ignore it. Or you could make up some kind of small cost for more items. For example 5 gp per xp. Or for example if the party has a major crafter you could leave him 1 level behind the party and give him (level x 300) crafting xp each time you level up the party. This would be roughly the same as the normal rules while letting you use whatever leveling system you want. Or if he uses half as much leave him half a level behind etc.