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true_shinken
2010-10-30, 08:48 PM
OK, some of you might remember the Troll Prince - a guy in my campaign that is very hard to kill and a very good leader (I was never really sure on how to build him, but I picture him as a handsome young man able to assume a trollform to fight - maybe a (half-troll?) sorcerer/marshall that casts trollform).
The thing is, I'm reading Dragons of Summer Flame now. The idea of an evil army that is actually honor-bound and respects their enemies made me smile. It would raise morale and all.

I was wondering, what would be the best monsters to use in this kind of army? Think of monsters usually seen as savage, ruthless, that are suddenly acknowledged as true warriors, properly trained and equiped. I'm steering away from humanoids, but I need critters able to speak and with Int 8+.

All suggestions are welcome, from the monsters themselves to how building them.

Boci
2010-10-30, 09:04 PM
Not a monster, but a crusader with some white raven and devoted spirit maneuvers is tough to kill and has some abilites to buff allies. You could have the monster take levels as a crusader.

Urpriest
2010-10-30, 09:06 PM
Well if you were using humanoids then hobgoblins would be ideal for this.

Maugs are potentially sinister and yet honorable, though they're a bit weak on the sinister. Devils are a legitimate choice, but come with their own fluff baggage.

Ooh, Minotaurs, if you're fine with monstrous humanoids. For that matter, most giants. Hell, trolls themselves could be very cool with such an archetype. I think there's a picture of a troll samurai in one of the books that definitely gets the feel across.

Aidan305
2010-10-30, 09:06 PM
Hobgoblins might work for such an army. They're militant, and certainly evil, but they tend towards honour in battle. Khaasta would be a decent fit as well, but for the fact that they don't tend to work well in large groups. A dragon might well head up such an army, especially a Blue or Bronze.

Worlok
2010-10-30, 09:07 PM
I'm steering away from humanoids, but I need critters able to speak and with Int 8+.
Devils, perhaps. Being Lawful Evil helps with being honor-bound, being outsiders helps with not necessarily being humanoid. Then again, some sort of Inevitable variant might work, as could Awakened Animals of some sort, slightly refluffed Worgs and Barghests or simply Wyverns and other low-power dragon-types. I hope that helps, at least a little.

true_shinken
2010-10-30, 09:29 PM
Not a monster, but a crusader with some white raven and devoted spirit maneuvers is tough to kill and has some abilites to buff allies. You could have the monster take levels as a crusader.
Hm, I certainly could use Crusaders for commander-type monsters. Maybe stretch the Dragonlance reference and have them worship Tiamat.


Well if you were using humanoids then hobgoblins would be ideal for this.
I'm trying to avoid humanoids, actually.


Maugs are potentially sinister and yet honorable, though they're a bit weak on the sinister.
Hmmm, yeah, maugs could work. Don't really like them, but it could work.


Devils are a legitimate choice, but come with their own fluff baggage.
My first thought were devils, actually. Maybe I'll use them for elite troops/assassins. Stuff like that.


Ooh, Minotaurs, if you're fine with monstrous humanoids. For that matter, most giants. Hell, trolls themselves could be very cool with such an archetype. I think there's a picture of a troll samurai in one of the books that definitely gets the feel across.
A few trolls and minotaurs, check.


Hobgoblins might work for such an army.
Like I said before, I'm steering away from humanoids.

Khaasta would be a decent fit as well, but for the fact that they don't tend to work well in large groups.
I'm not familiar with those.

A dragon might well head up such an army, especially a Blue or Bronze.
I toyed with the idea of having the troll prince be half-dragon, to give him immunities (troll regeneration + energy immunities, very nice).
I even thought of going Bone Knight with him, meaning he would be immune to mostly anything.



Devils, perhaps. Being Lawful Evil helps with being honor-bound, being outsiders helps with not necessarily being humanoid.
Yeah, surely I'll use a few devils.

Then again, some sort of Inevitable variant might work, as could Awakened Animals of some sort, slightly refluffed Worgs and Barghests or simply Wyverns and other low-power dragon-types. I hope that helps, at least a little.
Inevitables are quite different from what I want, but I like the idea of awakened animals. An army where even horses are actually knights on their own!

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-30, 09:41 PM
I'm not familiar with those.

Google (of dubious canonicity) says:
The khaasta are a race of lizard-like creatures who trade with, steal from, and do dirty work for all manner of unsavory individuals acrss the planes. Their hides are fairly resplendant, each detailed with a resplendant series of small, durable scales, which glint a variety of colors. They have long, powerful tails and blunt lizard-like snouts, with a small crest running the length of the head and back.
A race obsessed with progression by a convoluted set of social imperatives, the khaasta are normally untrustworthy and self-serving. Normal khaasta morals include the right to take from the weak, the need for ascension through the outfighting and backstabbing of your bretheren, bringing down the strong, and doing anything to assert your dominance over others

Interestingly, their CR is 3, their HD is 3, and their ECL is 3; possibly worth playing. They're from the Fiend Folio, and most notably have 18 Str and +6 Natural Armor.

Worlok
2010-10-30, 09:45 PM
An army where even horses are actually knights on their own!
I didn't even think of that when I typed the idea, but it is awesome. :smallcool:

true_shinken
2010-10-30, 09:56 PM
A race obsessed with progression by a convoluted set of social imperatives, the khaasta are normally untrustworthy and self-serving. Normal khaasta morals include the right to take from the weak, the need for ascension through the outfighting and backstabbing of your bretheren, bringing down the strong, and doing anything to assert your dominance over others

Hm, I'd have to work with khaasta completely dominated by the troll prince, then. He could have crushed their society completely and only those who followed his 'honorable' path were allowed to survive.

Quietus
2010-10-30, 09:57 PM
How powerful are we talking? There's always the Nagas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/naga.htm); which range from 7-10, but they're a very nonstandard type of "army"... however, with each of them casting as a Sorcerer of generally one level below their CR, they'd be a very powerful moving artillery-troop. You could use other snake-shaped creatures as the foot soldiers; You've got Thoqqua as CR2 shock troops, Gricks for CR3 grunts, various snakes at all stages..

Actually, on that thought - Yuan-Ti could work well for this. Humanoid in shape, so you can really twist the "knight" angle. Generally smart, and again, you can use various controlled snakes as lower-end grunts as needed. Your players will hate you for the poison, though.

Alternatively, go with the Giant theme. Ettins and Trolls as grunt troops, with either class-leveled individuals leading the army, or higher-grade giants for generals and such. Various boulder-tossers as siege weapons, and nothing's more frightening than having a giant with the rock-throwing ability tossing trolls - or pieces of them, which they can regenerate from - into the castle.

true_shinken
2010-10-30, 10:04 PM
How powerful are we talking? There's always the Nagas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/naga.htm); which range from 7-10, but they're a very nonstandard type of "army"... however, with each of them casting as a Sorcerer of generally one level below their CR, they'd be a very powerful moving artillery-troop. You could use other snake-shaped creatures as the foot soldiers; You've got Thoqqua as CR2 shock troops, Gricks for CR3 grunts, various snakes at all stages.. Actually, on that thought - Yuan-Ti could work well for this.
Hm, snake theme does not fit, really. I'm going for a 'real knight' feel, with armor, shield and the like. Yuan-ti particlarly play a special role in my world.



Alternatively, go with the Giant theme. Ettins and Trolls as grunt troops, with either class-leveled individuals leading the army, or higher-grade giants for generals and such. Various boulder-tossers as siege weapons, and nothing's more frightening than having a giant with the rock-throwing ability tossing trolls - or pieces of them, which they can regenerate from - into the castle.
Hmm, giants looks like a very good option indeed. Giants throwing trolls is just awesome!

LibraryOgre
2010-10-30, 10:53 PM
Your main bad guy might be an Ogre Mage. Regenerates everything but fire and acid, can look like regular person (or troll) at will, and has a variety of spell-like abilities. You can use that one pretty much straight up.


Well if you were using humanoids then hobgoblins would be ideal for this.

My thought coincides with this.


Maugs are potentially sinister and yet honorable, though they're a bit weak on the sinister.

Besides... they're kinda silly... :smallbiggrin:

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~horkana/mog/images/mog01.jpg

true_shinken
2010-11-01, 01:48 AM
Your main bad guy might be an Ogre Mage. Regenerates everything but fire and acid, can look like regular person (or troll) at will, and has a variety of spell-like abilities. You can use that one pretty much straight up.

Hm, CR might be little on the strong side here. I'd need class levels to flesh him out and I need him at CR 10 at most.

Urpriest
2010-11-01, 08:20 AM
Hm, CR might be little on the strong side here. I'd need class levels to flesh him out and I need him at CR 10 at most.

Ah, and I was going to suggest the Elemental Mages from one of the later Monster Manuals...if an Ogre Mage is too high level, though, they will be as well.

Runestar
2010-11-01, 08:27 AM
What about the monster makeover version of the ogre mage?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060721a

At cr5, it gives you 5-7 (depending on whether they are associated or not) class lvs to play around with.

jiriku
2010-11-01, 08:32 AM
War trolls are described as skilled, disciplined troops. At CR 12 each, however, they might be out of your price range.

Fouredged Sword
2010-11-01, 08:38 AM
You could restat them to lower that though. Just add back in fire weakness and maybe lower the stats and HD to more level apropriate levels. I have always used trolls as starting as small and advanceing with HD indefinatly. I have liked trolls as imortal unless killed and always slowly growing.

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-01, 09:54 AM
Why are you avoiding Humanoids but not avoiding humanoids?

The difference between an Ogre and a Hobgoblin isn't that much.

Further more Goliaths could make good foot soldiers and Varags are good skirmishers.

Coidzor
2010-11-01, 10:15 AM
Hobgoblins might work for such an army. They're militant, and certainly evil, but they tend towards honour in battle. Khaasta would be a decent fit as well, but for the fact that they don't tend to work well in large groups. A dragon might well head up such an army, especially a Blue or Bronze.

Oh how right you are...:smallamused:

true_shinken
2010-11-01, 10:26 AM
Why are you avoiding Humanoids but not avoiding humanoids?

The difference between an Ogre and a Hobgoblin isn't that much.

Further more Goliaths could make good foot soldiers and Varags are good skirmishers.

Humanoids usually don't feel enough like monsters. I might use mongrelfolk, though.
Varags could work.

Calmar
2010-11-01, 10:37 AM
OK, some of you might remember the Troll Prince - a guy in my campaign that is very hard to kill and a very good leader (I was never really sure on how to build him, but I picture him as a handsome young man able to assume a trollform to fight - maybe a (half-troll?) sorcerer/marshall that casts trollform).
The thing is, I'm reading Dragons of Summer Flame now. The idea of an evil army that is actually honor-bound and respects their enemies made me smile. It would raise morale and all.

I was wondering, what would be the best monsters to use in this kind of army? Think of monsters usually seen as savage, ruthless, that are suddenly acknowledged as true warriors, properly trained and equiped. I'm steering away from humanoids, but I need critters able to speak and with Int 8+.

All suggestions are welcome, from the monsters themselves to how building them.

Troll Prince sounds inspiring. Without knowing about the world, the area he's operating in and his goals, my spontaneous monster ideas are these:


Lizardfolk as bulk of the army. There's no reason for them to be as primitive as they are commonly described. Imagine armored lizardmen wielding weapons of steel. Plus, they are not even evil.

Gargoyles and/or harpies as shock troops. They are 'earthy' creatures and therefore fit to the troll's theme, I think.

Basilisks, wyverns and hydras as warbeasts.

Medusas and hags might function as ambivalent allies and add to the spellcasting power of the army.

Earth and water elementals and creatures as summons of choice for the armies spellcasters.

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-01, 10:41 AM
Humanoids usually don't feel enough like monsters. I might use mongrelfolk, though.
Varags could work.

The point i was trying to make is that Most giants are just big Humanoids (goliaths aren't even large) so it seems like you're vetoing stuff for the wrong reasons.

Gnolls are more monstrous in my eyes than Goliaths but you dismiss Gnolls automatically for being Humanoids but might consider Goliaths because they are listed as Giants. Thats just racist :smallwink:

BTW Gnolls, Flind Gnolls, Lizardmen, Goatfolk, Yakfolk, Mindflayers, Umberhulks, Rakshasas are all things you might consider. (the 2 silly folk names are actually serious suggestions)

true_shinken
2010-11-01, 10:44 AM
Troll Prince sounds inspiring. Without knowing about the world, the area he's operating in and his goals, my spontaneous monster ideas are these:


Lizardfolk as bulk of the army. There's no reason for them to be as primitive as they are commonly described. Imagine armored lizardmen wielding weapons of steel. Plus, they are not even evil.

Gargoyles and/or harpies as shock troops. They are 'earthy' creatures and therefore fit to the troll's theme, I think.

Basilisks, wyverns and hydras as warbeasts.

Medusas and hags might function as ambivalent allies and add to the spellcasting power of the army.

Earth and water elementals and creatures as summons of choice for the armies spellcasters.


Wow, nice suggestions. I specially like gargoyles and harpies as shock troops.

Flickerdart
2010-11-01, 10:44 AM
Ikea Tarrasques are the answer. They're trolls, too...somewhere under the voidmind half-farspawn wereshark half-dragon half-golem bits.

big teej
2010-11-01, 10:49 AM
You could restat them to lower that though. Just add back in fire weakness and maybe lower the stats and HD to more level apropriate levels. I have always used trolls as starting as small and advanceing with HD indefinatly. I have liked trolls as imortal unless killed and always slowly growing.

There's a snake like that in my world :smalltongue::smallcool:

true_shinken
2010-11-01, 10:51 AM
Gnolls are more monstrous in my eyes than Goliaths but you dismiss Gnolls automatically for being Humanoids but might consider Goliaths because they are listed as Giants. Thats just racist :smallwink:

BTW Gnolls, Flind Gnolls, Lizardmen, Goatfolk, Yakfolk, Mindflayers, Umberhulks, Rakshasas are all things you might consider. (the 2 silly folk names are actually serious suggestions)

Gnolls are monstrous humanoids, not humanoids. ^^
I used them as the main enemies of a specific race, so I don't know if I should use gnolls again. Same with mindflayers.
Umber hulks would definetely work, though.

Telonius
2010-11-01, 11:02 AM
Janni or Efreeti might fit the bill, though they'd be a pretty powerful force. Other suggestions:

Azer
Salamander
Skum
Formians
Rakshasa
Mephits

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-01, 11:16 AM
Gnolls are monstrous humanoids, not humanoids.

Then look at a Bugbear and an Ogre. Either way you get my point that creature type is a rather silly primary metric to go on.

Kobold= not ok Dragonwrought Kobold= ok?


Also look at those blind guys from the MM1 can't remember the name.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 11:43 AM
These guys?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG141.jpg
They are called grimlocks.

BRC
2010-11-01, 11:45 AM
My advice is to shamelessly refluff.
For example, if the Prince only ever fights as a Troll, you don't need to stat out a way for a human to turn into a troll. Just have a statblock for the Prince in human for, and the Prince in Troll form.

As for minions, don't feel nailed down by fluff. Pick whatever stats you feel fit what you're looking for, then refluff it as you see fit.

For example, Forest Trolls from MMIII. Medium sized giants, according to the Fluff they're supposed to be savage jungle hunters. You could easily refluff them into a disciplined roman-legion type force. The front ranks fight until wounded, when they are wounded, they step back, another legionary steps forward, and the wounded one sits in the back rank letting his regeneration fix him up.
Or, make up a monster race that fits what you're looking for, "Trollspawn" or something. Find a statblock you like, then wrap the Trollspawn fluff around them.

Fouredged Sword
2010-11-01, 01:06 PM
Trolls as an organised army is a scary thought. They could win just about any battle just by atrition.

There is a PRC that lets you boost your allies str while dealing them damage. Just a though if your allies all regenerate.

true_shinken
2010-11-01, 01:30 PM
Trolls as an organised army is a scary thought. They could win just about any battle just by atrition.

There is a PRC that lets you boost your allies str while dealing them damage. Just a though if your allies all regenerate.

Hm, where can I find that?

Calmar
2010-11-01, 03:51 PM
Wow, nice suggestions. I specially like gargoyles and harpies as shock troops.

Thank you! Have you determined from which area the Troll Prince comes? My assumption is that a troll-themed villain might originate in a marsh/moor/highland/hills-area, hence the corresponding creatures, but that's only my perception.

If he's from a cold region, his forces might be made up like this:


Werewolves, or wereboars as common soldiers. Maybe they are some cursed people, or they are true wolf-men, or boar-men without the ability to assume humanoid-, or animal form.

Trolls of various kinds as heavy warriors. Altogether it probably won't hurt a man who's called the Troll Prince to actually employ these creatures. :smallwink:

Harpies and Gargoyles, as in the "marsh-pattern".

Winter wolves and dire wolves as war beasts; possibly also remorhazes and mammoths (advanced elephants) if you like it that fancy.

Summoned air and ice elementals [modified earth elementals that deal cold damage and function in snow and ice, rather than earth] might fit as well, depending on the degree of the Troll Prince's witchery.


It might be an interesting twist if the Troll Prince actually had human barbarians or bandits in his army, who, unlike the non-human majority of the host, indeed act in a savage and despicable way...

Fouredged Sword
2010-11-01, 04:52 PM
The class is warchief from minitures handbook. It works best with units with low HD, but the damage is less of a problem if your units have regeneration.

true_shinken
2010-11-02, 09:41 AM
Janni or Efreeti might fit the bill, though they'd be a pretty powerful force.

I already have a 'land of janni' in my world, so I'm trying to avoid them... and they are not really monstrous enough for this purposes.


Thank you! Have you determined from which area the Troll Prince comes? My assumption is that a troll-themed villain might originate in a marsh/moor/highland/hills-area, hence the corresponding creatures, but that's only my perception.
Hmm, no, I haven't defined that. But the highland feel seems about right.
I like the idea of lycanthropes, might use them for ground troops/spies.


The class is warchief from minitures handbook. It works best with units with low HD, but the damage is less of a problem if your units have regeneration.
It seems like a perfect fit. Thanks a lot.


These guys?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG141.jpg
They are called grimlocks.
Not surprinsingly, they are monstrous humanoids as well.

Urpriest
2010-11-02, 09:51 AM
Gnolls are monstrous humanoids, not humanoids. ^^
I used them as the main enemies of a specific race, so I don't know if I should use gnolls again. Same with mindflayers.
Umber hulks would definetely work, though.

Just checked, gnolls are humanoids. I've always thought of their shtick as being "the oddest-looking humanoid race", so I was a little surprised when you called them monstrous humanoids.

true_shinken
2010-11-02, 09:54 AM
Just checked, gnolls are humanoids. I've always thought of their shtick as being "the oddest-looking humanoid race", so I was a little surprised when you called them monstrous humanoids.

Oh, you are correct. I could swear they were listed as monstrous humanoids in MM4, but they are not. Oddest-looking indeed.

BRC
2010-11-02, 10:30 AM
Oh, you are correct. I could swear they were listed as monstrous humanoids in MM4, but they are not. Oddest-looking indeed.
Dare I ask why you don't want to use Humanoids for this, but you're okay with using humanoid monsters of different subtypes (like devils)?

Also, somthing that might be interesting would be Ogre Mages. Not as basic footsoldiers, but as special agents and emissaries. An Ogre Mage would take the form of whatever race the Troll Prince wanted to negotiate with (even if it's simply offering terms of surrender), so the people they were negotiating with could better sympathize with them.
If the emissaries are attacked, they can return to their true forms and fight it out, or just turn invisible and fly away. Ogre Mages have a very high Charisma score, so if you shuffle their skills, they could make excellent emissaries. They could also serve as good Officers, commanding the Troll Prince's forces for him, or specialist agents, sent out to run special projects, or investigate things. Maybe have them serve as a sort of Commissariat, acting as political officers. Using networks of informants to ensure loyalty to the Troll Prince.

true_shinken
2010-11-02, 10:41 AM
Dare I ask why you don't want to use Humanoids for this, but you're okay with using humanoid monsters of different subtypes (like devils)?
Humanoids usually don't look monstrous enough. Devils are hideous to behold, with scales, tails, claws, sharp teeth.
The only humanoids I might employ are mongrelfolk and lycanthropes.


Also, somthing that might be interesting would be Ogre Mages. Not as basic footsoldiers, but as special agents and emissaries. An Ogre Mage would take the form of whatever race the Troll Prince wanted to negotiate with (even if it's simply offering terms of surrender), so the people they were negotiating with could better sympathize with them.
They were already mentioned. I might use them, but their stats are kinda weird.
Very good suggestions on ogre mage use, thanks.

Also, for the Troll Prince himself: is there a template that grants a human-like alternate form around?

Boci
2010-11-02, 10:51 AM
Humanoids usually don't look monstrous enough.

You're the DM. Can't you just reflavour them?

Urpriest
2010-11-02, 11:01 AM
You're the DM. Can't you just reflavour them?

I don't understand why these responses keep popping up!

He's not looking for stats. Where in the OP does he say he wants an army with particular stats? NOWHERE!

He's asking for an army that would have a certain general fluff. Telling him to refluff is absolutely ridiculous and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what fluff means. If he's asking for monsters that have a certain fluff, telling him to just go refluff another monster is basically telling him to use any monster whatsoever, which is a useless suggestion. He doesn't have a set idea of what stats the troll prince's army should have, he wants a specific fluff that will give him stats.

That's the whole point of the fluff in D&D: fluff tells you which stats are appropriate and which aren't. If you refluff at-will then nothing tells you which stats to use. Why make your level 1 players fight orcs vs. goblins if they'll both be refluffed to identical sentient trees?

Lev
2010-11-02, 11:02 AM
Is the troll prince related to the goblin king?

http://www.movieforum.com/movies/titles/labyrinth/images/jareth.jpg

BRC
2010-11-02, 11:07 AM
Humanoids usually don't look monstrous enough. Devils are hideous to behold, with scales, tails, claws, sharp teeth.
The only humanoids I might employ are mongrelfolk and lycanthropes.

Hrmm. Fiendish Codex II has a monster called the Legion Devil. A CR3 monster that gets very nasty in groups. They can combine their hit points into a single pool, if abunch of Legion devils are affected by something that requires a saving throw, each one rolls a save, and they all use the best roll among them. If you hit them with a mind affecting spell or ability, all legion devils within 60ft make a roll, if any of them succeed, they all succeed, if any of them fail, they all fail. They gain bonuses on attack rolls for each legion devil within 60ft, and they can teleport next to each other.

However, they're pretty much tailor-made for organized fighting, and if you're going for "Usually savage race that is now honorable and organized", they probably arn't want you want.


Minotaurs make excellent shock troops as has probably been mentioned. Lizardfolk are fairly monstrous, and would work as good frontline infantry. Manticores are intelligent, but definitely monstrous, and between their flight and spines, they would make excellent air troops.

As for the Prince himself, you're the DM. Don't feel held down by anything as simple as "The Rules". The Prince can turn into a trol, this dosn't mean you need to create a rules-legal human who can turn into a troll. Simply stat out his human form, and his troll form. When he faces off against the PC's, say "The prince grins and turns into a troll", and use his troll stats.

Or, just always use his Trollform stats, he just sometimes looks human, and his first action in any combat is to, as a free action, turn into a Troll. This way you can build him as you see him, instead of weighing him down with levels that don't fit your concept, just so he can turn into a troll.

Remember, DnD is balanced around Combat capability. If things won't affect his combat skills, you can do whatever you want with them. If you, for example, stat him as a pure fighter, you can stat him out with Int and Cha as his dump stats, then boost them to whatever you want them to be. Since neither has any effect on his combat abilities, giving him a high Charisma won't make him any harder to beat (Of course, if you make him a Marshal, it's a different story).

true_shinken
2010-11-02, 11:19 AM
I don't understand why these responses keep popping up!

Words of wisdom indeed! Thank you, Urpriest.




Remember, DnD is balanced around Combat capability. If things won't affect his combat skills, you can do whatever you want with them. If you, for example, stat him as a pure fighter, you can stat him out with Int and Cha as his dump stats, then boost them to whatever you want them to be. Since neither has any effect on his combat abilities, giving him a high Charisma won't make him any harder to beat (Of course, if you make him a Marshal, it's a different story).
No, D&D is not balanced only around combat capability. If the troll prince is devious, hard to pinpoint, can escape easily and look like any of the PCs, that's a reason to have a higher CR. CR is not about killing things, it's about surpassing challenges.

Boci
2010-11-02, 11:26 AM
He's asking for an army that would have a certain general fluff.

And I'm saying, "As a DM, can't you just say this army has X fluff"?


That's the whole point of the fluff in D&D: fluff tells you which stats are appropriate and which aren't.

Even then there is a very big leeway. The oni my PCs just faced? Mechanically it was a human / fighter 2 / monk 2.

BRC
2010-11-02, 11:30 AM
Words of wisdom indeed! Thank you, Urpriest.



No, D&D is not balanced only around combat capability. If the troll prince is devious, hard to pinpoint, can escape easily and look like any of the PCs, that's a reason to have a higher CR. CR is not about killing things, it's about surpassing challenges.
Fair enough. A Smart enemy can be far more dangerous than a stupid one, which raises an interesting question. How much do you use your monster's Int scores to dictate their tactics. Obviously, that int 6 orcish barbarian isn't going to do much besides "Charge and scream". But what about Int 10 or 12 enemies. Would you say "No, they wouldn't lock down the fighter with a Tanglefoot bag, that's an Int 14 strategy"?

Urpriest
2010-11-02, 11:33 AM
And I'm saying, "As a DM, can't you just say this army has X fluff"?

Think for a moment and apply this to the OP:

DM: You see an army before you. Though you might think at first that they would be savage brutes, they are actually decent, honorable troops, albeit of evil intent.
Players: Ok, cool. So what do they look like?

The whole point of the thread is to answer that question. Your answer is entirely beside the point, and I'm having a lot of trouble understanding why you think it's an appropriate response.


Even then there is a very big leeway. The oni my PCs just faced? Mechanically it was a human / fighter 2 / monk 2.

"Oni" is rather more specific than "savage but honorable". Do you understand the difference?

Boci
2010-11-02, 11:40 AM
Think for a moment and apply this to the OP:

DM: You see an army before you. Though you might think at first that they would be savage brutes, they are actually decent, honorable troops, albeit of evil intent.
Players: Ok, cool. So what do they look like?

However TS wants them to. They can flick through the MMs and just choose a picture they feel is apropriate. Or google "monsters" and see what images pop up.

true_shinken
2010-11-02, 11:42 AM
However TS wants them to. They can flick through the MMs and just choose a picture they feel is apropriate. Or google "monsters" and see what images pop up.

...or I could, ya know, ask the playground for suggestions. What's the difference, really? Is it wrong for me not to refluff monsters or engage in building characters when I can simply use them out of the Monster Manual? It's a lot simpler to use the stats and fluff as published than to create new ones. :smallconfused:

Boci
2010-11-02, 11:45 AM
...or I could, ya know, ask the playground for suggestions. What's the difference, really? Is it wrong for me not to refluff monsters or engage in building characters when I can simply use them out of the Monster Manual? It's a lot simpler to use the stats and fluff as published than to create new ones. :smallconfused:

I don't see why you're excluding humanoids for not being monstrous enough. You're the DM, if you want them to be monstrous, they are.

BRC
2010-11-02, 12:11 PM
I don't see why you're excluding humanoids for not being monstrous enough. You're the DM, if you want them to be monstrous, they are.
He could, but that dosn't mean he's wrong for not doing so.
I think he might also be looking for something "Monstrous" beyond simple appearance. Hobgoblins look weird, but they're essentially humans, fighting with human weapons and armor, using human tactics, ect. Hobgoblins, Orcs, Bugbears, Lizardfolk, all are pretty much just Humans in a costume.

I think he may be looking for something both visually and mechanically monstrous, something that rends it's enemies with claws, or shoots fire out of it's eyeballs, or can leap twenty feat onto an enemy's back.

Yeah, I think I see what you're looking for here, you don't just want "Monstrous" things, you want actual Monsters.

Edit: Maybe not quite what your looking for, but the "Spellwarped Creature" template from MMIII is a good way to Monster-up otherwise boring enemies. However, it basically just makes them stronger/tougher unless people use magic on them.

Boci
2010-11-02, 12:19 PM
He could, but that dosn't mean he's wrong for not doing so.
I think he might also be looking for something "Monstrous" beyond simple appearance. Hobgoblins look weird, but they're essentially humans, fighting with human weapons and armor, using human tactics, ect. Hobgoblins, Orcs, Bugbears, Lizardfolk, all are pretty much just Humans in a costume.

I think he may be looking for something both visually and mechanically monstrous, something that rends it's enemies with claws, or shoots fire out of it's eyeballs, or can leap twenty feat onto an enemy's back.

Yeah, I think I see what you're looking for here, you don't just want "Monstrous" things, you want actual Monsters.

Edit: Maybe not quite what your looking for, but the "Spellwarped Creature" template from MMIII is a good way to Monster-up otherwise boring enemies. However, it basically just makes them stronger/tougher unless people use magic on them.

That fair enough, and if he'd said devils were good because they had spell like abilities, DR and sometimes regeneration I would't have said anything. But he said "Devils are hideous to behold, with scales, tails, claws, sharp teeth", so I figured I'd asked and inadvertantly struck a nerve.

true_shinken
2010-11-02, 08:07 PM
He could, but that dosn't mean he's wrong for not doing so.
I think he might also be looking for something "Monstrous" beyond simple appearance. Hobgoblins look weird, but they're essentially humans, fighting with human weapons and armor, using human tactics, ect. Hobgoblins, Orcs, Bugbears, Lizardfolk, all are pretty much just Humans in a costume.

I think he may be looking for something both visually and mechanically monstrous, something that rends it's enemies with claws, or shoots fire out of it's eyeballs, or can leap twenty feat onto an enemy's back.

Yeah, I think I see what you're looking for here, you don't just want "Monstrous" things, you want actual Monsters.

Edit: Maybe not quite what your looking for, but the "Spellwarped Creature" template from MMIII is a good way to Monster-up otherwise boring enemies. However, it basically just makes them stronger/tougher unless people use magic on them.

That's basically it, thanks.
Spellwarped creature is nice. Templates in general could be of great use for this concept.


That fair enough, and if he'd said devils were good because they had spell like abilities, DR and sometimes regeneration I would't have said anything. But he said "Devils are hideous to behold, with scales, tails, claws, sharp teeth", so I figured I'd asked and inadvertantly struck a nerve.
"Struck a nerve"? Why would I care whatever you think? I'm not a fan of pointless refluffing, that's all. Why should I go to the trouble of refluffing something when I can just open a book and get what I want?

Boci
2010-11-02, 08:15 PM
"Struck a nerve"? Why would I care whatever you think? I'm not a fan of pointless refluffing, that's all. Why should I go to the trouble of refluffing something when I can just open a book and get what I want?

Because it would open up the opertunity to use regular humanoids and increase the number of options available to you. But you clearly don't want to so never mind. I was just interested, that why I asked. And as for struck a nerve, I just felt I got some undue hostility for my question. Maybe I was wrong.

true_shinken
2010-11-02, 08:21 PM
Because it would open up the opertunity to use regular humanoids and increase the number of options available to you. But you clearly don't want to so never mind. I was just interested, that why I asked. And as for struck a nerve, I just felt I got some undue hostility for my question. Maybe I was wrong.

I'm sorry if I did something you perceived as hostile, as it was not my intention. I actually pretty much enjoy most of your posts and take most of your suggestions with great consideration. It's just that you can't always agree with everyone, I guess.
Again, I'm sorry if I came up as rude. English is not my native language so at times my limited vocabulary might be misleading. My apologies.