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crazywolf
2010-10-31, 05:18 AM
ok, so the party learned that caravans are being attacked and apon further inspection they learn that it is the work of goblins. now the group finds and ambushes a few goblins and find a young child who was in one of the caravans that was attacked. now, after more traveling the group finds a lone goblin and capture him. The Paladin specks goblin and tells him to tell were their camp is, the goblin refuses so they proced to chop his toes and fingers off until he proves to be useles and the barbarion chops off, and collects his head. Now the group told the paladin to check on the child before they tortured the goblin, but the player still knew they were going to torture him.
So my question is , would the paladin fall??
hes level 1 so think i would let this one slide
and hes chotic good if that helps him.

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-31, 05:22 AM
Did the Paladin know? OOC and IC knowledge are distinct.

If he finds out after the fact, he might feel guilty, but he won't Fall because he didn't know.

Being Chaotic Good doesn't mean you condone torture. In fact, a Chaotic Good Paladin would probably be more horrified. (Not that a Lawful Good Paladin wouldn't.)

BobVosh
2010-10-31, 05:25 AM
Did the paladin know, and if so who does he worship? How does said deity look upon torture? Is the knowledge that they try to extract important enough that the deity would agree?

If the pally doesn't know then stop there, he doesn't fall. If he did know, the other questions should help you determine if he should fall.

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-31, 05:27 AM
Did the paladin know, and if so who does he worship?

Stop.

Unless you're playing Forgotten Realms, the god a Paladin worships doesn't make a bit of difference. The only thing that matters is the Paladin's code. And if he does a single Evil act, he falls. No questions asked.

Even if he's a Paladin of St. Cuthbert (who is Lawful Neutral).

Paladins gain their power from Goodness itself, and their convictions, not from some deity they may or may not revere.

Yora
2010-10-31, 05:34 AM
However, if the party consists of people who torture prisoners to death, the paladin player should probably make a new character.

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 05:35 AM
YES!

Sorry, knee-jerk reaction.

3.5 or 4e?

3.5, assuming he unequivocally knew that they were going to torture the goblin, I'd say yes. Even the 3.5 Paladin of Freedom (CG) would be horrified at this thoroughly non-good act.

4e it all depends on the deity.

Renegade Paladin
2010-10-31, 05:38 AM
Yes, he falls. Because the rules for the non-paladin of freedom are self-contradictory, and require him to be both chaotic good and lawful good simultaneously. :smalltongue:

crazywolf
2010-10-31, 05:41 AM
However, if the party consists of people who torture prisoners to death, the paladin player should probably make a new character.

Yeah, the pally was a last minute player and i dont think he knew that the others were doing that (but he did discover the body)
hes a paladin of..... darn cant remember his name right now

but he is a paladin of the elf god (even thogh he is a human but he wants to be an elf)

but anyway they did find more goblins and tortured them the paladin did "interagate" one of them, but didnt torture him he just told him he would give him to the barbarion if he couldnt get the information.

crazywolf
2010-10-31, 05:43 AM
Yes, he falls. Because the rules for the non-paladin of freedom are self-contradictory, and require him to be both chaotic good and lawful good simultaneously. :smalltongue:

but hes not a paladin of freedom
hes a different case he worships the elf god even though he is a human but he was raised by elfs and he wants to be one

*edit* this is a 3.5 game, yes
i figure lawful good only paladins were stupid so i changed it to any good

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 05:45 AM
but hes not a paladin of freedom
hes a different case he worships the elf god even though he is a human but he was raised by elfs and he wants to be one

I'm going to assume 3.5?

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-31, 05:46 AM
If he's Chaotic Good, and a Paladin, he's a Paladin of Freedom.

A normal Paladin who happens to be an elf is still Lawful Good. Even if he worships a Chaotic Good deity. A Paladin can worship whoever he damn well please, as he doesn't get his powers from his deity!

Although if he threatened to hand the goblin over to the Barbarian and knew he'd be tortured, yeah, his ass is falling.


I'm going to assume 3.5?

He keeps saying Chaotic Good.

Duh?

Renegade Paladin
2010-10-31, 05:47 AM
Ah. In that case it's more straightforward; he falls for not being lawful good, as a paladin is required to be, being a paragon of chivalry and all that.

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 05:48 AM
He keeps saying Chaotic Good.

Duh?

Sorry. I still use the 9-point alignment system in 4e.

crazywolf
2010-10-31, 05:49 AM
Although if he threatened to hand the goblin over to the Barbarian and knew he'd be tortured, yeah, his ass is falling.


acually the goblin didnt tell them anything so the barbarion choped his head off

ZeroNumerous
2010-10-31, 05:50 AM
*edit* this is a 3.5 game, yes
i figure lawful good only paladins were stupid so i changed it to any good

Why are people saying he has to be LG/A paladin of freedom when the OP clearly states there's a houserule in effect?

crazywolf
2010-10-31, 05:51 AM
Now he didnt acually torture anyone
(although he did smash some goblins with his greatsword)
so what than?

crazywolf
2010-10-31, 05:53 AM
Why are people saying he has to be LG/A paladin of freedom when the OP clearly states there's a houserule in effect?

Thanks i've been trying to say that the whole time
i dont like Lawful only paladins so i made the house rule

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 05:55 AM
I'm still going with, "If he knew, he falls."

Cue alien rant:
"PALADINS DON'T WORK THAT WAY!"
http://i372.photobucket.com/albums/oo161/atp88/morbo.jpg

JBento
2010-10-31, 06:12 AM
This day of the week already? Oh well, here we go:

Nitpick: if it's 4E, the Paladin doesn't fall regardless of god, because 4E paladins can't fall (unless they fail their Acrobatics check).

As Yuki pointed out, in 3.5 god doesn't matter (barring houserules or Retarded Realms).

If the paladin even SUSPECTED the torture was going to happen, he falls, and the cobblestones are now cracked.

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 06:18 AM
This day of the week already? Oh well, here we go:


It is Alignment Sunday. I think falling paladins qualifies for an alignment thread.

REMINDER: Tomorrow is Monkday! :smalltongue:

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-31, 07:35 AM
If he knew, his code of conduct is violated, but IMO not so grossly that he immediately falls. Failing to correct his fellow adventurers is a further violation, one whose severity is mounting with time. On top of the first one, he's heading right for a fall unless he makes it very clear to his associates what should be done about torture.

Kastanok
2010-10-31, 07:41 AM
I would say Falls unless he can somehow justify his in-action to himself in the name of the Greater Good and even then he's on the real knife's edge. It can never happen again and, preferably, the Paladin some make some effort to atone for letting a sentient be tortured.

Could make for interesting inter-party drama if the Paladin goes against his comrades if they try it again. I don't mean actually fight them, more like make it very clear what the consequences would be.

Calmar
2010-10-31, 07:49 AM
A normal Paladin who happens to be an elf is still Lawful Good. Even if he worships a Chaotic Good deity. A Paladin can worship whoever he damn well please, as he doesn't get his powers from his deity!

"Who's that kind man over there?"
-"It's good Sir Tharaxos, paladin of Graz'z.
":smallconfused:"

I wonder how playing the rules is more fun than playing the game. Besides, while a paladin in a game where a divine caster isn't required to have a patron deity might get his spells out of pure goodness, he still has to follow the one-step rule for alignment, if worship is required.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-31, 07:56 AM
I wonder how playing the rules is more fun than playing the game.
I also wonder at that. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll continue to play my warrior of justice and virtue, speaking out against Heironeous, lord of sycophants and hypocrites, while championing the more moderate aspects of Hextorian theology, which have guided the kingdom and its people to prosperity for generations.

Cerlis
2010-10-31, 07:57 AM
Since you houseruled the alignment of paladins I take it your heart is into making the game more fun and fluid. Not grossely, but like you dont want to enforce a rule if that just makes the gamers unhappy.

I'd say you have two major options
If the Paladin player wants to play a Bastion of good in this world AAAAND YOU THINK THE PARTY MIGHT BE WILLING TO NEGOTIATE TERMS; Tell him he feels the light in him diminishing. Dont make him fall black and white. As he falls from goodness he feels less blessed, If he keeps it up he STARTS loosing abilities (First he loses his power to punish evil doers (smite) since his judgment is wrong, keeps it up he loses his blessings (Cha to saves) even more and the Light wont come to his beck and call (lay on hands)). This is assuming he levels enough to get those. BUT you shouldnt enforce the paladin falling system If the party goes straight for the torture thing. If the players discussed their options and tortured the goblin cus it was their only option (other than getting ambushed and dying) that is Evil based on logic. They could be talked out of it. If they seem Kick in the Door style or "Classic adventuring party that only cares about themselves" then Forcing a player to go at odds with his teammates will just end in frustration

If this is the case, just wave the paladin falling rule, if you want you can play it as "Paladin is a great bastion of a cause". he might slowly start turning evil or corrupt. Let him smite what he wants, and play with the players. He's like a fighter or barbarian but his powers come from faith and devotion rather than rage or knowledge

Yuki Akuma
2010-10-31, 08:05 AM
"Who's that kind man over there?"
-"It's good Sir Tharaxos, paladin of Graz'z.
":smallconfused:"

I wonder how playing the rules is more fun than playing the game. Besides, while a paladin in a game where a divine caster isn't required to have a patron deity might get his spells out of pure goodness, he still has to follow the one-step rule for alignment, if worship is required.

It says nowhere in the Paladin class description that he must worship a deity, or that he must be within one step of their alignment if he does. He worships deities like any non-Cleric does.

Of course he's not going to worship an Evil deity - he's a Paladin! But he can worship a Neutral one, or a Chaotic Good one.

BridgeCity
2010-10-31, 08:46 AM
I feel it comes back to one very simple question (that I'm not sure if you answered, I looked but didn't see an answer).

Did the Paladin, not the player, but the actual character the Paladin, know his comrades were deliberately luring him away so that they could torture the goblin, or did he believe they honestly just wanted him to check on the child and was shocked to find that when he got back they had tortured the dude?

If the paladin had no knowledge that the event was going to happen, he doesn't fall. If he knew what they were up to and went along with it, he falls.

The distinction between what the character knew and what the player knew needs to be made.

Quietus
2010-10-31, 09:11 AM
I also wonder at that. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'll continue to play my warrior of justice and virtue, speaking out against Heironeous, lord of sycophants and hypocrites, while championing the more moderate aspects of Hextorian theology, which have guided the kingdom and its people to prosperity for generations.

Hah. I have a society in my homebrewed world like this.. the biggest city in the setting, used to be ruled over by a particularly nasty dragon, the forces of Good-aligned deities couldn't overcome her.. so my Hextor equivalent stepped in, crushed a few skulls that the forces of Good weren't willing to do, and got the job done. It was a bit messier than some might like, and their methods were.. not very nice. But he got the job done.

The city's become a bit more moderate over the last couple years, but it's certainly not a bastion of good, necessarily.

jpreem
2010-10-31, 09:54 AM
1 level? I'd say give him a free feat and tell him that he is a fighter from now on.

Lord Bingo
2010-10-31, 10:19 AM
The Paladin falls!

In the first case the player metagamed so that his character would not be present when the other characters tortured and killed the gobbo. It is clearly stated that in a later encounter the paladin interrogated a gobbo and then turned a it over to the half-orc knowing full well what was going to happen and even making threats to that effect.

If I was the DM I would talk to my characters about metagaming and I would then show a little lenience and instruct the player of the paladin that he was now a fighter and that he should change his alignment to Chaotic neutral to better reflect his moral standpoint.

Regarding the requirement of a paladin to be lawful and your thinking it is stupid, I fear that might be because you misunderstand the intention of the alignment. Lawful characters keep their word, respect legitimate authority, etc. IMO a paladin that is not trustworthy and respectful is not worth the paper he is written upon. He/she gains so many boon that there has to be a price to pay.

Greenish
2010-10-31, 10:22 AM
IMO a paladin that is not trustworthy and respectful is not worth the paper he is written upon. He/she gains so many boon that there has to be a price to pay.:smallamused:

WarKitty
2010-10-31, 10:30 AM
Is it that time of the week again?

Comes down to did the paladin know that they were going to torture the goblin?

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 10:41 AM
Is it that time of the week again?


It is Alignment Sunday. I think falling paladins qualifies for an alignment thread.

REMINDER: Tomorrow is Monkday! :smalltongue:

Sorry, WK. We already went over that. :smallwink:

WarKitty
2010-10-31, 10:43 AM
Sorry, PBC* error.

*Posting Before Coffee.

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 10:45 AM
Don't forget, tomorrow is Monkday (Monk Monday). I'm sure I can come up with a rant to get the monk debate raging. :smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2010-10-31, 10:47 AM
My life* is hard enough as it is, guys.:smallcool:



*Okay, Joe/Mark/Vaynor too.:smallwink:

Starbuck_II
2010-10-31, 10:51 AM
4.0: No fall, you can't. You have to achieve godhood to fall in 4.0.

3.5: Depends how how much IC the Pally knew.

Eloel
2010-10-31, 10:55 AM
Will the paladin fall?
Yes. Eventually. The event in hand has been explained by everyone, so not going to touch that.

Murdim
2010-10-31, 10:56 AM
If the paladin knows that his teammates are committing vile acts behind his back, then he's in a situation where he's knowingly and willingly associating with evil characters that egregiously offend his moral code. I don't think he should fall immediately, but this his clearly a situation where he has to choose between his current party and his moral standards (and therefore, his paladinhood). He might or might not try to confront his companions on their wickedness rather than leaving them on the spot, might or might not decide to oppose them afterwards, and might or might not do so in a direct, armed way. The paladin's reaction does not have to be of the Lawful Stupid kind - especially if he's Chaotic Good - as long as he does get out of this intolerable situation.

If he doesn't know, then he's safe and can't be blamed for his party's evil... until their next display of heroic sociopathy, anyway.

Susano-wo
2010-10-31, 11:39 AM
I'm assuming all the Paladin code bits that don't pertain to Lawfulness are still in effect.

So yeah, did the Paladin reeealy not know?
(I could go either way on the metagaming--on the one hand, metagaming so you never have to suffer penalties/be forced to make a tough decision is lame, but balancing character integrity with wanting things not to grind down to PVPorama if the game is supposed to be party based is also admirable...though I'm leaning toward the former in this case:smallannoyed:)

If so thats a pretty gross act of evil, so yeah, he falls. Hell, you know what? he saw the body afterwards. he knows the tortured him/her, so he has a duty to address that. Maybe not auto fall, but he's on the edge there.
Then the issue with threatening to hand him over to the barbarian--I am understanding that he did hand him over? if so, yeah, fall. He knows whats going to happen--that's the same as doing it.

But I agree that paragon of good might not fit in with this party. (which is why its important to discuss party dynamics when bringing new characters in ^ ^)

Starbuck_II
2010-10-31, 11:44 AM
Question: Did torture even work?
Because if lethal torture isn't giving the part information: it isn't working stop doing it.

Mental torture works better (watch Burn Notice for that). Seems to work better. Let them think you are going to do worse.

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 11:49 AM
Mental torture works better (watch Burn Notice for that). Seems to work better. Let them think you are going to do worse.

Or the scene in The Punisher with the acetylene torch, the steak and the popsicle. :smallbiggrin:

tcrudisi
2010-10-31, 12:12 PM
Stop.

Hammer time!


4e it all depends on the deity.

In 4e, a Paladin cannot fall. Period. The Paladin can be any alignment and act against that alignment. It doesn't matter. There are no rules concerning a Paladin falling and even attempting to house-rule some in would be extremely difficult considering how the system works.


I still use the 9-point alignment system in 4e.

Sure, but the default on the forum is to go with the real rules, not house rules, unless the OP has specified otherwise.


Comes down to did the paladin know that they were going to torture the goblin?

I agree with this.

However, the Paladin isn't exactly an amazing class. Even if he technically knew, I'd just tell the player that he's not abiding by the code of conduct for a Paladin. If he wishes to keep playing a Paladin, he needs to start acting more like one. If the paladin code is too much, he can switch characters. Because really, very few people want to play a fallen Paladin (some people might for RP purposes, but they are in the minority).

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 12:17 PM
Sure, but the default on the forum is to go with the real rules, not house rules, unless the OP has specified otherwise.

Yeah, I just meant that I forget sometimes that they changed it to some wacky LG-G-U-E-CE crap.

Aidan305
2010-10-31, 12:21 PM
It's at times like this that I remember an important phrase:

"My, what interesting, yet rustic architecture. I think I will go and examine it more closely"

A paladin cannot stop every evil act in the world. They can, however, work to prevent future occurances. Yes they know about the act, but that doesn't mean they approve of it.

Paladin's are tricky, both to play and to adjudicate, but as long as the paladin's not actively getting involved in the torture and is remorseful about it happening, then I see no reason why he should fall.

Greenish
2010-10-31, 12:28 PM
Yeah, I just meant that I forget sometimes that they changed it to some wacky LG-G-U-E-CE crap.Or that paladins can't fall.

FoE
2010-10-31, 12:31 PM
Hold on, why was this torture even necessary? Why didn't the PCs just roll an Intimidate check?

Murdim
2010-10-31, 12:38 PM
Hold on, why was this torture even necessary? Why didn't the PCs just roll an Intimidate check?
Yet another reason for any paragon of Goodness sane character not to hang out with those guys.

Really, the best solution for the Paladin player is to retire his current character, maybe keep it for later use, and create another one which meets the party's standards of Chaotic Stupid / Stupid Evil.

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 12:43 PM
Or that paladins can't fall.

Meh. I find that being "punished by other members of the faithful" equivalent to falling. Especially when you commit a transgression that carries a death sentence.

Callista
2010-10-31, 01:33 PM
Player knowledge vs. character knowledge. Since they sent him off before they started with the torture, the character probably doesn't know (did he get a Spot/Listen to find out? He should've.) So not a problem there.

However, your group does have a problem, and it's more long-term than one incident. You've got people in the group who are evidently evil and not seeking redemption, and someone's insisted on playing a paladin anyway. The second the guy turns his Detect Evil on, he's going to find out that some of his party members are NOT the kind he wants to travel with.

I don't see anyone else speaking up against the torture, or having it hidden from them; so I can only guess that not only is this the only paladin in the group; he's the only Good character, period. Here's my advice, on the assumption that the evil and neutral characters outnumber the good ones: The paladin's player needs to retire his character--save it for a Good campaign and roll up a character who will actually have a reason to travel with these people. Paladins and Good clerics don't belong in Evil campaigns, and I don't know what he was thinking trying it.

Alternatively, he can get together with the other players and talk about what might happen once he finds out that he's traveling with one or more people who are monstrous enough to turn to torture. Now, he's in the minority; so he can't win this one. There are a lot of options, though: He might try to arrest one or more PCs, if they've broken a law; if he succeeds, jailbreaks are often fun (but the DM should make sure that the incident doesn't reduce their party wealth below what it should be). He might leave peacefully, with or without telling the others. He might try to take away the Neutrals with him, leaving the evil characters behind. Or he might try to fight--and either be killed, or have his friends refuse to kill him because, despite being evil, they are his friends and would much rather just part ways than see him die.

But you need to solve this one somehow, and it's best done with a bit of planning rather than on the fly, because if you just spring it on him, he won't have a backup character and will have to sit out until he can make a new one, which is boring and annoying and gets people angry at each other in real life. You don't want to do that over a game, right? OK, thought not...

super dark33
2010-10-31, 02:43 PM
first: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CHAOTIC PALADIN.
second: hes level one, forgive im. i played a paladin that tortured people so theyll convert, THATS acting relligious!

Eloel
2010-10-31, 02:48 PM
first: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CHAOTIC PALADIN.

Yes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures), there is (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofSlaughterClas sFeatures).

Greenish
2010-10-31, 02:49 PM
first: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CHAOTIC PALADIN.Except the UA variant, the Dragon Mag variants and houserules.
i played a paladin that tortured people so theyll convert, THATS acting relligious!But it's not Good.

super dark33
2010-10-31, 03:14 PM
But it's not Good.

i suggest you that a master cleric will judge the paladin, and if hes guilty, he will take his pala-powers away, thats what i used which means he can torture and murder unless the 'church' sees him do so

The Glyphstone
2010-10-31, 03:19 PM
i suggest you that a master cleric will judge the paladin, and if hes guilty, he will take his pala-powers away, thats what i used which means he can torture and murder unless the 'church' sees him do so

But that's not how paladins work. They're not beholden to a church, they're beholden directly to their respective deity, and if the deity doesn't approve of his actions, welcome to Fallsville. A double-sided coin really...they don't have to listen to corrupt/evil church officials who tell them to do bad things, but at the same time, hiding evil actions from the church does no good because the deity can still see it fine. If you managed to RL Bluff/Diplomacy your DM into letting you go with it, that's well and fine, but you were absolutely playing a Paladin of Tyranny, or even a Paladin of Slaughter (that's the LE/CE Paladin variants from UA).

Starbuck_II
2010-10-31, 03:27 PM
But that's not how paladins work. They're not beholden to a church, they're beholden directly to their respective deity, and if the deity doesn't approve of his actions, welcome to Fallsville. A double-sided coin really...they don't have to listen to corrupt/evil church officials who tell them to do bad things, but at the same time, hiding evil actions from the church does no good because the deity can still see it fine. If you managed to RL Bluff/Diplomacy your DM into letting you go with it, that's well and fine, but you were absolutely playing a Paladin of Tyranny, or even a Paladin of Slaughter (that's the LE/CE Paladin variants from UA).

No, Pallys aren't beholden to a church in 3.5 or a diety.
In 4.0, they can't fall: once you do the ritual you are forever more a paladin.

Other pallys might not like you and try to hurt you, but you don't fall.

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-31, 03:27 PM
But that's not how paladins work. They're not beholden to a church, they're beholden directly to their respective deity, and if the deity doesn't approve of his actions, welcome to Fallsville. A double-sided coin really...they don't have to listen to corrupt/evil church officials who tell them to do bad things, but at the same time, hiding evil actions from the church does no good because the deity can still see it fine. If you managed to RL Bluff/Diplomacy your DM into letting you go with it, that's well and fine, but you were absolutely playing a Paladin of Tyranny, or even a Paladin of Slaughter (that's the LE/CE Paladin variants from UA).

Still wrong. Paladins are beholden to NOTHING except the Code itself. Gods. Are. Optional.

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 03:33 PM
Still wrong. Paladins are beholden to NOTHING except the Code itself. Gods. Are. Optional.

Only in 3.5/3.0.

Giggling Ghast
2010-10-31, 03:36 PM
As the DM, I would seriously consider changing the entire party's alignment to Evil for perpetrating such an act.

Starbuck_II
2010-10-31, 03:51 PM
True, the rest of party seems evil.

MickJay
2010-10-31, 04:15 PM
For such a party to actually work, some metagaming is necessary. The paladin should get some of a check (spot/listen) to determine whether he notices what's going on, and if he succeeds, he has to make a difficult choice. If he fails, he remains blissfully unaware of what his party members had done, and nothing happens (unless he realizes after the fact what had occurred - in which case, again, he would have to decide what to do next). It's one of those situations where the IC/OOC knowledge distinction becomes really important, and mild metagaming should be allowed.

The Glyphstone
2010-10-31, 04:16 PM
Still wrong. Paladins are beholden to NOTHING except the Code itself. Gods. Are. Optional.

Outside of Forgotten Realms, point conceded. But even then - the Code itself definitely doesn't allow for torture, though D&D's definition of "murder" is extremely fuzzy. So let's revise my existing statement:



But that's not how paladins work. They're not beholden to a church, they're beholden directly to their code, and if the code doesn't approve of his actions, welcome to Fallsville. A double-sided coin really...they don't have to listen to corrupt/evil church officials who tell them to do bad things, but at the same time, hiding evil actions from the church does no good because the code can still see it fine. If you managed to RL Bluff/Diplomacy your DM into letting you go with it, that's well and fine, but you were absolutely playing a Paladin of Tyranny, or even a Paladin of Slaughter (that's the LE/CE Paladin variants from UA).

Lord_Gareth
2010-10-31, 04:20 PM
My apologies for the nitpicking, but SO MANY PEOPLE forget that the fun and beauty of the paladin is in the fact that they are beholden to nothing but their own standards of righteousness (since there is no fun or beauty whatsoever in their crunch). A paladin has power because they are THAT dedicated to their code of conduct and honor; anything less is a fighter with high-minded ideals.

Callista
2010-10-31, 04:22 PM
As the DM, I would seriously consider changing the entire party's alignment to Evil for perpetrating such an act.The players themselves should already have done so. Changing a PC's alignment isn't a punitive act; it's something that reflects character development, similar to the way you would change his hair color on the character sheet if you decided he was going to dye it. And these characters, if they aren't evil now, soon will be, since they're the kind of people who will resort to torturing an enemy without being at all repentant.


For such a party to actually work, some metagaming is necessary. The paladin should get some of a check (spot/listen) to determine whether he notices what's going on, and if he succeeds, he has to make a difficult choice. If he fails, he remains blissfully unaware of what his party members had done, and nothing happens (unless he realizes after the fact what had occurred - in which case, again, he would have to decide what to do next). It's one of those situations where the IC/OOC knowledge distinction becomes really important, and mild metagaming should be allowed. This isn't going to work; sooner or later he'll cast Detect Evil--and probably sooner; it's a great tactical tool to detect whether there are evil-aligned people on the other side of a door--and his companions will show up on his radar. The choice isn't something that can be avoided; it's inevitable unless his companions are all going around with Undetectable Alignment up pretty much 24/7. And it still remains why THEY would want to travel with him--they wouldn't want him putting a crimp in their plans any more than he'd want them hanging out with him. This party is just plain incompatible.

hamishspence
2010-10-31, 04:33 PM
Outside of Forgotten Realms, point conceded. But even then - the Code itself definitely doesn't allow for torture, though D&D's definition of "murder" is extremely fuzzy.

This can be a little tricky if it is restricted to the SRD, since there's no outright "torture is an evil act" there- only in the splatbooks.

Certainly cases can be made for:

"an act of torture shows a lack of concern for the dignity of sentient beings- therefore it is an evil act"

or

"an act or torture shows lack of respect for life, therefore it is an evil act"

or

"an act of torture debases the victim/debases the person doing it, therefore it is an evil act, even if it's not "debasing the innocent"

but to prove it evil, may require the splatbooks.

There is also PHB: "paladins... and punish those who harm or threaten innocents"

which may imply that whether or not the act is evil, the paladin must at least try and punish the beings responsible, or be in danger of Falling for a possible gross violation of the Code- if the victim qualifies as one of "innocents".

As to "letting it happen", or "handing someone over knowing they will be tortured", again, there is an element of splatbooks that may be needed to prove this act an evil deed- BoED calls out "handing someone over knowing they will be tortured" an evil deed.

This is one reason why I consider the splatbooks useful- because sometimes they give answers to this sort of thing, whereas the PHB/SRD can be much more open to interpretation.

WinceRind
2010-10-31, 04:57 PM
Non-lawful paladin doesn't make much sense to me.

But I guess it's your house rules, I can't really complain about it.

I mean, paladins are paragons of justice above all - and that pretty much means being trustworthy and lawful.

If you further edit the paladin class and rename it "Zealot" or something like that, it might fit you better. Instead of upholding truth and justice and things like that, they could just be REALLY devoted to some other cause- and they could discriminate and do non-paladin acts more freely.

I'm not a big fan of the classic paladin class either...

Callista
2010-10-31, 05:03 PM
Paladin in the classic sense, no; but think of it as a synonym for "champion" (especially "champion of a cause") and you can get CG paladins easily. These are basically the people who work against oppressive tyranny, slavery, and probably things like mind control and creation of undead (the point of creating them is to control them, most of the time). I've always thought that Paladins of Freedom should get more tactical abilities and not so much heavy-armor stuff; chaotics like to stay flexible and if you're one person trying to take down a tyrannical dictator, you'll have to become a guerilla type fighter anyway. But, yeah, CGs would hate torture even more than LG people do--not only are you hurting someone; you're trying to take away their free will to refuse to tell you whatever you want to know. That might be abhorrent to LG paladins, but for the CG people it's even worse--it's against everything they believe in, on both axes.

Lord Bingo
2010-10-31, 05:40 PM
My apologies for the nitpicking, but SO MANY PEOPLE forget that the fun and beauty of the paladin is in the fact that they are beholden to nothing but their own standards of righteousness (since there is no fun or beauty whatsoever in their crunch). A paladin has power because they are THAT dedicated to their code of conduct and honor; anything less is a fighter with high-minded ideals.

In a sense this is true but I think it misses an important point. In the case of D&D "their own standards of righteousness" are dictated by the rules of the game which include a fixed "objective" definition of good and evil. This means that in this case the Paladins standard of righteousness is exactly what the "lawful good" entry states it is. That is why it can be tricky to play a paladin in the first place.

hamishspence
2010-10-31, 05:40 PM
Code of Conduct
A paladin of freedom must be of chaotic good alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin of freedom's code requires that he respect individual liberty, help those in need (provided they do not use the help for lawful or evil ends), and punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty.

So- whether or not torture is an evil act in your game- if it qualifies as "an act of disrespect for individual liberty" and/or "an act that threatens or curtails personal liberty"

then it may be the case that it is both an act against the paladin of freedom's code, and an act that the paladin of freedom is obliged to punish.

crazywolf
2010-10-31, 06:44 PM
Is it that time of the week again?

Comes down to did the paladin know that they were going to torture the goblin?


no he didnt
and after he interigated one of them he figured that barbarion would be better
(he didnt count on 9 charisma and a greataxe though)

crazywolf
2010-10-31, 06:50 PM
It's at times like this that I remember an important phrase:

"My, what interesting, yet rustic architecture. I think I will go and examine it more closely"



best line ever haha

crazywolf
2010-10-31, 06:51 PM
Hold on, why was this torture even necessary? Why didn't the PCs just roll an Intimidate check?

they did but they sucked horibly ( mostly 3-6's)

MickJay
2010-10-31, 06:59 PM
@Callista
that's assuming that the party actually IS Evil, not just Neutral with occasional Evil thing going on. In the long run, having a Paladin in the same party with Evil folks is impossible, and a conflict is inevitable (which could lead to either a catastrophe, or a really good and memorable session, depending on the maturity of players and the way the conflict is resolved).

@Wincerind
The concept of a Paladin of Freedom self-contradictory - this Paladin, while loving freedom, is bound by a strict code that tells him to value freedom above all else; his code forces him to punish wrongdoers for offenses against freedom, and by punishing them, he curtails their own freedom (to, you know, further the cause of freedom).
Paradoxically, a "standard" Paladin has more freedom to act, since his priority is to serve Good, as the Lawfulness - in fact - can be limited to obeying the Code and nothing else, as long as its for the cause of Good (which, in itself, places high value on personal liberty, but understands that, unfortunately, it has to be sometimes limited); a Paladin of Freedom has also to keep in mind the Freedom bit, which limits his actions even further.

crazywolf
2010-10-31, 07:00 PM
ok i'll clear the alinment of the group

the pally : choatic good
the barbarion; neutral ( he hates goblinoids more than most)
the cleric: evil but she dosent harm children and will protect them (due to her god)
the sorceror: evil & likes frying stuff and messing with the goblins

they are torturing the goblins to find out were their cave is and to find out were the little girl (who they took) is.
so their trying to help a lost child

hamishspence
2010-10-31, 07:04 PM
@Wincerind
The concept of a Paladin of Freedom self-contradictory - this Paladin, while loving freedom, is bound by a strict code that tells him to value freedom above all else; his code forces him to punish wrongdoers for offenses against freedom, and by punishing them, he curtails their own freedom (to, you know, further the cause of freedom).

"Respect individual liberty" and "Punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty" are not necessarily incompatible-

nor does such punishment automatically count as "threatening or curtailing personal liberty" itself.

Just as "Respect life" and "Punish those who threaten or harm innocent life" are not necessarily incompatible,

and such punishment does not automatically count as "threatening or harming innocent life".

"Individual liberty" is equivalent to "life" and "personal liberty" is equivalent to "innocent life" in this analogue.

Frenchy147
2010-10-31, 07:16 PM
Whenever something like this comes up: Did the paladin know, or did The player know.

We usually just tell our paladin theres evildoers outside or tell him to go inspect the architecture (to anyone who gets the reference)

Also, our partys' alighnments are *techinically* not evil, but we all pretty much act evil then rationalise it however we want to seem like the good guys. (other than the paladin of course).:smallwink:

Aidan305
2010-10-31, 07:21 PM
We usually just tell our paladin theres evildoers outside or tell him to go inspect the architecture (to anyone who gets the reference)
Gamer 2: Dorkness Rising. I quoted the same line earlier. It's a good one to remember.

Calmar
2010-10-31, 07:30 PM
As the DM, I would seriously consider changing the entire party's alignment to Evil for perpetrating such an act.

Torture was common practice in past ages (and apparently even today enjoys lasting popularity around the globe). While I dislike violence and/or the description thereof for it's own sake in a game, from an in-game point of view torture itself probably should be regarded as another form of interrogation and/or punishment. From an in-game perspective torture itself might not be considered an atrocity per se, but only if applied without good reason; similar to imprisonment, or execution today. Since most PCs probably don't hold official positions, and because good alignment in any case forbids to arbitrarily harm people, this means most of the time there still should not be any torture committed by player characters.

MickJay
2010-10-31, 07:34 PM
"Respect individual liberty" and "Punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty" are not necessarily incompatible-

nor does such punishment automatically count as "threatening or curtailing personal liberty" itself.

Just as "Respect life" and "Punish those who threaten or harm innocent life" are not necessarily incompatible,

and such punishment does not automatically count as "threatening or harming innocent life".

"Individual liberty" is equivalent to "life" and "personal liberty" is equivalent to "innocent life" in this analogue.

I can easily think of dozens of ways in which one can be punished without resorting to any means that would show lack of respect for life (innocent or otherwise). It's much more difficult to come up with a way of punishing someone that would NOT mean that the punished person's freedom is curtailed. The only way to avoid doing that is convincing them to accept the punishment in the first place.

Simple example: a man suspects his wife of cheating on him, therefore he locks her up in their house whenever he is going out and threatens to resort to violence (let's assume that whether he means it or not is irrelevant here) if she tried to go out without his knowledge. Considering a) that the husband is right, how should he be punished for restricting his wife's freedom? Considering b) he's wrong, how should he be punished?

Callista
2010-10-31, 07:36 PM
ok i'll clear the alinment of the group

the pally : choatic good
the barbarion; neutral ( he hates goblinoids more than most)
the cleric: evil but she dosent harm children and will protect them (due to her god)
the sorceror: evil & likes frying stuff and messing with the goblins

they are torturing the goblins to find out were their cave is and to find out were the little girl (who they took) is.
so their trying to help a lost childPaladin in an evil party. WHAT was he thinking?!


Torture was common practice in past ages (and apparently even today enjoys lasting popularity around the globe). While I dislike violence and/or the description thereof for it's own sake in a game, from an in-game point of view torture itself probably should be regarded as another form of interrogation and/or punishment. From an in-game perspective torture itself might not be considered an atrocity per se, but only if applied without good reason; similar to imprisonment, or execution today. Since most PCs probably don't hold official positions, and because good alignment in any case forbids to arbitrarily harm people, this means most of the time there still should not be any torture committed by player characters.These folks probably aren't playing in a game that's trying to duplicate the Middle Ages. Note the female cleric, for example. Plus: D&D alignment isn't subjective. It can't be; otherwise, what would be acceptable for the drow could be absolute evil for the humans, and the only standard of good and evil would be whether what you were doing was socially acceptable in your own culture--meaning that there would no longer be Good and Evil; just Law and Chaos, with Good having been subsumed into "conventional" and Evil into "social taboo" or "unconventional". There are two axes for a reason, and the Good/Evil axis isn't based on what other people think. If you're holding an official position in a government that usually uses torture to interrogate, then most likely you're Lawful Evil.

Cerlis
2010-11-01, 12:39 AM
I am reminded of how in pretty much every movie and show, the audience/fans dont seem to look down on the good character whent he rest of the group commits something morally questionable.

Dont remember the episode , but one of Firefly where Sheperd was against them doing something bad or selfish and though not satisfied with the outcome he was "ok" with simply not being involved

"ok" with 20 lbs of salt

MyLifeMyMusical
2010-11-01, 01:03 AM
... The paladin should get some of a check (spot/listen) to determine whether he notices what's going on, and if he succeeds, he has to make a difficult choice. If he fails, he remains blissfully unaware of what his party members had done, and nothing happens (unless he realizes after the fact what had occurred - in which case, again, he would have to decide what to do next). ...

In one of the groups I used to play with, we had a Paladin and an evil Sorcerer and we actually made a skill called "Oblivious" and every time the Sorcerer did anything evil, the Paladin had to make it check.

Kylarra
2010-11-01, 01:09 AM
Well, the paladin falls for associating with the evil party members, so regardless of the goblin situation, it's bad.

Mikeavelli
2010-11-01, 01:21 AM
Torture was common practice in past ages (and apparently even today enjoys lasting popularity around the globe). While I dislike violence and/or the description thereof for it's own sake in a game, from an in-game point of view torture itself probably should be regarded as another form of interrogation and/or punishment. From an in-game perspective torture itself might not be considered an atrocity per se, but only if applied without good reason; similar to imprisonment, or execution today. Since most PCs probably don't hold official positions, and because good alignment in any case forbids to arbitrarily harm people, this means most of the time there still should not be any torture committed by player characters.



Charm Person is a first level spell, and Goblins are a valid target.

Similarly, if the sorceror doesn't have access, the Cleric could simply cast Command "Answer," "Reveal," or other cleverly worded command would prompt the goblin to share the information.

Because of the easy existence of alternatives to torture, torture is unambiguously evil in D&D.

In this party, Paladin is going to fall eventually anyways. May as well just get it over with.

huttj509
2010-11-01, 01:30 AM
There's a few things that I feel should generally be agreed upon pre-game especially when paladins are concerned.

Morality: Objective or Subjective? Both can provide interesting game experiences, but subjective morality makes things difficult for alignment based spells, abilities, and classes.

Paladin Falling: 'willfully commits an evil act' is the pertinent phrase here, since the code of conduct does not specifically address torture. Now the questions are "is torture an evil act" (ties into objective vs. subjective morality), "is handing someone over to be tortured an evil act", "Is looking the other way during torture an evil act". These are questions that should NOT be left up to a forum community after the fact, but should be decided on BEFOREHAND between the GM and the player. There are myriad ways that can be decided on for drawing the boundaries between 'misstep' 'slippery slope' 'fall but atone-able' and 'were you TRYING to go for blackguard?' And many of them can provide for a fine and interesting game, as long as the folks involved are on the same page expectation-wise.

The RAW really does a not good job of delineating the boundary lines of alignment actions, which leads to discussions of 'well, was that evil, neutral grey, what?'

Really it's only an issue when the players/DM (who is also a player) disagree on whether or not a paladin ought to fall. A lot of that can be resolved by discussion beforehand.

Associates: I dislike what's in the PHB regarding associating with evil characters. It does not actually provide a penalty for association, as the blurb on associates is not part of the Code of Conduct (unless you discussed it with the player and developed an actual CODE rather than 'be LG, don't do evil, act with honor, help those in need, punish folks who harm innocents'). What the PHB says regarding associating with evil characters is basically "This is what your paladin does in response", rather than "this is what happens to the paladin". It takes the character's reaction out of the hands of the player.

Greenish
2010-11-01, 02:59 AM
Similarly, if the sorceror doesn't have access, the Cleric could simply cast Command "Answer," "Reveal," or other cleverly worded command would prompt the goblin to share the information.Command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/command.htm) doesn't work that way.

Ceaon
2010-11-01, 03:44 AM
OP, to answer your question: by the rules, yes, he'd fall for condoning torture (he would, you know, notice the missing fingers and toes of the goblin even if he was away during the torture itself, so he'd know). He should also fall for willfully aligning with evil characters.

The real question however is: why would one play a CG character at all in a neutral/evil/evil party? Especially one who holds higher ideals than other CG characters?

Solution: paladin leaves, new character (probably neutral or evil) enters.

dsmiles
2010-11-01, 04:42 AM
Command (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/command.htm) doesn't work that way.

The PHB is much less specific on uses of command. I tend to go with the books over the SRD anyways.

Aron Times
2010-11-01, 09:17 AM
Nitpick: if it's 4E, the Paladin doesn't fall regardless of god, because 4E paladins can't fall (unless they fail their Acrobatics check).
/thread

This had me ROFLMAO.