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Lateral
2010-10-31, 12:14 PM
I'm trying to get access to free, un-save-able poison. Does anyone know of a poison with a virtually impossible save DC and extremely high primary ability damage? If so, how can I get it for free? My current plan is to use Polymorph Any Object to polymorph a pebble into a Devastation Spider for an hour (+2 because they have the same Int), then figure out a way to deal it 2 charisma damage or 10 wisdom damage using touch attacks and no save (its touch AC is low enough that I could consistently hit), so it's unable to move, then harvest its poison, which is a DC 84 poison that deals 2d12 Con damage and 2d12 secondary Con damage. Any better ideas? I know there's a poison handbook, could someone point me to it? Thanks!

Edit: Yeah, 3.5. I know they suck... that's why I'm trying to get a renewable, free-except-for-spell-slots, unsaveable, virtually always deadly poison. Sure, I could just use a SoD spell, but this way I don't have to optimize saves and... ahem, it's more fun like this. :smallamused:

dsmiles
2010-10-31, 12:19 PM
I believe Type N poison is Contact type, Save (and take 3d6) or Die...wait...you want 3.5, huh?

Yeah, 3.5 poisons suck.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-31, 12:38 PM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0
It says all I'd have to say, really; and it is fulfilling your request, so...

SurlySeraph
2010-10-31, 12:39 PM
Here's the poison handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4854.0)

That sounds like a good plan. If you can hire a Psion or get enough ranks in Use Magic (or Psionic) Device, Ego Whip will do nicely to put the spider in a coma.

There's always Minor Creation + Black Lotus Extract, since it's plant-derived, but that's clearly not the power level you're looking for.

Akal Saris
2010-10-31, 02:30 PM
The Devastation Spider trick sounds good, albeit a little risky. Some other options:

Greensickness, Dungeonscape: DC 33 save, deals 2d6 Str + 1d4 Con/2d6 Str + 1d4 Con. And you can make it with Minor Creation with little risk to yourself.

You could also use Greater Planar Binding and get yourself an outsider with really good venom, like a Pit Fiend. DC 27 might be a bit low for your purposes though.

Good luck!

Darrin
2010-10-31, 04:30 PM
Buy a Chaos Flask for 100 GP (Planar Handbook). Spend a standard action and make a Wisdom check to turn it into a flask of Colossal Scorpion Poison (BoVD p. 44). If you hit something that can easily make a DC 54 Fortitude save, then you've got problems that a little vial of poison isn't going to help much.

*.*.*.*
2010-10-31, 05:24 PM
Buy a Chaos Flask for 100 GP (Planar Handbook). Spend a standard action and make a Wisdom check to turn it into a flask of Colossal Scorpion Poison (BoVD p. 44). If you hit something that can easily make a DC 54 Fortitude save, then you've got problems that a little vial of poison isn't going to help much.

That's beautiful!

Callista
2010-10-31, 05:32 PM
...you do realize that any DM worth his salt would overrule strategies like that?

Teron
2010-10-31, 05:38 PM
And no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge.

Koury
2010-10-31, 05:39 PM
...you do realize that any DM worth his salt would overrule strategies like that?

:smallsigh:

Yep. Clearly anyone who allows that is doing it wrong. Any fun derived from such a DM is of the badwrong variety.

Callista
2010-10-31, 05:45 PM
Well, think about it: This kind of thing would allow you to instakill anything you could hit. The rest of the party would have nothing to do, and the DM would have to choose between zerg rushing you with lots of enemies and using poison-immune enemies. It's like giving your character pretty much a free death attack, which is so unbalanced it's ridiculous. "Unbalanced" isn't bad because it's too much fun or something; it's bad because it suddenly makes one character much stronger than the others, and that means that it's ridiculously hard to tailor encounters that will challenge without killing.

faceroll
2010-10-31, 07:20 PM
Well, think about it: This kind of thing would allow you to instakill anything you could hit. The rest of the party would have nothing to do, and the DM would have to choose between zerg rushing you with lots of enemies and using poison-immune enemies. It's like giving your character pretty much a free death attack, which is so unbalanced it's ridiculous. "Unbalanced" isn't bad because it's too much fun or something; it's bad because it suddenly makes one character much stronger than the others, and that means that it's ridiculously hard to tailor encounters that will challenge without killing.

A DC 54 save DC isn't impossible to hit, many creature types are flat out immune to poison, and there are numerous spells, items, abilities, feats, and class features that grant immunity to poison. The PCs had better pick up some pretty quick, cause after a few sessions, some enemies might start using the same approach.

Also, with poison, the whole party can be using it. Telekinesis some arrows with poison on them, stab with a poisoned blade, etc.

SurlySeraph
2010-10-31, 07:23 PM
Nah, the DM would just start throwing lots of devils, undead, etc.

Or ban Polymorph Any Object, like most sane DMs will.

Also, switching around the feats that a monster has can often massively increase its potential. So if you polymorph a rock into a Devastation Spider, and the DM rules that it just so happens to be a Devastation Spider with Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest or Bind Vestige: Naberius...

Callista
2010-10-31, 07:51 PM
If the DM has to tailor-make most encounters so that they can't be one-shotted by a single strategy, then the strategy's too cheesy.

Are you playing an Epic game? Compare the poison you're looking for to a spell of a similar level. If your party would be able to cast a spell that does what the poison does, with similar damage, then it should be OK. Your party should be at least level 15 to cast Polymorph Any Object.

JaronK
2010-10-31, 07:58 PM
Some games play at a higher difficulty level, where such things are necessary.

Another option to consider is Sinmaker's Surprise. It's DC 24 for 2d6 con damage/2d6 con damage, but anyone hit also takes 1d6 acid damage for three rounds after the hit (no save, IIRC). The big thing about this is it's made entirely from vegetable matter (the description says as much) so Minor Creation gives you a huge number of doses (in the thousands) with a single casting that last the whole adventuring day. You can tip all your arrows this way, or just dump huge volumes on enemies. Quite handy.

JaronK

Prime32
2010-10-31, 08:03 PM
Some games play at a higher difficulty level, where such things are necessary.

Another option to consider is Sinmaker's Surprise. It's DC 24 for 2d6 con damage/2d6 con damage, but anyone hit also takes 1d6 acid damage for three rounds after the hit (no save, IIRC). The big thing about this is it's made entirely from vegetable matter (the description says as much) so Minor Creation gives you a huge number of doses (in the thousands) with a single casting that last the whole adventuring day. You can tip all your arrows this way, or just dump huge volumes on enemies. Quite handy.

JaronKPsionic minor creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/minorCreationPsionic.htm) > minor creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/minorCreation.htm)

Foryn Gilnith
2010-10-31, 08:14 PM
then the strategy's too cheesy.

"cheesy" is a meaningless phrase. Does the DM approve of the method? That's all that matters. And if the DM approves of the method, you're implying he's not worth his salt, which prompted Koury's badwrongfun comment. If a DM likes running games where Chaos Flasks can be used like that, that's his business and none of yours.

Some things to note.
1) Colossal Scorpion Poison has a more recent (i.e. more rules-legal) form in Dungeonscape. Injury DC 33, 1d10 Con/1d10 Con.
2) 1d10 Con is alright, but hardly an instakill. Even in BoVD it was only 2d8 Str.
3) [Wis score] rounds duration is alright, but a bit tricky to be sure of having prepped before combat. Since it's not a contact poison, you're going to have to apply it to a weapon before delivery.

JaronK
2010-10-31, 08:35 PM
Yes, either Minor Creation will do. I never understood why they made the psionic version so much better.

JaronK

Akal Saris
2010-10-31, 09:13 PM
Well, it's not even clear to me if the Chaos flask can create most poisons, as they are liquids rather than solid objects. But given that a diminutive creature can be formed with chaos flasks, I'd lean towards yes.

As a sidenote, I think you could run a pretty strong adventure around chaos flasks - something like the "discovery" that they can replicate DC 83 poisons or a philter of love or something. Suddenly chaos flasks are super-rare, and it turns out that the one cartel that has a monopoly on creating them (perhaps run by Slaad or githyanki) has an ulterior motive behind creating the flasks - enough chaos flasks used in a particular plane could draw the plane into the Astral Plane or Limbo!

Arcane_Secrets
2010-10-31, 09:38 PM
The Devastation Spider trick sounds good, albeit a little risky. Some other options:

Greensickness, Dungeonscape: DC 33 save, deals 2d6 Str + 1d4 Con/2d6 Str + 1d4 Con. And you can make it with Minor Creation with little risk to yourself.

You could also use Greater Planar Binding and get yourself an outsider with really good venom, like a Pit Fiend. DC 27 might be a bit low for your purposes though.

Good luck!

Another option for a nasty outsider poison is molydeus venom. Not only is it 2d6 Con drain primary/secondary, but it penetrates immunity and turns dead victims into manes.

Darrin
2010-10-31, 11:06 PM
1) Colossal Scorpion Poison has a more recent (i.e. more rules-legal) form in Dungeonscape. Injury DC 33, 1d10 Con/1d10 Con.


Yes, I just noticed that today... and Dungeonscape actually matches what's in the Monster Manual. Megapede Poison isn't too shabby, though... DC 44, but 2d6 Con + 1d4 Dex. (This is slightly incorrect, though... per the Megapede stats, the 1d4 Dex should be a penalty, not damage.)



2) 1d10 Con is alright, but hardly an instakill. Even in BoVD it was only 2d8 Str.


What makes Con damage so deadly is you're usually wailing on whatever you're trying to poison, so while the Con damage doesn't kill it outright, dropping its current HP total under the damage done so far will send it into a permanent dirt nap rather quickly. (This is what annoys me so much about playing Barbarians: rage does *not* give you extra HP! It gives you a much larger "Euthanasia Window".)



3) [Wis score] rounds duration is alright, but a bit tricky to be sure of having prepped before combat. Since it's not a contact poison, you're going to have to apply it to a weapon before delivery.

I've conjectured that a Glove of Storing/Master Strategist could be used to keep the limbo-stuff fresh, but it's not exactly a spell effect so I'm not sure that would entirely work. Probably a DM's call. Unguent of Timelessness might also work to extend the duration, but again, probably another DM's call.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-10-31, 11:58 PM
Nah, the DM would just start throwing lots of devils, undead, etc.

Or ban Polymorph Any Object, like most sane DMs will.

Also, switching around the feats that a monster has can often massively increase its potential. So if you polymorph a rock into a Devastation Spider, and the DM rules that it just so happens to be a Devastation Spider with Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest or Bind Vestige: Naberius...

Objection!!! as devastation spiders are vermin, they don't have an Int score and therefore they don't have feats!!!.

Case Closed :smallwink:

faceroll
2010-11-01, 12:00 AM
This is what annoys me so much about playing Barbarians: rage does *not* give you extra HP! It gives you a much larger "Euthanasia Window".

In that case, leveling up and con boosts don't give you extra HP.

Boci
2010-11-01, 12:10 AM
In that case, leveling up and con boosts don't give you extra HP.

Yes they do. They give you HP that doesn't dissapear in a number of rounds equal to 3 + con mod.

dgnslyr
2010-11-01, 12:15 AM
A good mug of dwarven ale. The racial fortitude bonus to poison is there for a reason, folks.

/thread