Favored Soul [3.5] build options?

[BobSutan]

Looking to put together a FV to act as a party healer, but also 2nd line tank in an urban setting. I've looked at some stuff online, but I haven't seen anything that looked like a good match for what I'M looking for. Any suggestions would be welcomed at this point.

[Psyren]

Alignment?

If LG, you can put all that Cha to use Smiting Teh Evulz with Fist of Raziel. (Full BAB, 9/10 casting.)

[SurlySeraph]

Spell selection pretty much determines your capabilities. What level do you intend to start at? Your best options depend very heavily on what spells you have access to.

Favored Souls miss out on the shenanigans that clerics can get via Divine Metamagic, but a level in Sacred Exorcist gives you Turn Undead, thus re-enabling said shenanigans. DMM + Persistent Spell and/or Chain Spell lets you put up either long-term buffs or buff the entire party with a spell that would otherwise affect just one member.

[Last Laugh]

Alignment?

If LG, you can put all that Cha to use Smiting Teh Evulz with Fist of Raziel. (Full BAB, 9/10 casting.)

Book of exalted Deeds

Actually there are bunch of PrCs in there with good BA/casting. lemme take a quick peek through

[gbprime]

We also need to know what diety or motif. There are some cool specialists available if your diety is a particular flavor. Stormlord (C Div), Holt Warden (C Champ) (probably not a great choice for an urban setting, though), Sanctified Mind or Topaz Guardian (LoM), Gray Hand Enforcer (CoS), Lord of Tides (Sand), etc...

[BobSutan]

We are starting at 1st level and I'm not really set on any alignments, although we can't be evil. We're starting the game as a special unit for the city guard and will primarily be solving crimes, doing raids, and mainly an urban campaign doing that sort of stuff.

[Thurbane]

You might also find some suggestions here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=152070).

[Thurbane]

I just found a new way to add some spells to a Favored soul, both beyond the normal number of spells known, and also from other class lists.

The drawback? It's incredibly feat intensive: Draconic Legacy. To qualify, you need the Dragontouched feat (lets you count as a Sorcerer for Draconic feats). Draconic legacy has a req of four other draconic feats (I'm assuming it doesn't count itself).

The upside is that you get to add three spells to your spells known (RotD, p. 103). If the DM lets you pick a heritage from beyond the MM, it really opens up your options. Shadow Dragon, for instance, gets Dimension Door, Mirror Image and Nondetection.

...like I said, the main drawback is the incredible feat investment.

[Daftendirekt]

I just found a new way to add some spells to a Favored soul, both beyond the normal number of spells known, and also from other class lists.

The drawback? It's incredibly feat intensive: Draconic Legacy. To qualify, you need the Dragontouched feat (lets you count as a Sorcerer for Draconic feats). Draconic legacy has a req of four other draconic feats (I'm assuming it doesn't count itself).

The upside is that you get to add three spells to your spells known (RotD, p. 103). If the DM lets you pick a heritage from beyond the MM, it really opens up your options. Shadow Dragon, for instance, gets Dimension Door, Mirror Image and Nondetection.

...like I said, the main drawback is the incredible feat investment.

Human with flaws, mwahahahaha!

[Thurbane]

Human with flaws, mwahahahaha!
Oh yeah, it's possible...but don't plan on spending feats on much else before level 9 or so. :smalltongue:

[Cog]

Oh yeah, it's possible...but don't plan on spending feats on much else before level 9 or so. :smalltongue:
The Favored of Bahamut (or Tiamat) in Dragon Magic can get you a couple of sorcerer spells as well; they come out of your spells known, but it's a free pick of the list (one first-level spell, and one fifth or sixth). Trades out focus/specialization, but you get magic claws, Dragontouched, and your capstone DR is /epic.

[dextercorvia]

I just found a new way to add some spells to a Favored soul, both beyond the normal number of spells known, and also from other class lists.

The drawback? It's incredibly feat intensive: Draconic Legacy. To qualify, you need the Dragontouched feat (lets you count as a Sorcerer for Draconic feats). Draconic legacy has a req of four other draconic feats (I'm assuming it doesn't count itself).

The upside is that you get to add three spells to your spells known (RotD, p. 103). If the DM lets you pick a heritage from beyond the MM, it really opens up your options. Shadow Dragon, for instance, gets Dimension Door, Mirror Image and Nondetection.

...like I said, the main drawback is the incredible feat investment.

CM has other Heritage lines that don't require Sorcerer or Dragontouched, so that saves 1 feat.

Edit: Nevermind, those grant SLA's.

[nedz]

I just found a new way to add some spells to a Favored soul, both beyond the normal number of spells known, and also from other class lists.

The drawback? It's incredibly feat intensive: Draconic Legacy. To qualify, you need the Dragontouched feat (lets you count as a Sorcerer for Draconic feats). Draconic legacy has a req of four other draconic feats (I'm assuming it doesn't count itself).

The upside is that you get to add three spells to your spells known (RotD, p. 103). If the DM lets you pick a heritage from beyond the MM, it really opens up your options. Shadow Dragon, for instance, gets Dimension Door, Mirror Image and Nondetection.

...like I said, the main drawback is the incredible feat investment.

Possibly the better of these pre-req feats allows you to exchange a spell slot for a breath weapon of 1d6 per spell level. This is almost like having another spell, for only three feats along Thurbane's 5 feat path.:smallcool:

[Cog]

Possibly the better of these pre-req feats allows you to exchange a spell slot for a breath weapon of 1d6 per spell level. This is almost like having another spell, for only three feats along Thurbane's 5 feat path.:smallcool:
Only arcane spells can power the Dragon Breath feat. About half those feats require arcane spells, but there's a good few that don't.

Edit: Draconic Legacy specifies that, if you already know one of the spells it gives you, you can pick any other spell of that level from the sorcerer list to replace it. That's not too shabby, if you can find a legacy that gives you decent spells that are already on the cleric list.

[No brains]

One thing I've always wondered about Favored Souls is that neither the Miniatures Handbook or Complete Divine clearly specify (to me) that a FV needs to be anywhere near their god's alignment. They just say "Any" for alignments and... also under Alignments, but the more wordy entry they say they generally act near their gods...

Bottom line: Do FVs have the same alingment restrictions as clerics? Because if not, you could be an FV who is hijacking a god's power to take them down! Cool, huh?

[Ernir]

Bottom line: Do FVs have the same alingment restrictions as clerics? Because if not, you could be an FV who is hijacking a god's power to take them down! Cool, huh?
Basically, yes.

A favored soul is often of the same alignment as her deity, though some are one step away. For example, a favored soul could serve a lawful good deity and be neutral good herself. A favored soul may not be neutral unless her deity is neutral.

[Essence_of_War]

What level of optimization are you shooting for/Does your group use?

Some things to consider:
1)race - human or lesser aasimar (+2 wis, +2 cha) are both strong choices. but you will probably be feat starved either way.
2) Stats - for higher optimization levels, the primary question becomes "pump wis or ignore wis". If you choose the former, you'll want to look to more proactive SoD/SoS spell choices as the saves will be better. If you go the latter route, you'll want to choose spells that are battlefield control or party buffing or OOC healing.
3) Dips - a 2 level paladin dip for the divine grace and various sundry things can be fun. A 4 level dip can nab you turning undead, but there are far easier ways to do this than giving up 4 CL. Never underestimate the tanking capabilities from a 1-2 level dip in Crusader. 1-2 levels + sufficient FS levels can get you thicket of blades which is fantastic for tanking. A 1 level dip in Cleric can nab you turning for DMM nonsense.
4) PRCs - If you want DMM shenannigans, a 3 level dip in prestige paladin gets you turning, divine grace, 2/3 casting, aura of courage, divine health, lay on hands, a special mount, and +3 BAB. A 4 level dip in regular paladin gets this also but is not recommended. Later on, if you can spare a feat for Iron Will, the Sanctified Mind gets you 5/6 casting and +6 BAB in addition to some useful aberration and anti-mind magic abilities. A 1 leve dip in Sacred Exorcist can get you the turning ability to fuel DMM also.

For a 2nd line tank I might try something like:
Favored Soul 4 / Crusader 2 / Prestige Paladin 3 / Sanctified Mind 6/ Favored Soul 5-9.

You lose a total of 4 CL, BAB +17. and unless you're a human with flaws, you're going to be extremely feat starved.

For more casting focused, cutting the crusader:
Favored Soul 5/ Prestige Paladin 3/ Sanctified Mind 6/ Favored Soul 6-11

It loses only 2 CL, gets BAB +17 plus lots of the other goodies I mentioned. It is still really feat starved.

This can get the juices flowing. I really like the flavor of the prestige paladin with the favored soul, and if you like hunting/killing aberrations then the Sanctified Mind can be a blast also.

[No brains]

Basically, yes.

Yes they are restricted exactly as a cleric or yes that would be cool?:smallsmile:

The text you kindly provided (thanks:smallwink:)doesn't expressly disallow FVs from being wildly different align-wise from their god. I guess a simpler way to decode this is to find out if 'spontanteous divine spells' can be denied by the diety.

Also, do FVs always intuitively know who the name and agenda of their patron/matron?

[Fox Box Socks]

Lord of Tides
YES.

Slightly stunted casting progression, but it totally makes up for it with the ability to suck the water out of people.

[Thurbane]

Well there you go - I always thought FS had to be within one step of their deity's alignment...according to the exact wording it's optional. I think I'd still enforce it in my games...

[Amphetryon]

Algernon of the White Lilies....

what? :smallsmile:

[Saintheart]

(Spoiler alert for those who haven't played Red Hand of Doom.)

This discussion's actually of some interest to me because of the Red Hand Of Doom handbook I run. It's mainly because Wyrmlord Kharn, the general of the Horde army and a hobgoblin that the party faces at the climax of the Battle of Brindol, is on the original text a Favored Soul 6/Talon of Tiamat 4 (IIRC).

Most DMs of RHOD seem to regard this as a distinctly subpar opponent for the party to face. The common fix for the build is usually to ring in Tome of Battle and rebuild as a Crusader 1/Cleric 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 5 or some variant thereof. Builds that don't involve ToB are usually Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 5/X 1.

So my question and challenge is: does it have to be this complicated? If you're time pressed, don't have ToB, or don't want to really rebuild him, can you have a more stripped down and better Favored Soul build than the RHOD text provides?

Kharn's book stats, for reference:

Male hobgoblin favored soul 6/talon of Tiamat 4
LE Medium humanoid (goblinoid)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Listen +1,
Spot +1
Languages Common, Draconic, Goblin, Infernal
AC 24, touch 10, flat-footed 24
hp 68 (10 HD)
Resist electricity 10, fire 5
Fort +13, Ref +7, Will +8
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares)
Melee +1 wounding heavy pick +12/+7 (1d6+4 plus 1 Con/×4)
or
Melee +1 greatsword +11/+6 (2d6+4/19–20)
Ranged mwk light crossbow +7 (1d8/19–20)
Base Atk +7; Grp +10
Special Actions breath weapons
Combat Gear 2 potions of cure serious wounds, potion of fly,
potion of haste
Favored Soul Spells Known (CL 8th)
4th (3/day)—air walk, divine power, freedom of movement
3rd (6/day)—cure serious wounds, dispel magic, searing light
(+6 ranged touch), wind wall
2nd (7/day)—aid, bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, cure
moderate wounds, death knell (DC 12)
1st (7/day)—cure light wounds, divine favor, entropic shield,
magic weapon, obscuring mist, shield of faith
0 (6/day)—cure minor wounds, detect magic, guidance,
inflict minor wounds (DC 10), mending, purify food and
drink, read magic, resistance
Abilities Str 16, Dex 8, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 16
Feats Diehard, Dragonthrall*, Endurance, Improved Initiative,
Weapon Focus (heavy pick)B
*New feat described on page 126
Skills Bluff +13, Diplomacy +5, Intimidate +19, Knowledge
(arcana) +8
Possessions combat gear plus +2 red dragoncraft full plate*,
+2 heavy steel shield, +1 wounding heavy pick, masterwork
light crossbow with 10 bolts, gauntlets of ogre power, cloak
of resistance +2, ring of protection +1
*See page 126 for dragoncraft items
Breath Weapons (Su) Wyrmlord Hravek Kharn can use two
different breath weapons, each 1/day; at least 1d4 rounds
must pass between these uses. His first breath weapon
is a 30-foot cone that deals 3d6 points of cold damage.
His second is a 60-foot line that deals 8d4 points of acid
damage. A DC 16 Reflex save halves the damage from
either breath weapon; this save DC is Constitution-based.

(Bear in mind this is an opponent hopefully only needed for one combat. Kharn is, on the RHOD text, supported only by four hill giants and is on brightly-lit flat terrain with no cover.) You're stuck with an LE alignment because he's the general of an army, and I think you're also stuck with hobgoblin as his race. Half-dragon prrrrobably isn't kosher, either, since the BBEG is one already.

So ... any takers? Can you do better than these stats with 10 character levels and a build that better uses Favored Soul?

[zaset]

(Spoiler alert for those who haven't played Red Hand of Doom.)So ... any takers? Can you do better than these stats with 10 character levels and a build that better uses Favored Soul?

Well, let's look at the problems and address them in turn. Seems like you want to optimize him without changing his build too much, so we'll go with that.

His situation: he doesn't have "no cover" - he has moveable cover, in the form of hill giant lackeys.

His stats seem weird. Hobgoblins get a racial +2 to Dex and Con. This means his stats after two stat-ups are 16 14 12 12 10 6, ignoring racial mods. Seems a little off from the elite array. I think they neglected his racial dex mod, and that should be knocked up two points. I could be missing something on that score, though. That'd remove his dex penalty to AC, increase his reflex saves by one, and importantly put his touch AC to 11 instead of 10, meaning he's making use of that ring of protection now.

His items aren't really helping his build. He's using gauntlets of ogre power and a wounding pick as though his primary means of picking people off is going to be melee combat - he's hoping for con drain over time and perhaps a lucky critical. However, his spell list doesn't back up his item choices; instead, they overlap. He's got a strength enhancement item, and two spells that give a strength enhancement at different levels; for my money, those gauntlets would be better replaced by an amulet of health +2. +2 Con increases his hit points by 10, which is pretty significant considering he starts with 68; it also increases the save DCs for both his breath weapon attacks by 1 each. Further, the weapon is a lot of wealth that isn't particularly optimized for him yet, but we can decide if there's a better option for that in a moment. His armor's pretty cool looking, and iconic, so we'll leave that alone. His other items are all basic defense items; nothing wrong, but nothing specialized, either. We could potentially trade that crossbow for a real bow so he'd get two attacks with a full attack action.

Now, his spells: Divine Power is excellent if we're going to keep him in melee, which seems to be a given. Air Walk, on the other hand, isn't giving him major advantages that I can see; it just makes him even more visible. We can potentially trade that in unless he needs it for RP reasons. It's a good spell, but not optimized for him, is my point. Freedom of movement, though, is an excellent choice. We could trade in Air Walk for Imbue with Spell Ability which'd let him transfer some of his spells to the hill giants (say, giving each of them a CLW or something), and that could happen prior to combat; or, greater magic weapon, which'd give him some options in making that crossbow (or bow!) really count. We could also trade Air Walk in for Mass Shield of Faith, from Spell Compendium, which would increase his and the Giant's deflection bonuses to AC to 3. Greater Magic Weapon would last 8 hours for him, and so it could be a "Cast this on the clubs of the two giants I like better" spell, while he has the other two throwing the rocks from all four until they run out before they join the melee. As for his third level spells, alright; wind wall's very strong at forcing the party to come closer and not simply pick him off, searing light is alright for what it's trying to do, and cure serious and dispel magic are staples. Still, trading one for mass lesser vigor might help make the encounter more interesting. Wind wall doesn't prevent thrown rocks, only light projectiles, right? I keep forgetting. I'd seriously consider trading in searing light for either a magic circle against >alignment< spell, or for magic vestment. The first makes the giants much stronger, and the second makes him somewhat stronger but acts as an all-day buff. It's a decent enough buff to blow on the giants, even. If you do trade out searing light, I'd recommend finding a reasonable ranged weapon for him to replace it with. For second level spells, Aid's a good "trouble's coming" spell. Bear's and Bull's are also decent, especially for buffing up the giants; they have more HD than he does and so get more HP from a con bonus. They also spend less time spellcasting, and so use that strength bonus more often; plus, he's got his own str bonus from divine power. Death Knell, though; that's a pretty low will save. It's a decent but not gamebreaking bonus for him to have if he can get it off; we can probably find a better spell at that level for him. Hold Person? Bewildering Substitution, make the fighter think a giant and the wizard just changed places? Spiritual weapon, or perhaps eagle's splendor? I think eagle's splendor gets you an extra 4th-level spell while it's active, in addition to another 1st-level. Owl's Wisdom means you'd actually have a bonus to save DCs. Personally, I'd go with either Close Wounds - to keep the giants up! - or spiritual weapon, so I'd have a decent ranged attack of a sort. His first level spells are all solid; a protection from good spell might help with the old will saves on the giants, but that's the same discussion as that Magic circle against alignment bit. Trading a spell out for lesser vigor at this level may also be helpful.

Feats. His feats are pretty bad. I could be wrong, but I think fast healing from vigor stabilizes you; endurance and diehard are useless unless necessary for that prestige class. His weapon focus isn't really making it worthwhile to wield that pick on its own; power attack would be a more worthwhile option. I'm going to assume the Dragonwhatever feat has something to do with his breath weapons and let it slide. The cone of cold is more useful as a finisher than anything else for anyone that looks particularly low on health, like a runner. On the other hand, you asked for some real advice or options, so here it is: turn that pick into a dragonbone longbow. Dragonbone, arms and equipment guide I think, means it's a composite bow of whatever his current strength modifier is. It fits thematically with his whole dragon motif, too. Switch his feats around to optimize using a bow a little bit; the arrows still get the wounding quality, but now he can engage them from far away instead of needing a method to close quickly. He still benefits from Divine Power in the form of better attack bonus and better damage from strength. He can also focus more on buffing his lackeys. I guess... point blank shot, and then far shot or rapid shot. Far shot means he can shoot even further than boulders can be thrown; rapid shot means he gets four arrow attacks with his haste potion up: four chances to do damage AND knock down constitution, which does even more damage. Alternately, if he took travel devotion, he'd get be able to stick with the pick and do melee, which might be more thrilling for the players. First round, he'd activate the travel devotion ability and quaff the potion; second, he's moving as a swift action and then full attacking, and he can do that for eight more rounds. If you need the breathing room to do it, well, that's why we know obscuring mist. With the speed bonus from haste, that's all the way up to 60 feet as a swift action (40 feet, because of his armor? how does haste work with medium armor again? it's late!). Not too shabby. Also, travel devotion is thematically appropriate for an army: fluff and crunch, all in one neat little package.

If you don't mind modifying base monsters, instead of normal base hill giants, have them trade in improved sunder for awesome blow. It's pretty strong at getting their melee out of the way, and quick. You might do this for all of them or just half; half good at sundering and half good at making the melee approach through reach for an AoO every round is pretty decent.

So there you have how I'd switch it up: make him a primary buffer/secondary pseudopouncer or primary buffer/secondary ranged attacker. Some other items suggest themselves; if he's going to be using shield of faith at all, or especially mass shield of faith, trade in that ring of protection for a ring of the ram with only a quarter of its charges left (same price) (if he's using the bow, this is how he gets them to stay away: 3d6 damage and a giant bull rush! works even better if there're lava pits around). Naturally, the fly potion is his getaway card, used with obscuring mist if necessary. Close wounds and travel devotion are both very strong (things you might not even want in your campaign) because they basically give him things to do with his swift actions, which he didn't before. It's worth noting using close wounds means he can't move as a swift action on the next turn, so he might have to make a tactical judgement call. Imbue with Spell Ability almost seems like a bit of a gotcha; the big downside is it only works with abjurations, divinations, and conjuration(healing) spells. The giants qualify for it, though, so it might be worth looking into: if they can buff themselves, the favored soul need not do it. It would burn his fourth level spell slots, though, and I'm not sure that's totally worthwhile compared to his other options.

... if they're stronger in melee than with abilities requiring saves, that cloak of resistance might be better off as an amulet of natural armor.

I realize this isn't a full-on optimized build, but I think it addresses most of the major problems with him being weak in the encounter. Awesome Blow/Ring of the Ram lets him shove people around really well; we've removed his spells with saves, or otherwise addressed the issue of the saves being low because of his nonexistent wisdom modifer; we've made that wounding-property weapon work for him. (If you don't like the bow idea or the pick... roll for weapon types on the loot table, and then built him around having a +1 wounding whatever you find, instead. You might roll up a spiked chain) The biggest thing, overall, is that con modifier. Every time it goes up, so do his hitpoints, his fort save, and the save DC on those breath weapons, which do a decent bit of damage. It's worth trying to line up the tank and the glass cannon with the acid breath. Feel free to have the giants use awesome blows to move the party where they least want to be. Umm, remember that magic weapon can just be straightup cast on those boulders to give them +1 to attack and damage, too, as well as +1 to the DC of catching it for all other giants. I don't know that that's worth your time, but there it is.

[nedz]

Someone has cast Animate Dead followed by Wall of Text