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Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 11:14 AM
I just love this class, it is oozing flavor and it is in my opinion goof if not at least a solid class, plus it has a really nice picture

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

The problem is, that I don't have idea on how to make a good elocater, I might want to play one in the futre so I ask for general advice on how to make a solid Elocater.

Highlights
6+int skills
two good saves
gan get massive attack and damage bonuses (+6 basically for free is nothing to scoff at)
7/10 manifesting progresion, so you still get 9th powers (assuming a pure psionic entry)
Medium Bab, not that bad
Scorn Earth is awesome!!!
The two 5 foot steps are nice, and if you can pump your tumble checks to reliably make DC 40 ones, you can move 20 ft for free!!
Acceleated actions is GREAT!!!

The Bad:
Low hd: d6
Can't be entered by a pure psion till level 9
Dimesion Doos PLA and Dimensional spring attack are just 1/day.

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-01, 11:21 AM
Psychic Rogue could do well (the wizards online one sombody link it)
Skulk if you play it with a hombrew fix

Sneak attackers seem like they could make really good use of the Elocator flanking abilities.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 11:22 AM
Oh right, psyrogues... and skulks... they were a human sub-race from RoD right???

dsmiles
2010-11-01, 11:24 AM
Personally I've done it as a Rogue/PsyWar. I imagine it could be done with a Swordsage/PsyWar as well, but I personally like the Rogue/PsyWar concept better.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 11:27 AM
Hmmm swordsage/Psyway (or ardent) might be a good idea...... and I was planning on goind swordsage with mushu.... hmmm I might need to tweak the concept a bit, but I think it might work just great..../mad rambles.

Ok to clarify, I was woing to play a Dragonwrought Feral Kobold Swordsage (mushu), but now that Dsmiles, has put the swordsage/psywar on the table.... going psywar or ardent will make for a good lead in, into Elocater.

Person_Man
2010-11-01, 11:29 AM
The Elocator (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/elocater.htm) is mechanical garbage:

7/10 manifester progression = seriously nerfed powers.
3/4 BAB = nerfed Power Attack combos.
Mobility and Spring Attack as pre-reqs are mostly useless feat taxes.
Opportunistic Strike only applies to the first attack each round, and it has the "that has been dealt damage in melee by another character since the elocaterís last action" requirement.
Scorn Earth is nifty, but can be duplicated by various spells, feats, powers, and magic items.
Dimension Step and Transporter duplicate psionic powers that most psionic characters already have access to.
Flanker is duplicated by feats and maneuvers, and is only really useful if you have a dedicated Sneak Attacker in your party.
Capricious Step is in effect duplicated by various things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358), including Hustle and Psionic Lion's Charge.
Dimension Spring Attack is garbage because Spring Attack is garbage.
Accelerated Action, like all action economy, is very useful. But it's not worth 9 levels of suck to get to it. And it's less useful then Schism (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Schism), which has a much longer duration.


Honestly, you should just play a Psion/Slayer or Psychic Warrior. With careful feat and power selection, you can duplicate all of the Elocator's abilities, but more effectively.

Last Laugh
2010-11-01, 11:36 AM
I've been told that the Ardent calculates power access based on manifester level.
If this is true Ardent 10(dominant ideal)/Elocator 10 with practiced manifester would be handy.

Benefit: At 10th level, you choose one of your primary mantles to become the dominant ideal in your philosophy, deepening your connection to this fundamental principle. You do not need to expend your psionic focus when applying metapsionic feats to powers you manifest from your chosen primary mantle, and the power point cost of augmenting or applying metapsionic feats to these idealized powers is reduced by 2 (to a minimum of 0). The reduction in cost applies only to the additional power points spent on augmentation or metapsionic feats; the power's normal power point cost is not reduced.
Let me know if I'm not allowed to copy/paste from WotC.

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-01, 11:47 AM
Mobility and Spring Attack as pre-reqs are mostly useless feat taxes.
Dimension Spring Attack is garbage because Spring Attack is garbage.


On that if you con convince a Dm to let you use the PF vital strike feats spring attacking becomes a bit better.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 11:51 AM
The Elocator (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/elocater.htm) is mechanical garbage:

7/10 manifester progression = seriously nerfed powers.
3/4 BAB = nerfed Power Attack combos.
Mobility and Spring Attack as pre-reqs are mostly useless feat taxes.
Opportunistic Strike only applies to the first attack each round, and it has the "that has been dealt damage in melee by another character since the elocaterís last action" requirement.
Scorn Earth is nifty, but can be duplicated by various spells, feats, powers, and magic items.
Dimension Step and Transporter duplicate psionic powers that most psionic characters already have access to.
Flanker is duplicated by feats and maneuvers, and is only really useful if you have a dedicated Sneak Attacker in your party.
Capricious Step is in effect duplicated by various things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358), including Hustle and Psionic Lion's Charge.
Dimension Spring Attack is garbage because Spring Attack is garbage.
Accelerated Action, like all action economy, is very useful. But it's not worth 9 levels of suck to get to it. And it's less useful then Schism (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Schism), which has a much longer duration.


Honestly, you should just play a Psion/Slayer or Psychic Warrior. With careful feat and power selection, you can duplicate all of the Elocator's abilities, but more effectively.

I love your guides, and your insight is extremely valuable; but sometimes I feel you sound a bit too harsh when talking about this kind of stuff. Please don't take it badly, it is just somethig I felt I need to say.

Having said that, I will take your advice into account; but please tell me, hwo can you duplicate scorn earth?



I've been told that the Ardent calculates power access based on manifester level.
If this is true Ardent 10(dominant ideal)/Elocator 10 with practiced manifester would be handy.

Let me know if I'm not allowed to copy/paste from WotC.

I'll keep that in mind, thanks I have forgotten about the Dominant Mante ACF



On that if you con convince a Dm to let you use the PF vital strike feats spring attacking becomes a bit better.

I am not familiar with that feat, can you please explain or link it to me?

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-01, 12:01 PM
Spring Attack [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 13, Dodge, Mobility, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit
When using the attack action with a melee weapon, you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack, though it might provoke attacks of opportunity from other creatures, if appropriate. You canít use this feat if you are wearing heavy armor.

You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack.



http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/vital-strike-combat---final

They technically can't work togeather per the PF Spring Attack wording but the 3.5 wording appears to allow it.

Person_Man
2010-11-01, 01:00 PM
Having said that, I will take your advice into account; but please tell me, hwo can you duplicate scorn earth?

Anything that gives you the ability to fly is superior, in that it allows you to ignore difficult terrain and move vertically. You can easily attain flight with the Dragonborn or Raptorian race, the Fly spell, the Psionic Fly power, the Star Spawn feat, and a wide variety of magic items.

The Combat Acrobat feat (PHBII) allows you to ignore up to 4 squares of difficult terrain with a DC 15 Balance check, and allows you to ignore being knocked prone with a DC 20 check.

You can also Jump as part of movement (in fact it's required as part of Leap Attack), which also bypasses difficult terrain.

Psyren
2010-11-01, 01:36 PM
Elocater is suboptimal but I wouldn't call it "garbage." It's one of few psionic PrCs that doesn't lose an ML on entry. More importantly imo, the best ability is at 7 (Capricious Step) letting you safely break at 7 and only lose 2 ML. The feat tax is indeed sucky, but Psywars and Psyrogues - the logical entry choices - have feats to spare anyway. The 6+Int skills means the latter doesn't give up much, while the former has a great deal to gain, and the skill list is great (Disable Device! UPD!).

dsmiles
2010-11-01, 01:38 PM
Elocater is suboptimal but I wouldn't call it "garbage." It's one of few psionic PrCs that doesn't lose an ML on entry. More importantly imo, the best ability is at 7 (Capricious Step) letting you safely break at 7 and only lose 2 ML. The feat tax is indeed sucky, but Psywars and Psyrogues - the logical entry choices - have feats to spare anyway. The 6+Int skills means the latter doesn't give up much, while the former has a great deal to gain, and the skill list is great (Disable Device! UPD!).

I can't argue that it's not suboptimal, but it's sure as hell fun!

Psyren
2010-11-01, 01:50 PM
You can duplicate the other abilities, sure, but 10' step is powerful and unique enough imo to make the class worth it, particularly with only 2 lost ML.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-11-01, 02:04 PM
A 10' step is also only a (if I remember correctly) DC 40 tumble check away, so I'm not sure that something that can be achieved via skill points (and a magic item to boost your check) is worth two manifester levels.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 02:06 PM
but with elocater and the tumble check, you get two 10 ft steps... might be interesting in a scout build with improded skirimish.

jiriku
2010-11-01, 02:09 PM
Elocator is most effective when approached from a class that already emphasizes skill use, flanking, and mobility. To me, that just screams rogue or scout entry (+psion to capitalize on skill point/Int synergy, or psywar for bonus feats). The class clearly wants you to use Spring Attack. True, Spring Attack isn't the most optimal attack tactic, but I'd say you're best just accepting that as an Elocator, you Spring Attack, and going ahead and being darn good at it. Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz are there for you (and a kind DM might just roll both those feats into Spring Attack and let you get 3 for 1; it wouldn't be overpowered). So is Power Attack.

While Person_Man and I disagree about the relevancy of Power Attack for an Elocator, my position is that for a given X attack bonus, the fewer iterative attacks you're making, the more efficiently you can use Power Attack. As far as attack bonus goes Medium BAB + Opportunistic Strike + Flanking bonus >= Full BAB + Flanking bonus, while giving you fewer iteratives, so go ahead and Power Attack like there's no tomorrow.

If you're a psion/scout/elocator, consider Able Learner at 1st level and Knowledge Devotion (+Collector of Stories) at higher level to further improve your wallop (and give you a useful role as party sage and know-it-all), or Improved Skirmish. There are actually quite a few ways you could choose to go, depending on your feat and skill selections.

However, you're not a primary melee combatant in a fight, you're a striker and melee support character. Live within that role, and shine outside of combat Use your skill points from class and high Int (you have high Int, right?), combined with your psionic progression, to be versatile in a variety of roles. You can be party trapfinder, scout, transporter, handyman, and information gatherer, more or less all at once. Don't compare yourself to the psion or psychic warrior, compare yourself to the scout, rogue, and factotum.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 02:12 PM
The rogue/psion elocater idea, intrigues me, what would be the best option to make a fully useable build through all levels.

Psyren
2010-11-01, 02:17 PM
Instead of rogue/psion, you can also consider Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b). Int-focused and a much better skill-monkey.

Drop out of elocater at 7, the last three abilities aren't worth losing a third ML imo.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 02:22 PM
I want higher level powers so i think I'll stick to psion... what discipline would be beter? psychotransportations fits perfectly fluff-wise, but both psychometabolism and metacreativity are far more powerful.

First one has metamorphosis for multiple shape fun and the second one has psionic minor creation for poison fun and astral construct to have a reliable source for opportunistic attack.

Psyren
2010-11-01, 02:28 PM
Pick the one that gets you the most powers you want; you can pick up odd powers like Metamorphosis via Expanded Knowledge. (Or just learning it if you go the Erudite route.)

jiriku
2010-11-01, 02:29 PM
Well, psion 4/rogue 2 qualifies you, or psion 5/rogue 1 if you're using fractional base attack rules (which I heartily endorse). Both these approaches maximize manifester levels, although I think they miss the point of the class. I think the intended entry is probably rogue 4/psion 1, which maximizes skill points. The elocator seems to me more of a skill monkey/striker who develops some psionic powers, rather than a psion who happens to dish out a little melee.

Rogue 4/psion 1/elocator 7/illithid slayer 8 perhaps? I'm AFB and don't have a categorical knowledge of psionic prestige classes, but it would seem that you'd want to continue progressing attack bonus, hit points, skill progression, and psionic power progression in a fairly even manner.

After thinking it over, I think Staggering Strike would really be a take-away feat for you at level 9. Wallop somebody for a lot, stagger them, and walk away: you're both dealing damage and exercising action denial. Pick up the rest of the Spring Attack tree and you could wallop two or three somebodies, stagger them all, and end your turn threatened by none of them.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 02:35 PM
Hmmm haven't considered it that way, seems reasonable.... but it seems ardent might work better... arg desitions.... ...

Psyren
2010-11-01, 02:42 PM
If you're going Ardent, you may want to go Swordsage instead of Rogue for the Wis synergy, and use maneuvers/clever positioning for damage instead of sneak attack. Ardents also have another avenue for getting cross-list powers: through mantle selection and customization.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 02:44 PM
Ok so a Swordsage 1/Ardent 5/Elocater 7/Swordsage + 1/Slayer 6 might be a good option... probably will re-skin some mantles, to get better powers...

Psyren
2010-11-01, 03:19 PM
Don't forget to load up your psicrystal with feats and Feat Leech them. You can borrow a number equal to your Wis bonus, which will of course be pretty high as an Ardent.

Metapsionic feats have no prerequisites and are leechable, so cram those onto your pet rock and keep the goodies like Expanded Knowledge for yourself.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 03:21 PM
Now it is RAW, but I doubt my DM will let that trick fly.... maybe I'll run it by him.

What race do you suggest for this build?

Psyren
2010-11-01, 03:47 PM
Xephs are the logical choice; speedy, dextrous and psionic. Buommans get a Wis bonus and psionics mean the no-speaking thing won't be an issue. And of course, you can't go wrong with Humans.

Since mobility is your thing I'd avoid a short race with 20' move.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 03:56 PM
As a rule I avoid small races (that aren't whisper gnomes or kobolds :smallamused:) so that doesn't matter... now Xephs... arg.. I hate the artwork for them, but they get really nice options (Xeph Celerity. sign me in)... Humans as you said are never wrong... Buoman... I don't have the Planar Handbood handy at the moment, so I'll reserve my comments on them.

But realisticly speaking Mushu is still the best option, as for the low cost of 1 feat and one template I get
Str + 0
Dex + 0
Con + 2
Wis +3
Int -1
Cha +3

Which taking into acount my rolled stats (17, 16, 14, 13,13 12) give me
17 str, 16 dex, 14 con, 16 wis, int 12, cha 15 .

Keld Denar
2010-11-01, 04:25 PM
Synads are aberration type and get a free swift action that could be used to manifest Hustle to turn it into a move action. They also get bonus PP. Another possibility for Ardent might be Dragonborn Water Half-Orc. Half-Orcs get penalties to all mental skills EXCEPT Wisdom, which is your manifesting stat. Then you'd get a +2 Str and +2 Con which is useful.

If your DM allows homebrew, consider Ephemeral Blade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5883542) as an alternative. Eldariel made it, so you know its good. It focuses on combining Psychoportation powers and Diamond Mind maneuvers. It actually allows you to pull off the Dimension Spring Attack with a martial strike instead of just a crappy single attack. I'm playing one on an Ardent/Warblade chassis (just ignore the Warblade +int abilities, the low level ones are crappy), and Dim Hopping around the battlefield using Emerald Razor is pretty awesome. The Freedom mantle goes with the build SO awesomely amazing.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 04:27 PM
Hmmm.... why are there so many good options... >.< not fair...

Keld Denar
2010-11-01, 04:32 PM
Better than having no good options...or worse yet, no options at all!

This ray of sunshine brought to you by the Keld Denar foundation. :smallcool:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 04:34 PM
...... point taken, but I still have a chronic indesition symdrome.. I can't really make desitions easily

Keld Denar
2010-11-01, 04:40 PM
You remember that build that I made that you liked? Play that. Problem solved.

Also, you should have steak for dinner tonight, and watch the movie Kick Ass with your date.

Anything else I can do for you while I'm making all of your important life decisions for you? :smallcool:

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-01, 04:41 PM
Hey no fair.... that just applies to D&D characters...