Foreign Languages!

[Erts]

So, for college, I want to take a language that makes me stand out. I have Spanish under my belt, but, well, no offense to Latin America (which is awesome) but Spanish is the most popular language in High School. So, over the summer, before I submit applications next year, I want to fulfill a language requirement.

I've thought about ASL, Russian, Farsi, Arabic, Japanese, Brazilian Portuguese, or Turkish.
Please, don't let this thread get political...
Ideas? Suggestions?

[Haruki-kun]

Do you have any idea what you're majoring in? If you do, that is one of the first things to consider.

[Syka]

Yeah, major is a huge factor. For business, German, Japanese, Chinese, and even Arabic would be good choices. Arabic and Chinese are more general good choices, too.

If you are going in to a liberal art- particularly history based majors like Classics, History, Archaeology- you can't go wrong with Latin, Greek (Modern and Ancient), French, and German. For Classics graduate school, for instance, French and German are required, along with the expected Latin and Ancient Greek, because many texts are in French and German.

Etc.

[Eloel]

I've thought about Russian, Farsi, Arabic, Japanese, Brazilian Portuguese, or Turkish.

Out of those choices, "# of people talking"-wise, it's either Arabic or Turkish. I suspect Turkish is spoken by more people, but I'm biased. :smallsmile:

If you're majoring in anything science-related, Latin, if you manage to learn, will be a HUGE help to you.

[Rogue 7]

If you're really looking for business opportunities and the like, I'm fairly sure that knowledge of Chinese is going to be highly useful. It's already the most common language I hear around here, and I'm going to college at the University of Rochester. China's on the up.

Saying that, I cannot for the life of me decipher the language. It all, unfortunately, sounds the same to me. Of my experiences with foreign language, I know French and a bit of Japanese. Of the two, I've had the much better experience with Japanese- what I've been exposed to so far is much simpler than French, but I am highly biased, with a much better opinion of Japan than France.

[Haruki-kun]

Yeah, major is a huge factor. For business, German, Japanese, Chinese, and even Arabic would be good choices. Arabic and Chinese are more general good choices, too.

If you are going in to a liberal art- particularly history based majors like Classics, History, Archaeology- you can't go wrong with Latin, Greek (Modern and Ancient), French, and German. For Classics graduate school, for instance, French and German are required, along with the expected Latin and Ancient Greek, because many texts are in French and German.

Etc.

Also, for anything related to engineering you want German or Japanese. For anything related to Art, French.

So DO you have a major in mind?

[Irbis]

Also, for anything related to engineering you want German or Japanese. For anything related to Art, French.

I find this a little biased, you know. 1/4 of the world's engineering literature in general, and up to 50% in certain fields (like nuclear engineering or space programs) either originates in Russian, or is immediately released in it.

The same for art - if you want to stay on beaten-to-death topics, that is, western European art, sure, French might be good, but if you have interest in beautiful Monastic/Orthodox/Eastern art, which is still largely unknown in the west (say, Andrei Rublev, who is easily compared to best western painters), you can't beat Slavic languages.

That being said, I'd pick one of the four languages of rising major countries, that is, the BRIC bloc (Brazil, Russia, India, China). Since you already know English in Spanish, you could somewhat communicate in two of them, which leaves two possibilities. And, since one of these is almost the same culturally, well...

I know what I'd pick :P

But then again, to me, most Slavic languages are almost second nature.

[Haruki-kun]

I find this a little biased, you know. *snip*

That's what they taught me in school. *shrug* It's not 100% true, but it's surely not completely inaccurate, either.

[CynicalAvocado]

heritage could be a good reason too, i'm teaching myself german

[Elentari]

Ok, weighing in as a deaf person, I think you should take ASL. Of course, I'm biased but who cares right? :smalltongue:

The other people are correct though, considering your major is a good idea. If you go into the sciences, Latin would help tremendously, etc etc. This applies to different languages and different majors of course.

But, your best option is to pick one that you really want to learn. This will help you learn it. If you hate the language, it won't come easily to you.

[Marnath]

I'm jealous of you people who can just go learn languages. :smalltongue:
I tried to learn spanish once and it just wouldn't stick to the inside of my head. I don't know why.

[Cahokia]

Which do you like the sound of best, or do you enjoy speaking the most? This is how I made my decision of what language to study in college. English remains my favorite, probably because of my native speaker's bias, but it feels so good to speak French. My palate just squeals in pleasure on a good day for pronunciation.

[13_CBS]

So, for college, I want to take a language that makes me stand out. I have Spanish under my belt, but, well, no offense to Latin America (which is awesome) but Spanish is the most popular language in High School. So, over the summer, before I submit applications next year, I want to fulfill a language requirement.

I've thought about ASL, Russian, Farsi, Arabic, Japanese, Brazilian Portuguese, or Turkish.
Please, don't let this thread get political...
Ideas? Suggestions?

Purely for standing out? You could try Turkish, Farsi, or Arabic: assuming that you're American (if not, feel free to correct me), most people in my college tend to take one of the more popular romance languages (namely [Castillian] Spanish, French), German, Chinese (my school is highly business-oriented), and, in the case of people who like to watch anime, Japanese. Few seem to take things like Korean, Arabic, Farsi, one of the Scandinavian languages, other middle-eastern languages, and Hindi languages (Urdu, Sanskrit, etc).

[Syka]

That being said, I'd pick one of the four languages of rising major countries, that is, the BRIC bloc (Brazil, Russia, India, China). Since you already know English in Spanish, you could somewhat communicate in two of them, which leaves two possibilities. And, since one of these is almost the same culturally, well...

I know what I'd pick :P

But then again, to me, most Slavic languages are almost second nature.

Wait, which two are you talking about? I get the Spanish-Portugese connection, but I'm not sure which other language you were talking about being associated with English or Spanish (Russian?)?

And which is the same to the West culturally? Once again, my first instinct is Russia, but that eliminates it in the first question. India and China both have vastly different cultures and languages- not only from the USA and Western European countries, but also within the country itself.

Your advice is sound, though. It is one reason I recommended Chinese. As business languages go, English and Japanese were still at the top if I remember correctly, with German being important and Arabic greatly growing. The BRIC nations may be coming in to play much more, but the language of business will probably take a bit to change.


And this is why a world wide language for business, like Esperanto or something, would make life easier, lol. I'm hoping to eventually learn Arabic. German is definitely on my list, and...well...I'm sure I'll eventually attempt Japanese or a dialect of Chinese, but I'm not sure how well I will succeed, heh. I want to be in international marketing, so I definitely need SOME language other than European dialects.

I've got the Romance languages covered (about 6 years of Latin all told and a year of Spanish covered that) and kind of Greek (and associated languages...I can pronounce a decent bit of Russian, etc, despite not knowing what a single word in Russian means, lol).


EDIT: I looooove how Farsi is written and sounds. Same for Arabic. It just so beautiful to my ears, and the writing looks so fluid.

Also, I want to learn Italian but that's more of a "harkening back to my roots" thing than something to further my career.

[snoopy13a]

Further education in Spanish might be the best bet if you're an American. Save Brazil, the US, and Canada (and a few others), it is pretty much the language of the Americas.

Additionally, Spanish is a useful skill for Americans to have due to the significant Spanish-speaking population here.

Also, high school level foreign language classes are not enough to make one fluent. In order to truly get the language under the belt, one must really take intensive college courses.

[AtopTheMountain]

I'll just pop in to say that Norwegian is the most badass-sounding language on the planet. :smallamused:

[Irbis]

Wait, which two are you talking about? I get the Spanish-Portugese connection, but I'm not sure which other language you were talking about being associated with English or Spanish (Russian?)?

India has English as one of the major languages, has it not?


And which is the same to the West culturally? Once again, my first instinct is Russia, but that eliminates it in the first question. India and China both have vastly different cultures and languages- not only from the USA and Western European countries, but also within the country itself.

Your instinct is good :smalltongue:

If you ever want to travel to one of these places, I think of all BRIC countries typical westerner will feel at home mostly in Russia, then Brazil. The other two countries are exotic and alien, which can be a minus. I know, I sometimes have troubles adapting in the state with minute cultural differences (UK/Poland) :P


Your advice is sound, though. It is one reason I recommended Chinese. As business languages go, English and Japanese were still at the top if I remember correctly, with German being important and Arabic greatly growing. The BRIC nations may be coming in to play much more, but the language of business will probably take a bit to change.

The thing is, Japanese is, IIRC, virtually impossible to learn well for someone who is used to our alphabet, Chinese less so, but the difficulties are also huge. German is good, but most of them can speak English. Arabic... well, they also speak English/French, and sadly, the only guaranteed job you'll find with it is intelligence agency.

Russian would be easy to learn if not for some letters of the alphabet and big number of soft sounds, but once you adapt to these, most difficulties disappear. You'd be surprised how much words in modern Russian are copied verbatim from French/English.


And this is why a world wide language for business, like Esperanto or something, would make life easier, lol.

Agreed :smallfrown:


I'm hoping to eventually learn Arabic. German is definitely on my list, and...well...I'm sure I'll eventually attempt Japanese or a dialect of Chinese, but I'm not sure how well I will succeed, heh. I want to be in international marketing, so I definitely need SOME language other than European dialects.

I had an excellent article outlining why Japanese is pretty much impossible to learn for westerners, especially written one, as it retained a lot of rust and illogical constructions from high court prose, making it difficult and inaccessible by design. I'll look if I still have it, though.


I've got the Romance languages covered (about 6 years of Latin all told and a year of Spanish covered that) and kind of Greek (and associated languages...I can pronounce a decent bit of Russian, etc, despite not knowing what a single word in Russian means, lol).

How about some Slavic, then? :smalltongue:

After all, it is 500 million people on 1/5 of the globe. And, everyone who doesn't understand at least one additional Slavic language there knows English, so you'd have that covered :smallwink:


EDIT: I looooove how Farsi is written and sounds. Same for Arabic. It just so beautiful to my ears, and the writing looks so fluid.

Yes, but... honestly, you can't build any sort of permanent career on it due to all the political reasons I won't delve into here.

[Marnath]

Also, high school level foreign language classes are not enough to make one fluent. In order to truly get the language under the belt, one must really take intensive college courses.

Or, you know...learn from a native speaker. For free.

[Erts]

Thanks for all the advice so fast!

Majoring: Not completely sure yet. English, history, science, business, one of the four (yes, very broad.)

I thought about the BRIC connection, but (while not trying to get too political)
1: As Irbris said, many Brazilians already speak Spanish. Still, I put Brazilian Portuguese there.
2: In India, English is very, very, common (or, at least in the areas I would probably go.)
3: In concerns with China, generally, business is about split between Cantonese (Hong Kong) and Mandarin. Also, the reason that Mandarin is the most spoken language in the world is due to the sheer size of China. Not due to it's widespread use. Finally, a lot of people speak Mandarin where I'm from.

I never liked the idea of one international language, such as Esperanto. I feel that it ignores an essential part of human society, the development of our languages. Furthermore, eventually, different dialects and accents would take place, and soon enough languages would develop again.

[CWater]

The thing is, Japanese is, IIRC, virtually impossible to learn well for someone who is used to our alphabet, Chinese less so, but the difficulties are also huge. German is good, but most of them can speak English. Arabic... well, they also speak English/French, and sadly, the only guaranteed job you'll find with it is intelligence agency.

I had an excellent article outlining why Japanese is pretty much impossible to learn for westerners, especially written one, as it retained a lot of rust and illogical constructions from high court prose, making it difficult and inaccessible by design. I'll look if I still have it, though.

I have to object to this. I study Japanese and have found it to be a fairly logical language once you get the hang of it. Of course, there is a lot of kanji to learn, but no one is expected learn all of them in one go. Besides, there are two smaller alphabets (hiragana and katakana), which only have ~40 basic letters (though you get more by combining) and you can basically write anything using them.

Of course the whole structure of the language is different than English, but it's not that hard. Then again, my opinion might be biased, since I've heard that learning Japanese would be somewhat easier for those with Finnish as their native than English, but I still doubt it'd be impossible.:smalltongue:

[13_CBS]

I have to object to this. I study Japanese and have found it to be a fairly logical language once you get the hang of it. Of course, there is a lot of kanji to learn, but no one is expected learn all of them in one go. Besides, there are two smaller alphabets (hiragana and katakana), which only have ~40 basic letters (though you get more by combining) and you can basically write anything using them.


I studied it myself and found it baffling a LOT of the time, and Kanji can get really, really weird (not just due to the sheer number of them, mind you). :smallconfused: Perhaps I had the misfortune of having poor teachers?

[Maximum Zersk]

Aren't radicals useful when learning kanji, or at least for making mnemonics?

Like how the kanji for smoke/soot is the kanji for black above the radical for fire?

But honestly, I think Japanese, while not being the most logical, is more logical than some other systems.


India has English as one of the major languages, has it not?


India has a billion major languages, I don't see why not. :smalltongue:


Or, you know...learn from a native speaker. For free.


What my German teacher said is the best course of action.

[Reinboom]

I studied it myself and found it baffling a LOT of the time, and Kanji can get really, really weird (not just due to the sheer number of them, mind you). :smallconfused: Perhaps I had the misfortune of having poor teachers?

Kanji threw me through a loop at the beginning as well, until I realized something about our language...
How do you pronounce the following symbol?:
http://th976.photobucket.com/albums/ae249/fikrinaim/th_nike_logo.gif

(A more complex symbol would probably be a better comparison, but this is the logo it clicked for me on.)

[13_CBS]

But honestly, I think Japanese, while not being the most logical, is more logical than some other systems.


The Japanese writing system? Eh...my circle of friends and I aren't exactly fans of it.


Kanji threw me through a loop at the beginning as well, until I realized something about our language...
How do you pronounce the following symbol?:
http://th976.photobucket.com/albums/ae249/fikrinaim/th_nike_logo.gif

Either "Nike" (company logo) or :smallconfused: since it's not part of our alphabet.

I'm afraid I'm missing your point, however. :smallconfused:

[Irbis]

I have to object to this. I study Japanese and have found it to be a fairly logical language once you get the hang of it. Of course, there is a lot of kanji to learn, but no one is expected learn all of them in one go. Besides, there are two smaller alphabets (hiragana and katakana), which only have ~40 basic letters (though you get more by combining) and you can basically write anything using them.

Of course the whole structure of the language is different than English, but it's not that hard. Then again, my opinion might be biased, since I've heard that learning Japanese would be somewhat easier for those with Finnish as their native than English, but I still doubt it'd be impossible.:smalltongue:

That's the problem. There are four writing systems to learn if you want to know the language at least on basic level. Kanji, which is indeed a few thousand characters, manages to make already complicated situation horribly complicated by using homographs - every single kanji might have multiple meanings, spoken in different way, and depending only on context. The same character might mean 'skilled, upper part, or middle part'. Then, there are compound characters, meaning when you add two unrelated words (like, 'sparrow' and 'tea') you get third one. There are no spaces, so, you have a string of characters which might mean anything they mean, or any of the compound words they make. There are thousands of exceptions.

And, most importantly, in alphabet language, when you see a new word, you can try to decipher what it means by looking for similarities with other words or by asking someone. In Japanese, if you don't know one character in long sentence, the entire sentence falls apart, becoming practically meaningless (or, rather, multiple-meaning), you can't check for any similarities, you can't even ask someone what it means because you have no idea how it is spoken, or, if you do, if you're using the correct meaning, all of which are spoken in different way, and even if you know correct pronunciation, it can be a complex word making knowledge of that one character meaningless.

There is even special term for 'unknown' characters, hapax legomena, applying to even relatively recent literary works, because the meaning of the character was forgotten and no one has any idea what it was supposed to be, making it lost for all time... while the dozens of times older alphabet texts are deciphered based on similarities/context.

See, even these 5 problems out of dozens I mentioned above make Japanese illogical, confusing, impossible to use if you don't master anything in one go - how it is supposed to be logical and easy? :smallconfused:


I never liked the idea of one international language, such as Esperanto. I feel that it ignores an essential part of human society, the development of our languages. Furthermore, eventually, different dialects and accents would take place, and soon enough languages would develop again.

Just like English/Spanish/French become divided in the last 400 years despite colonies having virtually no contact with the homeland? :smallamused:

Except, they didn't deviated that much, and honestly, in today's era, most linguists started to propose the 'end' of language change - internet melting pot and computer spell-checkers potentially stabilising the language of today for centuries to come, the only changes being simplification of pronunciation and merging of the languages with the dominant one.

[Reinboom]

Either "Nike" (company logo) or :smallconfused: since it's not part of our alphabet.

I'm afraid I'm missing your point, however. :smallconfused:

Yes, Nike. An image that is in the vague shape of a wing to represent the greek goddess Nike. The point is, you should have picked that up immediately despite it not being a letter of an alphabet.
Most kanji are the same way. Draw a river with three lines and give it a small hook? You have "gawa", the word for river. Need it to be part of a name? Put a small island in it like a river delta.

It's like a children's book where they put a picture of a bear in the place of the word "bear". The point is, is to think of it less like a letter of an alphabet and more like a concept - not difficult.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Yes, Nike. An image that is in the vague shape of a wing to represent the greek goddess Nike. The point is, you should have picked that up immediately despite it not being a letter of an alphabet.
Most kanji are the same way. Draw a river with three lines and give it a small hook? You have "gawa", the word for river. Need it to be part of a name? Put a small island in it like a river delta.

It's like a children's book where they put a picture of a bear in the place of the word "bear". The point is, is to think of it less like a letter of an alphabet and more like a concept - not difficult.

I have a whole actual adult book of this, made by the Japanese, it's called Kanji Pict-O-Graphix and it's by Michael Rowley. It's pretty darn cool.

[Syka]

I specifically mentioned Esperanto for business. Socially and culturally, language plays a huge role in development and how one views the world. I'm not advocating a global language to take over everything. Esperanto or a similar language to be used in professional settings can help smooth out some things. You would still be able to have forms that denote respect and such for cultures where power distance is important, but it would be easier to learn and world wide which would remove the need to learn 3-6 other languages on a basic basis.


Mandarin Chinese is supposed to be the most difficult language to learn followed by English. English is...well, it's a poor tortured language that doesn't make a lot of sense a lot of the time. Japanese may be somewhat difficult due to the kanji, and the fact there are two divisions of words (hirigana and katakana, if I'm not mistaken), but I can't fathom it being any worse than Chinese. And if nothing else, the spoken language is supposed to be easier and I'd likely be dealing mostly in spoken language.



As to India, that argument can also be used for much of Europe and Japan. When doing business in the culture, though, it's usually a good idea to have a workable knowledge of the language. If you watch "Brits Get Rich In China", it shows very well how knowing the language helps significantly. Not only does it show respect, but they can't really hide stuff that way.


As for Arabic, there is a possibility. Not a large one, given I am a woman and all that jazz, but the UAE especially is changing, and given how much wealth there is...I could very well end up working with someone from an Arab nation.

But then again, I also devoted my undergraduate career to Latin and Ancient Greek. I'm not known for choosing my languages on the basis of practicality. :smallwink: Also, Greek is a...female dog to learn. Wonderful to translate, sucky to learn, though.

[13_CBS]

Yes, Nike. An image that is in the vague shape of a wing to represent the greek goddess Nike. The point is, you should have picked that up immediately despite it not being a letter of an alphabet.
Most kanji are the same way. Draw a river with three lines and give it a small hook? You have "gawa", the word for river. Need it to be part of a name? Put a small island in it like a river delta.


No no no, it's not just the fact that Japanese uses a logographic writing system that makes it confusing and difficult (though I've heard that China's literacy rate is hampered by its reliance on logographic writing systems). Irbis' post above yours represents my feelings on the Japanese writing system best:


That's the problem. There are four writing systems to learn if you want to know the language at least on basic level. Kanji, which is indeed a few thousand characters, manages to make already complicated situation horribly complicated by using homographs - every single kanji might have multiple meanings, spoken in different way, and depending only on context. The same character might mean 'skilled, upper part, or middle part'. Then, there are compound characters, meaning when you add two unrelated words (like, 'sparrow' and 'tea') you get third one. There are no spaces, so, you have a string of characters which might mean anything they mean, or any of the compound words they make. There are thousands of exceptions.

And, most importantly, in alphabet language, when you see a new word, you can try to decipher what it means by looking for similarities with other words or by asking someone. In Japanese, if you don't know one character in long sentence, the entire sentence falls apart, becoming practically meaningless (or, rather, multiple-meaning), you can't check for any similarities, you can't even ask someone what it means because you have no idea how it is spoken, or, if you do, if you're using the correct meaning, all of which are spoken in different way, and even if you know correct pronunciation, it can be a complex word making knowledge of that one character meaningless.

There is even special term for 'unknown' characters, hapax legomena, applying to even relatively recent literary works, because the meaning of the character was forgotten and no one has any idea what it was supposed to be, making it lost for all time... while the dozens of times older alphabet texts are deciphered based on similarities/context.

See, even these 5 problems out of dozens I mentioned above make Japanese illogical, confusing, impossible to use if you don't master anything in one go - how it is supposed to be logical and easy? :smallconfused:



The modern JApanese writing system has the same problem English's writing system does: it insists on using a system not designed for the language. Chinese logographic script was not exactly designed for Japanese in the same way that the Latin alphabet was not exactly designed for English. The hoops that English and Japanese try to jump through to force those systems to work help make the writing system be more confusing than strictly necessary (though in the case of English, sound changes and regional dialects have contributed as well).

On topic: @ Erts--so you're interested in English, history, science, and business? For the first three, just knowing English should be enough (especially for the first :smalltongue:), while for business, as others have said, you can't go wrong with Mandarin/Cantonese Chinese, Japanese, and the Romance languages. For purely practical purposes, stuff like Farsi, Turkish, and Arabic may be less useful unless you're planning on conducting business and/or politics in the area.

[Syka]

If doing just a typical history major (focus on the West), German and French are good options, as well. If you plan to graduate studies, it'll likely be required.

[13_CBS]

If doing just a typical history major (focus on the West), German and French are good options, as well. If you plan to graduate studies, it'll likely be required.

Syka brings up a good point: what sort of history are you interested in, Erts?

[Irbis]

I specifically mentioned Esperanto for business. Socially and culturally, language plays a huge role in development and how one views the world. I'm not advocating a global language to take over everything. Esperanto or a similar language to be used in professional settings can help smooth out some things. You would still be able to have forms that denote respect and such for cultures where power distance is important, but it would be easier to learn and world wide which would remove the need to learn 3-6 other languages on a basic basis.

Actually, there are already proposals to make Esperanto 'basic' language of the European Union - because you have 26 languages, developing all possible combinations of programs translating from one to other would be horribly expensive and impractical, so the proposed solution is to make 26 translators to/from Esperanto, which would be quick, cheap, would easily preserve meanings in translation (as Esperanto is very logical, difficult to confuse language).

I don't know if that had been worked on besides being a proposition.

And, from this thread, it seems that people speaking against one universal language seem to be a part of a major language group, and never had to learn any languages just to function in the modern world, treating their other languages as hobby.

Ech, try to think like someone who doesn't have your native knowledge of a major language which forces them to work to communicate, and you'll see why a simple, global language instead of complicated messes we have today would be a godsend. Development shmovelopment, my [...].

That's why I like Polish, BTW - there are practically zero grammar and orthographic exceptions, everything is written exactly as it is spoken*, everything, genders, tenses, etc is clear - and yet, having perfect fluency in it is of no advantage at all in today world :smallmad:

*ok, maybe there are a few exceptions to these rules, but they're so small in number you can spend weeks without encountering them.


Mandarin Chinese is supposed to be the most difficult language to learn followed by English.

Yeah :smallsigh:


Japanese may be somewhat difficult due to the kanji, and the fact there are two divisions of words (hirigana and katakana, if I'm not mistaken), but I can't fathom it being any worse than Chinese.

Four different writing systems, and you need all of them to normally function. You can get by with two, but then, you can't read 1/3 of stuff you (typically) see each day.

And, in some respects, it is far more difficult than Chinese. I'd rate both about the same.


And if nothing else, the spoken language is supposed to be easier and I'd likely be dealing mostly in spoken language.

Spoken? Maybe. If you want to do any business/research, though, you need to know written one, and not just basic, but business/science language, perfectly.


As for Arabic, there is a possibility. Not a large one, given I am a woman and all that jazz, but the UAE especially is changing, and given how much wealth there is...I could very well end up working with someone from an Arab nation.

Don't they keep all their money in Western funds, though? :smallconfused:

With the recent bankruptcy of Dubai, and considering how hard the crisis and oil price drops hit them, I don't think it'll be likely outside a few spots anytime soon.

Plus, living there has a lot of downsides, IMHO.

[Haruki-kun]

And, from this thread, it seems that people speaking against one universal language seem to be a part of a major language group, and never had to learn any languages just to function in the modern world, treating their other languages as hobby.

Personally, I'm somewhat in the middle. I don't dislike the idea of a Universal language, but that I'm fine with English being the closest thing there is to it. After all, I wouldn't have learned English otherwise. And I actually LIKE English.


Mandarin Chinese is supposed to be the most difficult language to learn followed by English. English is...well, it's a poor tortured language that doesn't make a lot of sense a lot of the time.

I didn't find English THAT difficult. Easy compared to French or German, for example. In my experience, that is. If anyone actually went through learning those fully (as opposed to just taking them in high school), by all means, correct me.

[Syka]

Edit: Misunderstood the post. Under the influence of Accounting. Should not be posting. :smallwink:

The biggest issue for fluency, though, is your native tongue. Asian and English have a hard time together. The mouth just moves in a different way. Romance to English languages have an easier time, etc. If you look at studies of adult fluency, the most fluent adult learners were those who learned a language closest to their own. For example, native Spanish speakers did fairly well becoming fluent at English compared to native Chinese speakers. I don't remember the study off hand, since I saw it about 2.5 years ago, but it should be easy to find.



All I know is that I get hired by a company that mainly deals in Western Europe. I know that language base and should be able to do fairly well, heh. I'm not the best with languages despite my desire to learn them. :smallsmile: One of my professors actually lived and worked in Japan for some time, and I think he never became fluent. He could speak it and read and all, but I don't think the fluency was there.

[Haruki-kun]

*snip*

Oh, I see... yes, that's true. I know lots of people who can hold a fluent conversation in English and understand perfectly well. But they won't pass for a native speaker. So yes, I suppose you make a good point.

[Reinboom]

The modern JApanese writing system has the same problem English's writing system does: it insists on using a system not designed for the language. Chinese logographic script was not exactly designed for Japanese in the same way that the Latin alphabet was not exactly designed for English. The hoops that English and Japanese try to jump through to force those systems to work help make the writing system be more confusing than strictly necessary (though in the case of English, sound changes and regional dialects have contributed as well).

Except the described problem isn't... really a problem that exists? Also, the argument given by Irbis is exploded beyond what the truth is. There isn't a "few thousand" in active use characters with Kanji. There shouldn't be a situation where you need to read the older unused characters, or the character's only come up as a part of a name.
When these situations come up, it's not that difficult to figure out by context what the intent is.

Further, there are methods of describing what a kanji appears like. Strokes, radicals, and similarities. When you don't understand a kanji, you count the strokes, look at the radicals, refer to a kanji dictionary which usually separates by these two facts and that is coupled with a list of words that the kanji is used in.

On the having multiple meanings: Give me a concrete definition of the word "concrete". Kanji share meaning with each other based on comparison in much the same fashion as anything else.

edit:
Hiragana/Katakana: Upper case and lower case, except the rule isn't about "proper nouns" or "beginning of the sentence", but instead "foreign words".

[13_CBS]

Except the described problem isn't... really a problem that exists? Also, the argument given by Irbis is exploded beyond what the truth is. There isn't a "few thousand" in active use characters with Kanji. There shouldn't be a situation where you need to read the older unused characters, or the character's only come up as a part of a name.
When these situations come up, it's not that difficult to figure out by context what the intent is.

Further, there are methods of describing what a kanji appears like. Strokes, radicals, and similarities. When you don't understand a kanji, you count the strokes, look at the radicals, refer to a kanji dictionary which usually separates by these two facts and that is coupled with a list of words that the kanji is used in.

On the having multiple meanings: Give me a concrete definition of the word "concrete". Kanji share meaning with each other based on comparison in much the same fashion as anything else.


I say that "Kanji can get really weird" since Onyomi and Kunyomi get involved in the Kanji readings. The rule of thumb they try to tell you is that compound Kanji use Onyomi readings while singular characters use Kunyomi readings--馬車 ("ba" + "sha") vs 馬 ("uma") and 車 ("kuruma"), but these seem to be violated with enough frequency that the rule of thumb can feel useless or insufficient. It's one thing to have to learn ~1950 logographic characters; it's another to have to try and memorize the myriad ways in which they can be pronounced. You simply have to know that 日曜日 is pronounced "nichiyoubi" (nichi + you + bi), not "nichiyounichi" or "biyoubi" or whatever. And then there are characters that have tons of readings, like 日 and 明. :smallconfused: These onyomi/kunyomi shenanigans pop up because Japanese tries to use a writing system not designed for its language (the fact that Chinese is tonal and Japanese is not adds to the number of homophones).

An insurmountable challenge? Not by any means. But is the Japanese language written as easily as it could be? I'm not so sure.




edit:
Hiragana/Katakana: Upper case and lower case, except the rule isn't about "proper nouns" or "beginning of the sentence", but instead "foreign words".

I'm afraid I've missed your point here. :smallconfused:

[Erts]

Just like English/Spanish/French become divided in the last 400 years despite colonies having virtually no contact with the homeland? :smallamused:

:smallconfused: Except... They have. Oh, sure, they are the same language at heart, but if someone from Shakespearean English was put in the middle of Suburbia, USA, they probably wouldn't be able to communicate.



Except, they didn't deviated that much, and honestly, in today's era, most linguists started to propose the 'end' of language change - internet melting pot and computer spell-checkers potentially stabilising the language of today for centuries to come, the only changes being simplification of pronunciation and merging of the languages with the dominant one.

Fair point.


Syka brings up a good point: what sort of history are you interested in, Erts?

Generally international studies, so not specifically "history" (stupid high school oversimplifying things for it's students!)

[13_CBS]

Generally international studies, so not specifically "history" (stupid high school oversimplifying things for it's students!)

International studies...so political science? Are there any specific countries you want to study? Or, if not countries, then regions?

[Reinboom]

I say that "Kanji can get really weird" since Onyomi and Kunyomi get involved in the Kanji readings. The rule of thumb they try to tell you is that compound Kanji use Onyomi readings while singular characters use Kunyomi readings--馬車 ("ba" + "sha") vs 馬 ("uma") and 車 ("kuruma"), but these seem to be violated with enough frequency that the rule of thumb can feel useless or insufficient. It's one thing to have to learn ~1950 logographic characters; it's another to have to try and memorize the myriad ways in which they can be pronounced. You simply have to know that 日曜日 is pronounced "nichiyoubi" (nichi + you + bi), not "nichiyounichi" or "biyoubi" or whatever. And then there are characters that have tons of readings, like 日 and 明. :smallconfused: These onyomi/kunyomi shenanigans pop up because Japanese tries to use a writing system not designed for its language (the fact that Chinese is tonal and Japanese is not adds to the number of homophones).

An insurmountable challenge? Not by any means. But is the Japanese language written as easily as it could be? I'm not so sure.

I'm afraid I've missed your point here. :smallconfused:

The point isn't one I'll try to defend anymore, because I'm not sure what your point is.

Most people I've dealt with who tend to attack the Japanese language on the complexity of the writing (such as referring to four different written styles) are neglectful to the fact that it's unfair to refer to katakana and hiragana as a separate style (in much the same sense as it would be unfair to refer to English's lower case and upper case characters as separate writing styles). Further, Kanji I see generally attacked by the sheer number rather than any other problems.
(Personally, I still don't have an issue with that. Learning the multiple levels of honorifics now...)

I'm arguing in light of these.

And what you keep arguing (that Chinese characters were never meant for Japanese) it not one that I was arguing against. :smallconfused:

[13_CBS]

The point isn't one I'll try to defend anymore, because I'm not sure what your point is.

Most people I've dealt with who tend to attack the Japanese language on the complexity of the writing (such as referring to four different written styles) are neglectful to the fact that it's unfair to refer to katakana and hiragana as a separate style (in much the same sense as it would be unfair to refer to English's lower case and upper case characters as separate writing styles). Further, Kanji I see generally attacked by the sheer number rather than any other problems.

I'm arguing in light of these.

And what you keep arguing (that Chinese characters were never meant for Japanese) it not one that I was arguing against. :smallconfused:

Fair enough, I think we (or at least I :smallredface:) were speaking past each other for a while there. That, and I'm feeling a bit mentally off today. :smallconfused: Apologies for the confusion.

To be clear, my main point would be this:

The Japanese writing system is unnecessarily complex and bulky, not necessarily because of the number of Kanji, but because of the large and sometimes confusing number of Kanji readings. (As for the Hiragana/Katakana bit, I'm personally dubious about the necessity of the existence of both at once, though I'm also dubious about the necessity of the existence of upper case and lower case letters in English as well. Japanese might have a bulky writing system, but English isn't going to get off lightly, either. :smallannoyed:)

Any other statement I've made I'm going to have to retract on the account of "13_CBS can't think straight due to having a strange day".




( Learning the multiple levels of honorifics now...)

Ah yes, the other tricky bit about Japanese; a good chunk of the grammar you must learn alongside cultural features that may seem...unfamiliar to a lot of Westerners. :smalleek:

(Edit: I've always felt that a modified Hiragana or Katakana system (one that accounts for pitch accent) might be sufficient for most everyday functions in Japanese, but I'm no linguist so I'm uncertain as to how well this would work. Discussion with my linguist friends say that it might work quite well...)

[Mauve Shirt]

German is the best language. For me at least. :smalltongue: I found it easy to learn and like hearing it. And if you're going into business, it's excellent. Dunno about how much you'd use it with a Poli-Sci major.
I'm not enjoying Arabic at all, but I think that's mostly my professor.

[cho_j]

Or, you know...learn from a native speaker. For free.

While it WOULD be ideal, I find that as a freshman in college looking towards a major that eats up a LOT of time, it's easier and just as good to take the more intensive classes I have offered by non-native speakers (and text my chicana bff from home in as much Spanish as possible!).

[Maximum Zersk]

Here's the thing; most writing systems are illogical, save for some constructed scripts.

Arabic Scripts is the best, though. :smalltongue:

[CWater]

I second what SweetRein said.:smalltongue:



*snip*
See, even these 5 problems out of dozens I mentioned above make Japanese illogical, confusing, impossible to use if you don't master anything in one go - how it is supposed to be logical and easy? :smallconfused:
I...really dunno. The way you put it makes it sound very hard and I'm not going to say that all your points were incorrect... I suppose I just have never seen it that way.:smallredface: Perhaps the idea of learning a new a language that is not a part of your native tongue's language group is not too hard for me since I became familiar with the concept a long time ago when I first started to study English. (Though I was 8 back then so that made learning a little easier, and yes I know that that one sentence was needlessly complicated (and possibly wrong grammatically:smallamused:))

[Amiel]

So, for college, I want to take a language that makes me stand out. I have Spanish under my belt, but, well, no offense to Latin America (which is awesome) but Spanish is the most popular language in High School. So, over the summer, before I submit applications next year, I want to fulfill a language requirement.

I've thought about ASL, Russian, Farsi, Arabic, Japanese, Brazilian Portuguese, or Turkish.
Please, don't let this thread get political...
Ideas? Suggestions?

What do you mean by "a language that makes [you] stand out", mate?
I think a important question to consider when studying a language is "what would you like do once you graduate"?
Depending on your interests, requirements et al, you could probably work as a translator.

I think ASL is the most unique language in your list, and it also has - well, I wouldn't say immense but - considerable practical use as well.

I'd advise taking a language that actually isn't on your list, which would be Chinese :)

[Erts]

Just like English/Spanish/French become divided in the last 400 years despite colonies having virtually no contact with the homeland? :smallamused:

Except, they didn't deviated that much, and honestly, in today's era, most linguists started to propose the 'end' of language change - internet melting pot and computer spell-checkers potentially stabilising the language of today for centuries to come, the only changes being simplification of pronunciation and merging of the languages with the dominant one.



:smallconfused: Except they have. :smalltongue: Oh, sure, at heart, they are the same language, but if you put anyone from Shakesperean England in the middle of Suburbia, USA, (even worse in Urban Center, USA) they are going to have immense difficulties understanding each other.



Fair, interesting point. Still, 5 years ago, internet slang wasn't as prevalent in word correction programs as before.

Still, languages seem to be an essential part of culture. The idea of one language... It makes e feel like we would lose a part of humanity.


Syka brings up a good point: what sort of history are you interested in, Erts?

Well, to be honest, more international studies, in culture, to government, to business (state Geography Bee finalist, woot!). So not specifically any "history" per say (stupid high school departments oversimplifying things!)


Thanks again for everyone! I'm leaning towards Russian, it seems like an interesting language that sounds cool to listen too.
Still, more advice is appreciated.

[Syka]

Is that like Poli Sci or International Business? If you plan to work with Slavic nations, Russian would be good. However, if you don't know where you'd like to work, Chinese is probably the better option.


Also, I'll reiterate that I don't want a general global language. Language is such a huge part of culture and shapes how people view the world (I'm currently reading an article about how Japanese affects Japanese literature due to POV and such). I'm advocating a global language for professional situations. Business, medicine, politics, etc. It would come in handy, lessen the likelihood of mistranslation (interpreters have one of the highest stress jobs, and IIRC have a fairly high suicide rate, particularly political interpreters), and generally make life easier.

I'm not advocating a global language replacing current languages. I'm advocating it supplementing current languages.

[Erts]

Just like English/Spanish/French become divided in the last 400 years despite colonies having virtually no contact with the homeland? :smallamused:


(Sorry, forgot to write my response coherently...
:smallconfused: Except that they have? :smalltongue: If you took someone from Shakesperean England and put them in Urban America, it would be very difficult for people to understand each other. Granted, Shakespeare's unusual sentence structure, but even a person from the time who spoke normally would be extremely hard to understand. They are the same language at root, but not easily understood between each other.



It would come in handy, lessen the likelihood of mistranslation (interpreters have one of the highest stress jobs, and IIRC have a fairly high suicide rate, particularly political interpreters), and generally make life easier.

I'm not advocating a global language replacing current languages. I'm advocating it supplementing current languages.

Yes, and I understand your point. I just was saying why I don't like the idea of a truly global language.
Also, won't one need a series of langagues? Because Esperanto is easier to learn if one is a native Western Language Speaker then an Eastern one.

[Nameless]

Norwegian! Then you can communicate with our fellow Vikings from the motherland!

...

What?

[13_CBS]

Thanks again for everyone! I'm leaning towards Russian, it seems like an interesting language that sounds cool to listen too.
Still, more advice is appreciated.

I must warn you that Russian grammar can get a bit difficult--or at least, that's what a friend of mine says after having taken 4 college semesters of Russian.

Also, as Syka said, is there any particular region that you want to study for international relations?

[The Unborne]

Ah Russian, I don't think I can express my love for the language quite like Mikhail Lomonosov:


Charles the Fifth, Emperor of the Romans, used to say that one must talk Spanish to his God, French to his friends, German to his enemies, Italian to ladies. Had he known Russian, he certainly would have added that it can be spoken to all of them; for he would have found in it the splendor of Spanish, the vivacity of French, the strength of German, the tenderness of Italian, and besides all this, the richness and powerful conciseness of Greek and Latin.

Granted, Russian does have a steep learning curve (my professor basically said you'd need an extra year of it compared to French or German) and some will say it is one of the most difficult languages (found a lot of Chinese and Arabic language students complain about its rules); however, their literature and culture that won me over. You won't find many cultures out there like the Russians where literature takes up a good portion of the common man's ideology. Heck, I heard that a crowd of concert-goers going crazy because their band dedicated a song to Pushkin, something you won't see many average Americans doing for Walt Whitman.

We can all relax though. English can be one of the craziest after all. Any non-linguist care to explain why "children" is the plural form of "child"? :smalltongue:

[UN Spacy]

As a Frenchman, I vouch for learning French.

Trust me, almost everyone in Spain speaks French.

LIES ALL LIES

[Cahokia]

We can all relax though. English can be one of the craziest after all. Any non-linguist care to explain why "children" is the plural form of "child"? :smalltongue:

Children comes from the Proto-Germanic Kiltham (from etymonline.com). It also makes me think of the Dutch plural ending. Isn't it -en?

[CurlyKitGirl]

We can all relax though. English can be one of the craziest after all. Any non-linguist care to explain why "children" is the plural form of "child"? :smalltongue:


Children comes from the Proto-Germanic Kiltham (from etymonline.com). It also makes me think of the Dutch plural ending. Isn't it -en?

Pretty much.
It comes into Old English as cild.
'c' in Old English can be pronounced either 'ch' (as in child) or 'k' (as in king (from the Old English cyning (pronounce: kerning)).
So 'child'.
Its gender is neuter.
Old English was inflected for case, gender and number.
We therefore want the plural form which is inflected for neuter.

So:
Nominative case (subiect of a sentence): cildu
Genetive case (possessive's): cilda
Accusative case (object of a sentence): cildum
Dative case (indirect obiect " " "): cildu

However!
Nouns can also be inflected differently depending on whether they're weak or strong (basically, the context of the sentence decides this).
Strong plural:
Nom: cild_
Gen: cildra
Dat: cildum
Acc: cild_

Weak plural:
Nom: cildan
Gen: cildra
Dat: cildum
Acc: cildan

So it's probably descended from the weak plural endings of the Old English noun cild.
Rule of thumb: if it ends -en it's going to be the same as what happened here. Eyen, oxen and so on.
Mostly we followed the French inflection system after the Norman Conquest.

[Cahokia]

My word. I bow before a superior etymologist. That was beautifully done.

[Marnath]

While it WOULD be ideal, I find that as a freshman in college looking towards a major that eats up a LOT of time, it's easier and just as good to take the more intensive classes I have offered by non-native speakers (and text my chicana bff from home in as much Spanish as possible!).

There's a huge gulf between "It's easier/more convenient to learn from a college course" and " To learn a language, you MUST take a college course" which is what my post was in response to.

[CurlyKitGirl]

My word. I bow before a superior etymologist. That was beautifully done.

I'm studying Old English as part of my degree, so I have homemade posters for nouns containing all their inflections for the things I've listed - instrumental's so rare there's no point.
I also have posters for pronouns, basic verb coniugation (but not all, there's seven types of strong verbs, and then three of weak verbs), and I really should get around to making my adiectives one.
And I have a magic cheat sheet.

And the same for Old Norse.

[The Unborne]

Da, that's pretty much the point. An average person who uses language strictly as a tool for work and communication instead of looking at it objectively from a linguistic/etymological lens would never bring up the comparison. Though this gets me interested...

@CurlyKitGirl Very informative post; however, it leaves me with a few questions: is there a stress-shift in the weak and strong inflections? Not only are we looking at the mutation of "child" into "children" but the stress change; also, I didn't see any account for the addition of the consonant "r". Was it merely an amalgamation of the nominative and genitive case or could it be due to natural flow (though with the absence of 'r' in the strong nominative plural I wouldn't see a necessity for it)?

Back on topic:

I see how French would be very helpful for an English major, but how would any of you weigh it against German?

[UN Spacy]

Da, that's pretty much the point. An average person who uses language strictly as a tool for work and communication instead of looking at it objectively from a linguistic/etymological lens would never bring up the comparison. Though this gets me interested...

@CurlyKitGirl Very informative post; however, it leaves me with a few questions: is there a stress-shift in the weak and strong inflections? Not only are we looking at the mutation of "child" into "children" but the stress change; also, I didn't see any account for the addition of the consonant "r". Was it merely an amalgamation of the nominative and genitive case or could it be due to natural flow (though with the absence of 'r' in the strong nominative plural I wouldn't see a necessity for it)?

Back on topic:

I see how French would be very helpful for an English major, but how would any of you weigh it against German?


Well, French was the diplomatic language of Europe for centuries, and it's still widely spoken to this day, behind only English and Spanish I believe (or could be in front of Spanish; the statistics elude me). As someone who grew up speaking both English and French I can't really say if it'll be difficult, as that varies from person to person.

As for German, I never took it so I'm not sure of the difficulty of using it. Certainly it's useful in Germanic countries and certain regions of Germany's neighbors, and I personally like the sound of the language.

Ultimately, on which to take, it depends on how useful you'll think it will be and how interested you are in either culture. Or you could take both if you're particularly adept at learning new languages.

[Haruki-kun]

Well, French was the diplomatic language of Europe for centuries, and it's still widely spoken to this day, behind only English and Spanish I believe (or could be in front of Spanish; the statistics elude me).

If you don't mind Wikipedia as a source. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_spoken_languages)

By native speakers, Spanish is the second most spoken language in the world.

Though I suppose by actual speakers it's harder to tell.

EDIT: Oh, wait, yes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers) Spanish is third.

EDIT 2: GAH! This is hard to read. >.<

[CurlyKitGirl]

@CurlyKitGirl Very informative post; however, it leaves me with a few questions: is there a stress-shift in the weak and strong inflections? Not only are we looking at the mutation of "child" into "children" but the stress change; also, I didn't see any account for the addition of the consonant "r". Was it merely an amalgamation of the nominative and genitive case or could it be due to natural flow (though with the absence of 'r' in the strong nominative plural I wouldn't see a necessity for it)?

A noun (or adiective) is declared strong or weak based on whether it can stand alone or not in the sentence.
It's very hard to tell whether there's a stress-shift in weak/strong inflections in Old English as a lot of the surviving writings are in alliterative verse (and there are five or six different stress patterns for each half line), or in prose which is semi-alliterative and slightly imitates or mimics the poetic alliterative verse style in order to make it more memorable.
However, there isn't really a stress-shift between strong/weak nouns or adiectives. They iust help to show what belongs to which part of the sentence.
I wasn't entirely sure whether cildra and cildan became amalgamated or not, but certainly I think it's safe to say that most forms of nouns and adiectives would descend to us in the nominative form, or the genetive, so it's not far-fetched to say it's an amalgamation.
Probably it came from the nominative and became *childran (*=theoretical/reconstructed form), and given the great vowel shift during the C14th the vowel ended up shifting. I forget the word, long night.


Back on topic:

I see how French would be very helpful for an English major, but how would any of you weigh it against German?

Honestly, speaking as a Britlander doing an English degree (so maioring in English for you Troglanders) they're both very important.
French moreso if you do not intend to take any courses on literature pre-1066 as the sheer influx of Norman French (as opposed to Parisian French) means that someone with a good background in French would be pretty well set.
If you want to take courses on pre-1066 literature (or in fact, literature up to about 1200 - still a fairly strong Germanic hang over) then knowing some German would be of help.
For the inflections if nothing else. But Latin also helps when it comes to dealing with the free word structure and all the inflected forms.
Before I started uni I had ten years of French (only five properly seriously) and two years of German, plus whatever very small smatterings of Latin I'd self-taught myself. They're both pretty useful to be honest.

However , if push came to shove and you could only do one or the other . . . French.
Much of the current sentence structure of English is based on French (but with almost no inflections) with the exception of our verbs.
A lot of our verbs have Germanic origins, or are at least coniugated according to originally Germanic rules.
But given that there's more written post-1066 plump for French.

[Lhurgyof]

So, for college, I want to take a language that makes me stand out. I have Spanish under my belt, but, well, no offense to Latin America (which is awesome) but Spanish is the most popular language in High School. So, over the summer, before I submit applications next year, I want to fulfill a language requirement.

I've thought about ASL, Russian, Farsi, Arabic, Japanese, Brazilian Portuguese, or Turkish.
Please, don't let this thread get political...
Ideas? Suggestions?

Estonian? It's exotic and awesome.

[Amiel]

Estonian? It's exotic and awesome.

My advice would be to also think about the practicality of the language you're learning, especially if it's your major :). Otherwise, you may find that you've "wasted all those years in college".

[GolemsVoice]

As for German, I never took it so I'm not sure of the difficulty of using it. Certainly it's useful in Germanic countries and certain regions of Germany's neighbors, and I personally like the sound of the language.

Speaking as a German, I didn't find it very hard to learn, but then again, I had many native speakers as teachers :smallbiggrin:

French is still the main diplomatic language of the EU, with English following behind, Spanish tagging along, and German constantly trying to be recognized. Or the French are at least a very major part of the EU, and here in Germany, French is almost required for anything having to do with Europe.

I'm currently learning Russian, though, and I like it very much, both the language and the culture associated with it, but I'm not very far so far, so I can't yet warn of the tricky parts.

So, my advice: French, German or Russian. All three will grant you access to important political and economical countries.

But Chinese and japanese would also be nice, if somewhat harder still, I'd reckon.

[Quincunx]

Erts, can you specialize in regional Spanish without making it look like you're a native speaker capitalizing on being raised bilingual? That would be enough to lift you above the crowd if you wrote 'literary Spanish' or 'perfecting a Central American accent' or somesuch.


Kanji threw me through a loop at the beginning as well, until I realized something about our language...
How do you pronounce the following symbol?:
http://th976.photobucket.com/albums/ae249/fikrinaim/th_nike_logo.gif

(A more complex symbol would probably be a better comparison, but this is the logo it clicked for me on.)

I don't. That symbol does not correspond to any sound I make. Symbol equals "Nike"; "Nike" equals the sound of the name; the symbol does not equal the sound of the name.

(You will probably object that the distinction is making my life unnecessarily difficult. Believe me, I'm aware of that! I can't speak the phoneme 'ö'. Therefore any word with 'ö' in it I can write but cannot speak, and the sounds of 'ö' and its words do not correspond with the symbols used to write them, and if you introduce yourself to me with a name with 'ö' in it, I will forever file you in the bin of "people whose names I wish I knew". :smallsigh:)

An excellent example for people who treat the spoken and written languages as one, though.

[GolemsVoice]

Ö, Ä and Ü are all wonderful signs, and so is the ß. But those nordic people are crazy with their letters, crazy!

[pffh]

Ö, Ä and Ü are all wonderful signs, and so is the ß. But those nordic people are crazy with their letters, crazy!

Whát áré ýóú tálkíng áböút? But those aren't the fun letters to hear foreigners try to pronounce without having heard them pronounced Ð(ð) and Þ(þ) are the fun ones.

OT: IF you want to REALLY stand out Icelandic is a rare choice since it's only spoken by just over 300k people. :smalltongue:

[Kastanok]

But those aren't the fun letters to hear foreigners try to pronounce without having heard them pronounced Ð(ð) and Þ(þ) are the fun ones.

It certainly makes trying to read Beowulf fun. I can always remember þ is 'th' because I recognise it as 'the thorn', but ð usually escapes me.

Having spent a lot of time with Assassin's Creed 2 (set in Renaissance Italy), I'm considering looking in to Italian. I'm picking up a lot just from the Italian phrases used in the game and the novelisation: greeting phrases and building names are particularly easy, I've found. Any thoughts on learning Italian, playgrounders?

[UN Spacy]

Ö, Ä and Ü are all wonderful signs, and so is the ß. But those nordic people are crazy with their letters, crazy!

Ah yes, those luny Scandinavians...I distinctly remember asking my Finnish friend to speak at least a paragraph of her language, and see if I could comprehend anything.

Any of you watch Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones? Remember that old Genosian that talks to Count Dooku and also speaks at the coloseeum in that strange language? Yeah, kinda reminded me of him. I heard a lot of clicking and a lack of vowels (or vowels as I comprehend them). Sounded cool, wish I could stay in Finland and at least try to learn Finnish >_>


Any thoughts on learning Italian, playgrounders?

I love Italian food, culture, and the nation in general, having visited there many times. The language is also very nice. As for difficulty? Not too different from my native French, so doesn't sound too hard, at least not to me.

[Erts]

Erts, can you specialize in regional Spanish without making it look like you're a native speaker capitalizing on being raised bilingual? That would be enough to lift you above the crowd if you wrote 'literary Spanish' or 'perfecting a Central American accent' or somesuch.


True, and according to a native speaker I sound like I'm from Mexico. Then again, I think that that would seem less impressive, rather, I'm just capitalizing on speaking Spanish and trying to seem more impressive.
Also, I speak Spanish well enough to get by in Spain. For practicality's sake, I want to learn another language.

[CWater]

Ö, Ä and Ü are all wonderful signs, and so is the ß. But those nordic people are crazy with their letters, crazy!

Don't forget Å! It's a nice letter!
We don't use it in Finnish though.:smalltongue:


Ah yes, those luny Scandinavians...I distinctly remember asking my Finnish friend to speak at least a paragraph of her language, and see if I could comprehend anything.

Any of you watch Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones? Remember that old Genosian that talks to Count Dooku and also speaks at the coloseeum in that strange language? Yeah, kinda reminded me of him. I heard a lot of clicking and a lack of vowels (or vowels as I comprehend them). Sounded cool, wish I could stay in Finland and at least try to learn Finnish >_>

Lack of vowels??:smallconfused::smallconfused: Well, I must honestly say that's a comment I've never heard of Finnish before... considering the language is all infested with vowels... But oh well, it's always nice to hear new opinions:smallamused:

[Amiel]

Ö, Ä and Ü are all wonderful signs, and so is the ß. But those nordic people are crazy with their letters, crazy!

Ah, umlauts and scharfes S, German was a fun language to learn. I still retain a conversational grasp of both German and Italian; pretty good considering I learned Italian in primary school and German in high school.


I also really like this http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e2/MilkyWayGlyph01.png/55px-MilkyWayGlyph01.png letter

[KuReshtin]

Ah yes, those luny Scandinavians...I distinctly remember asking my Finnish friend to speak at least a paragraph of her language, and see if I could comprehend anything.

Any of you watch Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones? Remember that old Genosian that talks to Count Dooku and also speaks at the coloseeum in that strange language? Yeah, kinda reminded me of him. I heard a lot of clicking and a lack of vowels (or vowels as I comprehend them). Sounded cool, wish I could stay in Finland and at least try to learn Finnish >_>



Finnish is completely differnt from any of the other Scandinavian languages. I'd say that it'd be fairly easy to pronounce a written word in Finnish, though, as you are meant to vocalise every single letter in the word.

And, if you have a word with a double letter spelling (two of the same letter after the other) you just prolong the sound a bit.

I like the Å, Ä and Ö letters. Especially since people in English speaking countries tend to use them as replacements for A or O to 'look cool' when writing names and/or online handles.

Also, it's fun to ask for products at IKEA here in Scotland, since I pronounce the names in Swedish, and they usually don't have a clue what I'm talking about. Their eyes tend to just glaze over for a few seconds before they ask what i'm talking about. :smallbiggrin:

[ForzaFiori]

Having spent a lot of time with Assassin's Creed 2 (set in Renaissance Italy), I'm considering looking in to Italian. I'm picking up a lot just from the Italian phrases used in the game and the novelisation: greeting phrases and building names are particularly easy, I've found. Any thoughts on learning Italian, playgrounders?

I'm taking Italian right now actually, and it's about as difficult as Spanish, but not as hard as French. At least, to me anyway, and i'm only in 101. I love it so far though. It sounds so much better than Spanish and French, doesn't have letters like ñ, or ll, and typically only uses the accents grave and acute, as opposed to the 7 million in French.

[Morty]

That's why I like Polish, BTW - there are practically zero grammar and orthographic exceptions, everything is written exactly as it is spoken*, everything, genders, tenses, etc is clear - and yet, having perfect fluency in it is of no advantage at all in today world :smallmad:


I'm actually pretty sure Polish would be a hell to learn for most foreigners. If only because while they might not be many exceptions, there's just so many ways you can conjugate verbs and nouns.

[SaintRidley]

It certainly makes trying to read Beowulf fun. I can always remember þ is 'th' because I recognise it as 'the thorn', but ð usually escapes me.


It's the other 'th' sound, as in width. Basically, vibrate your vocal cords when making the sound you make when you read þ.

Now give it a try with Oðin.

[Eloel]

It's the other 'th' sound, as in width. Basically, vibrate your vocal cords when making the sound you make when you read þ.

Now give it a try with Oðin.

So, basically, þor and Oðin sum those 2 letters?

[SaintRidley]

Basically (though it's Þórr in the Old Norse). And Oðinn (also the Old Norse spelling).

Those are probably the two best examples of those two letters for pronunciation purposes, in my view.

A note on the sound each represents:

"Among the more than 60 languages with over 10 million speakers, only English, Standard Arabic, Castilian Spanish (i.e., as spoken in Spain only), Burmese, and Greek have the voiceless dental fricative [as in Þórr].

"Most of mainland Europe lacks the sound [as in Oðinn]; however, the "periphery" languages of Welsh, Elfdalian, English, Danish, Arabic, some Italian dialects, Greek, and Albanian have this phoneme in their consonant inventories.[citation needed]

Within Turkic languages, Bashkir and Turkmen [include this sound]."


Also, both symbols are based off old runes and were kept in the adaptation of the Latin alphabet the Anglo-Saxons made. I wish they had stayed in the alphabet.

[CWater]

Finnish is completely differnt from any of the other Scandinavian languages. I'd say that it'd be fairly easy to pronounce a written word in Finnish, though, as you are meant to vocalise every single letter in the word.

Yesss, true. You just need to know which letter stands for which sound and be able to pronounce them correctly or at least understandably.:smallamused:

I just recently discovered how hard it was to try to teach a few transfer student friends to pronounce the Finnish "y" properly. (It's always a vowel by the way.) I had no idea it could be that difficult sound...:smalleek:

And then they made me try to say a few words in Urdu and I sucked even more!:smallbiggrin: 'T was a lot of fun though..

[pffh]

Basically (though it's Þórr in the Old Norse). And Oðinn (also the Old Norse spelling).

Those are probably the two best examples of those two letters for pronunciation purposes, in my view.

A note on the sound each represents:

"Among the more than 60 languages with over 10 million speakers, only English, Standard Arabic, Castilian Spanish (i.e., as spoken in Spain only), Burmese, and Greek have the voiceless dental fricative [as in Þórr].

"Most of mainland Europe lacks the sound [as in Oðinn]; however, the "periphery" languages of Welsh, Elfdalian, English, Danish, Arabic, some Italian dialects, Greek, and Albanian have this phoneme in their consonant inventories.[citation needed]

Within Turkic languages, Bashkir and Turkmen [include this sound]."


Also, both symbols are based off old runes and were kept in the adaptation of the Latin alphabet the Anglo-Saxons made. I wish they had stayed in the alphabet.

Huh interesting. Any idea what languages (other then icelandic) include both?
And you were very close with the gods but it's Þór and Óðinn. :smallwink:

[SaintRidley]

Well, English used to have both in the alphabet and still includes both phonetic values.

Arabic has the phonetic values, but not the letters.

Icelandic, as you noted has both the letters and the phonetic values.

And I can't seem to find any others without an exhaustive search through many less-spoken languages.

Also, thanks on the corrections.

[Cahokia]

I'm taking Italian right now actually, and it's about as difficult as Spanish, but not as hard as French. At least, to me anyway, and i'm only in 101. I love it so far though. It sounds so much better than Spanish and French, doesn't have letters like ñ, or ll, and typically only uses the accents grave and acute, as opposed to the 7 million in French.

Accent grave, accent aigu, accent circonflexe, cédille? That's not even 7, much less 7 million. As for its beauty, I suppose different ears prefer different languages.

[Xuc Xac]

If you think French has a lot of accent marks, you should try Vietnamese. Not only does the alphabet include special letters (ă, â, đ, ê, ô, ơ, ư), but there are also five accent marks for the tones. For example, má, mà, mã, mạ, mả. It's not unusual to have a three letter word with three accent marks on it, like "đặc".

[Asta Kask]

Well, it depends. If you want to a Wizard or Sorcerer, I recommend Draconian. For a Cleric, Abyssal, Infernal or Celestial are probably better. Otherwise I'd say go with Elvish - chicks loooove Elvish.

[Cahokia]

If you think French has a lot of accent marks, you should try Vietnamese. Not only does the alphabet include special letters (ă, â, đ, ê, ô, ơ, ư), but there are also five accent marks for the tones. For example, má, mà, mã, mạ, mả. It's not unusual to have a three letter word with three accent marks on it, like "đặc".

:smalleek: So many accent marks. My brain hurts...

[Eloel]

:smalleek: So many accent marks. My brain hurts...

I got used to reading everything without the accents, mainly due to the 'cool' (!) guys who type everything with accented characters to be different. That makes my skills at learning accented languages pathetic, hence a couple years of failure at French lessons in school.