[3.5] ToB: Let maneuvers be ranged?

[WhiteShark]

Would it be too powerful if maneuvers/boosts specific to melee (which is nearly all of them) could be used with ranged attacks by default?

Alternatively, would it be too powerful if I homebrewed a class that could do this as a class ability?

There are a couple ranged specific homebrew disciplines floating around, like The Demented One's Black Rain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5471518) and Fax Celestis' Falling Star (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10707) but it seems a pity that we have to homebrew just to use maneuvers at range. What do you guys think?

There's also a stance in Black Rain that lets you do this, but it's 8th level making it hard to be a low level ranged initiator.

[Yuki Akuma]

There is a class that can do this as a class ability. It's called Bloodstorm Blade.

[WhiteShark]

I should have been more specific, I'm not talking about throwing things. I'm talking about using bows/crossbows/firearms/etc. to perform maneuvers at a distance.

[Endarire]

Considering spells are still usually loads better, I see no balance problems. Ensure everyone knows ahead of time, however.

[WhiteShark]

Well, yeah, spells are always gonna be better. I guess I meant internal ToB balance. Will a ranged initiator vastly outclass a melee one given that they can use all the same disciplines?

[AslanCross]

Well, yeah, spells are always gonna be better. I guess I meant internal ToB balance. Will a ranged initiator vastly outclass a melee one given that they can use all the same disciplines?

If it can use the melee ones with its ranged attacks, it pretty much makes the Bloodstorm Blade useless, because that was the point of the class.

[WhiteShark]

I suppose that's true. Guess I'm gonna have to homebrew something. Playing a gunslinging initiator is seeming more and more difficult.

[Zeofar]

If it can use the melee ones with its ranged attacks, it pretty much makes the Bloodstorm Blade useless, because that was the point of the class.

I'm not seeing a single prestige class being borked as a significant loss, unless a player is already using it...

[AslanCross]

I've had someone play a gunslinging Black Rain user in one of the games I played in. (It was Lv 18). I was playing a Wizard/Silver Pyromancer and yet he was able to kill everything by pretty much blinking. I found it more than a little overpowered, especially since he was using the instant-critical, sure-hit Lv 9 maneuver every other turn. Never allowed Black Rain in future games because of that.

[kryan]

Have you seen the Black Rain (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5471505#post5471505) discipline? I should read the whole thread...

And there's also the Desert Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8887672#post8887672) (scroll down), which gets to use certain maneuvers with ranged weapons.

Personally, I feel that the restrictions on the Desert Warblade are more than they need necessarily be, and I think the Bloodstorm Blade does get some interesting abilities of its own; I wouldn't be too worried about the effects of this on Tome of Battle's balance.

[Ernir]

Yep, it would make the BsB cry a bit.

But if no one in your group had any intention of using that PrC, you could just ask your DM to rule it in on a case-by-case basis. (Some maneuvers just don't make sense when used with ranged weapons. Insightful Strike? Sure. Devastating Throw... uh, what?)

If you want a more systematic change... I'd go for the 'brew.

[WhiteShark]

And there's also the Desert Warblade (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8887672#post8887672) (scroll down), which gets to use certain maneuvers with ranged weapons.


Not exactly what I want, but it helps in figuring out how to change certain maneuvers for ranged. Thanks!


Yep, it would make the BsB cry a bit.

But if no one in your group had any intention of using that PrC, you could just ask your DM to rule it in on a case-by-case basis. (Some maneuvers just don't make sense when used with ranged weapons. Insightful Strike? Sure. Devastating Throw... uh, what?)

If you want a more systematic change... I'd go for the 'brew.

Yeah, I'm starting to think I should just homebrew a a gunslinger class. Perhaps they would have a few standard disciplines like Black Rain and a couple others with the option of trading one/two out for melee disciplines that they can use at range.

[Show]

I, as a player, would love it, but it would completely throw the balance of the classes off. They simply weren't meant to work that way. Instead of being just better than a fighter, you'd be better than a fighter, as well as better than a ranger. And able to switch between the two using only quick draw and adaptable stance!

[WhiteShark]

I, as a player, would love it, but it would completely throw the balance of the classes off. They simply weren't meant to work that way. Instead of being just better than a fighter, you'd be better than a fighter, as well as better than a ranger. And able to switch between the two using only quick draw and adaptable stance!

I think MAD would make that harder to pull off if you have to pump both Dex and Strength so that you can fill both roles. Further, being good at ranged fighting requires a fairly significant feat investment.

[Chrono22]

No, it doesn't break the game. I've done this (I'm a heavy optimizer). It might seem like it makes initiator classes more powerful, but really it just brings archers up to speed with the other combat styles.

[WhiteShark]

I've had someone play a gunslinging Black Rain user in one of the games I played in. (It was Lv 18). I was playing a Wizard/Silver Pyromancer and yet he was able to kill everything by pretty much blinking. I found it more than a little overpowered, especially since he was using the instant-critical, sure-hit Lv 9 maneuver every other turn. Never allowed Black Rain in future games because of that.

The maneuver you're talking about is good, but I don't think it's overpowered. Compare it to Inferno Blast. Not counting weapon damage, Ebon Lotus Blossom Mandala's damage adds up to 150 at most with an average of 87.5. It's also a line effect which is likely to hit far fewer opponents than a burst. Sounds balanced to me, especially considering it's a 9th level maneuver.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, that's given that the attack crits. You still have to confirm it.

[WhiteShark]

No, it doesn't break the game. I've done this (I'm a heavy optimizer). It might seem like it makes initiator classes more powerful, but really it just brings archers up to speed with the other combat styles.

You've done this? Great! What classe(s) did you use for ranged initiating? It might help me decide what to do.

[Chrono22]

I've used the ranger (as swordsage), crusader, warblade, and swordsage.

Let me explain a bit. I used a houseruled version of initiator levels: all 1-1 BAB classes advanced your initiator levels. When you took a level in a class, you selected one of the initiator advancements to advance (you didn't advance at half rate, only from advancing your "initiator level"; just like caster levels).

A built a dedicated archer using a ranger, and it greatly helped party balance- my character became a master at locking down enemy casters.

[faceroll]

If it can use the melee ones with its ranged attacks, it pretty much makes the Bloodstorm Blade useless, because that was the point of the class.

Except bloodstorm blade gets to boomerang his stuff off of multiple targets.

[Foryn Gilnith]

If it can use the melee ones with its ranged attacks, it pretty much makes the Bloodstorm Blade useless, because that was the point of the class.

I thought the point of the Bloodstorm Blade was ranged Power Attack?

[AslanCross]

The maneuver you're talking about is good, but I don't think it's overpowered. Compare it to Inferno Blast. Not counting weapon damage, Ebon Lotus Blossom Mandala's damage adds up to 150 at most with an average of 87.5. It's also a line effect which is likely to hit far fewer opponents than a burst. Sounds balanced to me, especially considering it's a 9th level maneuver.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, that's given that the attack crits. You still have to confirm it.

Inferno Blast offers a reflex save. Anyway I'm not sure what the guy put into it (I wasn't the DM and the weapon was pretty optimized as well), but it still ended up insta-killing everything it hit.

On its own it may not be overpowered, but it's far more powerful than any of the official 9th level ToB maneuvers.

[BridgeCity]

I, as a player, would love it, but it would completely throw the balance of the classes off. They simply weren't meant to work that way. Instead of being just better than a fighter, you'd be better than a fighter, as well as better than a ranger. And able to switch between the two using only quick draw and adaptable stance!

Surely any sensible DM would not allow you to use the abilities as BOTH melee and ranged. If it were me I'd say they had to, at the time they choose the ability, decide if it will be ranged or melee and it has to stay that way for the rest of the game.

[Chrono22]

^Why?
I mean, it all comes back to the same thing for me: if I can disarm someone with a longsword, why can't I disarm someone with a crossbow? Ranged combat already has numerous obstacles and hurdles for players to overcome. Cover, concealment, distance, ranged attacks provoke, you can't use ranged attacks in a grapple, most ranged weapons require two hands, firing into melee combat imparts penalties, and heavy winds or being underwater make it impossible for you to shoot. Oh, and any enemy you fight can just drop prone to gain a big ac bonus, or he can just make some low DC reflex save to snatch your arrows out of the air. Or he has an aura of fire or something that just incinerates your amunition before it can harm him. I could go on and on, but you get the gist of it.
Yeah, rapid shot is good. No, it's not a good reason for why ranged attacking characters should be gimped compared to their melee counterparts.

Obviously some maneuvers have nonsense effects when a range is applied to them. Just disregard these and you have a perfectly workable system. If it really bothers you, just have the PC attempt a spot check with a DC equal to the enemy's AC to be able to use a particular maneuver against them at range. Since distance imparts a penalty on spot checks, the likely hood a ranged PC can successfully use his maneuvers at range falls sharply off. This is compounded by the penalties imposed by distance- so on top of this, his chance of even hitting his targets is also reduced. Using these rules, a ranged PC will have a hard time spamming his maneuvers at some distant range.

[DarkEternal]

I had a similar problem as you. Being quite high in levels, casters started to do amazing stuff, while the party ranger and fighter pretty much just went and hit stuff while it died. So I homebrewed that they met a man and his wife, guardians of the temple of Mystra who were masters of the Iron Heart school and Phoenix Arrow(homebrewed) school since there are no ranged schools that are published.

Being in the mountain where the temple of Mystra was, they had certain capabilities. The mountain has a sort of a "time stop" on it, where a single day spent training within the mountain is like months on the outside(think that training chamber from Dragonball Z. Horrible example, I know, but the best one I could come up with).

The man and his wife heard about the adventurers deeds, and taught them their styles, even though they were not the necessary classes, or took the necessary feats to learn said styles as different classes.

It wasn't "by the rules", but it gave the characters a lot to do and thus I think it was good, both for flavor and for some use. Only, if you are looking for a home brewed school, look for one that is well described and balanced(or make one up yourself). The Phoenix Arrow has a few ho-hum moves but yeah...

[AslanCross]

Well guys, it's really up to you. I like the balance of ToB, and while ranged attackers are kind of pathetic, I honestly don't see this as necessary. I've never seen it necessary in my games; your experience may be different.

[kryan]

Have you had anyone play as a mundane ranged fighter, though? I mean, if not, then obviously there's no call for it. And if yes, how on earth did they keep up with the martial adepts? They generally can't even keep up with the Core-type melees...

[mangosta71]

I think MAD would make that harder to pull off if you have to pump both Dex and Strength so that you can fill both roles.
Unless you're a swordsage, in which case you don't need strength for melee anyway. Finesse and dex to damage -> str = dumpstat.

[kryan]

Using Shadow Blade forces you to stay in a Shadow Hand stance and use only Shadow Hand weapons. Also, you can't completely dump Str because Shadow Blade adds Dex, without replacing Str - so if you have 8 Str and 18 Dex, you get a +4-1=+3 because of the -1 Str modifier.

Of course, you could also have 14 Str and 18 Dex for +2+4+6 much more easily than you can get a 22 in Dex for the same +6, so there is some advantage to this.

There's also a feat called Dead Eye from Dragon Compendium (or Dragon #304) that will add Dex to ranged damage (within 30', doesn't work on crit-immune types, requires PBS and WF(any ranged weapon)).

[Ruinix]

There's also a feat called Dead Eye from Dragon Compendium (or Dragon #304) that will add Dex to ranged damage (within 30', doesn't work on crit-immune types, requires PBS and WF(any ranged weapon)).

also. check the errata for Dragon Compendium in wich lower the BAB req. from +14 to +1.


and there is a Targeteer fighter variant from a Dragon magazine, listed in cristal keep, wich add DEX to damage as STR so it apply to crit innmune and alike.

[WhiteShark]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. I talked to my DM, and he's okay with me homebrewing, so I'm working on a Gunslinger class since that's what I wanted to do in the first place. I'm using four ranged homebrew disciplines from here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7754436&postcount=348) (Black Rain, Falcon's Eye, Iron Rain, and Nightingale Feather) as well as letting the gunslinger pick one other discipline from ToB that they can use at range (with minor changes to fix things that wouldn't make sense at range). I'll probably post it on the Homebrew forum when I'm farther along.


There's also a feat called Dead Eye from Dragon Compendium (or Dragon #304) that will add Dex to ranged damage (within 30', doesn't work on crit-immune types, requires PBS and WF(any ranged weapon)).

I like the idea behind this, but it seems way too limited. I'm thinking of making a discipline feat Shadow Blade style that lets you add dex while using a Black Rain weapon (i.e., firearms).

[faceroll]

Inferno Blast offers a reflex save. Anyway I'm not sure what the guy put into it (I wasn't the DM and the weapon was pretty optimized as well), but it still ended up insta-killing everything it hit.

On its own it may not be overpowered, but it's far more powerful than any of the official 9th level ToB maneuvers.

I think the really powerful part is the auto-crit ability on weapons that have a base of x3 damage. With enough static bonuses, that could become a huge chunk of damage.

[WhiteShark]

Hmm. Perhaps I'll reduce the bonus damage on it then, maybe 20d6 instead of 25d6. There's some other things I want to change about Black Rain, too; for example, if I homebrew a Power Shot feat (ranged analogue to Power Attack), then the first stance becomes completely redundant.

[faceroll]

Hmm. Perhaps I'll reduce the bonus damage on it then, maybe 20d6 instead of 25d6. There's some other things I want to change about Black Rain, too; for example, if I homebrew a Power Shot feat (ranged analogue to Power Attack), then the first stance becomes completely redundant.

Well, what's worse, feat tax or stance tax?

[WhiteShark]

Well, I was also considering making it count as Point Blank Shot for the purposes of feat prerequisites since Point Blank Shot is terrible and dumb but you have to take it where as the melee feat trees start in... Power Attack.

[faceroll]

Well, I was also considering making it count as Point Blank Shot for the purposes of feat prerequisites since Point Blank Shot is terrible and dumb but you have to take it where as the melee feat trees start in... Power Attack.

Power attack (and the analogue for ranged combat), combat expertise, point blank shot, and weapon finesse should all be automatically granted to characters that meet the pre-requisites, and they shouldn't have pre-requisites. They're just feat taxes.

[WhiteShark]

Now that's an interesting thought, and I think I agree. I especially hate that you can't get weapon finesse at first level unless you have a +1 BAB right off the bat. So keep the prereqs as is but say that you get them automatically once you have the prerequisites?

[FMArthur]

If you make it so that ranged attacks can do all the good stuff melee attacks can do, why would you ever play melee? Solely for AoOs? Ranged weapon combat needs to be its own thing and not envelop a whole type of combat that already has problems with being outshone.

[WhiteShark]

I think it would take a more than allowing maneuvers to be used at range to make ranged better than melee. It would take a LOT more. I just want them to be on par with each other rather than having to optimize like crazy to come even close to melee with ranged.

[mangosta71]

Power attack (and the analogue for ranged combat), combat expertise, point blank shot, and weapon finesse should all be automatically granted to characters that meet the pre-requisites, and they shouldn't have pre-requisites. They're just feat taxes.

So...they should be free to all characters?

[WhiteShark]

So...they should be free to all characters?

I think that's what he's suggesting. I like the idea. I'll talk to my DM about it.

[mangosta71]

I agree with finesse being free, and Point Blank Shot doesn't do anything. Combat Expertise, I'm not so sure about. Perhaps dropping it as a requirement for all the feats behind it would be more appropriate. Or combine it with Dodge (another weak, near-useless feat that's a pre-req for higher-level, useful feats). For Power Attack, I'd drop it as a pre-req for the improved combat maneuvers and remove the +/-5 cap. If that's too powerful, don't allow it to be used in conjunction with maneuvers.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Once made a relatively all ranged swordsage using Shadowhand and desertwind.
Requires you to be slightly higher level (i think 4+ not sure though ).

Out side of those two schools though there isn't much ranged.

[Dralnu]

I'm sure I'm missing a lot of factors and I'd appreciate people filling in the gaps, but this is how I usually compare archers to (THW) melee:

Archer Pros:
- more attacks via rapid shot and manyshot (though I don't think you'd be able to use either of them when initiating a strike)
- FAR superior range, letting them hit things off in the distance as well as combat flyers

Melee Pros:
- Power Attack, one feat for loads of damage, compared to archers needing PBS and likely Precise Shot before getting their sweet damage feats
- x1.5 your STR bonus to damage even without power attack
- less need for a good DEX
- capable of becoming an ubercharger for stupid broken amounts of damage (but then who really cares about maneuvers?)

Assuming uberchargers are a non-factor in your decision making, a ToB melee would be doing more damage per strike than an equal-footing ToB archer and have less MAD. Though Rapid Shot and Manyshot become far less necessary, the archer will still probably want Precise Shot, which in total is 2 annoying feats compared to melee's single awesome feat. On the flipside, the archer has a significantly easier time hitting whatever he wants. In any well-designed campaign, this should be played up as the advantage it was intended to be.

Considering this, I would think that melee should be doing more damage than an archer. Not drastically more, but significant enough to justify the whole "I have to actually get in range to hurt things," schtick. Comparing 1 arrow to 1 swing for a strike maneuver, this damage gap is pulled off by Power Attack.

So if I were designing a ToB ranged class, I'd give it ranger BAB / HP / skills, slap on PBS and Precise Shot as freebie feats early. Make a new feat that's basically Shadow Blade but applies to ranged weapons to cut down on MAD. Warblade style maneuvers readied / known / limited schools. Give them maneuvers that closely resemble regular melee abilities as possible, unless a ranged conversion would be more powerful (some stone dragon strikes that snare you in place come to mind), then give them a nerfed version of it to make it balanced. For stuff that doesn't convert well, maybe introduce some battlefield control since he has a wider access of the battlefield. Things like ranged pin, ranged disarm. Don't make melee pointless, but play up the strength of being ranged. Giving power attack would be a big mistake imo.

Oooh, this turned into a ramble, sorry! Just my 2cents.

[WhiteShark]

That's... actually very similar to what I'm doing. I'm glad I'm not the only one to think along those lines. My idea is to make a gunslinger, but your ideas sound closer to a more traditional archer.

I think I still want a Power Shot feat since two handed weapon melee dudes still get double the benefit of Power Attack and therefore will stay ahead in damage.

[mangosta71]

Power Shot doesn't make a lot of sense to me. With PA, you swing a little harder and more recklessly to deal more damage. How do you do an equivalent attack with a ranged shot? Aiming for a smaller, more vital area is one possibility, but that would be precision damage and thus wouldn't apply to things like undead and constructs. To balance it (approximately) with a 2-handed PA you could say "you gain 1d6 damage if you take a -2 penalty to attack rolls, 2d6 if you take -4, and 3d6 if you take -5. This damage stacks with sneak attack and skirmish". If you go that route, I would suggest Called Shot as the name of the feat instead of Power Shot.

[faceroll]

I agree with finesse being free, and Point Blank Shot doesn't do anything. Combat Expertise, I'm not so sure about. Perhaps dropping it as a requirement for all the feats behind it would be more appropriate. Or combine it with Dodge (another weak, near-useless feat that's a pre-req for higher-level, useful feats). For Power Attack, I'd drop it as a pre-req for the improved combat maneuvers and remove the +/-5 cap. If that's too powerful, don't allow it to be used in conjunction with maneuvers.

I've never seen anyone use Combat Expertise, ever. It' just feat tax for being able to competently do half-way interesting attack actions.


Power Shot doesn't make a lot of sense to me. With PA, you swing a little harder and more recklessly to deal more damage. How do you do an equivalent attack with a ranged shot? Aiming for a smaller, more vital area is one possibility, but that would be precision damage and thus wouldn't apply to things like undead and constructs. To balance it (approximately) with a 2-handed PA you could say "you gain 1d6 damage if you take a -2 penalty to attack rolls, 2d6 if you take -4, and 3d6 if you take -5. This damage stacks with sneak attack and skirmish". If you go that route, I would suggest Called Shot as the name of the feat instead of Power Shot.

Hmm, yeah, I know there are fluff problems, but it was this kind of thinking that largely resulted in the huge suckage that is 3.x non-casters. If you look through 3.0 material, the attention to making non-casters be "realistic" is almost slavish.

[Grynning]

Not quite what you're looking for, but the Pathfinder Archer Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter#TOC-Archer) variant is at least a relatively competent ranged attacker.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of stances and boosts still work to help archery. Eternal Blade is a great PrC for archer characters. Eldariel lays out the basic build and some other Archer advice here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7530365&postcount=18)