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Tael
2010-11-01, 10:06 PM
Does anyone know of any ways to counter True Seeing other than the Invisible Spell trick? (Invisible Invisibility ftw!)

Or generally ways to make sure no-one sees through a magical disguise.

ericgrau
2010-11-01, 10:07 PM
Dust of disappearance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#dustofDisappearance)

The way to make a disguise that fools true seeing is to make it non-magical. Spot is a cross-class skill for clerics and wizards. Others may be a problem, but they don't even get a check unless they have a reason to be suspicious. You can use a circlet of persuasion to get a +3 to your check. Beyond that you need feats or cheese like the Marshall charisma skill boost trick.

hiryuu
2010-11-01, 10:09 PM
Mundane Hide checks? Makeup and clothes? Camo tarp?

Dr.Epic
2010-11-01, 10:10 PM
Insanely high bluff and you can implant a thought.

Reinboom
2010-11-01, 10:16 PM
Based on the answer to the following question:
By having true seeing reveal your original form before a polymorph like effect, does that include anything you were wearing with that form before you polymorph?

If yes:
Wear a costume of a whatever you wish to appear as to the True Seeing user before you use a polymorph effect.

If no:
They see you as nude. Make of this what you will.

Keld Denar
2010-11-01, 10:18 PM
Stand more than 120' away? Unlike See Invis, True Seeing has a limited range.

Its highly debated, but Mind Blank arguably should be able to block TS. TS is a divination (check) that reveals your location (check). Kinda gets you into unstoppable force meets immovable object territory though.

Also, Invisible Spell Fog Cloud defeats it. If you don't have True Seeing, you can't see the fog, and thus are not affected by it's hampered vision. If you have True Seeing, you see the fog that is actually there, except True Seeing can't pierce fog, so its blocked past 5'.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-11-01, 10:22 PM
Surprisingly easy.

The psionic Cloud Mind (http://dndsrd.net/psionicPowersAtoC.html#cloud-mind) power. Only 2nd level.

Their brain simply refuses to acknowledge you.

Kantolin
2010-11-01, 10:32 PM
The power Escape Detection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/escapeDetection.htm) probably works.

Zaq
2010-11-01, 10:36 PM
Surprisingly easy.

The psionic Cloud Mind (http://dndsrd.net/psionicPowersAtoC.html#cloud-mind) power. Only 2nd level.

Their brain simply refuses to acknowledge you.

That's awesome, but it ignores the difficulty of getting someone powerful enough to have True Seeing to fail a save against a non-augmentable level 2 (or level 6, for the Mass version) power. Possible, but usually not a winning proposition.

I say just go for insanely good mundane skill checks. Remember that you can use plenty of magic to boost your skills and the result will still be mundane.

Claudius Maximus
2010-11-01, 10:38 PM
Shadow Weave Magic > Insidious Magic forces a CL check. If they fail they can not see through your illusion.

The Vorpal Tribble
2010-11-01, 10:44 PM
...(or level 6, for the Mass version) power. Possible, but usually not a winning proposition.
Why not cloud mind, mass then? Same level as a wizard/sorc gets true seeing.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-11-01, 10:59 PM
The cloak of Khyber spell (Dragon 337) is a 3rd level sor/wiz spell that lasts 1 day/level and renders any illusion/shapechange/disguise magic on the caster impervious to true seeing as long as the disguise is kept up for six or more hours.

Cuaqchi
2010-11-01, 11:02 PM
Shapechange.

Really it is that easy. Start as a wimpy elf or human wizard, Shapechange into whatever big nasty you feel like. The True Seeing pierces the Shape Change showing a wimpy little human when the Dragon/Demon/Devil/Angel rips his head off.

JaronK
2010-11-01, 11:15 PM
Disguise and/or Hide should do the trick quite nicely.

JaronK

Zaq
2010-11-02, 12:27 AM
Why not cloud mind, mass then? Same level as a wizard/sorc gets true seeing.

Oh right. True Seeing is 6th, Mind Blank is 8th. I always get those two mixed up since they're the big-ticket "your entire strategy is worthless before you start" spells. Yeah, the mass version might be worth using. (I do wish that the normal version was augmentable, though.)

Frosty
2010-11-02, 12:50 AM
If Mindblank doesn't work, Non-Detection has a chance of fooling True Seeing.

dobu
2010-11-02, 02:20 AM
Gnome Illusionist Substitutionlevel 10 forces a CL check.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-11-02, 03:30 AM
The cloak of Khyber spell (Dragon 337)

A more official (and probably more recent) source for the spell is City of Stormreach page 59. [another spell found in City of Stormreach is Animate Infectious Zombie on page 144.]

The internet claims Cloak of Khyber is also found in Mark of Heroes, a softcover module published by WotC for the RPGA.

Killer Angel
2010-11-02, 03:45 AM
Its highly debated, but Mind Blank arguably should be able to block TS. TS is a divination (check) that reveals your location (check). Kinda gets you into unstoppable force meets immovable object territory though.


Ah, yes, in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116367&highlight=true), there was an interesting discussion regarding Mind Blank / Non detection Vs True seeing.

jpreem
2010-11-02, 04:26 AM
Invisible solid fog or obscuring mist. ( by invisible spell metamagic)
edit: Ehh sorry, op-mentioned them as a no. Shame on me.

Ernir
2010-11-02, 05:34 AM
Poke their eyes out. No True Seeing if there is no seeing! \o/

On a more serious note... if you have reason to suspect someone has True Seeing up, and are expecting an encounter, blinding that someone or whacking them with a targeted dispel magic is something you might want to start the fight with anyway.

Less useful if you just need to mislead them, but yeah. If a buff spell is bothering you as much as TS can, attempting to remove it from play rather than circumventing it is usually not a bad idea.

ericgrau
2010-11-02, 09:28 AM
If it's a spellcaster true seeing doesn't last long enough to have up all the time and he won't cast it until after the fight starts. Then you could dispel after you make your spellcraft. If it has true seeing all the time like a demon then it probably has SR and a decent save too, so spending an action to maybe but probably not blind him is a waste. And if you cheese a way to blind him anyway, then that's probably not your only cheese and the DM will be sending even higher CR things at you or it will be a boring campaign. If you're trying to sneak through with a disguise, you're screwed in either situation with or without cheese because stopping the guy would give yourself away. Although in the first case he's unlikely to cast random true seeings. Then I'd look for ways to boost your non-magical disguise check up the yin yang. You can get a net +5 pretty easily with circlet of persuasion + disguise kit.

Tael
2010-11-02, 09:40 AM
Thanks for all the advice. Escape Detection is exactly what I was looking for, as I am a Psion Tibbit, and I want to make a true form unknown to everyone, even (and especially) my party members (It's an evil campaign). It has been suggested to me that I could convince my DM that my true form is actually my cat-form, but that seems a bit sketchy to me. Anyone got some good advice for that, or just for fooling my party members in general?

Gahrer
2010-11-02, 09:42 AM
Hide in plain sight? As worded, it's simply hiding without needing anything to hide behind. True seeing doesn't find people who are "simply hiding" (SRD). Since Hide in plain sight can be used within 10 ft of a shadow, its basicly Invisibility that can't be fooled by See invisibility or True sight with high enough rank in hide. (Finding shadows normally isn't that hard.)

Psyren
2010-11-02, 09:44 AM
You're pretending to be a familiar, right? Have your cohort be a commoner in gaudy robes who wiggles his fingers and yells gibberish whenever you manifest powers.

Also, have him abuse you (his poor cat) frequently; yelling, kicking, cursing etc. Everyone will think he's a psychotic bastard and never suspect that you are the brains of the operation.

Be sure you Overchannel and Extend your Escape Detection each morning to maximize your chances of beating an odd sweep/scan.

ericgrau
2010-11-02, 09:47 AM
Thanks for all the advice. Escape Detection is exactly what I was looking for, as I am a Psion Tibbit, and I want to make a true form unknown to everyone, even (and especially) my party members (It's an evil campaign). It has been suggested to me that I could convince my DM that my true form is actually my cat-form, but that seems a bit sketchy to me. Anyone got some good advice for that, or just for fooling my party members in general?

Then you're going to face some PCs with true seeing but spot as a cross class skill and others with spot but not that high of a wisdom nor true seeing. I'd create both a mundane disguise and a magical disguise (e.g., shape-changing) that are exactly the same, to fool both. If you can, be a shaper to get disguise as a class skill and pump it.

Tael
2010-11-02, 09:49 AM
You're pretending to be a familiar, right? Have your cohort be a commoner in gaudy robes who wiggles his fingers and yells gibberish whenever you manifest powers.

Also, have him abuse you (his poor cat) frequently; yelling, kicking, cursing etc. Everyone will think he's a psychotic bastard and never suspect that you are the brains of the operation.

Even better, I'm a Thrallherd, and my "master" is my Wilder thrall, so if we're ever separated, he can still manifest.

The cat abuse idea is a good one (oh god that sounds horrible out of context), but I'll need to be careful not to overplay it suspiciously.


Then you're going to face some PCs with true seeing but spot as a cross class skill and others with spot but not that high of a wisdom nor true seeing. I'd create both a mundane disguise and a magical disguise (e.g., shape-changing) that are exactly the same, to fool both. If you can, be a shaper to get disguise as a class skill and pump it.

Can a really good disguise check make you seems smaller than you actually are? Because Tibbits in cat form are Tiny, but in humanoid form they're just Small size.

Psyren
2010-11-02, 09:59 AM
Even better, I'm a Thrallherd, and my "master" is my Wilder thrall, so if we're ever separated, he can still manifest.

The cat abuse idea is a good one (oh god that sounds horrible out of context), but I'll need to be careful not to overplay it suspiciously.

I'd have him pretend to be a mage anyway; double-twist. Once people uncover "the truth" they'll think they've got "you" all figured out and not look any deeper.

("Ha! I figured it out! You're really a Wilder, not a Sorcerer! I'm so smart.")

Tips here, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) under "Pretender."

Make him an Educated Wilder for the free Expanded Knowledges; then be sure to Feat Leech (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/featLeech.htm) him regularly for a substantial power boost (and suppress the displays of course.) I don't know how high your game is going, but if you manifest Fusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fusion.htm) and give him control, he can Wild Surge with your power list For Massive Damage, and neither of you will pay the extra PP.

Consider also being an Erudite rather than a Psion; you can learn any power you need from him simply by having him use Psychic Reformation periodically.

Tael
2010-11-02, 10:17 AM
I'd have him pretend to be a mage anyway; double-twist. Once people uncover "the truth" they'll think they've got "you" all figured out and not look any deeper.

("Ha! I figured it out! You're really a Wilder, not a Sorcerer! I'm so smart.")

Tips here, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) under "Pretender."

Make him an Educated Wilder for the free Expanded Knowledges; then be sure to Feat Leech (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/featLeech.htm) him regularly for a substantial power boost (and suppress the displays of course.) I don't know how high your game is going, but if you manifest Fusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fusion.htm) and give him control, he can Wild Surge with your power list For Massive Damage, and neither of you will pay the extra PP.

Consider also being an Erudite rather than a Psion; you can learn any power you need from him simply by having him use Psychic Reformation periodically.

Ooh, nice, I should have thought of being an Erudite, and the Wilder Pretending to be a Sorcerer is good too. My group is probably to meta-gamy for to work more than a session, but it will definitely throw people off.

mangosta71
2010-11-02, 10:21 AM
You can suppress the displays that accompany powers with a DC 15 concentration check. If you're a thrallherd, you have to be at least ECL 6, and your thrall is only 1 ECL below you (minimum is thus 5, which means he has at least 8 ranks in concentration).

Anyone that has True Seeing will have a strong will save, but many of them have weak fort saves. Decerebrate FTW!

ericgrau
2010-11-02, 10:25 AM
Can a really good disguise check make you seems smaller than you actually are? Because Tibbits in cat form are Tiny, but in humanoid form they're just Small size.
Not short of taking (literally) epic penalties. Another option is to wear full body armor in humanoid form. You can wear armor without proficiency but you take a penalty to attack rolls. Or get another full body covering. True seeing does not grant x ray vision.

I love the familiar switch idea too. The look on your party's faces when they finally manage to kill "you" and yet the psionics does not stop will be priceless. Bonus points if your "familiar" runs and hides at the first sign of danger and you're manifesting from the bushes. Do pump hide if you can; there are also magic items that give up to +15. They'll be trying all kinds of anti-invisibility / anti-illusion stuff for a couple rounds.

megabyter5
2010-11-02, 10:30 AM
Or get another full body covering.

Such as a heavy black cloak with a hood!

Korivan
2010-11-03, 03:42 PM
Not sure if its been mentioned before. But I've used the 2 following methods for beating a DM or player using True Seeing.

1) Use the metamagic feat "invisible spell" and the spell "solid fog". Then, using greater invisiblity, am invisible. They cant see me, nor when they use true seeing will see past the reveald fog.

2) (higher level requirement to use devestatanly) Using fly to stay out of range of true seeing, cast spells using invisible spell and silent spell while under the effects if greater invisibility and non-detection style spells. While this will not prevent true seeing from seeing the direction of your spells, you can use a quicken dimension hop to move about for a new sniper position.