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Mikka
2010-11-02, 05:19 AM
E6 is a D&D 3.X variant that, to put it simply limits your max level to 6 (Hence the title Epic 6). After level 6 the character will gain an extra feat every 5000 xp.

Anyone have any cool characters, concepts in mind for a character ending her progression at level 6.

Mastikator
2010-11-02, 05:33 AM
Depends on what you mean by cool. A bard with high charisma and a laid back attitude could be considered cool.

You can also choose this

Human Fighter
Level 1 feat: Power attack
human feat: improved bull rush
fighter feat: exotic weapon prof: spiked chain
level 2 fighter feat: cleave
level 3 feat: <whatever you want>
level 4 fighter feat: great cleave
level 6 feat: leap attack
fighter feat: shock trooper

You'll be able to deal 2d4 + 18 + charge + str + magic bonus from weapon (if any) to a 5x5 square area as long as the target you hit dies, and with full "to hit" intact.

Ernir
2010-11-02, 05:40 AM
Hmm. Are you asking about character builds that work well within the E6 scope, or for character concepts that are easier to express in E6 than in normal D&D?

JeminiZero
2010-11-02, 05:48 AM
You might find this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160998) thread interesting.

Mikka
2010-11-02, 05:58 AM
Builds and/or concepts : )

But mainly builds i suppose, not crazy cheese so spare me the inevitable pun-pun >_<*

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-02, 08:05 AM
Consider using Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread Necromancer with the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon to get 4th level spells. A Dread Necromancer can get Enervation, or a Warmage gets the Orb of [Energy] spells, which gets even better with E6's custom metamagic feats especially considering you can use Arcane Thesis from PH2. I'd probably use Black Tentacles more than anything with a Warmage, but you could easily make a character who can go around one-shotting stuff.

Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Venerable Desert Kobold Loredrake, Martial Wizard 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Mindbender 1, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. That gets 9th level Wizard spellcasting, specialist ACFs like Abrupt Jaunt, the Domain Access Sorcerer ACF in CC with no drawbacks, Eschew Materials for free, Mindsight, and never has to worry about losing a spellbook. With Spellhoarding he writes his spells on his scales, he can write the same spell multiple times, and he can sacrifice those written spell copies to substitute for costly material/xp components for spells. He can even sacrifice a written spell to cast it as though from a scroll, and remember there's no limit to what level of spells a wizard can copy into his book. If this character found a writing or scroll of a high level spell including 9th, and made the spellcraft check to understand it, he could copy it onto his scales limitless times, and sacrifice one of those copies to cast it as though from a scroll (which means it's as though any costly material/xp components were already paid). Your spell-like ability from the Draconic Rite of Passage can be Charm Person so you can pick Enchantment as a prohibited school and still get Mindbender. You'll have a +3 BAB (+4 with fractional), base saves of 3/1/8, and your HD will be 2d4+4d8+4+(6x Con). Be sure to get Collegiate Wizard so you can get more 4th and 5th level spells when you level up.

jiriku
2010-11-02, 08:33 AM
Consider using Beguiler, Warmage, or Dread Necromancer with the feat Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon to get 4th level spells. A Dread Necromancer can get Enervation, or a Warmage gets the Orb of [Energy] spells, which gets even better with E6's custom metamagic feats especially considering you can use Arcane Thesis from PH2. I'd probably use Black Tentacles more than anything with a Warmage, but you could easily make a character who can go around one-shotting stuff.

Spellhoarding Dragonwrought Venerable Desert Kobold Loredrake, Martial Wizard 1/ Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 4/ Mindbender 1, Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. That gets 9th level Wizard spellcasting, specialist ACFs like Abrupt Jaunt, the Domain Access Sorcerer ACF in CC with no drawbacks, Eschew Materials for free, Mindsight, and never has to worry about losing a spellbook. With Spellhoarding he writes his spells on his scales, he can write the same spell multiple times, and he can sacrifice those written spell copies to substitute for costly material/xp components for spells. He can even sacrifice a written spell to cast it as though from a scroll, and remember there's no limit to what level of spells a wizard can copy into his book. If this character found a writing or scroll of a high level spell including 9th, and made the spellcraft check to understand it, he could copy it onto his scales limitless times, and sacrifice one of those copies to cast it as though from a scroll (which means it's as though any costly material/xp components were already paid). Your spell-like ability from the Draconic Rite of Passage can be Charm Person so you can pick Enchantment as a prohibited school and still get Mindbender. You'll have a +3 BAB (+4 with fractional), base saves of 3/1/8, and your HD will be 2d4+4d8+4+(6x Con). Be sure to get Collegiate Wizard so you can get more 4th and 5th level spells when you level up.

But part of E6 is that spells (and thus spell SLOTS) of 4th level and higher simply don't exist. Even if you can boost your casting progression in some way, there simply aren't spells or slots above 3rd level to be had.

dextercorvia
2010-11-02, 08:37 AM
But part of E6 is that spells (and thus spell SLOTS) of 4th level and higher simply don't exist. Even if you can boost your casting progression in some way, there simply aren't spells or slots above 3rd level to be had.

While that might be the intent of E6, I have never seen it stated in the rules.

jiriku
2010-11-02, 10:47 AM
I'd think it's more or less implicit. There is no 7th level of sorcerer/wizard/whatever. Thus, the benefits of being a 7th level of sorcerer/wizard/whatever can't be had by whatever means. E6 doesn't consist of 20-level classes with an arbitrary level cap at six -- E6 classes are really and truly only six levels long.

But I suppose if you choose to roll a different way, there's nothing stopping you. Kind of seems to defeat the purpose of the game to me, though.

true_shinken
2010-11-02, 11:27 AM
I'd think it's more or less implicit. There is no 7th level of sorcerer/wizard/whatever. Thus, the benefits of being a 7th level of sorcerer/wizard/whatever can't be had by whatever means. E6 doesn't consist of 20-level classes with an arbitrary level cap at six -- E6 classes are really and truly only six levels long.

But I suppose if you choose to roll a different way, there's nothing stopping you. Kind of seems to defeat the purpose of the game to me, though.

Actually, I think it's kind of intended to work the way he pointed out. There are several E6 feats to break the E6 limits, including getting a 4th level spell.

jiriku
2010-11-02, 12:34 PM
The mind boggles at the idea that E6 was intended to include a character who is effectively 9th level. I'd sooner drown-heal.

Person_Man
2010-11-02, 12:50 PM
I'm particularly fond of Binder/Incarnate or Totemist/Tome of Battle multiclass builds for E6. All of their abilities are "all day." You can dramatically augment all of their abilities with feats (unlike metamagic and psionics, which is constrained by spell level and manifester level adjustments). They synergize well together. You can change your abilities every morning. And most importantly, they're fun.

Also, the "sweet spot" for a lot of their abilities kick in early. For example:

Binder 3 with the Improved Binder feat can use Paimon (+4 Dex, limited Weapon Finesse, Whirlwind Attack, Dance of Death, minor Skill bonuses.
Totemist 2: Opens up the Totem chakra. Lots of options here, with the standouts being 4 Claw Attacks, at will Stone to Flesh (only last one round, but it's awesome), and Move Action at will Dimension Door, Die Hard, etc.
Incarnate 3: Lots of options. SR 17, 4d6 retributive fire damage, DR 8/magic, and +10ish bonuses to your choice of Skills.
Tome of Battle: Because 1/2 of your levels in any other class count toward your maneuver and stance level, you only need 2 levels of a ToB class to pick up 1st and second level manuevers, or 4 levels to pick up 3rd (assuming you take the ToB levels last). Totemist 2/Swordsage 4 is a particularly nasty combination.

gorfnab
2010-11-02, 01:27 PM
Wildshaping Trapfinding Arcane Hunter Mystic Ranger with the feats Wild Cohort and Sword of the Arcane Order

Beguiler 5/ Mage of the Arcane Order 1 with the feats Arcane Preparation, Cooperative Spell, and Versatile Spellcaster

Tyndmyr
2010-11-02, 02:36 PM
But part of E6 is that spells (and thus spell SLOTS) of 4th level and higher simply don't exist. Even if you can boost your casting progression in some way, there simply aren't spells or slots above 3rd level to be had.

This is untrue by raw and rai. It WAS stated that spell levels of 4th level or higher should be hard to get, but the creator reccomended that several 4th level spells be included as feats at minimum.

And e6 originated as a means of granular progression. You could buy anything, one chunk of xp at a time. It was simplified due to people selecting only feats in playtesting. An equally valid interpretation would have been that he undercosted feats relative to everything else.

Now, on to builds.

Hexblade 6 is surprisingly practical.

Calimehter
2010-11-02, 03:07 PM
I would think that just about any build that is otherwise described as "front-loaded" or "feat taxed" would do well (or at least better) in E6. :)

Rogue3/Swashbuckler3 with Daring Outlaw as a "capstone" feat is working out nicely for an NPC that I'm fleshing out for my own E6 campaign.

Brainstomper
2010-11-02, 03:24 PM
Cali..
He will die by the hand of Karn.

Stegyre
2010-11-02, 04:11 PM
Artificer or Psionic Artificer 6: with enough work, it's amazing how high you can boost your CL for crafting . . . .

EDIT: For myself, I like Ardent 2 / Swordsage 4, interweaving the levels and taking Practiced Manifester so as to get both high-level (well, 3rd level) maneuvers and powers.

The real challenge is finding an E6 campaign. Anyone? Anyone? Beuler?

Tyndmyr
2010-11-02, 04:15 PM
I would think that just about any build that is otherwise described as "front-loaded" or "feat taxed" would do well (or at least better) in E6. :)

Rogue3/Swashbuckler3 with Daring Outlaw as a "capstone" feat is working out nicely for an NPC that I'm fleshing out for my own E6 campaign.

Indeed. Even monk does decently well. In general, though, you want classes that give you things not accessible via feats. Ie, bab and juicy class features like spellcasting. Hp, save, proficiencies, bonus feats...those will be mostly unimportant after a bit.

So, unless you go dungeoncrasher, fighter 6 is still a poor choice.

La can be good, tho, if chosen carefully

Kiero
2010-11-02, 04:56 PM
I'd think it's more or less implicit. There is no 7th level of sorcerer/wizard/whatever. Thus, the benefits of being a 7th level of sorcerer/wizard/whatever can't be had by whatever means. E6 doesn't consist of 20-level classes with an arbitrary level cap at six -- E6 classes are really and truly only six levels long.

But I suppose if you choose to roll a different way, there's nothing stopping you. Kind of seems to defeat the purpose of the game to me, though.

Exactly. One of the guiding philosophies behind E6 was to avoid the complexity and dreary inevitability of higher-level magics.

Coidzor
2010-11-02, 04:59 PM
But I suppose if you choose to roll a different way, there's nothing stopping you. Kind of seems to defeat the purpose of the game to me, though.

There are CR 7 creatures with 4th level spells, nymphs, for instance. Take away the nymphs' 4th level spells and you've downed its CR.

So, yeah.

Hawk7915
2010-11-02, 05:06 PM
Spellcasters are still good, but the spellcasters with class features besides just casting (Archivist, Druid, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer) really shine in E6 and probably form whatever counts for "Tier 1". Tome of Battle characters are as good as ever. For non-ToB martial characters, the best thing to do (assuming no fractional saves, which E6 explicitly discourages anyways) is a multi-level dip to mooch the most class features and save boosts possible while still getting full BAB. For example, Barbarian 3/Ranger 1/Fighter 2 or Paladin of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 3/Knight 1 are decent builds that get lots of cool tricks (especially with alternate class features, like Spirit Lion Totem and Dungeoncrasher), great saves, and the coveted two attacks per round.

Mongoose87
2010-11-02, 05:47 PM
I would think that just about any build that is otherwise described as "front-loaded" or "feat taxed" would do well (or at least better) in E6. :)

Rogue3/Swashbuckler3 with Daring Outlaw as a "capstone" feat is working out nicely for an NPC that I'm fleshing out for my own E6 campaign.

Actually, what you do is Swash 6, take Martial Study => Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance), then use that to take Daring Outlaw, so you get 5d6 Sneak Attack.

Flickerdart
2010-11-02, 05:55 PM
Bard 5/Dirgesinger 1 with Song of the White Raven and Harmonize. Drop three songs in a round - buff your allies, debuff your enemies, buff your allies some more.

Kosjsjach
2010-11-02, 05:56 PM
I've seen the Dread Necromancer mentioned a few times in this thread, but there's a problem where E6 is concerned: for a DN, Animate Dead is a 4th-level spell.

Of course there are work-arounds, like the Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell trick, or Arcane Disciple (Undeath). But they don't really fill their role description right out of the box, which is a shame.

Concerning cool E6 builds, straight Warlock is remarkably feasible. They get their first (and only) Lesser invocation; while many would choose the flight invocation, I've always wanted to see or play an E6 Warlock with the The Dead Walk invocation; unlimited dead-raising, choose which ones you want to keep by paying the normal fee. Delicious.

Kosjsjach
2010-11-02, 06:01 PM
Actually, what you do is Swash 6, take Martial Study => Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance), then use that to take Daring Outlaw, so you get 5d6 Sneak Attack.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but a Swashbuckler 6 has an Initiator Level of 3; don't you need an IL of 5 for 3rd-level stances?

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-02, 06:15 PM
Just because the class level 7th+ doesn't exist does not mean the class feature progression 7th+ ceases to exist. In E6 there are still Lammasus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lammasu.htm) and Ghaeles (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm), true Dragons, and psionic Illithids who get spellcasting/manifesting progressions above 6th level as a racial ability. Monsters can still have >6 racial HD, after all. The class progressions continue to exist in E6, they just typically aren't available to PCs. A Hatchling Phaerimm (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040313a) Sorcerer 6 gets 12th level Sorcerer spellcasting ability, which is just as playable a character as a Human Fighter 6.

Monsters in E6 don't get downgraded, they keep all their racial HD and racial spellcasting abilities. That's part of what makes E6 challenging, there are many creatures in the world which few heroes would be able to defeat. Gaining 4th level spells from an extremely limited/focused list isn't exactly game breaking, especially when it costs two of your highest level spell slots to cast each one. The Kobold and Phaerimm tricks are cheesy, but they're no less valid for it. The class progressions still exist beyond 6th, they're just typically unavailable to PCs.


Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) 6, preferably a small race like Whisper Gnome or Water Halfling, Weapon Finesse, TWF, ITWF, with the extra E6 feats get Weapon Focus/Specialization, the Fighter capstone, Melee Weapon Mastery, Improved Crit, Craven, Martial Study/Stance: Island of Blades, Shadow Blade. Try to get two Swords of Subtlety.

Keld Denar
2010-11-02, 06:22 PM
I've seen the Dread Necromancer mentioned a few times in this thread, but there's a problem where E6 is concerned: for a DN, Animate Dead is a 4th-level spell.

Illumian Dread Necros with the NaenHoon sigil have a pseudo-Divine Metamagic ability that works with any spell, divine or arcane. That means that you could burn some of your DN Rebuke attempts to add Fell Animate to a spell like Death Knell. Thats a free Animate Dead 2x/day for 4 TU attempts each! Undead hordes ASSEMBLE!!!!!

Also, doesn't E6 have rules for getting LA classes at lower PBs? Cause you could have some fun with a Goliath. Warblade1/Fighter2/Warblade+3 is a solid build.

1 Warblade1 Power Attack
2 Fighter1 Imp Bullrush
3 Fighter2 DUNGEONCRASHER, Knockback
4 Warblade2
5 Warblade3
6 Warblade4 Cleave

Wield a Glaive for reach, or pick up EWP Spiked Chain as one of your bonus feats past 6. Wind up a full PA with Emerald Razor to punt people for LONG distance, or punt multiple enemies with Steel Wind. Cleave generally pays off 1-2 times a fight with reach, especially with decent damage.

Akal Saris
2010-11-02, 06:49 PM
I had fun in E6 with a modified "Supermount!" build:

Warforged Paladin 5/Beastmaster 1 with natural bond, celestial mount, and Devoted Tracker, which stacks a paladin's mount and an animal companion. Then from bonus feats in E6 I got the feats to advance class feature (Paladin's Mount), and advance class feature (Beastmaster's AC).

Ended up with a 8HD celestial dire lion with 4 bonus HD if I recall - a classic case of the companion being stronger than the main character. Of course, the other 4 characters in this game were a druid, a cleric, an artificer, and a sorcerer, so as over-powered as a 12 HD companion sounds, it was pretty on-par with the rest of the group.

Alternate take on the same idea:
Human Conjurer 5/Zhentarim Skymage 1 or Cloistered Cleric 5/Skymage 1. Pump your Cha high enough and you end up with a companion of ~8HD.

Mongoose87
2010-11-02, 06:58 PM
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but a Swashbuckler 6 has an Initiator Level of 3; don't you need an IL of 5 for 3rd-level stances?

Ack! I must destroy all witnesses! *casts a Locate City bomb on GitP*

Mikka
2010-11-02, 07:04 PM
Im working on a

Bard(1)/Ranger(1+)/Crusader(1+) character

Bard with dragonfire inspiration and song of the heart makes an awesome support character +2 hit/damage or +2d6 damage is awesome (with items this can get higher) , crusader for well, crusader abilities and song of the white raven. and ranger for trapfinding, bab, skills (possibly mystic ranger)

Thinking of Bard(1)/Ranger(4)/Crusader(1) , i'll get trapfinding, a combat style, +2 bard song, fair amount of skills and level 2 maneuvers and stances.
With ranger 4 i have two options
1: Animal companion (with natural bond it becomes cool.
2: Mystic Ranger (level 2 spells)

With a Bab of +5 and a good amount of HP, he's a good melee'r, support and trapfinder. Jack of all trades thats more than capable.

The alternative is bard(1)/ranger(1)/Crusader(4) , more fighter'ish , he gets level 3 initiator levels, gets tougher with crusader class abilities but misses out on skill points, combat style, animal companion/spellcasting.

What do you guys think? : )

Also, hmm, how should i arm this guy?

Also @Biffoniacus_Furiou incredibly crazy stuff, all cool by RAW but endlessly cheesy. Even doing a white dragonspawn kobold + greater draconic rite (Sorcerer cl 8) is over the top o_O

Keld Denar
2010-11-02, 07:09 PM
You don't qualify for Songs of the Heart because you don't have Inspire Competance (the prereq). You need 3 full bard levels. Also, Song of the White Raven is kinda pointless here. You won't have enough combined Bard + Crusader levels to hit effective level 8 as a Bard, so you won't get the next IC bump, and starting your song as a swift action precludes you from casting Inspirational Boost, another +1 to your Inspire Courage.

I'd go with more Crusader and drop Ranger altogether, or just stick to straight Bard and take the Wild Cohort feat (online, some web enhancement, google it).

Mikka
2010-11-02, 07:19 PM
So Bard(3)/Ranger(1)/Crusader(1) . . that leaves one more level open.

Another ranger level for a combat style seems like a waste. . and the crusader doesn't gain much either.

Quickened song is nice because you can then start round 1 with an inspirational boost Dragonfire song, then the next round you 'pop' a quickened regular inspire courage and go do whatever else you feel like.

I kinda like having the trap-finding, this for a party of treasure hunters and ruin delvers who has none. Traps are pretty likely, but losing bab isn't cool.

Keld Denar
2010-11-02, 07:22 PM
Planar Touchstone (a feat from the Planar Handbook) can get you Trapfinding for the cost of 1 feat, 250g, and a few ranks in Knowledge:Planes. E6 tends to have plenty of feats to spare, so this isn't a bad investment.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-02, 07:37 PM
Changeling [anything with full BAB 4; Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 1/ Warblade 3 is nice]/ Warshaper 2 is pretty strong.

Factotum 5/ anything 1. Really, anything. (Cloistered Cleric 1 for Travel Devotion and Knowledge Devotion is a good way to do it; Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer 1 to be really hard to kill and have more casting; Mindbender 1 for Mindsight; and many, many other possibilities).

If you allow the Rainbow Servant early entry trick, [any arcane caster 1]/ Rainbow Servant 4/ Mindbender 1 works well. If your DM will countenance Alternate Source Spell, it can even let you get Divine Metamagic (using the Air Domain turn attempts) as well as your wings and Mindsight.

Scout 5/ Swordsage 1 with Improved Skirmish gets some nice ambush feats and is great at running around stabbing people in the face while not getting hurt, thanks to Child of Shadow, Sudden Leap, and various Desert Wind abilities.

Goliath Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6, with Knockback. Hit people and bounce them off walls for very large amounts of damage.

Duskblade 5/ Warblade 1, for gishery.

Abrupt Jaunt Conjurer 1/ Monk 1/ Warblade 4, with Carmendine Monk, Sun School, Snap Kick, and Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt). It's like a mini-Shadow Pounce build.

Pointless but fun: Paladin 2/ Favored Soul 2/ Monk or Swordsage 2. You can't actually do much, but you're rather hard to kill. Warforged Crusaders, Factotums/ Abrupt Jaunt Conjurers, and various other builds can also be really difficult to kill.

Flickerdart
2010-11-02, 07:41 PM
Wild Cohort is basically suck in E6, since effective 3rd level Druid is pretty lame when it comes to your picks, and Natural Bond doesn't boost its level because it isn't a companion.

Stegyre
2010-11-02, 11:57 PM
Wild Cohort is basically suck in E6, since effective 3rd level Druid is pretty lame when it comes to your picks, and Natural Bond doesn't boost its level because it isn't a companion.

Seems like a Natural Bond rewrite to apply to Wild Cohorts would not be an unreasonable house rule. YMMV

Monsters in E6 don't get downgraded, they keep all their racial HD and racial spellcasting abilities.
I am also a member of the school of thought that believes level 4+ spells/powers/etc. continue to exist in E6; they are just harder to obtain. (Although I do not subscribe to the theory that taking Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell suddenly opens that doorway; IMHO, that is a cheesy reading of the rule, but to each his own -- that's part of the point of fantasy.)

Monster HD raise an interesting point that I don't think I've seen expressly addressed in an E6 discussion: whether a PC may have six class levels plus monster HD. IMO, the answer is no. In my interpretation of E6, "six HD" is an absolute for anything with class levels. Monsters (even NPCs) with more than 6 HD cannot have class levels; those with less than 6 HD may have only the number of class levels to bring their HD up to 6. This disfavors such races as PCs, but I'm fine with that.

(Again, YMMV; and on the other hand, I would allow "retraining" of existing levels - at the same price as a feat for each level retrained - so characters could get multiple levels of some of the lower PrCs.)

Coidzor
2010-11-03, 12:11 AM
Wild Cohort is basically suck in E6, since effective 3rd level Druid is pretty lame when it comes to your picks, and Natural Bond doesn't boost its level because it isn't a companion.

I didn't think you can get anything for effective 3rd level druid for Wild Cohort, and so you'd only have the basic selection + 3 bonus HD, +3 NA, +1 Str/Dex, 2 tricks known, and evasion. Even with the warbeast template it's not going to be all that sweet nifty. A warbeast riding dog/wolf wild cohort would still only have 6 HD, though it could also set off a max HD wild cohort infinite loop/pack.

Tyndmyr
2010-11-03, 12:38 AM
I am also a member of the school of thought that believes level 4+ spells/powers/etc. continue to exist in E6; they are just harder to obtain. (Although I do not subscribe to the theory that taking Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell suddenly opens that doorway; IMHO, that is a cheesy reading of the rule, but to each his own -- that's part of the point of fantasy.)

Well, having played and DMed under such rules, and actually having used that method myself, I've concluded it's generally suboptimal.

First off, the extra slot granting feat in E6 isn't based on spell level...its based on half CL, rounded down. Getting CL 8 is doable in E6, but requires investment. 10 is also doable, but quite painful. 12 is manageable with very specific builds, and requires extreme investment. You're pretty much done at CL 13. This is a problem for gaining extra spell slots.

Secondly, you need to get spells known, in a world where you don't continue to level up, and in which 4th level scrolls and the like are rare at best. This can also be mitigated by feats, but Extra Spell only teaches you a spell of a level 1 lower than your highest. So, at a minimum, you need Sanctum Spell in addition to the aforementioned tricks, allowing you to learn spells in your Sanctum only.

So, in general, the power boost that such shenanigans grant(lesser sphere of invulnerability is an excellent choice) is great, but not disproportionate to the resources expended to receive them.

Another variant I've played allowed the purchasing of class features(spellcasting excepted) at the same rate as feats. The limitations were that if you started a class or PrC, you had to meet the prereqs(if any) first, if you started a class in this way, you had to finish the features before starting another(though normal feats were unaffected and could be taken at any time), and you had to purchase them in order of level. It proved fairly balanced, as even the best classes typically toss in a number of weaker abilities alongside the heavy hitters, making them slow to progress through.

I'm convinced that E6 is actually fairly hard to really break. You have differences due to wildly different optimization levels still, true, but it's not nearly the problem that it would be in straight D&D, and the basic system is pretty resilient, even with varying house rules added.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-03, 12:50 AM
I am also a member of the school of thought that believes level 4+ spells/powers/etc. continue to exist in E6; they are just harder to obtain. (Although I do not subscribe to the theory that taking Versatile Spellcaster and Heighten Spell suddenly opens that doorway; IMHO, that is a cheesy reading of the rule, but to each his own -- that's part of the point of fantasy.)

Monster HD raise an interesting point that I don't think I've seen expressly addressed in an E6 discussion: whether a PC may have six class levels plus monster HD. IMO, the answer is no. In my interpretation of E6, "six HD" is an absolute for anything with class levels. Monsters (even NPCs) with more than 6 HD cannot have class levels; those with less than 6 HD may have only the number of class levels to bring their HD up to 6. This disfavors such races as PCs, but I'm fine with that.

(Again, YMMV; and on the other hand, I would allow "retraining" of existing levels - at the same price as a feat for each level retrained - so characters could get multiple levels of some of the lower PrCs.)

I'd say if a creature has any class levels at all, their Class Levels + Racial HD is capped at 6. If a creature has six or more racial HD, it cannot ever gain any class levels, though it can continue advancing its racial HD as normal. You could basically categorize everything as a 'character' or a 'monster', characters are anything with class levels, whereas monsters never have any class levels. Characters are capped at 6 HD total, including both class levels and racial HD, monsters have no limitation. Once a monster takes its first class level it becomes a character, but it may not gain a class level if it would put it above the 6 HD limit.


A Ranger with Natural Bond counts as a 6th level Druid for is animal companion, or Ranger 5/ Beastmaster 1 would count as 9th adding its own bonuses in the most beneficial order. That will get you an 8 HD Wolf, or a 7 HD Serval from Sandstorm. Wild Cohort specifically says that it's tracked as a separate ability from an animal companion, but it does not say that the two cannot be the same creature. That would give it another +3 HD, so you would have an 11 HD pet. You can make a Handle Animal check after some training time to give it the Warbeast template (MM2), for another +1 HD, so 12 HD Wolf or 11 HD Serval, and don't forget the base creature can be Magebred (ECS) for additional bonuses.

Godskook
2010-11-03, 12:56 AM
Spellcasters are still good, but the spellcasters with class features besides just casting (Archivist, Druid, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer) really shine in E6 and probably form whatever counts for "Tier 1". Tome of Battle characters are as good as ever. For non-ToB martial characters, the best thing to do (assuming no fractional saves, which E6 explicitly discourages anyways) is a multi-level dip to mooch the most class features and save boosts possible while still getting full BAB. For example, Barbarian 3/Ranger 1/Fighter 2 or Paladin of Tyranny 2/Hexblade 3/Knight 1 are decent builds that get lots of cool tricks (especially with alternate class features, like Spirit Lion Totem and Dungeoncrasher), great saves, and the coveted two attacks per round.

:smallconfused:

2 attacks per round is *NOT* (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=201155) coveted as much as you think, even in E6.

Mushroom Ninja
2010-11-03, 01:20 AM
You could probably pull off a pretty fun DFI bard in E6... lemme see...

Human (silverbrow) Bard 6

Feats:
1: Dragonfire Inspiration
Human Bonus: -- Free --
3: Song of the Heart
6: Words of Creation

Pick up the Inspirational Boost Spell and you could be dumping +6d6 damage on all of your party's attacks.

JaronK
2010-11-03, 02:15 AM
I imagine a strong shield charger could be amazing in E6 due to all the feats. Something like Whirling Frenzy Lion/Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Crusader 4 would be plenty, taking Shock Trooper, Shield Charge, Shield Slam, Headlong Rush, and maybe Curling Wave Strike... what more do you need?

JaronK

Pechvarry
2010-11-03, 03:20 AM
...taking Shock Trooper, Shield Charge, Shield Slam, Headlong Rush, and maybe Curling Wave Strike... what more do you need?

The always fun (but never used in charge builds for some reason) Neraph Charge?

0Megabyte
2010-11-03, 03:26 AM
I know nobody asked me, but I'm of the school of thought that 4th level spells shouldn't be acquired by the PC's except on a very restricted case-by-case basis.

After all, examples are given such as Stone to Flesh, which becomes a capstone feat which takes a whole day and 1000 gp to cast.

Utility spells like that and Restoration are are obvious choices, because how else are you going to restore your ally who was turned to stone! Other good examples are Wall of Fire and Cone of Cold, which end up being "one-per-day" abilities that don't take a spell slot.

Now, I think specific spells should be done on a case-by-case basis, and be treated like the examples given. I'd hold that 4th level spells could only be gained as a feat, because I honestly don't like the cheesy ways of doing it in practice, as fun as they are to think of. The ones I'd treat that way are spells that don't really seem too far out of tune with what a 3rd level spell could do. Take Cure Critical Wounds. The Orb spells, too, especially since they could only do 6d6 damage.

Dimension Door may be a tad too much, however. Definitely no Lesser Geas.

More importantly, I'd hold that really powerful/important things, like a teleportation or whatnot, should become a quest sort of thingie. Like, the heroes need to get to the inaccessible floating island, so they must first delve into the library dungeon to gain access to how to create this ancient spell, gain a couple rare and/or expensive material components, and have the party wizard take an entire day to cast the spell. "Epic" magic of that sort should only exist for a strong story reason.

Planar Binding could be the solution to summoning the being needed to help save the world. But it would be difficult and costly, and you'd need both help and special resources to do it!

To defeat the CR 12 or 13 vampire lord, a full-power Sunbeam may be the answer. But the use of such a powerful spell might kill the paladin who uses it outright, Trap the Soul may have the side effect of trapping the soul of the one who casts it alongside the enemy it's used upon, etc.

Roc Ness
2010-11-03, 03:43 AM
Okay, I don't care if this is suboptimal, or just bad or too feat-intensive to be possible (this is E6 folks!) or whatever. But I have always wanted to play, in an E6 game, a Bard/Druid with a Chocobo Riding Bird companion, with Rich Burlew's Fey Druid feats (notably Leader of the Pack), some Mounted Combat feats, and the Storm Bolt reserve feat.

Buff your birdie to the Outer Planes, and fire endless lightning from its back while it tears up the monsters in your way! :smallcool:

riddles
2010-11-03, 05:48 AM
I'm playing a halfling marshal/bard with wild cohort to get a mounted buffer build. Once I've got the mounted combat feats, powrer attack and song of the heart, its extra spell all the way. Its nice being the face, buffer and moderate damage dealer all in one.

Psychic warrior with psychic body and as many psychic talent feats as possible is nice too. Hustle - psychic weapon - recycle is a nice combo with tons of hp and pp

HunterOfJello
2010-11-03, 05:55 AM
Anything with a Dragonwrought Kobold and 1 level of Sorcerer would be amazing. With Lore Drake and the Greater Rite you'll be able to cast as a Sorc 4 from just 1 level. This is nice in any campaign, but when stops at level 6, it's especially nice.

Any build with a +1 LA race or template would also be excellent if you can drop the +1 at level 3.

Shifters might also finally be worth playing since they improve with a large # of shifter feats.

~
Some fun choices might include classes that benefit from a large number of feats and are typically considered feat deprived.

A good bard build with other elements mixed it seems like it could work great to me. Bards have tons of good feats that they can grab to improve their abilities.

Psions also have a nice list of feats they can grab. The +1 to all of their DCs will be very nice to grab.

I'm not intimately familiar with E6 feat rules but feat combinations to use metamagic with heavy reducers would be excellent.

~

The Magic of Incarnum classes are much better off in an E6 campaign. The feats offered in the book are also much more impressive in E6 since you can decide to spend your extra feats on cool soulmelds to do things like Walk of Water, Immunity to Disease, constant Light Fortification, Low-Light Vision, constant Detect Magic, +2 Natural Armor, and a long list of good feats that boost your skill points in multiple skills.

Mikka
2010-11-07, 06:40 PM
Heres some other cool elements that are more viable in E6 than usual.


Paladin 2/4/5: Divine Grace/Turn Undead/Special Mount
Lion Totem Barbarian 1: Pounce and Rage
Binder 1 or 3: Dahlver-Nar or Paimon (!) Vestige
Totemist 2: Totem Chakra, +1 Totem essentia capacity
Incarnate 3: +1 essentia capacity
Crusader 4: Steely Resolve 10, maneuvers, stances
Swordsage 2: Wis to AC in light armor, maneuvers, stances
Rogue 2: Sneak Attack (opens several Feat combos), Evasion
Wildshape Ranger 5: Wildshape


(stolen from person man)


How about sort of making a list of things that work well within the confines of E6? like, taking one ToB class at level 5-6 for 1-2 level maneuvers and stances. Dipping binder for all sorts of neat things, and maybe what you can do assuming you have a high amount of feats available ?

fil kearney
2010-11-10, 04:49 PM
Artificer or Psionic Artificer 6: with enough work, it's amazing how high you can boost your CL for crafting . . . .

EDIT: For myself, I like Ardent 2 / Swordsage 4, interweaving the levels and taking Practiced Manifester so as to get both high-level (well, 3rd level) maneuvers and powers.

The real challenge is finding an E6 campaign. Anyone? Anyone? Beuler?


This thread actually inspired me to run one. Check sig.