Hawk7915
2010-11-02, 12:59 PM
Apologies if this should be in homebrew, but I thought this was the best spot as it's more "house rules" than "Homebrew". This is inspired by the "What would it take to make a top tier melee (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174230)?" thread and the Tier System (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) in general.
You're trying to make a more balanced "Player's Handbook" for your playgroup. Let's say (sake of argument) that you are absolutely including Bard, Cleric, Wizard, and Druid (you are banning feats, changing some class features, and nerfing/banning spells to get the uber-casters down to T2-3). You can't include Tome of Battle, and you need at least 8 more character classes. Even though the "core" book you're crafting won't have Tome of Battle, any meleers in it need to be able to be within a tier of the Warblade, Crusader, and Swordsage in case the game calls for those classes. What do you include?
One common bit of advice with the tier system is to let the lower tiers Gestalt with each other to give them more variety and/or make them better at their job. So my solution would be to try to get the best crunch/fluff combos I can by combining the lower tiers with higher ones. Some obvious standouts include...
The Captain/Commander/Warlord/Fighter: - Gestalt Marshal/Fighter, with Dungeoncrasher being mandatory. This feels like what a Fighter should have been, to me. Still boasts a ton of dead levels and no strong incentive to stick with the class past 6 or 8, but suddenly you have a great warrior who's also a team player and can even do some skill-monkeying thanks to his incredible skill list (has all knowledges, all social skills, spot, listen, and can add his CHA to any of them if he wants too).
The Hunter: Gestalt Scout/Ranger. Low HD, but great skills, tons of bonus feats, interesting combat styles (that both benefit from Skirmish dice), minor spellcasting, and an animal companion.
The Scoundrel: Gestalt Swashbuckler/Rogue. Almost a "Lightning Warrior", with two good saves, d10 HD, full BAB, 8 skills/level, an amazing class skill list, and decent class features. Only limited by his crummy proficiencies (and lack of casting, obviously, and utter reliance on full attack actions).
The Paladin/Guardian/Templar: Gestalt Paladin/Knight, possibly with a house rule to allow casting to be Charsima-based. A true tank class with a mountain of class features, although he's still a bit one-trick and he has a really restrictive code of honor.
So here's the questions...
1) Do the above classes feel like they'd be tier 3? Tier 2, even? Why or why not? What else do they need?
2) That's 8 classes; what do you do for the last 4? Cheat and go for Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Sorcerer, and Duskblade? Or do you gestalt more lower tiers?
3) Related to above, what other gestalts "Feel" like a real class out of the box? Some of the ones I thought of but am unsure of are...
- The Priest: Healer/Expert
- The Dragon Warrior: Dragon Shaman/Samurai or Dragon Shaman/Warrior
- The Shaman: Dragon Shaman/Adept; possible houserule for Touch to be Wisdom; or casting to be Charisma-based
- The Sage: Ninja/Monk.
- The Stalker: Ninja/Warlock, possible houserule for Ki to be Charisma, or invocations to be Wisdom.
- The Berserker: Barbarian/Samurai, probably just dropping the Daisho stuff entirely.
- The Warmage: Warrior/Warmage; isn't this just a bad duskblade? Still an option especially if you are including the Beguiler and Dread Necro as other spontaneous arcane casters instead of sorcerer.
Thoughts?
You're trying to make a more balanced "Player's Handbook" for your playgroup. Let's say (sake of argument) that you are absolutely including Bard, Cleric, Wizard, and Druid (you are banning feats, changing some class features, and nerfing/banning spells to get the uber-casters down to T2-3). You can't include Tome of Battle, and you need at least 8 more character classes. Even though the "core" book you're crafting won't have Tome of Battle, any meleers in it need to be able to be within a tier of the Warblade, Crusader, and Swordsage in case the game calls for those classes. What do you include?
One common bit of advice with the tier system is to let the lower tiers Gestalt with each other to give them more variety and/or make them better at their job. So my solution would be to try to get the best crunch/fluff combos I can by combining the lower tiers with higher ones. Some obvious standouts include...
The Captain/Commander/Warlord/Fighter: - Gestalt Marshal/Fighter, with Dungeoncrasher being mandatory. This feels like what a Fighter should have been, to me. Still boasts a ton of dead levels and no strong incentive to stick with the class past 6 or 8, but suddenly you have a great warrior who's also a team player and can even do some skill-monkeying thanks to his incredible skill list (has all knowledges, all social skills, spot, listen, and can add his CHA to any of them if he wants too).
The Hunter: Gestalt Scout/Ranger. Low HD, but great skills, tons of bonus feats, interesting combat styles (that both benefit from Skirmish dice), minor spellcasting, and an animal companion.
The Scoundrel: Gestalt Swashbuckler/Rogue. Almost a "Lightning Warrior", with two good saves, d10 HD, full BAB, 8 skills/level, an amazing class skill list, and decent class features. Only limited by his crummy proficiencies (and lack of casting, obviously, and utter reliance on full attack actions).
The Paladin/Guardian/Templar: Gestalt Paladin/Knight, possibly with a house rule to allow casting to be Charsima-based. A true tank class with a mountain of class features, although he's still a bit one-trick and he has a really restrictive code of honor.
So here's the questions...
1) Do the above classes feel like they'd be tier 3? Tier 2, even? Why or why not? What else do they need?
2) That's 8 classes; what do you do for the last 4? Cheat and go for Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Sorcerer, and Duskblade? Or do you gestalt more lower tiers?
3) Related to above, what other gestalts "Feel" like a real class out of the box? Some of the ones I thought of but am unsure of are...
- The Priest: Healer/Expert
- The Dragon Warrior: Dragon Shaman/Samurai or Dragon Shaman/Warrior
- The Shaman: Dragon Shaman/Adept; possible houserule for Touch to be Wisdom; or casting to be Charisma-based
- The Sage: Ninja/Monk.
- The Stalker: Ninja/Warlock, possible houserule for Ki to be Charisma, or invocations to be Wisdom.
- The Berserker: Barbarian/Samurai, probably just dropping the Daisho stuff entirely.
- The Warmage: Warrior/Warmage; isn't this just a bad duskblade? Still an option especially if you are including the Beguiler and Dread Necro as other spontaneous arcane casters instead of sorcerer.
Thoughts?