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NineThePuma
2010-11-02, 01:53 PM
So, any good gestalt to go with Ranger? I've sacrificed Casting and Animal Companion for a Crusader based Maneuver System with the Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, and Diamond Mind disciplines, but need something else to pair with it. I briefly considered Wilderness Rogue or Scout, but am unsure if I want to use them...

The character is going to be a Kobold.

FMArthur
2010-11-02, 01:56 PM
I don't really have any favourites to gestalt with ToB classes, but what I do know is this: don't pick anything with similar abilities to what you've already got (like wilderness rogue). Instead of synergy you get redundancy.

Quietus
2010-11-02, 02:00 PM
Rogue in general would be good, particularly if you did a scout/ranger on the one side; Almost full BAB, lots of dice being thrown around, though some of the abilities you'd get would be redundant. A prestige class to advance sneak attack on the Rogue side might be in order. You'd also be a bit low on the HP side of things.

Are we talking a melee or ranged based character?

NineThePuma
2010-11-02, 02:01 PM
That particular occurrence is fine. I'm looking for flavor rather than maximizing optimization. Something passive on the other side that doesn't have to be activated is good for me.'

Edit: ToB based, so Melee. I'm planning on straight Ranger, because I care more about flavor than crunch in this particular event.

claypigeons
2010-11-02, 02:15 PM
I'm planning on straight Ranger, because I care more about flavor than crunch in this particular event.

:smallmad: The mechanics of a character have little to do with flavor (barring specific circumstances). :smallsigh:

NineThePuma
2010-11-02, 02:19 PM
I want something with synergy that makes sense from a flavor perspective. So no Warlock/Dragon Shaman//Ranger/Wizard. Stuff that makes sense is preferred.

Maybe Barbarian?

Pechvarry
2010-11-02, 02:44 PM
If you want barbarian, grabbing the pounce variant and likely whirling frenzy would end up pretty fun for a dual wielding, Tob-initiating Ranger. The neat thing about Whirling frenzy's extra attack -- unlike monk's flurry, it doesn't specify the need to make a full attack action. Because of this, it's my assumption it'd work something like Snap Kick, able to give you an extra attack in any round you initiate a strike. Nice, flavor-wise, for a dual wielder (remember, if you have 2 attacks, you can make the strike with your primary weapon and the extra hit with your offhand, but since you're not actually using TWF for extra attacks, you don't take TWF penalties. Just Whirling frenzy's own -2 penalty).

silvadel
2010-11-02, 02:52 PM
Ritual Warrior or Totem Warrior(Bear) [ref monte cooks arcana evolved]

Zaakar
2010-11-02, 05:14 PM
If you want to, you can pick a caster on the other side. Ranger//Cleric would work. Clerics has a huge amout of utility spells to use out of combat and later levels you could quicken spells for in-combat flavor and power. If you can't get enough wis to cast 9th level spells, you can always pick some PrC that doesn't give full casting or multiclass.

I also think Rouge is a good idea, if you want to expand your skill-list. Gestalt types are usually good at alot of things so that's never bad. If you don't think sneak-attack is your thing, then you could pick Martial Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) instead.

Good luck and let us know what you pick :smallsmile:

Glimbur
2010-11-02, 06:16 PM
Consider Totemist or Incarnate from Magic of Incarnum. They like con, which you should have anyway, and provide many passive boosts.

Totemist: ever looked at a monster clawing someone up and thought "I wish I had claws too"? Now you can, for the low low price of two levels you can get a variety of natural attacks! Throw in more levels and you can get magic items* you choose each day, and can supercharge with a floating pool of energy which you allocate as a swift action! Act now and we'll throw in better Wild Empathy than a Druid!

Incarnate: Ever wanted to smack someone with a hammer made of Law? Or let Good actually shield you from attacks? With just a few levels, the powers of outsiders and elementals can sort of be yours! Order today and you can start every combat with a free chance to stun with your weapon, and also fire damage to anyone who hits you!

It's nontrivial to pick up the system, but once you understand it you'll find that Incarnum can play well with almost any character... mechanically anyway. The fluff is not great for every concept but fluff is mutable. Somebody was making noises about making an Incarnum for Dummies thread...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-11-02, 10:20 PM
Anything that gets a good Will save would be preferable, since that's a Ranger's only poor progression. Maybe go Soulknife (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm), and pick up Soulbow (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2) later on. If you want to stick with melee you can still grab one or two Soulbow levels for some extremely useful range capability, and go back to taking more Soulknife levels. That will give you a good Will save and slightly better HD, and not be stuck with the BAB drawback of Soulknife.

I'd probably go with anything that gets full spellcasting, maybe pick up Psion (Egoist) for some buffs or Archivist (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) to get access to all the Ranger and Druid spells. Druid would also be good, maybe go into Master of Many Forms if you want to stick to melee, or Savage Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantSavageBard) could be a fitting choice and you could provide some useful buffs to the party.

mangosta71
2010-11-02, 10:37 PM
How are you generating your stats? If you're rolling, there's a chance that a combination with a fair amount of MAD will be workable. It looks like you want to be a melee ranger, but if you're taking Shadow Hand maneuvers and stances you can safely dump str if you take Shadow Blade.

You could combine ranger with sorcerer. That gets you all strong saves and a lot of buffing power (basically take the same sorc spells that a paladin/sorcerer gestalt build would take). The egoist psion is another good choice for buffs.

avr
2010-11-02, 10:48 PM
Binders do passive buffs fairly well. Alternately, Druid would get you the animal companion back and at low levels Produce flame or Flame blade is an OK off-hand weapon.

Psyren
2010-11-02, 11:09 PM
Ardent! Strong Will and great powers, plus you can put that Wis to great use. Add a dash of monk or swordsage for AC and season to taste.

If you want to stay martial, the Soulknife/Soulbow idea is a very potent combination with Ranger. Full BAB, all good saves, add Zen Archery and a Monk's belt for Wis to damn near everything.

Salanmander
2010-11-03, 12:31 AM
For a delightful and natury caster, go with a spirit shaman! They're one of my favorite casting mechanics, basically picking a few druid spells every day to cast spontaneously. Lots of good self-buffs on that spell list, especially if you use a staff (depending on the level, of course).

Alternately, if you want more synnergy, try to find something very passive. ToB classes usually have very little trouble using up every possible kind of action, so finding something that doesn't use actions often is good. Barbarian, for HP and rage (does rage interfere with maneuvers?) might work, though I haven't looked at it that much. As mentioned, incarnate is also a good choice for passive abilities. Note that they like their swift actions, though, so you'll hamper your incarnum side if you use lots of sudden leap and concentration check saves. Monk can also work well for increasing your defenses, but may lead to MAD.

Myth
2010-11-03, 07:55 AM
If you want more Crusader flavor swap Shadow Hand for Devoted Spirit. If you do that, the best choice would be Cloistered Cleric 5 / Ruby Knight Vindicator x

Full casting - 2, Divine Impetus, Good Will save, and DMM potential should you want it.

SamsDisciple
2010-11-03, 08:09 AM
I third the motion for incarnum, the totemist blends right with a natury melee guy for flavor, gives a lot of persistent buffs like magic items, and is just dang cool!

Fouredged Sword
2010-11-03, 08:39 AM
Duskblade could work nicely. So could bard. Adds a dash of light armored spellcasting to your mix.

I would suggest a dip in spellthief and start takeing levels of duskblade.

Tael
2010-11-03, 08:44 AM
Druiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiid! or Totemist. Or Ardent. Or Cleric.

I really like Totemist for this though.

Duke of URL
2010-11-03, 09:13 AM
I can't speak to the Incarnum suggestions, as I have little experience there. Otherwise, some options to consider:

1) Druid. You wanna be a combat monster, here's your best option. Use the spellcasting passively, primarily for buffing. You get an animal companion again, and at full power. You'll still be able to initiate while wildshaped, so you could be a bear doing Tiger Claw maneuvers.

2) Monk. Their active abilities generally suck, but Monks have some of the best passive abilities in the game, along with all-around good saves. They should always be considered as an option in gestalt, especially for a character that already relies somewhat on Wisdom. Probably best as a 1- or 2-level dip.

3) Barbarian (Lion Totem). Great 1-level dip.

4) Warlock. There are some nifty 24-hour buffs available as least invocations. Charisma isn't important since you're not relying on save DCs.

I don't really like Rogue, simply because it doesn't give you much, other than Sneak Attack, that you don't already get. Maybe trapfinding, which isn't bad, but in a gestalt game, I'd imagine the other players might very well have that covered. Still, it's flavorful, at least as a 1-level dip to get trapfinding (and your Ranger skill list should allow you to keep up the important skills).

NineThePuma
2010-11-03, 10:13 AM
Incarnum or Binding are what'll seriously looking at. Warlock I could glance over too.

I'd like to note that, without Spellcasting or Animal companion, my Ranger probably has no WIS. And I abandoned those on purpose. They complicate my character needlessly.

... Oh, and Soulknife/Bow. I'll number crunch later today.

Psyren
2010-11-03, 10:26 AM
If you dropped spells to keep things simple, Binding and Incarnum probably aren't the way to go. And if you tanked Wis, you won't get a whole lot out Ardent or Soulbow (to a lesser extent) either.

Maybe go with Rogue...

Kansaschaser
2010-11-03, 10:49 AM
Ranger 20

The for the extra classes...

Scout 5 / Wizard 5 / Swiftblade 10

Take these feats: Improved Skirmish, Swift Hunter, Dodge, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Many Shot, Greater Many Shot (Expanded Psionics Handbook), Relicguard Spell (bonus wizard metamagic spell)

As a favored enemy, choose Elemental, Undead, Ooze, Plant, and Construct (not necessarily in that order).

With the Swift Hunter, you can then add your Skirmish damage to your favored enemy. So basically, you can deal skirmish damage to everything. I like to call this build the Hunter of the Unliving.

With the Greater Many Shot feat, you can add your skirmish damage to every arrow fired and you can fire each arrow at different targets if you want.

Get a bow the the Splitting and Exit Wound abilites.

So, if you move 20 feat, this is what you can do.

You Fire 4 arrow with Greater Many Shot. Each arrow would deal 1d6 damage plus 7d6 skirmish damage at level 20.

But wait, there's more. Having Swiftblade adds 2d6 more skirmish damage for a total of 10d6 damage.

But wait, there's more. Once fired, the Splitting quality doubles the arrows in mid flight, each one dealing as much damage as the original. So, that would make for 8 arrows.

But wait, there's more. With the Exit Wound ability, once an arrow hits the target, it can travel through and strike another opponent behind them for the same ammount of damage.

But wait, there's more. You CAN add more damage by giving the bow Flaming, Frost, Acidic, and/or Shocking.

But wait, there's more. As a Swiftblade, you can cast Haste so that it stays active in an Anti-Magic Zone. On the first round of combat you cast a swift haste, then a standard Anti-Magic Zone with the Relic Guard metamagic feat.

Your items will still function, but all your opponents protective spells and supernatural abilities will not. Run up to your opponent so that you are 10ft away, then blast them with 8 arrows that deal 10d6 damage each.

But wait, there's still more. Since you are a Swiftblade and you have haste cast, you get an additional standard action. So you can send another 8 arrows hurtling toward your opponents face for a total of 16 arrows, dealing a total of at least 160d6 damage.

With all your defensive abilities with the Swiftblade, you can generally avoid attacks of opportunity with ease.

grarrrg
2010-11-03, 11:38 AM
NOTE: For all of you suggesting WIS based builds, he traded in his spellcasting, and thus is NOT likely to have the awesome WIS score you think he will. Of course, he hasn't posted his stats, so I may very well be wrong. But it does irk me when some people only read the title and first sentence and start going off on topics and miss an important bit of info like that.


So, any good gestalt to go with Ranger? I've sacrificed Casting and Animal Companion for a Crusader based Maneuver System with the Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon, and Diamond Mind disciplines, but need something else to pair with it.

It would REALLY help if we knew your Stat scores/rolls/point-buy.

Ranger good:
Full bab, d8 hp, 6 skill points, good Fort and Ref, Maneuvers
Ranger bad:
d8 hp, poor Will, no spells

Ideally we're looking for better HP, good Will save, and some kind of Buffing spell casting.

For Core:
Barbarian gives HP and Rage, not sure if "Rage + Maneuvers" works or not.
Fighter gives HP and bonus feats, but stop at Fighter 2.
Monk + Martial-Ranger, all you really gain is Will save, it's probably best to keep Armor and whatever Weapon you like.
Rogue is good for the Sneak Attack, and available skills, but not for much else. (take Spellthief or Kobold Rogue Sub-level instead)
Any kind of caster would give you spells and good Will, but action economy can become a problem.

Not core:
A Factotum dip with Able Learner can set you for life on available skills. (nm, Kobold) Factotum good for a dip or three for the skill access and a couple abilities.
Marshall might be good for a 1 or 2 level dip, if you have a decent Cha score, you'd get 1 or 2 Auras and a good will save.
Psion or Wilder would get you Will and Manifesting.
Spellthief, level 1 is strictly better than level 1 of Rogue. You get Will instead of Ref, similar skill list, Sneak Attack, Trapfinding, all for the loss of 2 skill points.
While straight Rogue is not the best idea the Kobold Rogue Substitution (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=3) levels may be worth a look. Also worth a look is Kobold Ranger 1 (you already traded away the other Kobold Ranger 'bonuses').

I also like Kansaschaser's Swiftblade Idea, although depending on your DM's Prestige rulings, you may be able to fudge the entry requirements and take Swiftblade 1 at level 6!
5 Levels of Wizard gets you the Skills and Haste requirements.
5 Levels of Ranger gets you 5 Bab, Martial Weapon, and you can spend 2 feats on Dodge and Mobility.
If you're DM rules "Each side must independently qualify" then throw in a level or 2 of Fighter, and you can still qualify by level 8.

Coidzor
2010-11-03, 12:09 PM
Monk can get you feats, 2 levels of good saves and unarmed strike damage that can be advanced by your Ranger levels with the feat 'Ascetic Hunter.'

Factotum as a dip can give you all skills as class skills, opening up Iajutsu Focus, UMD, and other skill-based tricks, and also skill tricks, when used with the feat 'Able Learner.' Of course, that requires allowing kobolds to take able learner. :/ Also, Intelligence to various checks to make up for your low natural strength (so you could make an int-based tripper if you really wanted to). I'm assuming you'll want to keep Int because kobolds are weak in the arms and rangers have good skill synergy for Int....

Scout can give you swift huntery goodness. Scout + a dip in Rogue can get you swift ambushery goodness along with the swift huntery goodness(without the feat) but require you to keep up with the Scout which is probably not the best idea even with 8+ skill points.

Rogue is also nice, either for extra dice with flanking with favored enemies like undead, elementals, constructs, etc. or for bonus fighter feats plus the extra skills. Might be a nice racial substitution for kobold rogues as well. Can get you trapfinding or poison use if you've a mind for either... Poison use with poison crafting could be nice, esp. with a crafting cost reduction feat or just having a handled animal that can produce poison for you to use.

Hmm, could progress a mount from which to fight with wild cohort or just using handle animal + wild empathy + warbeast... You gave up animal companion though, and I can't think of anything progressable by class features other than Paladin 5 or druid 1. x.x Maybe silverwood outrider (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031202a)...

Melayl
2010-11-03, 02:01 PM
I second (5th?) Totemist. A lot of good claw attacks that synergize well with Tiger Claw, good self-buffs and protective abilities, plus good movement options.

NineThePuma
2010-11-03, 02:18 PM
Yeah, I have dumped WIS.

32 PB. 7th Level

I want a MELEE build =V I can't stress this enough.

Either Barb or Rogue, I guess...

Unless teleporting counts as movement for skirmish?

Grynning
2010-11-03, 02:23 PM
Never mind, I somehow completely misread the first post.

Coidzor
2010-11-03, 02:25 PM
Dumped Wis? So you're not planning on casting any Ranger spells?

Sacrificed casting and animal companion (which is a shame, because, dire weasel kobold animal companion is fairly nice) in exchange for maneuver progression.

Granted, I don't know a whole lot about the maneuver side of things, but some additonal thoughts.


Unless teleporting counts as movement for skirmish?

Good question. I can't recall the RAW, but I'm thinking no. If you can get it swung with the DM, shadow pouncing would become more interesting. Unless shadowpouncing already qualifies...


32 PB. 7th Level

I want a MELEE build =V I can't stress this enough.

Either Barb or Rogue, I guess...

Ok, so Totemist 2 with the stuff to get natural weapons; Monk 1-2 for evasion(trade ranger's lvl9 evasion for spell reflection), will save, bonus (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm#bonusFeat)feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les), and unarmed strike+flurry; Rogue 1-2 for sneak attack and trapfinding and maybe evasion at lvl 2, Sneak Attack Thug Fighter for +1d6 sneak attack(basically a placeholder), and Whirling Frenzy Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 for pounce and whirling frenzy.

Totemist 2/Monk1-2/Rogue1-2/SneakAtackThug Fighter1/Barb 1

Lots of attacks and some riders in the form of sneak attack, with craven, that'd be your dice (1d6-4d6 depending upon how much you want it) + 7 on every attack you make while flanking. That's pretty good if you can reliably flank. If you go to Rogue 3 you can free up some of the pressure on your favored enemies by getting penetrating strike(Dungeonscape I believe) instead of trap sense.

grarrrg
2010-11-03, 03:16 PM
Yeah, I have dumped WIS.
32 PB. 7th Level
I want a MELEE build =V I can't stress this enough.
Either Barb or Rogue, I guess...

If Rage+Maneuvers is allowed, then Barb is good for a few levels.
I admit I am not that familiar with the Totemist, as that seems to be getting a lot of votes.

Kobold Racial Substitution Levels (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060106a&page=3) Go Crazy
Kobold Fighter, levels 1,2,4, level 1 is debatable, but 2 and 4 are definately worth considering. Kobold-Fighter 2 trades bonus feat for +2 Con, and Kob-Figh 4 trades bonus feat for +2 Str. VERY tasty.
Kobold Ranger 1 has a minor trade-off. Nothing great.
Kobold Rogue (1,3,8) is strictly better than straight Rogue.

Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=1) is good for a level or 2, gets you Will save, Sneak attack, and a couple abilities.

Sample Build:
I'll leave the specific brand of Kobold race up to you, for stats, Good Str/Dex/Con, dump Cha, but keep Int (skills) and Wis (will save is your weak point) at 10 or above if possible. Your final Saves depend on how your DM does Gestalt Save Progression, but however he does it you will have good/great Fort and Ref.

First level Fighter//Kobold-Rogue, gets you the maximum in HP and Skill points at first level. (your call on Kobold-Fighter 1, or reg-Fighter 1, lose Heavy armor and feat, gain Spear Focus and Dodge-feat)
Levels 2-7 on one side will be Martial-Ranger (Kobold-Ranger 1 is optional), I assume combat style with be two-weapon).
The other side, in no particular order are Rogue 2, Kobold-Rogue 3, Kobold-Figher 2 & 4, Fighter 3, and Spellthief 1.

Final build is Ranger 6/Fighter 4/Rogue 3/Spellthief 1. You will have 4d10+3d8 hd, full Bab, 3 levels of 8sp, 4 levels of 6sp, all levels have good Fort/Ref saves, 3d6 Sneak attack, +2 Str, +2 con, minor spell stealing, and whatever Maneuvers Ranger 6 gives you.

I recommend you take a second level of Spellthief at some point, you'll get better Will-save, Spellgrace+1 (+1 all saves vs. spells, helps with Will), and the ability to steal Buffs off your opponents (or friends).

You will get Trapfinding twice, but Kobold-Rogue Trapfinding is strictly better, and I don't think you can trade Spellthief-Trapfinding for an ACF.

Kylarra
2010-11-03, 03:24 PM
Dragonfire adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) gets you a breath weapon for those days that you need a ranged weapon, good will, is con based, and some invocations for all day buffs or utility.

gbprime
2010-11-03, 03:47 PM
If you're wanting to keep it simple, pick up fighter for the bonus feats, simple variant fighter for the sneak attack, or even Dragon Shaman for the auras.