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jebob
2010-11-02, 02:51 PM
Ok, my players are a bunch of racist 'do-gooders' (IC at least) who think nothing of butchering anything thats not human, elven etc.

How can I make them realise that slaughtering goblin babies is an evil act?

jiriku
2010-11-02, 02:53 PM
Tell them so?

WhiteShark
2010-11-02, 03:02 PM
Have them go on a mission with a celestial who is horrified by the acts they commit against other races?

Silus
2010-11-02, 03:04 PM
Have them go on a mission with a celestial who is horrified by the acts they commit against other races?

Ugh, babysitter...

Diarmuid
2010-11-02, 03:05 PM
Have there be IC consequences for their actions.

WarKitty
2010-11-02, 03:06 PM
A trap misfires, killing everything around. A goblin mother sacrifices herself to save her child. With her dying breath she begs the PC's (as the only ones left alive) to take care of her baby.

hamishspence
2010-11-02, 03:06 PM
Have them meet devils who have come to applaud their evil deeds and suggest they keep it up?

AtwasAwamps
2010-11-02, 03:09 PM
A trap misfires, killing everything around. A goblin mother sacrifices herself to save her child. With her dying breath she begs the PC's (as the only ones left alive) to take care of her baby.

You are a beautiful beautiful ******* and I love you.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-11-02, 03:10 PM
Have them go on a mission with a celestial who is horrified by the acts they commit against other races?

Have a Celestial who is horrified by the acts they commit against other races go on a mission to stop them?

Edit: also, WarKitty's solution.

Sipex
2010-11-02, 03:11 PM
A trap misfires, killing everything around. A goblin mother sacrifices herself to save her child. With her dying breath she begs the PC's (as the only ones left alive) to take care of her baby.

This is the best solution I think.

arrowhen
2010-11-02, 03:12 PM
Do the players *want* the game to be about the moral ramifications of their actions? If they just want to kill monsters, why do you keep throwing babies at them instead?

Silus
2010-11-02, 03:14 PM
Do the players *want* the game to be about the moral ramifications of their actions? If they just want to kill monsters, why do you keep throwing babies at them instead?

A very valid point...

Shademan
2010-11-02, 03:15 PM
HAVE they killed goblin babies?
in that case: goblin paladins!

Susano-wo
2010-11-02, 03:20 PM
Yeah, I think the real problem that needs to be solved is the [apparent] disconnect between what you want and what they want.

If they just wanna kill them some evil humanoids etc, and you want (god I'm trying not to make one side sound better than the other...but I don't know how) moral implications to matter...well, either you guys need to compromise together, or get different groups to play with...

jebob
2010-11-02, 03:23 PM
A trap misfires, killing everything around. A goblin mother sacrifices herself to save her child. With her dying breath she begs the PC's (as the only ones left alive) to take care of her baby.

A good idea. How about combining that with a father who enters the story some time afterwards asking for the child? He could then become a villain (hero?) if they left it in a field someplace.


Do the players *want* the game to be about the moral ramifications of their actions? If they just want to kill monsters, why do you keep throwing babies at them instead?

I want to shake them out of their stereotypes and make them think for a change (they're a very hacky/slashy group). I'll try it, but I do need to be aware that I could bore them or lead them to inaction if every action comes back to haunt them.

Also: 10 views, 11 posts. Woah

kyoryu
2010-11-02, 03:23 PM
Set up an adventure where a group of evil humans/elves/etc. is attacking an innocent goblin tribe.

Or, just accept that they like evil to be color-coded for their convenience, and let goblins be evil.

Or, talk to them OOC and inform them that, in this game world, all goblins are not inherently evil, and they are in fact just another sentient race, albeit one that has strong evil tendencies.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-11-02, 03:27 PM
Have them meet devils who have come to applaud their evil deeds and suggest they keep it up?

This would be hilarious and I second it, though a "Celestials try to kill disable you after you slaughtered that orc village, including non-combatants" arc could be good fun.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-11-02, 03:32 PM
I want to shake them out of their stereotypes and make them think for a change (they're a very hacky/slashy group). I'll try it, but I do need to be aware that I could bore them or lead them to inaction if every action comes back to haunt them.
The easiest way to handle this is to allow their reputation to haunt them. First they hear stories about their bloody escapades; then Good institutions start shunning them; then Evil institutions start offering them perks.

However, you must ask yourself why they are committing attrocities. Is it because they don't understand their Alignments? Do they mean to be Good but don't understand that Good means "respecting life?" If so, the above strategy should "scare them straight" - so to speak.

However, if they're simply not interested in Good vs. Evil, then the above strategy is going to be unproductive and - quite possibly - take a horrifying turn when they follow the path into Hell. Before it gets to that point, talk to your Players about what they're interested in getting out of a game; ideally you can infer this by how they play but it never hurts to just straight out ask them. Bad comes to worst, you realize you're not interested in running the sort of game they're interested in playing and y'all do something else.

dsmiles
2010-11-02, 03:34 PM
A trap misfires, killing everything around. A goblin mother sacrifices herself to save her child. With her dying breath she begs the PC's (as the only ones left alive) to take care of her baby.

Congratulations, ma'am, you win the thread. This is the most moving scenario in here.

nedz
2010-11-02, 03:38 PM
Have them meet devils who have come to applaud their evil deeds and suggest they keep it up?
+1

How about a Fiendish Bard who inspires them ?

The next time they embark up such an action, have them hear bagpipes in the distance. They feel inspired by the music. Only afterwards, when they seek out who aided them, do they discover the nature of musician.

This should raise questions and lead to some soul searching RP.

Actually its also quite likely that they will attack I suppose :smallsigh:

In which event: the musician teleports/planeshifts out, only to return at some future time during another episode of evil.

Choco
2010-11-02, 03:57 PM
Do the players *want* the game to be about the moral ramifications of their actions? If they just want to kill monsters, why do you keep throwing babies at them instead?

Maybe they just want to kill babies. Templated babies FTW!

Silus
2010-11-02, 03:58 PM
Maybe they just want to kill babies. Templated babies FTW!

My Paladin was 12 years old, so it could be possible...:smallconfused:

SPoD
2010-11-02, 04:07 PM
Loan them a copy of Start of Darkness.

Alternately, just stop throwing goblin babies at them. Give them enemies that really ARE fine to slaughter indiscriminately, like undead or demons. If your players want to hack-and-slash it, why take it upon yourself to change them?

kyoryu
2010-11-02, 04:17 PM
As a more subtle way to introduce the idea of goblins as non-evil, how about placing an obviously Good (due to context) NPC in a non-combat scenario?

The PCs enter the Temple of Pelor, to find the goblin preist Geeska, who tells the PCs tales of his family and how much he loves them.

To get really nasty, have Geeska tell them about these horrible raiders that have been destroying the homes of his family, who have forsaken the evil ways of most of their kin and have been struggling to be accepted members of civilization. This might be too anvilicious for a first encounter, and might work after they've gotten to know Geeska a bit.

Goudaa
2010-11-02, 04:23 PM
As others have pointed out - for many the game of DnD isn't so much an RPG but a pen and paper videogame.

If that isn't your style, politely inform them monster hack n slash is boring for you and suggest Neverwinter Nights as an alternative. =)

Reluctance
2010-11-02, 04:31 PM
Alternately, just stop throwing goblin babies at them. Give them enemies that really ARE fine to slaughter indiscriminately, like undead or demons. If your players want to hack-and-slash it, why take it upon yourself to change them?

This. Sometimes people just want the ability to bash heads without annoying moral ambiguity. Leave the option open rather than trying to force anyone to play "right".

And if you want your players to see humanoids as more than just vermin, don't count on the "aww, cute lil' babies" factor. Make the adult humanoids act like reasonable members of (an admittedly evil) society rather than uniform antagonistic cannon fodder. If you want something without a clear right side, use your usual good-aligned demihumans on both sides. If your players' eyes gloss over at this, get back to some good old fashioned monster bashing or start looking for a new group.

MickJay
2010-11-03, 01:50 PM
I second sending a party of Good-aligned goblins with class levels against your players. :smallbiggrin:

Kylarra
2010-11-03, 01:52 PM
I think you really need to just have an OOC discussion with your players about the type of game that they and you are expecting to be played here.

Yukitsu
2010-11-03, 01:58 PM
Years of gaming have basically just ingrained a small truism that goblins et al. are evil and should be killed just for being goblins et al. The natural system sets them up to be so, so unless you actually say your goblins are speshul and aren't actually evil, then you'll generally have to tell people this. And if they aren't, you should tell them what is, so they can go to that village and have fun burning it down instead.

If you're going for "there is no evil" blabbidy blah, I'd kind of question why the world needs adventurers at all.

Susano-wo
2010-11-03, 02:09 PM
um...who says the world needs adventurers? And if it does, who says it needs them for the purposes of killing evil creatures?
killing something because it pings on the Pally's evilometer is also evil, so a character isn't justified (morally speaking) in slaughtering goblin villages, no matter how always evil they are.

Callista
2010-11-03, 03:44 PM
Are the PCs biased because they've never had the chance to sit down and talk with a goblin (etc.) who actually isn't trying to kill them? If so, the solution may be simple--set up that kind of a meeting and let them get to know the goblin in question.

One of my characters was extremely prejudiced against the undead in a world where undead didn't necessarily have to be evil. My DM set up a situation where we ended up getting into peaceful contact with a baelnorn (this would be a Good-aligned elven lich who stays undead to help their nation)--the problem was solved because my character had simply not had the opportunity to talk to someone who was undead and not malevolent. However, my character was the only one in the party with a very strong bias, so the rest of the party held her back until she got the chance to get her bearings.

You could also be dealing with a simple case of CRPG syndrome--you know, that mindset wherein new tabletop RPG players are still of the belief that monsters are there to be killed for XP, and haven't really made the paradigm shift that allows negotiation and the idea that their opponents have (fictional) lives of their own. You usually know this is the case if they aren't really role-playing and generally tending to do things that are normal in CRPGs but nonsensical in the real world--trying to sell a +5 sword in a 50-person village, attacking by default anything that isn't encountered in town, or not batting an eye at the idea of meeting living monsters in a dungeon sealed for centuries.

hewhosaysfish
2010-11-03, 04:18 PM
However, you must ask yourself why they are committing attrocities. Is it because they don't understand their Alignments? Do they mean to be Good but don't understand that Good means "respecting life?" If so, the above strategy should "scare them straight" - so to speak.

However, if they're simply not interested in Good vs. Evil, then the above strategy is going to be unproductive and - quite possibly - take a horrifying turn when they follow the path into Hell. Before it gets to that point, talk to your Players about what they're interested in getting out of a game; ideally you can infer this by how they play but it never hurts to just straight out ask them. Bad comes to worst, you realize you're not interested in running the sort of game they're interested in playing and y'all do something else.


This. Sometimes people just want the ability to bash heads without annoying moral ambiguity. Leave the option open rather than trying to force anyone to play "right".

And if you want your players to see humanoids as more than just vermin, don't count on the "aww, cute lil' babies" factor. Make the adult humanoids act like reasonable members of (an admittedly evil) society rather than uniform antagonistic cannon fodder. If you want something without a clear right side, use your usual good-aligned demihumans on both sides. If your players' eyes gloss over at this, get back to some good old fashioned monster bashing or start looking for a new group.

Are you advocating discussion? Reasoning? Understanding other people's views?!
Who are you people and what have you done with the real Internet!?!?!?

Ilmryn
2010-11-03, 04:24 PM
Just have them read this. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/06252005/)

Tengu_temp
2010-11-03, 04:42 PM
Just have them read this. (http://www.goblinscomic.com/06252005/)

I love how this comic starts with the supposed heroes murdering an escaping paladin in a world where it's established that all paladins (except for Kore) are LG.

Seriously, I think Goblins does a very bad job at morality. The author's intention is to show a world where everyone can be good or evil, no matter their race, but it all comes out as "humans indiscriminately killing monsters is bad, but monsters indiscriminately killing humans is a-okay" instead.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-11-03, 05:02 PM
You know, I'd not considered the fleeing Paladin at the beginning of the comic. His adventuring group did attack the Goblins' warcamp, but I'm not sure that justifies slaying him when he was clearly in retreat. However, I'm pretty sure his group's actions were not in keeping with the Paladin's code, either.

I disagree with the "Humans indiscriminately killing monsters is bad, but monsters indiscriminately killing humans is a-ok." bit though. The Goblin Adventuring Party took actions necessary to protect innocent civilian humans in the battle of Brassmoon city. And the elite guards did ding on Big Ears' Detect Evil, though I'm not sure that justifies their wanton slaughter. But I don't think the GAP have ever initiated combat, they've only responded to the violence (and perhaps immediate threat of violence, I haven't archive-binged it recently) of others in kind.

Kore is an interesting case, and I have suspicions that he is (unknowingly) a Blackguard or anti-Paladin.

Callista
2010-11-03, 05:04 PM
The paladin in question is a PC; and like many PCs in Goblinsverse, he can transcend the rules of the universe by cheating. Minmax, for example, is a 1st-level human with 22 strength who traded his ability to read for a +1 attack bonus...

Susano-wo
2010-11-03, 05:05 PM
not to sound confrontational...but what comic are you reading?
No monsters that indiscriminantly kill humans are protrayed as good, as best I can remember. The scene you are referring to is a non-canonical joke gag that doesn't even involve any of the actual goblin characters, just generic goblins

Oh and we only see them calling dibs while hunting after him. We have no idea what preceded it (honestly, I'm more bothered by the bit having nothign to do with attacks of opportunity, than any supposed moral faults:smallwink:)
Looking at the next strip, if it *is* canonical, they were attacked by the adventurers. Sure they are not exactly remorseful about killing them, but I'd say that's more 'non-good' than evil.

Coidzor
2010-11-03, 05:14 PM
Yeah... have the gobbos set up so they're smart enough to have an escape route for their vimmin and children so that they're gone by the time the PCs breach the defenses so you only run into them in helms deep situations or where they're combatants (or, y'know, both).

Also, getting a reputation for breaking the rules and slaughtering babies is a good way to get a negative reputation RPwise, as amongst anyone other than bitter racial enemies or those of questionable mores it's going to be viewed as distasteful to put it mildly, and to have so many monsters/people coming to get them that they don't have time to go off and killing more gobbo or hobo babies.

Accersitus
2010-11-03, 05:20 PM
Have a group of goblins/other monstrous humanoids from a LN/LE
Goblin/Non standard humanoid society (possibly from a
larger underground city), and have them arrest the
PCs for indiscriminately slaughtering any monstrous humanoids.
Have the group confronting them try to make them come willingly
or capture them alive, and show the players monstrous humanoids
can be more than chunks of XP (although if they are captured,
they are most likely facing a sentence of death or slavery).

DaedalusMkV
2010-11-03, 05:26 PM
Have a Celestial who is horrified by the acts they commit against other races go on a mission to stop them?

Edit: also, WarKitty's solution.


Have them meet devils who have come to applaud their evil deeds and suggest they keep it up?
Why not combine these and go completely over the top? A Celestial shows up to talk to them about the error of their ways at exactly the same time as a Devil shows up to offer them a job. They get about one sentence in before they each realize the other is there and start fighting. It's fun and educational!

Tengu_temp
2010-11-03, 05:53 PM
On Goblins: I know that this comic tells you about good humans and evil monsters, handwaves the killing of the guards by all of them being evil, et cetera et cetera, but it does an awful job at actually practicing what it preaches. Show me a single instance of monster-on-human violence that the comic didn't consider okay, and a single instance of human-on-monster violence that the comic did consider okay.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-11-03, 05:55 PM
I know it's not quite what you meant, but Kore's slaying the dwarf child was a case of monster on humanoid killing that the comic thought wasn't ok.



Why not combine these and go completely over the top? A Celestial shows up to talk to them about the error of their ways at exactly the same time as a Devil shows up to offer them a job. They get about one sentence in before they each realize the other is there and start fighting. It's fun and educational!

The reason not to combine this is you don't want to turn it into a cutscene.

Tyndmyr
2010-11-03, 06:08 PM
Technically, some of the monsters killed by minmax are potrayed as nothing but violent brutes, and no judgement is attached to him killing them.

However, the comic does follow the goblins protagonists, so yeah...you get more examples of goblins doing right and those they fight doing wrong. That's normal. You get exactly the opposite in most strips.

Coidzor
2010-11-03, 06:11 PM
I know it's not quite what you meant, but Kore's slaying the dwarf child was a case of monster on humanoid killing that the comic thought wasn't ok.

That's humanoid on humanoid and humanoid on monster. So... Yeah.

Susano-wo
2010-11-03, 06:13 PM
well, prior to rereading the archives (which sounds fun anyway--I love that comic:P), I can give the example of the ...crap, can't rememebr the name...the goblin clan with the chiefteness with one wing. We haven't seen them be violent to humans yet, but they are pretty clearly evil, as a group, and I imagine they will be pretty violent once they meet up with humans in the story.
Also, though he's their Jayne, K'sless I am pretty sure would fall under your category, were he to encounter humans without the rest of his group

And no, I can't think of any nonmonster on monster killings that have been portrayed as ok...wait! they are demons, buts its totally OK for Minmax to kill the minor demon things., but aside from that, mostly no the non monsater on monster killings are done for desconstructionist purposes. Its not the kind of story that focuses on how nonmonsters can be good--its about monsters not being all evil.
That being said, I do want to see some nonmonsters killing monsters that is ok outside of a supernatural evil context

I think he's referring to Kore's "Complete Monster" status...and dammit, I couldn't figure out how to freakin search on TVtropes :smallfurious:

Coidzor
2010-11-03, 06:18 PM
well, prior to rereading the archives (which sounds fun anyway--I love that comic:P), I can give the example of the ...crap, can't rememebr the name...the goblin clan with the chiefteness with one wing. We haven't seen them be violent to humans yet, but they are pretty clearly evil, as a group, and I imagine they will be pretty violent once they meet up with humans in the story.

The Vipers. They're shown as justified, or at least to have a freudian excuse, in their attitude towards peace with humans because their chieftainess survived being brutally maimed by them after offering them nothing but peace and harmony. I would say that their portrayal is that of more sympathetic knights templar than clearly and unequivocally evil.

Tengu_temp
2010-11-03, 06:18 PM
I know it's not quite what you meant, but Kore's slaying the dwarf child was a case of monster on humanoid killing that the comic thought wasn't ok.


Yeah, a dwarf being the most irredeemably evil character in the comic only reinforces my point.


Technically, some of the monsters killed by minmax are potrayed as nothing but violent brutes, and no judgement is attached to him killing them.

Have we seen any? I only recall some non-sapient creatures that don't really fit the bill due to just being wild beasts.


However, the comic does follow the goblins protagonists, so yeah...you get more examples of goblins doing right and those they fight doing wrong. That's normal. You get exactly the opposite in most strips.

I can understand that. However, at the same time the comic preaches the notion of all races having the potential for both good and evil, and it wouldn't hurt if it has actually shown us more of that notion, instead of reversing "humans good, goblins evil" into "goblins good, humans evil (or at best stupid and misguided)".

Susano-wo
2010-11-03, 06:20 PM
I thin kyou are missing the point of the comic, Tengu. The focus is on deconstructing the idea that goblins specifically and monsters in genereal are areally just evil critters, ok to murder on a whim.

So that's what it focuses on, which is not a surprise.

Oh and lets not forget that he's a Drawven Paladin...deconstructing the idea that paladins must by their very nature be good, though he is an anamoly within the goblins world as well.

Planety of sources show nonmonster violence against monsters as ok. This comic tries to play with that:smallsmile:

and Vipers, thanks Coidzor! Though I did forget the freudian excuse thing. Well, there's anther reason to reread ^ ^

Tengu_temp
2010-11-03, 06:24 PM
Yes, instead the comic says "most humans are evil and okay to kill on a whim", even if that's not the author's intent.

The discussion got quite sidetracked, didn't it? It would probably be best to continue with the Goblins stuff in another thread.