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View Full Version : Counterspelling - can Cleric + Incandescent Champion work?



true_shinken
2010-11-02, 09:16 PM
So, I was wondering.
Divine Defiance is awesome. Really. Immediate action counterspells are amazing.
Soultouched Spellcasting adds invested essentia to dispelling checks. Incandescent Champion has the Incarnum Overload ability, adding Charisma bonus to the invested essentia of a single feat - basically adding +Cha to your dispel check. It's a free action, so you can use it when you roll badly.

My current build idea is azurin Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 3/Incandescent Champion 4. BAB +9, casts a 6th level Cleric. Main focus is on Charisma, of course - you use it for extra turn attempts (for Divine Defiance), smites from Ordained Champion, emergency dispels from Incarnum Overload and Unbearable Countenance. Domains are War and Inquisition.
He only needs Soultouched Spellcasting (level 1) and Divine Defiance (level 3) as feats; Psycarnum Infusion never hurts, but being actually psionic would be a major pain.

With a dispelling chord and a ring of spell battle, this guy is capable of dispelling your effects while still kicking your ass with his physical prowess.
Oh, he is designed as an NPC for my world, in which there are no 6th level spells so CL usually caps around 12-16.

Thoughts on this? Way to improve this? I actually want this guy to remain 11th level.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-11-02, 10:25 PM
You are optimal enough for most play. Optimize more and your DM might :(

See my build compendium on BG for my CoDzilla. It has as much auto-dispelling as you could ever want.

Psyren
2010-11-02, 10:28 PM
You are optimal enough for most play. Optimize more and your DM might :(

I think he IS the DM...

true_shinken
2010-11-02, 10:29 PM
You are optimal enough for most play. Optimize more and your DM might :(

See my build compendium on BG for my CoDzilla. It has as much auto-dispelling as you could ever want.

It's actually an NPC to throw against my party. They have defeated a particularly vengeful tiefling and she is getting a band to counter them - this one is supposed to match the party's Artificer, focused on blasting that gishes on lesser encounters to save charges from his wand.
I'm also looking for someone that can realiably get someone flat-footed (grease won't work) and use touch attacks (flame blade/dagger is my starting point; maybe on a wand for a lightsaber)

Keld Denar
2010-11-02, 10:34 PM
Hmmmm, I wonder if I could splice this into my Eldritch Disciple combo. With ED, you can get the Dispel Magic invocation, then counterspell with that + Divine Defiance while kicking ass with Eldritch Glaive.

Need moar feats...

Darrin
2010-11-02, 10:47 PM
Divine Soultouch feat (MoI). As a free action spend a turn attempt to gain 1 essentia and increase the capacities of all your soulmelds, incarnum feats, and essentia-based abilities by 1.

Scarab of Aradros (Weapons of Legacy p. 139). 1500 GP, +1 untyped bonus on caster level checks to dispel/counter.

Psyren
2010-11-02, 11:12 PM
Hmmmm, I wonder if I could splice this into my Eldritch Disciple combo. With ED, you can get the Dispel Magic invocation, then counterspell with that + Divine Defiance while kicking ass with Eldritch Glaive.

Need moar feats...

I think you can only counterspell with the Break Enchantment invocation, and that one's Dark so you won't get it for a while.

Keld Denar
2010-11-03, 12:07 AM
You are mistaken:

Voracious Dispelling
<snip> You can use Dispel Magic as the spell. <snip>

You can always counterspell with Dispel Magic, and Voracious Dispelling is EXACTLY identical to Dispel Magic except for the damage it deals when you dispel an ongoing effect. If you use it to counterspell, that second statement simply doesn't apply.

Toptomcat
2010-11-03, 01:36 AM
Wee Jas temple affiliation power (Complete Champion) allows for an actionless, spelless, automatically successful counterspell 1/encounter.

true_shinken
2010-11-03, 04:16 AM
Hmmmm, I wonder if I could splice this into my Eldritch Disciple combo. With ED, you can get the Dispel Magic invocation, then counterspell with that + Divine Defiance while kicking ass with Eldritch Glaive.

Need moar feats...
Don't think I could do it by level 11, not without dropping Incandescent Champion :/

Fax Celestis
2010-11-03, 09:21 AM
There's an alternate class feature in the War of the Burning Sky book from EN publishing. Third party, but fair use quote here:


REBUKE MAGIC
Level: Cleric 1 or blackguard 3. Must channel negative energy.
Replaces: You do not gain the ability to turn or rebuke undead, and you do not have Diplomacy or Heal as class skills.

Benefit: You can rebuke magic a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier.

Rebuking magic can dispel ongoing magical effects as the spell dispel magic, and can counter spells if you ready an action to use this ability. This ability can affect spell-like abilities and magic items (as well as psionic powers, psi-like abilities, and psionic items, assuming psionics-magic transparency), but not supernatural abilities. Rebuking magic is a standard action.

When rebuking magic, you must choose a single spell to dispel or counter, or a single magic item to suppress. You can also target a creature and attempt to dispel one effect active on that creature. You make a dispel check, rolling 1d20 + cleric level against a DC equal to 11 + the spell’s caster level. (Paladins are treated as clerics of their level –3, and blackguards as clerics of their level –2.) If you succeed, the effect is dispelled, countered, or suppressed, as if you had succeed in using dispel magic on it. If used to target a single creature, make a dispel check against each effect active on that creature, starting with the one with the highest caster level, until one effect is dispelled. This use of rebuke magic does not affect magic items. A given rebuke can dispel no more than one single effect.

You gain Intimidate and Sense Motive as class skills.

Special: A character who channels positive energy (such as paladins and good-aligned clerics) can try to counteract your rebuke ability by using a turning attempt to gird another character’s magic with positive energy. The character makes a girding roll: 1d20 + cleric level (+2 bonus for having 5 or more ranks of Knowledge [arcana]). The dispel check to rebuke the next spell or spell-like ability the affected character uses must beat the result of the girding roll if the girding roll is higher than the normal DC. In the area of a hallow spell, you take a –4 penalty on dispel checks when using your rebuke magic ability. This penalty applies if either you or your target are in the hallowed area.

For example, Torrent (cleric 2) and Diogenes (wizard 5) are facing an inquisitor. Torrent expends a turning check to gird Diogenes’ magic, and rolls a
19 for her girding check. Diogenes casts a spell, and the inquisitor tries to rebuke its magic. Normally the DC of the inquisitor’s dispel check would be 16, but because of Torrent’s girding it is 19.

Person_Man
2010-11-03, 09:26 AM
Incandescent Champion is a HUGE waste. It doesn't progress your spells or caster level, and Incarnum Overload only works once per day. But since he's an NPC and you have weird homebrew caps on spells, I guess it doesn't matter.

jiriku
2010-11-03, 09:37 AM
Since your caster level is so far below your HD, Practiced Spellcaster seems like an obvious choice. +4 to dispel checks, +4 duration increments, bigger buffs from bonuses. It's all good.

true_shinken
2010-11-03, 12:06 PM
There's an alternate class feature in the War of the Burning Sky book from EN publishing. Third party, but fair use quote here:

Hm, if only you didn't need to ready an action.


Since your caster level is so far below your HD, Practiced Spellcaster seems like an obvious choice. +4 to dispel checks, +4 duration increments, bigger buffs from bonuses. It's all good.
Indeed, I'll certainly use it.


Incandescent Champion is a HUGE waste. It doesn't progress your spells or caster level, and Incarnum Overload only works once per day. But since he's an NPC and you have weird homebrew caps on spells, I guess it doesn't matter.
...and? I just want the cleric levels to reliably counterspell. I don't really understand your comment.

jiriku
2010-11-03, 12:10 PM
6th level spellcasting is enough for an ice axe. Handy tool for building a Codzilla prior to divine power.

Person_Man
2010-11-03, 02:19 PM
...and? I just want the cleric levels to reliably counterspell. I don't really understand your comment.

I apologize if I was unclear. Additional levels of Cleric or any PrC that progresses divine casting would give the NPC more power and more options, and there are many more efficient ways to optimize counterspelling then Incandescent Champion. (There's a guide somewhere, but I'm blocked from most other sites right now). But as I said, this is an NPC and a PC, so optimal power/options probably isn't that big of a deal.

true_shinken
2010-11-03, 02:27 PM
I apologize if I was unclear. Additional levels of Cleric or any PrC that progresses divine casting would give the NPC more power and more options, and there are many more efficient ways to optimize counterspelling then Incandescent Champion. (There's a guide somewhere, but I'm blocked from most other sites right now). But as I said, this is an NPC and a PC, so optimal power/options probably isn't that big of a deal.

Oh, I see. I'm using this mostly to get my players off-guard. Also, I like Incandescent Champion.

I'm also trying to optimize his AC and initiative. I'm thinking of Halfweight Mithral Fullplate of Nimbleness, Dex 16, Improved Initiative, Guerrilla Scout and a Warning weapon. That's a total of Init +14; I could use more. Maybe I should add two levels of Divine Oracle as well. I mean, Divine Oracles get uncanny dodge, don't they?

Grynning
2010-11-03, 02:30 PM
Oh, I see. I'm using this mostly to get my players off-guard. Also, I like Incandescent Champion.

I'm also trying to optimize his AC and initiative. I'm thinking of Halfweight Mithral Fullplate of Nimbleness, Dex 16, Improved Initiative, Guerrilla Scout and a Warning weapon. That's a total of Init +14; I could use more. Maybe I should add two levels of Divine Oracle as well. I mean, Divine Oracles get uncanny dodge, don't they?

Divine Oracles get a version of Evasion that works in armor at level 2, and Uncanny Dodge at 4th level.

true_shinken
2010-11-03, 02:45 PM
Divine Oracles get a version of Evasion that works in armor at level 2, and Uncanny Dodge at 4th level.

Hmmm... maybe if I drop Ordained Champion... but I want him to be a credible melee threat without DP... >.<