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bokodasu
2010-11-03, 07:12 AM
Ok, normally I would never, ever try to get someone to build a "better" character, but the person who's playing the paladin a) picked it because she didn't find her old fighter strong enough and b) is kind of new to D&D. And she's definitely into the hero thing, but I don't think she's actually having fun getting killed while the rest of us are trying to protect the monk.

But I've never had the slightest urge to play a D&D paladin, so I don't have any suggestions to give her. I'm looking hopefully for smaller tweaks that can help her character keep up at the mid-high levels, and I definitely don't want to say "your character sucks, use this completely different build instead."

Restrictions/Guidelines:
*Non-core is approved on a case-by-case basis, so less complicated/fewer books is better.
*No third-party material at all.
*Characters are around 10-12th level (She may be as low as 9th, if she isn't going for the true resurrection, I'm not sure.)
*Player wants to be a hero who hits things
*Game is almost entirely combat. The last time we fought anything humanish was... well, there were a couple of giants once. So mind-control and diplomacy stuff is probably not the way to go.

Bonus: If you can suggest ways my 13th level druid can buff her character to make it more effective, that's good too. I'm trying to move into more of a support role, but it's new for me so I can always use tips.

Ryuk01
2010-11-03, 07:13 AM
This is helpful: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870162/The_Paladins_Handbook_--_2007?pg=1

dsmiles
2010-11-03, 07:44 AM
Instead of wasting turn undead attempts on trying to turn undead, the paladin should probably look into some of the divine feats that are powered by the turn undead attempts. Those are usually much better options than actually turning undead.

SamsDisciple
2010-11-03, 07:53 AM
Just a comment that with the right combat tactics even a poorly built character can be beneficial and survive an encounter. Most paladins that I have seen have focused on being a charger with their special mounts. If you are fighting mostly monsters then I don't think it would be to hard to convince the dm to allow a flying mount so fly by attacks would do heavy damage, keep the paladin away from combat, and cut quite a dashing heroic figure flying off into the sunset after saving a village.

Myth
2010-11-03, 08:01 AM
You had a Fighter and a Monk in your group? I reckon you are not big on the whole optimization thing? You are a Druid though, you can carry the dead weight for sure.

A hero who hits things, well getting the DM to approve ToB is the best way to go around. Paladin 2, Crusader x, Ruby Knight Vindicator y. To make the character even better you'd need non-core Paladin spells, Divine Metamagic feats and some good gear. What kinds of things are you most frequently fighting?

Iku Rex
2010-11-03, 08:14 AM
How about something like this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2741325&postcount=7 ?

bokodasu
2010-11-03, 08:46 AM
Just a comment that with the right combat tactics even a poorly built character can be beneficial and survive an encounter.

That's another thing I could use help on. What are some good ways to use a paladin? I don't even know.

Our DM is having some sort of mount/familiar/Animal Companion crisis, and has been making traps so that we can't have them with us. But I'll see if maybe she could get a Pegasus or something, that would be a) cool and b) still less powerful than the other druid's flame-winged crocodile. (Upon reflection, that might have something to do with his removal of same.)


You had a Fighter and a Monk in your group?

Two fighters and a monk. The rest of a party is one each barbarian, ranger, wizard, cleric, my standard druid and another druid using a UA variant where you give up wildshaping for ranger-y skills. The optimization ranges from players who visit TO boards to one who has the DM make his character for him.

We generally fight things a couple of CR above us, but it's a huge party (although usually only some subset shows up). There's a fair amount of undead, as the BBEG is a wannabe lich who creates super-undead by killing things with his souped-up at-will Finger of Death. Some demons, the occasional monstrous humanoid (or army thereof), and generally monsters that have powers that the DM finds fun. And he plays them pretty smart - not flawlessly, but he does combine monsters with complementary abilities to up the difficulty. (For example, he used a beholder's AMF and some difficult terrain to let some unreachable skeletal archers and some close-range trolls chew up the party.) He's also fond of traps that neutralize parts of the party at different times.

Oh. Dang. I just realized that I had the power to bypass one of his traps, and I didn't remember it until now. If I'd remembered, I could probably have saved the paladin. Crap.


How about something like this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2741325&postcount=7 ?

Hm... maybe we could simplify it to paladin/sorcerer? It would have the advantage of staying in core, too - and SC is conditionally approved (with the caveat that the DM can hit the NO button on any spell not specifically pre-ok'd), so that would be a huge bonus.

A spontaneously-casting Holy Warrior, flying in on her Pegasus... well, *I* like it! We'll see if I can sell it.

Tael
2010-11-03, 10:32 AM
There are two simple steps.

1. Be a Pathfinder Paladin.
2. Get Battle Blessing.
3. There are no other rules. You are good to go.

Greenish
2010-11-03, 12:06 PM
There are two simple steps.

1. Be a Pathfinder Paladin.
2. Get Battle Blessing.
3. There are no other rules. You are good to go.I'd pick up a Devotion feat or two. Awesome Smite would be cool with PF Smite. Both Devotion feats and Awesome Smite are from CChampion.

Person_Man
2010-11-03, 01:37 PM
Suggestions:

1) Pathfinder Paladin > 3.5 Paladin.

2) Find one divine/domain feat you really like, and beg your DM to approve it, so that your Turn Undead ability is useful. Most of the good ones are in Complete Champion - Travel Devotion, Animal Devotion, Earth Devotion, etc. But there's also Divine Defiance from Fiendish Codex II, Divine Shield from Complete Warrior, and a few others in Complete Divine.

3) The key to playing an ECL 5+ Paladin is having an awesome Special Mount. If your DM allows it, take Leadership and get a dragon or something similar. If he doesn't beg for a Special Mount oriented prestige class (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=106815), such as Aglarondan Griffin Rider or Ashworm Dragoon.

4) Don't forget that a single level of Paladin allows you to use all spell trigger items (wands, staffs, etc) for spells on the Paladin list, and that you can put wands in bracers and weapon chambers (Dungeonscape). Holy Sword, Bless Weapon, Rhino's Rush, Knight's Move, etc.

5) If you do go strait Paladin, it's actually possible to optimize your spells (somewhat). Sword of the Arcane Order (Champion's of Valor) adds all Wizard spells to your spell list (with buffs like Alter Person and Polymorph being the most important), and Battle Blessing (Complete Champion) allows you to cast Standard Action Paladin spells as a Swift Action.

Flickerdart
2010-11-03, 01:53 PM
A charger Paladin can get pretty ridiculous: a Valorous lance wielded on horseback with Spirited Charge deals quadruple damage. Rhino's Rush makes that quintuple, then you Power Attack. Then your Ride-By Attack carries you out of your opponent's range.

Callista
2010-11-03, 04:33 PM
I'm going to say this just because it'll cause so many problems in the event you don't think about it: Do NOT play a paladin in a group with one or more Evil-aligned characters, or for that matter Neutral characters who are likely to develop in ways that skew to Evil. It's a recipe for someone either getting nerfed or getting killed, and you don't want that; it's not fun for anybody involved.

Probably didn't have to remind you; most people know it; but when you don't, it's bad, so I figured I might as well.

Stuff re. paladins:
Get 14 Wisdom. You don't need more.
Buff your Charisma as much as possible.
Your Turn Undead is way behind the cleric's. Get a feat that lets you use Turn attempts to do something else more useful.

Barlen
2010-11-03, 07:57 PM
How about Prestige Paladin. Then they can buff themselves. Needs ok for Unearthed Arcana.

Builds go anywhere from the basic Fighter 2/Cleric 4/Prestige Paladin 3+ to one I've been looking at Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 3/Prestige Paladin 3+.

In the later case you need access to complete champion as well. This nets you Bab 9 (at ecl 10, you said she might start at 9) with weapon focus (war domain) in the deities favored weapon, 8 cleric caster levels, turn undead as a 10th level cleric (at ecl 10). The last point becomes important as you get a smite that is based on your effective turn undead level for damage and you use your turn undead attempts for it (swift action).

Flickerdart
2010-11-03, 09:03 PM
It's generally not a good idea to take Prestige Paladin beyond 3rd level, and 3rd level isn't all that great either - its most valuable ability is the +1 to casting, so if you have a better PrC to progress, do that instead.

Barlen
2010-11-03, 10:57 PM
agreed. level 3 grants a caster level and BAB progression so if you've already gone to 2 you might as well. I used the same logic to go to Ordained champion 3 in that build. Cleric 5 grants the caster level but not the bab progression. In fact it grants nothing else.

Escheton
2010-11-03, 11:40 PM
Given that it's a party of 20 counting the summons and pets it really doesnt matter how much you op-fu. So making a charger that rolls lotsa dmg might be fine to slake the thirst for action at the table and still be low on the spotlght time requirement.
Multiclassing out of paladin after 3 is great. Might not be the players style though.

Or you could make an elf paladin with an unichorn (they heal).
Or a halfling, with a medium mount you can prolly charge anywhere the party can go.

bokodasu
2010-11-04, 08:49 AM
I'm going to say this just because it'll cause so many problems in the event you don't think about it: Do NOT play a paladin in a group with one or more Evil-aligned characters, or for that matter Neutral characters who are likely to develop in ways that skew to Evil.

Oh no worries. At True Neutral, I think I'm probably the "evilest" character in the party. Our DM doesn't allow evil PCs, and personally, I don't enjoy playing in games with them (although I'm sure it's terribly fun, it's just not my cup of tea). And I think my alignment is probably headed toward neutral good, unless I go burn down an orphanage or something. (I did just use my downtime to threaten to blight some farmers' crops, so that should help.)


Given that it's a party of 20 counting the summons and pets it really doesnt matter how much you op-fu.

You know, I knew we had a big party, but I'd never noticed exactly how big. It gets better - everyone without summoning got jealous of the pets and so started buying spells and items to let them summon creatures too.

On the other hand, most of the time we're missing anywhere from one to half of the players, so it's not quite as bad as all that. And our DM does hit the NO button on the animal companions occasionally. (He also does not let me use 'reduce animal' + a Hat of Disguise to make my elephant look like a heavy warhorse with pretty ribbons in its mane, which cuts down on the usefulness in urban areas.)

Thanks everyone for your suggestions; it's a lot to digest at once but I think I'm getting some general ideas. Now I just have to figure out how to nicely present them to the other player; I don't want it to sound like she's not pulling her weight or anything, I just feel like she'll have more fun if she gets to join more fully in the utter wreckage.

(And after all these posts about how our game is all combat, we're getting a diplomatic mission next week. So maybe those CHA skills will come in handy...)

Fawsto
2010-11-05, 08:20 AM
It would be so nice to sneak in a Bone Knight...

Cleric X/Prestige Paladin 2 or 3/Bone Knight rest = Awesome Lawful Good Knight that can go trough and thorough necromancy.

Sorry. Hehe. Can't always sneak a Bone Knight all the time.


The PF Paladin is AWESOME!

Also, 2 words: LAW. DEVOTION. (Sorry for the capslock, but it needs a huge spotlight). This feat found at CChamp will give you from +3 to +7 sacred bonus to AC... or Attack Rolls! This means that you can PA for an extra 14 points of damage when you hit level 15, no penalties at all. The price? A feat. This will net you one use per day that lasts for 1 minute. If you burn your turn undead uses for life you can get more uses of this. And heck, your charisma will grant you at least 6 TUs, which you won't be using for turning any undead that matters (perhaps a wight or two at high levels... Shadows are also a pain in the ass... Well... Let the cleric deal with them).

Can you imagine using PF Smite Evil plus this feat? Now add Awesome Smite.

Cheers