Resurrection Frustration

[Ilmryn]

Doesn't it frustrate you when, in a book movie, or (most frequently) a video game, an important character dies, convoluting the plot and causing grief, even though resurrection is a perfectly viable option? It frustrates me to no end when the plot of a video game fails to consider that the world it is present in is one where coming back from the dead is perfectly possible.

[Kobold-Bard]

Doesn't it frustrate you when, in a book movie, or (most frequently) a video game, an important character dies, convoluting the plot and causing grief, even though resurrection is a perfectly viable option? It frustrates me to no end when the plot of a video game fails to consider that the world it is present in is one where coming back from the dead is perfectly possible.

Final Fantasy (big one in this area): death is just a KO unless it's plot relevant. You get knocked on your ass enough to be incapacitated, but between your own semi-conciousness and your team mates looking out for you you survive long enough to get a heal from the healer. Phoenix Downs don't literally revive the dead, just get the injured up and about.

Any game in particular you're miffed about?

[VanBuren]

Neverwinter Nights 2, I'm looking right at you. Twice.

[Boo]

Well, with FF there is the Life spell, but whether that does the same as a pheonix down or actually gives life is up for arbitrary debate.

Any perma-death in D&D is hilarious.

[Haruki-kun]

I take the Pokemon approach. In FF battles, your characters are Fainted. Unless they all die, in which case the bad guys kill your fainted characters while they're unconscious. Those bastards.

[Dr.Epic]

Doesn't it frustrate you when, in a book movie, or (most frequently) a video game, an important character dies, convoluting the plot and causing grief, even though resurrection is a perfectly viable option? It frustrates me to no end when the plot of a video game fails to consider that the world it is present in is one where coming back from the dead is perfectly possible.

I never pay attention to plot in a video game. You need one, but you don't need a good one. As for characters dying and not being brought back, unless their PCs, I don't care. It bugs me when a party can and has resurrected people in the group before, but this time can't. It bugs me they are removing that character as a playable option.

[king.com]

Doesn't it frustrate you when, in a book movie, or (most frequently) a video game, an important character dies, convoluting the plot and causing grief, even though resurrection is a perfectly viable option? It frustrates me to no end when the plot of a video game fails to consider that the world it is present in is one where coming back from the dead is perfectly possible.

Frustrates me to no end.

[Kobold-Bard]

A friend of Stacy has said that she is still with Andrew a.k.a. Test. Another way to prove that they, Randy and Stacy, aren't together is to simply watch Raw. When they are on screen they seem to have no chemistry, it's like they are being forced to do it and they really don't care. It's just a storyline.

err....what's that now?

[dgnslyr]

Well, the most notorious example I can think of is Final Fantasy, and even then, being at 0 hp technically means you're KO'd, while plot-death actually kills you. A phoenix down is imbued with magical energy that gets you back on your feet, and Life 1-2 does the same thing, with varying degrees of potency.

This, however, gets a bit silly when you realize that getting shanked in the back kills you, while being smited with a continent-slicing beam of light won't. Eh, just standard plot-gameplay segregation, if you ask me.

[Tengu_temp]

I never pay attention to plot in a video game. You need one, but you don't need a good one.

I think you need to play more story-driven games with great plots. Planescape: Torment should be a good start.

[Comet]

I'd like to hear more examples about this thing. So far the only one I can see is D&D based fiction, since Final Fantasy et all don't really count.

[warty goblin]

I'd like to hear more examples about this thing. So far the only one I can see is D&D based fiction, since Final Fantasy et all don't really count.

And even in D&D, doesn't the person in question have to want to come back?

[Tengu_temp]

How about Dragonball Z? Bringing people back to life is ridiculously simple, yet characters react to others dying with shock and terror every time.

[Kyeudo]

How about Dragonball Z? Bringing people back to life is ridiculously simple, yet characters react to others dying with shock and terror every time.

Originally, there was a limit of one ressurection, IIRC.

[Susano-wo]

TO be fair, there is a limited counter on it.
BUt not enought to make them react so strongly...:smallbiggrin:

on the topic as a whole, it only bugs me if it is internally inconsistent, regarding story/gameplay segregation.
FF doesn't bug me since, even in the games that say you are dead, and talk about it ressurecting you, etc, its gameplay/stroy segregation. I am not bothered by their lack of huge backpacks to carry around all those potions, all that armor, all those weapons...etc, so I am not bothered if they can't, in fiction, raise the dead, at least not easily.
Now if they had a miniquest or story event where you ressurected someone and later killed somneone off in story when they could have simply Phoenix downed/lifed them, then it would bug me

[Obrysii]

Originally, there was a limit of one ressurection, IIRC.

This is why Goku reacted so violently when Krillin was killed, if I recall - hadn't Krillin already been resurrected in Dragonball?

[Frozen_Feet]

In Dragonball, they reacted to death the way they did because, when someone died, the one who killed them was still alive and usually so much more powerful than anyone else that casually gathering the dragonballs was either impossible or diabolically hard.

[Susano-wo]

@Obrysii: yes, I do beleive that was the case. Also, they didn't know they Author was going to create a loophole with the Namekian DragonBalls (god, I should not know all this ; ;)

@Frozen: yeah, that is actually quite a good point...and there are plenty of times where they posthumously tell their frends to hang tight until they can wish them back

Incidentally, whatever travesties GT wrought (I'm looking at you SSj4!), I can give it credit for A: at least initially putting things back into the lets have a journey/adventure original dragonball style, and B: putting a freakin price on the constant wish this, wish that, "lets go get the dragon radar and wish us some icecream!" crap that started happening in Z

[Thrawn183]

Incidentally, whatever travesties GT wrought (I'm looking at you SSj4!), I can give it credit for A: at least initially putting things back into the lets have a journey/adventure original dragonball style, and B: putting a freakin price on the constant wish this, wish that, "lets go get the dragon radar and wish us some icecream!" crap that started happening in Z

Wait, this was WAY worse in the original than Z. Z was about bringing people back from the dead, fixing massive amounts of damage done to the planet etc. The original was about wishing for panties.

[Mordaenor]

Yeah, game play and story in most Video Game RPG's are separated by wrought-iron fence. Made of tigers.

Slightly related topic, my favorite Video Game death "cop-out" (for lack of a better word?) was the faulty memory of the Prince in Prince of Persia: Sands of Time. Jump off cliff... cut to continue screen and Voice Over "Wait, no that's not how it happened."

[Susano-wo]

that's a gross mischaracterization. :smallfurious:Only Oolong wanted that:smallwink:

I'm not saying the wishes were necessarily for more worthwhile things in reg'lar ole' DB, just that getting them was a big deal, and it turned into just something that you can do once you defeat the big bad threatening the world (or, in the case of the Tree of Might movie, do during the title sequence...:smallsigh: to reverse the effects of one forest fire. Which is all well and good until you start wondering if they do this every year--how do you decide which natural disaster gets reversed every year? do they take applications?).

In the beginning of GT they get backhanded wit hthe consequences of doing something that was meant to be done once every few hundred years or so ALL THE FREAKING TIME!

@Mordaenor: heh, that's awesome, I never played the comupter/console version of that game

[Ilmryn]

Any game in particular you're miffed about?


Neverwinter Nights 2, I'm looking right at you. Twice.

Neverwinter nights is the particular one where the plot doesn't stack up, especially since it is set in a world where resurrection is part of what's possible.

Dragon Quest (I think it was IX) is also an annoying one. There is no actual plot-related stuff saying that there is ressurection, but the gameplay makes it very clear that if a character hits 0hp he's dead. The coffin following you around is a dead giveaway. Then, in the part where there is a city with a plague going on, you defeat the plague monster, and return to the city hoping to gather some, well a kind of an essence of gratitude, but you can't get any because everyone's in grief at some girl who died. At that point it is very frustrating that they won't just go to the curch, pay a price about the same of waht a night at the inn costs, and have her ressurected.

[CrimsonAngel]

In Guild Wars there's a bunch of quests were if the NPC dies you fail... Even though resurrection is totaly possible.
Oh no, Rurik died again, better leave him there and not have the monk res him.

[Mr. Scaly]

Well, for DnD based games I've always understood that sometimes resurrection isn't possible for some deaths.

[VanBuren]

Well, for DnD based games I've always understood that sometimes resurrection isn't possible for some deaths.

Neither of which would apply in NWN2. OK, maybe Shandra's depending on what wards Ammon had up.

But Amie has no excuse.

[Mr. Scaly]

Neither of which would apply in NWN2. OK, maybe Shandra's depending on what wards Ammon had up.

But Amie has no excuse.

I was thinking more along the lines of certain characters in the Baldur's Gate series...never actually played NWN2 sadly...my darn computer wouldn't run it.

[Dr.Epic]

I think you need to play more story-driven games with great plots. Planescape: Torment should be a good start.

Yeah, people tell me that, but I'm just in it to kill monsters. Any cut scene that's over five minutes I can't skip is a massive waste of my time.

[warty goblin]

Yeah, people tell me that, but I'm just in it to kill monsters. Any cut scene that's over five minutes I can't skip is a massive waste of my time.

I agree with you that any cutscene over five minutes is a bad idea, but only because I'm a firm supporter of the Chainsaw, Axe and Scalpel school of editing*. I apply this to most combat encounters as well.

*First go through and identify what the actual story you are telling is. Chainsaw major extraneous portions no matter how awesome you think they are, then axe the smaller bits you thought contributed but don't. Finally take a scalpel to the remainder and trim the fat. Games tragically tend to follow the Shovel school of editing, wherein you identify what you are doing, then just keep piling it on.

[Starbuck_II]

I was thinking more along the lines of certain characters in the Baldur's Gate series...never actually played NWN2 sadly...my darn computer wouldn't run it.

You meant BG 2 when Jahiera tells you not to resurrect him? I figured it was because she wamnted to get in your pants. :smallbiggrin:

[Jahkaivah]

Yeah, people tell me that, but I'm just in it to kill monsters. Any cut scene that's over five minutes I can't skip is a massive waste of my time.

Cutscenes?

You're definitely playing the wrong story-based games. :smallamused:

[warty goblin]

I was thinking more along the lines of certain characters in the Baldur's Gate series...never actually played NWN2 sadly...my darn computer wouldn't run it.

I think that's actually a blessing disguise. There are few games I consider better examples of simply bad design and worse execution than NWN 2.

[Kislath]

Hear, hear! NWN2 was lame. It had such promise, and the acting was great, but Amie, Shondra, heck, the Villagers of Ember and West Harbor.. just raise 'em and be done with it, already! It needed more crafting, too.

[Fiery Diamond]

Yeah, people tell me that, but I'm just in it to kill monsters. Any cut scene that's over five minutes I can't skip is a massive waste of my time.

Movies and games be two different things, methinks. I don't like overly long cut scenes, either - five minutes or so is about the max of what I like, actually. However...if you're just in it to kill monsters, then why play games with stories at all? Just play Monster Hunter or something and be done with it.


I agree with you that any cutscene over five minutes is a bad idea, but only because I'm a firm supporter of the Chainsaw, Axe and Scalpel school of editing*. I apply this to most combat encounters as well.

*First go through and identify what the actual story you are telling is. Chainsaw major extraneous portions no matter how awesome you think they are, then axe the smaller bits you thought contributed but don't. Finally take a scalpel to the remainder and trim the fat. Games tragically tend to follow the Shovel school of editing, wherein you identify what you are doing, then just keep piling it on.

I don't like this style of editing that you endorse. Nor do I like the style of editing you claim that most games follow (I disagree with you on that, actually - though I suspect the reason we disagree has a lot to do with your preference for cutting out lots and my preference for not).

The way I like it is this: You identify what you are doing. Make sure that everything has relevance to this. Make sure that what you do all has at least tangential relationship to the main idea (plot, character concept, etc.). No beach scenes/hot springs scenes in a game of heroic fantasy, for example (Tales of Symphonia...why did you have this? WHY did you have a hot springs scene? WHY?!). Utterly random stuff must be gotten rid of (unless that's the point of the game, of course).

Of course, I abhor short games. Seriously, if you have a story-based game that I can beat in less than forty hours, it isn't long enough. There are a few exceptions (Golden Sun) but they're just special like that (also, that was a two-parter that together was more than forty hours). (If Dark Dawn doesn't take forty hours or more I will be very displeased.)


Cutscenes?

You're definitely playing the wrong story-based games. :smallamused:

Depends on what you call a cut scene. If you mean an actual cut scene, where you just watch the movie and don't even get to press a button to get the dialogue to move, then...yeah, most of the games I like don't have cut scenes longer than like, a minute, tops.

If you consider a scene in which the only input you have is pressing a button to further the dialogue a cut scene... well, I'm fine with having "cut scenes" of like ten minutes if they're good enough.

[warty goblin]

Hear, hear! NWN2 was lame. It had such promise, and the acting was great, but Amie, Shondra, heck, the Villagers of Ember and West Harbor.. just raise 'em and be done with it, already! It needed more crafting, too.

I'd say it needed a camera that didn't devote itself to making the player's life hell, AI so bad it's an insult to the term, a story that wasn't created by cutting and pasting in every possible fantasy cliche with reckless abandon, a smaller, more interesting and better developed cast of characters, an engine so bad the loading screens had loading screens, level design that didn't seem to go out of its way to maximize the number of loading screens necessary to accomplish even basic tasks, fewer stupid pointless random encounters and an interface not developed in exclusive partnership with the Seventh Ring of Hell.

But yeah, crafting and resurrection wouldn't have hurt either.

[mangosta71]

You meant BG 2 when Jahiera tells you not to resurrect him? I figured it was because she wamnted to get in your pants. :smallbiggrin:

I assumed it was because Jaheira was actually useful, so my characters always made sure that Khalid got killed and not raised as soon as I got out of the inn in BG1 so his body wasn't actually in the dungeon anyway. Same thing with Minsc and Dynaheir - Minsc was a great front-liner, but Dynaheir was a waste of a party slot (even worse because Edwin wouldn't join you if she was around).

[ericgrau]

In one campaign I was playing in resurrect-able deaths came every session and became the norm. Meanwhile kidnappings, soul trapping and so on were about as common as regular deaths in a regular campaign. That was how we became forced to make new characters.

[Susano-wo]

mostly +1 TO Fiery Diamond's post

I think that there is a biiiig difference between books, games, and movies.
things that work in one, don't necessarily work in the others.

For instance, though I like the Tom Bombadil scene, and I think that it does add to the book (adding depth to the world is a valid purpose), it doesn't work in a movie, so I understand cutting it, like every adapter of fellowship of the ring has done. (OK, 2 people, but still..:smallwink:)

I like long cutscenes if they add a lot (though all cutscenes should be skippable. violators should be punished with death by acidborn sharks! "I just saw this cutscene. before the boss killed me. yes, I know he is really my father...this is the 5th time I've fought this guy!")

BUt my favorite games are either world immersive (Elder Scrolls, for instance), or heavily story based (console RPGs, Metal Gear series, etc).

I also think Xenogears is one of the greatest RPGs ever made...so take that into account:smallbiggrin:

ONe last thing: there are plenty of reasons to play a story game if you want to just kill monsters. Even story games have cool mechanics, and allow you to kill monsters in cool ways, etc. (though why you would need some story, but not care how good it is, or be interested in it, I don't get. :P)

[bluewind95]

Dragon Quest (I think it was IX) is also an annoying one. There is no actual plot-related stuff saying that there is ressurection, but the gameplay makes it very clear that if a character hits 0hp he's dead. The coffin following you around is a dead giveaway. Then, in the part where there is a city with a plague going on, you defeat the plague monster, and return to the city hoping to gather some, well a kind of an essence of gratitude, but you can't get any because everyone's in grief at some girl who died. At that point it is very frustrating that they won't just go to the curch, pay a price about the same of waht a night at the inn costs, and have her ressurected.

To be fair, she died of illness. Perhaps that is the limit on resurrection (no old people or so are ressed. And perhaps you need a body in good condition. You and your party members always die to monsters and are resurrected quite soon afterwards.