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View Full Version : [3.5, but also philosophy] Making A BBEG, The Right Way



Deth Muncher
2010-11-04, 02:11 AM
So, I was just musing over this (instead of writing the report for my US Congress class, as is often the case). When you make a campaign, you, as the DM, have to gauge the level of sadism when building - that is to say, how much do you like torturing the players. When you make your endboss, the Big Bad Evil Guy (to the four of you NOT familiar with that trope abbreviation), you, as the DM, have one last shot to beat your PCs. The question is - how much power do you give them? I bring this up because in my brand new campaign, I'm thinking up how the endboss should be - what he should do, etc. And as I'm thinking, I'm starting to think of ways for him to get around things the party can throw at him - Ring of Counterspelling, being undead to ignore crits and SoDs, etc. But how far is too far? How far can you go before you've optimized your BBEG to the point of omnipotence? Omnipotence is something that the BBEG, as a character, wishes to achieve, but you, as the DM, have to stop him just shy - because it's the job of the PCs to stop that ascension to UNLIMITED POWER. No one likes a campaign in which they fail.

The tl;dr is: How far do you take your BBEGs on the Sliding Scale of Power as compared to your PCs?

And now, to my specific example for my campaign:
So, I'm thinking of bringing my stock character as the Big Bad: That is to say, a human sorceror. As I'm imagining him currently, he's probably going into something like Incanitrix or Ultimate Magus. I had also had the idea of having him Clone himself and having somehow bestowed duplicate consciousnesses amongst them so that each one could be a different build - an Incanitrix, an Ultimate Magus, etc. This also gives the chance to meet the "good" clone early on and enlist him as help versus the BBEG at the end, or something. But, I digress. The point is, I plan on having this guy to have a counter to everything: Can't get Sneaked because of undeadness (via lich, likely) or something, can't be SoD'd because of the same, can't get spells in general cast at him because of a ring of counterspelling/having a class feature that gives him awesome counterspells, can't be hit in combat because of ridiculous AC/miss chance (can you say Blur/Mirror Image + Twilight Mithril Plate?), etc. But is that a d-bag move? To make him untouchable? If I plan for everything that the players could possibly throw, that means they can't kill him except via DM-ex-machina, which is suck. But likewise, I want him to be an epic (little e, not Big E) enemy, so I don't want to go about making him half-assed.

Escheton
2010-11-04, 02:55 AM
Characters have wealth fitting their lvl and access to crafters and most books? They have ample time to prepare, scry, pray for advice?
Then go right ahead. Just make sure you keep within reason. Certain resources draw attention and keep lingering information amongst those that provided it. 1 questioning pc removed from being learned. If you use poison, the local black market dealers might know a thing or 2. It is fairly impossible to remain invisible when ascending in power.

Arbitrarity
2010-11-04, 02:55 AM
Ah, optimized bosses.

Basically, to make such a fight interesting, you need to
1) Exclude some immunities (most likely this will be accidental, as immunity to everything all the time is... difficult)
2) Allow each character to contribute somehow (requires knowing party composition and capabilities)
3) Give the players a chance to deduce vulnerabilities and immunities and prepare accordingly. (prior encounter, rumors, scrying, Legend Lore, some other sort of warning)
4) Have a few ablative defenses in place to avoid instant kills. (Wings of Cover)

The proposed character seems reasonable. Twice Betrayer of Shar (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871166/New_Build_and_Challenge:_The_Twice-Betrayer_of_Shar) is not.
If I feel really peckish, I might build a swiftblade or something tomorrow. I <3 swiftblades.

Coidzor
2010-11-04, 03:17 AM
And now, to my specific example for my campaign:
But is that a d-bag move? To make him untouchable? If I plan for everything that the players could possibly throw, that means they can't kill him except via DM-ex-machina, which is suck. But likewise, I want him to be an epic (little e, not Big E) enemy, so I don't want to go about making him half-assed.

There is a middle ground between weak sauce and need DM plot-coupon item to do anything to at all, ever.

akma
2010-11-04, 03:40 AM
Ask yourself, is the only point of the villain immunity to all attacks the PCs can do is to screw them? If yes, don`t do it. Just make him resistent to many attacks but not completly immune.



tl;dr

You explained BBEG but not what that means? (and by the way, I thought the G stands for Genuis)

Deth Muncher
2010-11-04, 03:54 AM
You explained BBEG but not what that means? (and by the way, I thought the G stands for Genuis)

I feel like "Big Bad Evil Guy" is pretty self explanatory. And the G could probably mean any number of things, dependent on the person - genius, guy, girl, Githyanki...


There is a middle ground between weak sauce and need DM plot-coupon item to do anything to at all, ever.

Fair point. Which brings me to another point: Is it fair to enter into a war of attrition with the players? Not a full on war, mind you, but rather the kind of battle which means that everyone, including the BBEG, is going to be pumping out every single one of their spells until all that's left is some very wealthy and blinged-out commoners.

Also, is this kind of end-battle too cheesy?
So, the PCs start fighting the bad guy. Let's just assume that he's ascended to lichdom, and by whatever feat, he's brought within an inch of his unlife. He then goes to Stage 2: Polymorphing into a Dracolich - which he can do, presumably, because he's undead. Let's say that now, after this, the PCs proceed to kill him - but before they smash his phylactery, the corpse reanimates - it turns out that he'd had a Contingent True Rez placed on him in the event he (un? re?) died, and is now back in the world of the living - and while he might not have his immunity to Sneak and such, he IS still around to kick ass and chew bubblegum (and by this point in the fight, he's likely all out of gum).
It might just be years of playing Final Fantasy, but I'm a sucker for three-part bosses.

EDIT: Also, in response to building something just to bork the characters - I honestly have no idea how their characters are going to turn out - that's why I'm making the character now, so that I don't get accused of tailoring it to screw with them. I'm just thinking as I would, were I some sort of magical badass of nigh-infinite power.

akma
2010-11-04, 04:00 AM
Just make sure the boss fight isn`t repetetive, and that he will significantly change his battle stratagies.


I feel like "Big Bad Evil Guy" is pretty self explanatory. And the G could probably mean any number of things, dependent on the person - genius, guy, girl, Githyanki...


I still don`t know what tl;dr means...



EDIT: Also, in response to building something just to bork the characters - I honestly have no idea how their characters are going to turn out - that's why I'm making the character now, so that I don't get accused of tailoring it to screw with them. I'm just thinking as I would, were I some sort of magical badass of nigh-infinite power.

Then there is the chance that some players will be uselless against him and some will be very usefull.

Coidzor
2010-11-04, 04:01 AM
The adventure the Red Hand Of Doom has a series of encounters during a battle after the siege of a city overcomes the walls that are designed to grind away at the player's resources so that they have to balance resource conservation with overcoming the challenges before them.

It's viewed as one of the more interesting and challenging segments, so, no, as long as you don't make it all about that all the time. Especially because it's hard once one hits breaks level 12 or so to really get in that many encounters in a session to really drain the spellcasters.

You might consider having some magic jar shenanigan attempts while only in the phylactery form and having 2 different contingent spells, one that brings him back in a RAWR! form if his body is destroyed, the other which restores him to life (if possible in a pre-prepped body with its own contingent spell[does quintessence preserve buffs?]) if his phylactery is destroyed while he's forcibly disincorporated.

Edit: This is probably a bad idea from the standpoint of playing the game though. Due to being a bit too long and drawn out. Be rather nasty to sit through it all in real time, I imagine.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-04, 04:09 AM
Undead to avoid SoD? Beware Glass Strike.

Also, I'd say no to the three-part battle, unless you want to play it up for laughs and have him flash red between stages. Often enough, having minions/lieutenants around will make your battle long and varied enough. Also, having powerful, important lieutenants around with different immunities and weaknesses makes sure your boss fight is tough without alienating certain character types. It'll also then be less tempting to put your BBEG's spell levels too far above the party. At high levels, that's quite important.

Duke of URL
2010-11-04, 06:14 AM
tl;dr --> "too long, didn't read". Used to summarize a wall-of-text knowing the attention span of most internet users.

The core problem behind the BBEG is that it's essentially the DM's form of metagaming. You want to have a final epic confrontation that will challenge the players, so you tend to develop an NPC that will specifically challenge those players.

The drawbacks to this are:

1) The NPC's abilities, special qualities, etc., are designed from a mechanical point of view, and then you have to work backward to make it fit into the character. Possible, but tricky.

2) Railroading. If you design your BBEG to be a specific challenge, then in the end, whatever the players did throughout the campaign really means nothing, as long as they get to the ending encounter.

On the other hand, your job as a DM is to tell a story. An interactive story, to be sure, but when it's all done, you want to players to have had fun and believe that they just gone through an epic tale. So that last fight has to be challenge that isn't over in one round on a SoD.

Tricky.

Back when I was running the gestalt build challenges, one of the most fun ones was Vulnerable Villains (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75327). The general idea was that the BBEG should be very powerful, but with a fatal flaw that could be exploited. On the whole I like that model, because an optimized BBEG should be a tough, or even TPK-lethal, fight, but discovering and exploiting that weakness is a reward for the players who figure it out, giving their work up to the point before the climax more meaning.

dsmiles
2010-11-04, 09:53 AM
I tailor my BBEGs to the party. I like to leave one hole in the BBEGs defenses that the party (as a group, not the individual characters) can exploit. Whether they can find it or not, and then successfully exploit it, is another matter entirely.

Lev
2010-11-04, 10:04 AM
I only dislike failing in campaigns with bad DM's.

Deth Muncher
2010-11-04, 10:04 AM
Re: The exploitable weakness - How small is the weakness before it just goes into d-bag status? For example - let's say that the BBEG was a Lycan. Boom - silver weakness. Big, broad weakness. Or a troll - fire and acid weakness - also big, obvious, well known exploitable weakness. But let's say the BBEG is has DR versus everything except Piercing - is that too small of a weakness? Or rather, they've got good everything except for a Reflex Save or Touch AC- so while they may be able to take regular melee attacks, Touch Attacks/AoEs are going to bring him down. Obviously, I know the lower bound of "d-baggy villain weakness" to be "The special, DM given weapon that only one character has, and will shatter and become useless after three hits" or the cheesy "The power was within you ALL ALONG" superhappyfriendship smackdown power that is so cliche in anime.

jiriku
2010-11-04, 10:07 AM
I use two- and three-part bosses. We're ALL Final Fantasy fans at heart, sir.

The BBEG is always a villain of at least the PC's level, and the final show-down is at least an EL+4 encounter. The BBEG is always a T1 casting class, and he'll have support from multiple minions who are also T1 casters of somewhat lower level. They're all protected by interlocking buffs and defenses, and if the PCs have been opposing the BBEG's activities for some time (especially if they've faced the BBEG personally, or been allowing his minions to escape and report on their capabilities and preferred tactics), then I give the BBEG considerable IC knowledge of their abilities and he prepares defenses appropriate to his means.

That last encounter hurts, and there are always PC fatalities. Often, their victory is pyrrhic, and they're not able to completely defeat all of the bad things the BBEG was attempting to do. But it's always fun.

Duke of URL
2010-11-04, 10:10 AM
Take a look at the link I had posted earlier. Most of the top entries had a weakness that was story-based and integral to the NPC, whether it was turning his own tactics against him (Horlamin Whitestar) or realizing that the way to destroying the BBEG was to work through his minions (Clockwork Fagin).

These are the type of weaknesses that are essential to the story, because they are an organic part of the BBEG, and require the players to know their adversary rather than simple DM fiat.

dsmiles
2010-11-04, 10:17 AM
Re: The exploitable weakness ~snip~

Honestly, it depends on party composition. A standard party (melee, skillmonkey, arcane caster, divine caster) would get something pretty standard. Immune to <element>/vulnerable to <opposed element>, or something like that. Or a weakness to some type of melee damage (sometimes two types). Or a low save, for whatever the arcane caster has available (but not for what he/she uses constantly).

Of course, I hand out items that pertain to the BBEG's weaknesses. I always state at the beginning of any campaign, "If I give you specific treasure, you'll need it in the future." For instance, the BBEG in one campaign was a Frost Giant Druid (more of a shaman, really). I gave out a couple of items that did fire damage (wand of fireballs, flaming weapons, frost reistant armors, etc.). The party sold them, and ended up with other stuff, none of which did fire damage. The arcane caster chose not to prepare any fire spells the day they were going after the BBEG (they thought it was a mountain giant, based on terrain and the types of minions they came across). They took him down, but it cost them. All because they didn't listen.

Deth Muncher
2010-11-04, 10:22 AM
Also, (and I'm totally down for you stealing this for your campaign) rate the following on a scale of 1 to d-bag:

As a preface, I'd like to mention that my campaign will be bouncing through the major campaign settings, as the BBEG searches for MOAR POWAH.

BBEG: [sipping a glass of wine as the PCs enter his final chamber] Ah, hello adventurers. I trust you found my lair accommodating? Good, good. Now, you caught me at a slightly inopportune moment - you see this wine here? This has been laced with a rather powerful poison, so as to be able to take my own life. As I've not had a chance to finish it yet, you've caught me while I'm still alive. As such, I suppose I'll have to entertain you, yes? I do want to be a good host, after all. In fact, let me introduce you to something I recently installed on this stronghold- *clicks a button, and ten Red Wizards appear to be Gate'd in* - Ah yes, the "Insta-Gate." Such a great investment. Oh, and did I mention I took Circle Magic? CL 50 Disintegrate.
[At this point, the BBEG only has about a round left. He finishes the rest of the wine.] Cheers, guys. [expires]
[Presumably, the PCs defeat the Red Wizards. As they go to loot his corpse...]
BBEG: [grabs whichever PC came to loot him first, hitting him with the Paralyzing Touch feature of a lich, which he now is] Hello there. You didn't think I was done playing with you yet, was I?

jiriku
2010-11-04, 10:28 AM
An exploitable weakness can take many forms, but it's often a good idea, because it rewards clever thinking.

One BBEG I used had essentially impregnable defenses, but was performing a ritual involving a sphere of pure Law and a lump of raw Chaos. The two had a magnetic attraction to one another and were held apart by massive chains made of interlocking iron golems. As she was beating the crap out of the players, they managed to destroy one of the golem chain links, and the Law/Chaos chunks rushed together and annihilated themselves most destructively, killing the BBEG quite thoroughly.

In another campaign, the BBEG was a tactical and strategic genius, and had defended himself mightily from every tactic and weapon of theirs he'd witnessed, heard reports of, or learned about through divination. But his weakness was his hubris -- he was so confident in the intelligence that he'd gathered that he only defended himelf from attacks that he knew they could use. He was fairly vulnerable to other types of attacks, so by thinking laterally and coming up with new tricks and tactics on the fly, they defeated him.



Also, (and I'm totally down for you stealing this for your campaign) rate the following on a scale of 1 to d-bag:

Totally legit, and done with panache besides. However, any PC worth his salt will decapitate the corpse before looting it. Also, beware of the tendency that PCs have to shoot the villain in the head while he's monologuing. Or walk in the door packing spell turning and bounce that disintigrate right back at the bad guy.

Deth Muncher
2010-11-04, 10:56 AM
Totally legit, and done with panache besides. However, any PC worth his salt will decapitate the corpse before looting it. Also, beware of the tendency that PCs have to shoot the villain in the head while he's monologuing. Or walk in the door packing spell turning and bounce that disintigrate right back at the bad guy.

I'm actually contemplating throwing that Disintigrate at their feet, opening up a pit under them or something, which they'd then have to get up out of, which would give the Circle of Mages a chance to ready something else.

EDIT: Re: Exploitable Weaknesses - those are some rather awesome ways to defeat the end boss. I especially like the "Nuke the whales baddy" approach.

EDIT EDIT: Also, Re: shot in the head - I think I'll probably give him a Ring of Deflect Arrows, and have him go all Neo vs the Bullet Cloud should they try that.

BRC
2010-11-04, 10:59 AM
Making enemies requires a very different mindset than making player characters.
I find with BBEG's the two most important things are durability and Style. And in a pinch, style can slide.
Durability is important because a BBEG is supposed to be a big, dramatic fight. Pump their saves against SoL spells. Spells like Stoneskin are perfect for this, as they add a big buffer of hit points that your PC's need to hack through.
The most important thing is Style. The encounter needs to be memorable, it must be stylish. I once played a campaign where the BBEG was a sorcerer-emperor, the DM refluffed Irresistable Dance into kneeling instead of dancing. It was a simple thing, but it added so much to the encounter. The image, our characters charging towards him, he holds out his hand and shouts "KNEEL", and we do, really worked.

Running a fight like this is more about psychology than anything. You can make the players feel like they are in far more danger than they actually are, stage the fights as follows:

1: The Threat, have the BBEG open with a big AoE attack, something like chain lightning. This shouldn't actually kill any of the players, but it should hurt them, a LOT. The thought running through their heads should be "We WILL lose if he does that again". If your BBEG dosn't have any AoE, pick the toughest PC and smack them HARD with some sort of special attack. You're goal here is to get the Players Scared. Make them think that every round the BBEG survives means there's a chance he'll do that again and murder them. A Maximized-something works very well for this, as you know exactly how much damage it will deal, so you can avoid actually killing any PC's.
2: The Holding pattern. Now that the players feel that surviving each round is an accomplishment, make them feel very accomplished. The BBEG should focus on self-preservation. Have them switch targets frequently, use abilities that knock players out of combat for a round or two. Hit individual players hard enough that they retreat from the fray for a round or two of healing. This is the final fight, so your players will have stocked up on potions and other consumables, if you've just knocked them down to ten hitpoints, they'll start using them.
3: The Death Throes. Once the BBEG's defenses have been worn away, once the clerics healing him have been eliminated, once victory is within a round or two, you can enter the Death Throes of the BBEG. Don't let the PC's know they're about to win. They've been balancing on the razor's edge for most of stage two, now you push them off. Ideally, you'd be killing or incapacitating one PC a round (If you've been keeping their hit points low throughout Stage 2, this shouldn't be too hard). The BBEG is going down in a round or two, but the players just see him giving his best maniacal laugh, glowing with power and swatting them like flies. This way, when they step over the corpses of their fellow teammates and deliver the killing blow, they feel like they just grasped Victory from the jaws of defeat.

Which brings us back to the original question, how powerful should the BBEG be. The answer is powerful enough to wipe the floor with the party if you played them to their full potential.

dsmiles
2010-11-04, 11:04 AM
Also, (and I'm totally down for you stealing this for your campaign) rate the following on a scale of 1 to d-bag:

That's some serious d-baggery. But in a fun way!

Psyx
2010-11-04, 11:15 AM
My 'end guys' last about a combat round. Sometimes less.

That's because - in D&D terms - they usually have double-digit HP and can't fight for toffee.

Typically, my villains will achieve their goals through politics, backstabbing, cut-outs and mercenaries. They don't get their own hands dirty and are generally far too busy being a demon summoner / evil genius / politician to bother learning how to use a sword. They have bodyguards who do that kind of thing for them.

My party earn their keep by cutting their way through all the lies and minions over the course of a campaign. Often - when they kick in the proverbial final doorway - the guy on the other side will be a skinny scribe-like figure, sat behind a desk. One swing of a sword and all their troubles are over.

It works well. It's an 'easy' victory once they've dealt with bodyguards and the like, but a very satisfying one. Especially if the bad guy pathetically grovels for his life for a bit. Especially if the LAST time they saw him, he was saying 'he went that way' and limping innocently off, pretending to be a harmless scribe.

jiriku
2010-11-04, 11:22 AM
I'm actually contemplating throwing that Disintigrate at their feet, opening up a pit under them or something, which they'd then have to get up out of, which would give the Circle of Mages a chance to ready something else.

That IS a good idea. Won't work if they're all flying though. Of course, then you can always disintigrate the keystone of an arch that's supporting the ceiling.... :smallamused:


EDIT EDIT: Also, Re: shot in the head - I think I'll probably give him a Ring of Deflect Arrows, and have him go all Neo vs the Bullet Cloud should they try that.

Good plan. Or better still, a Ring of Deflect Everything so he can go all Neo vs. the Anything Cloud.

Deth Muncher
2010-11-04, 11:26 AM
That IS a good idea. Won't work if they're all flying though. Of course, then you can always disintigrate the keystone of an arch that's supporting the ceiling.... :smallamused:

Good plan. Or better still, a Ring of Deflect Everything so he can go all Neo vs. the Anything Cloud.

Bah, if they're all flying, they DESERVE to get the ceiling dropped on them.

And I COULD go for the "Epic Artifact Ring of Bounce Everything Back" type deal, but I'd still likely put a damage limit on it, as I /think/ Protection from Arrows has: So even if he gets swarmed with a cloud of arrows or bullets (as may happen, depending on how the tech level works out), he may be able to slow them all down to the point of almost nothing, but still takes paltry damage.

jiriku
2010-11-04, 01:03 PM
It's the cloud of eldritch blasts or cloud of finger of deaths you should be worried about. Or maybe it's just that my players are fond of overkill. :smallbiggrin:

Arbitrarity
2010-11-04, 01:48 PM
So yeah. If I were designing a level 20 BBEG, I try to get a complete bucket of appropriate immunities.

Freedom of Movement
Soulfire Armor (/Veil of Undeath/Death Ward, if applicable. Necropolitan is also an appropriate source)
Elemental Body (air)
Several applications of Energy Immunity/Resist Energy.
Mind Blank
True Seeing
Ray Deflection
Ablative Defenses like Abrupt Jaunt, Wings of Cover, for uncovered effects. Perhaps have Wind Wall available, and a few prepared counterspells.

This covers most non-damage approaches, for a portion of WBL.

Swiftblade really makes great BBEG's. The extra action, 50% displacement vs all attacks, impossible to counter haste, rapid movement, and freedom of movement.
However, to keep buffs up all the time, Incantatrix or similar might be useful. Alternatively, just make sure that prebuffing is reasonable for the BBEG.

Dralnu
2010-11-04, 02:58 PM
Immunity to SoD's is good. It prevents anti-climatic issues. Nigh-immunity CAN work, but it depends on how you go about doing it. You have to give the party ample amounts of clues ahead of time so they figure out by themselves how to defeat the enemy. Avoid making it look like DM fiat.

Examples:
- if BBEG is going to have XYZ immunities, let the players have opportunities to figure some of them out ahead of time
- if the BBEG is going to have an achilles heel, give them a fair chance to figure it out, either through sources (traitor minion spilling the beans, BBEG's journal, etc) or how you describe the battle itself (a BBEG with a low reflex / touch AC could be a slow mover, not dodging attacks but just letting his shields do the work)

If the BBEG is immune to zomgeverything it can still work, depending on how you set it up. For example, if the party is trying to stop the BBEG ritual to attain godhood, make it pretty obvious that if the MacGuffin is destroyed then his ritual fails. That way they just need to SURVIVE the encounter long enough to ruin his grand plan and then book it. Or the party enters the battle with full knowledge that they just need to hold out until The Cavalry arrives.

Also, 3 phases? Sure, but how long is each phase? You said you wanted to set up a battle of attrition. If that mean "50+ round combat," casually ask your players if a 50+ round combat encounter would be enjoyable to them. I know that my players (and myself as the DM) would start losing interest after round 20 or so.

BRC
2010-11-04, 03:02 PM
Also, 3 phases? Sure, but how long is each phase? You said you wanted to set up a battle of attrition. If that mean "50+ round combat," casually ask your players if a 50+ round combat encounter would be enjoyable to them. I know that my players (and myself as the DM) would start losing interest after round 20 or so.
Phase 1 (The Threat) Lasts 1 round. Phase 2 (Holding pattern) is of variable length, but usually 3-4 rounds works best. The idea is to make them feel like they are barely surviving each round, if you wait too long, they'll realize you're pulling your punches or decide that the boss used everything they had in phase 1. Phase 3 (Death Throes) shouldn't last more than one or two rounds.
So that's around a 7 round combat, above average as combats go, but works for a big climactic fight.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-04, 03:02 PM
I think the most important part is to make the BBEG feel like a BBEG. If you have Graz'zt just appear randomly he's going to be boring (usually). If you go into the Abyss and face him in his alter room, he is going to be dynamic, especially if you bust in and he offers you dinner.

The usually part has to do with the Gandalf the White effect. It is possible to have an enemy that you have been looking all over for suddenly come out of the forest at you. Especially if you never nerf people's rest time, and then while resting after a PVE crawl in the woods/mountains the BBEG comes out alone and trys to off the part.

Malbordeus
2010-11-04, 05:00 PM
i'd be inclined to utilise t-bag effects. also bbeg's who can utilise multiple actions in a round (either through quickened spells, greater celerities etc) with harsh, but standard defenses (consider combinations of iron body and greater blink) possibly with some situational one off items, or gigantic oppressive trap that hurts everyone appart from him (stationry cloudkill effect, acid fog, black tentacles, or a ssomething harsh like mass planeshift.)

high level bbeg's have also been attacked prior to facing the party. a lot. so are pretty used to dangerous opponants, and have gotten over the ego that leads to underestimating an adventuring group. it may even be the bbeg's plan to sacrifice the party, or the party may need to barter for powers with the lower hells in order to sever the bbeg's contracts, rendering him vulnerable.

Deth Muncher
2010-11-04, 05:08 PM
Just as an FYI, my BBEG is going straight for Affably Evil - I did a short intro thing with one of my players today, and basically, it went as follows:

The PC (the samurai) was in the basement of a shrine/monastery type deal, where a dark ritual to gain immortality (read: Becoming A Lich For Dummies) was sealed away in a metal container (for style, imagine the Ark of the Covenant from Indiana Jones). As the NPC is explaining why this particular text is locked and sealed away, these shadowy assassins show up (not ninjas, mind you - we're not there yet), and it's clear they're going for the ritual. The NPC starts chanting, and basically pops his final attack - something that wipes out everything in the room. He told the PC to run, and as he did, big flash of light, then silence. PC goes back in the room, sees the dying NPC, who tells him "It's your duty to protect the ritual now" and dies. Cue the BBEG:

BBEG: Yeah, you should probably keep that away from any bad guys who show up trying to take it. -to PC: The man you see before you is quite obviously not from around these parts. While you and everything else here is pseudo-asian, he is dressed like a classy British noble of the 1700s.-
PC: I probably shouldn't trust him, right?
Me: Pretty much. He keeps walking towards you - or rather, towards the ritual. You notice now that the wards on the box are gone.
PC: Well, I know why he's here.
BBEG: Right, so anyway, I'm just gonna need to slip past you and get that ritual and I'll be on my way.
PC: I'm sorry pal, I can't let you do that. ( :smallbiggrin: )
BBEG: Sigh. *casts Forcewave, knocks PC out of the way* Right, so I'll just be taking this then. *lifts the lid to the box, grabs a bag containing the scrolls for the ritual*
PC: Wait! I challenge you to a duel!
BBEG: -shrugs- Okay.
-They commence an Iajutsu duel, the samurai with his katana and the BBEG with his Gnomish Quickrazor. Samurai gets a 24, and as such qualified to learn the character's level. I tell him 20. He responded with an expletive.-
PC: Okay, well...-rolls to hit and damage- He takes 23 damage.
Me: Cool. -rolls as well- You take 4.
PC: Well, now I'm on the other side of him, blocking the door.
BBEG: Look man. I really don't want to have to kill you. I've killed enough people this month - I don't want to skew next month's figures. I've got standards to uphold, and that'd throw everything out of whack. And plus, you really don't know what you're getting yourself into. So just move out of the way, and you and everyone you love can get back to your pathetic rice-farming lives.
PC: I'm not moving.
BBEG: Sigh. *zaps the PC with a Reach Spell'd Vampiric Touch, which drops him to 1 health* Anyway, so I'm gonna go now. *pulls out a bag and drops it on his way out*
Me: The bag is covered in this silvery goo which seems to be evaporating. As it evaporates, the bag opens, revealing a bunch of red, glass beads.
BBEG: By the way, those are Delayed Blast Fireballs. You have five rounds to get out. Bye! -'ports away-

The PC makes it out, complete with an action movie explosion sequence - he gets flung into the air, hits the ground and is Staggered. Thankfully, enough people around town know he's a samurai that they're willing to help him out and tend to him. It takes about two weeks for him to be in good condition again (since anyone with magical healing died from Surprise Fireball Rape).

Me: You awaken to see a bottle of sake and a cup waiting for you. There's a note balanced on the cup which reads: "By the way, now that you're better, don't even think about coming after me. PS- Enjoy the sake!"

absolmorph
2010-11-04, 07:12 PM
That is, quite possibly, the best Affably Evil character I've ever seen.
A question, though: did the BBEG say "five rounds" or "30 seconds"?

Deth Muncher
2010-11-04, 07:47 PM
That is, quite possibly, the best Affably Evil character I've ever seen.
A question, though: did the BBEG say "five rounds" or "30 seconds"?

Five rounds. I probably should have said thirty seconds, but eh.

jiriku
2010-11-04, 07:50 PM
Ah, true Evil is so much more satisfying when it's polite and well-mannered. Well played, sir. Well played.

BRC
2010-11-04, 07:55 PM
Is you're BBEG perhaps a Man of Wealth and Taste?

Anyway, In my mind, this guy would fight indirectly. I see him sitting at a table sipping wine, maybe reading a novel, surrounded by magical defenses. As the PC's try to get to him minions teleport in, walls of fire or stone shoot up to bar their path, parts of the ground vanish, or explosions just randomly occur.

When one of them gets close to him he says "Oh how rude of me, I forgot to offer you a seat", waves his hand, and a blast of force sends them flying into a couch on the opposite wall.
He should have a pair of hunting dogs,loaded with templates and HD advances. And a Djinn for a butler (That ability to conjure wine is very handy).

Deth Muncher
2010-11-04, 08:04 PM
Is you're BBEG perhaps a Man of Wealth and Taste?

Anyway, In my mind, this guy would fight indirectly. I see him sitting at a table sipping wine, maybe reading a novel, surrounded by magical defenses. As the PC's try to get to him minions teleport in, walls of fire or stone shoot up to bar their path, parts of the ground vanish, or explosions just randomly occur.

When one of them gets close to him he says "Oh how rude of me, I forgot to offer you a seat", waves his hand, and a blast of force sends them flying into a couch on the opposite wall.
He should have a pair of hunting dogs,loaded with templates and HD advances. And a Djinn for a butler (That ability to conjure wine is very handy).

Yeah, and he's got no sympathy for the devil, either! :smalltongue: Or wait, that hasn't become a trope, has it?

And yeah, this guy is a very much "get down and do it yourself" kind of dude. While he certainly does employ massive amounts of mooks, they're mostly for defense purposes, and/or obtaining lesser goals. In the case of actually getting something vital, as we saw here, he'll use minions as bait to make sure that all defenses that could hurt him are expended before coming in for the finishing blow.
I totally agree with the hunting dogs of insanity, and the djinni butler. In fact, I'll name him Djeeves.

BRC
2010-11-04, 08:06 PM
Yeah, and he's got no sympathy for the devil, either! :smalltongue: Or wait, that hasn't become a trope, has it?

And yeah, this guy is a very much "get down and do it yourself" kind of dude. While he certainly does employ massive amounts of mooks, they're mostly for defense purposes, and/or obtaining lesser goals. In the case of actually getting something vital, as we saw here, he'll use minions as bait to make sure that all defenses that could hurt him are expended before coming in for the finishing blow.
I totally agree with the hunting dogs of insanity, and the djinni butler. In fact, I'll name him Djeeves.
Does he have a name yet? Because if not, you should just refer to him as "The Gentleman".

Deth Muncher
2010-11-04, 08:11 PM
Does he have a name yet? Because if not, you should just refer to him as "The Gentleman".

Not as of yet. I was hoping for something with a ring akin to "Othar Tryggvasen, Gentleman Adventurer" except, of course, evil. But for now, "The Gentleman" suits well enough. I rather like it. Perhaps developing to "The Gentleman Sorceror," but it's got a slightly different tone to it.

dsmiles
2010-11-04, 08:13 PM
Yeah, and he's got no sympathy for the devil, either! :smalltongue: Or wait, that hasn't become a trope, has it?

Alas, here it is (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SympathyForTheDevil).

BRC
2010-11-04, 08:19 PM
Not as of yet. I was hoping for something with a ring akin to "Othar Tryggvasen, Gentleman Adventurer" except, of course, evil. But for now, "The Gentleman" suits well enough. I rather like it. Perhaps developing to "The Gentleman Sorceror," but it's got a slightly different tone to it.
I like simple names like that (Two of the most memorable villains I ever used went by "The Poet" and "The Gambler"). It says what he is, without actually saying WHO he is. In that regard, it is both more memorable than "Lord Rufus Ravenseye" or whatever (Players rarely remember NPC names), and making him a little more mysterious. Lord Ravenseye is a person, the PC's know how to imagine a person. However "The Gentleman" makes him sound like something slightly more than mortal (The same way people refer to "The King", or "The Captain" instead of using their name)

true_shinken
2010-11-04, 08:28 PM
Alas, here it is (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SympathyForTheDevil).

WHY
DID
YOU
LINK?????

Deth Muncher
2010-11-04, 08:30 PM
I like simple names like that (Two of the most memorable villains I ever used went by "The Poet" and "The Gambler"). It says what he is, without actually saying WHO he is. In that regard, it is both more memorable than "Lord Rufus Ravenseye" or whatever (Players rarely remember NPC names), and making him a little more mysterious. Lord Ravenseye is a person, the PC's know how to imagine a person. However "The Gentleman" makes him sound like something slightly more than mortal (The same way people refer to "The King", or "The Captain" instead of using their name)

You realize, of course, that if I had made him a Wizard instead, he would be a gentleman...
:smallcool:
and a scholar?

YEAAAAAAAAAH.

But anyway, you're right. PCs barely remember the party's names, let alone those of NPCs.

Realms of Chaos
2010-11-04, 08:57 PM
Hmmm...

The tough part here is separating an epic encounter from an intense encounter.

It sounds like you're setting things up so that the BBEG knows what the party can do and can protect against all of it (likely including the counter-divinations of the party). If your party is halfway optimized, you are looking at a pretty one-sided game of rocket-tag. The Bad Guy will be hurting and killing PCs (and their allies, if any) left and right, already knowing many of their defenses and going around them on purpose (because while forgetting a ward is understandable hubris, ignoring the fact that one party member always has deathward on is just foolishness). The party, meanwhile, won't have any idea which of their magical "I win" bullets is going to have any effect (or even if their character has any proper bullets at all), leaving the players to either make a lucky guess in the nick of time or die completely.

This encounter is certainly intense. It will have your players on the edge of their seats, swearing and biting their nails as they wait for their next action. This type of encounter is kind of risky because it can certainly pay off and have your players talking about it years later if they win but they ight end up pretty P.O.d with you if they don't...

That said, this encounter doesn't quite seem epic enough yet. I may be missing something but it seems that you're final encounter ends with this gentlemanly fellow is about him attaining lichdom because... yay, more power? It looks like you're pushing the entire sense of urgency into the rocket-tag combat and not enough into the context of the battle. This guy isn't trying to release evil hordes, call a dark god, end the world, unleash genocide, or even rule the world at this point. He just wants power because... Yay, more power?
I accept that this guy is a big threat to the world and even the planes as a spellcasting lich as he can terrorize any nation at any time using planeshift and teleport. I can even accept that this guy might have a small army of the super-simulacrums that you call clones to help him terrorize multiple places at the same time. Even so, the actual damage that this guy can realistically due is still limited in the grand sceme of things so there isn't really any urgency there (especially as this guy doesn't have any real reason to ruin the lives of average folk... even in the pursuit of more power).
Also, the entire clone set-up kind of prevents any sort of dramatic build-up to a final encounter. It's hard to fear or even respect a guy who you've already killed a half-dozen times, even if you just barely won each fight. The transformation into the dracolich would put some fear in the PCs but you are once again stressing the mechanical aspect of this fight to produce all of the tension that you're going to get.

This encounter needs some more pazazz, some more razzle-dazzle, some zing. Maybe the end intentions of this lich is to tear open a rift among the planes, transporting the souls of the dead not to their rightful planes but to its undead form (which no longer risks overloading with power as a living frame would). Arm the lich with only basic buffs and a few meta-items and put a time limit before it's too late (ninety seconds, maybe), having random tendrils of soul energy from the rift attack the lich's servants and enemies alike as the lich slowly grows more powerful (and far more insane) in his central citadel, talking about how the world will end slowly and painfully and about how he will soon absorb the souls of his fallen clones, multiplying his strength many times over when the rift fully opens.
Put a pivital artifact to this ritual on a pedastal under a prismatic sphere, surrounded with a few dozen guards, encounter traps, and wards to block absence to it and put a wierdstone (players guide to faerun) on top of a large obelisk behind the lich to prevent teleportation into the sphere unless someone flies or climbs up and handles it.
Hold innocents (loved ones/family if possible) captive in large adamantine cages up above the lich, slowly fed upon by tendrils of soul energy unless they are freed in the nick of time (though that may put them in danger of being harmed by the servants of the lich).
Line up two rows of rotting young dragons with their mouths and eyes filled with onyx gems lined up on either side of the path leading up to the artifact and the lich in the inner sanctum, animate dead traps ready to have them spring to life as the party pass by, providing both foreshadowing for the encounter to come and more minions to help the Lich the moment this combat starts.

Giving the battle meaningful context will make for a far more memorable BBEG than a merely powerful one. While this is indeed your last chance to "beat" your players, this is also the last chance you'll have to make this campaign stand out as one of the best that they have ever faced. Be epic, my friend. Be epic.

Deth Muncher
2010-11-04, 09:17 PM
Re: Everything Realms said -

You're certainly right, based on the information I've provided so far. In fact, you're probably right even with what my basic idea for this campaign is that I hadn't mentioned as of yet. So I will, and then will return to responding to what you said:
So, the basic idea of this campaign is much like that of the cartoon, Xialoin Showdown - that is, the BBEG is on a mission to get the most powerful MacGuffins in all planes of existence. Further, he is, literally, trying to control everything - he's kind of trying to make the multiverse one big lump of evil. He is, in essence, the most powerful corporate executive known - interested in expanding his assets to the point of total domination. It'll be up to the PCs to bounce around through the planes (once they realize that's what they're to do) collecting various artifacts, and destroying others so that the BBEG can't get them, and ultimately combine their power to annihilate The Gentleman Sorceror and his numerous minions - which brings me to the other point of his allies: In every plane the PCs go to, the Gentleman will have already been there and set up at least some network of helpers, likely under some innocuous front so that the locals won't mind - or allying with some of the more evil organizations, like the Red Wizards of Thay.

So, as to the lack of epicness presented so far: I was kinda relying on the artifacts to provide the inherent epic-tude: for example, if the BBEG gets a hold of all of the Orbs of Dragonkind, he now has access to all of the dragons, on any plane he goes to. And can use them to destroy whatever he wants. But hey, if he doesn't? That's cool too - he could always make a deal with some devils, because he figures that by the point he'd have to surrender his soul, he'd likely be powerful enough to just kill them and take theirs instead. Problems with dealing with devils? Well hey, why not just go to the Slaad? Or any number of other races.

I do like how you mention that he doesn't really have a reason to be terrorizing people - no, he really doesn't, unless they're in his way of something he needs. In the example of todays encounter, he knew it would be easier just to waltz in and take the ritual after having the traps be disarmed than to try to dispel them himself or coerce the monks into giving it to him. Likewise, if, say, he were to want whatever item it is that controls Earth Elementals, he would likely just go to wherever it is and take it: and if it happens to be protected, slaughter everything that stands in his way of getting it.

BRC
2010-11-04, 10:43 PM
The trick will be to establish The Gentleman as being Evil, without compromising his character. His goal is to get power, and you need to make it clear to the PC's that this is not something they would want to happen. You don't need to give him a specific scheme to do evil, just make it clear that he has no problem with evil at all.

Here's an idea. A powerful demon knows the location of some artifact The Gentleman wants. However, the demon is sealed away in a mountain shrine. The Gentleman hires some bandits (who are unaware exactly who they're working for, or what is in the shrine) to attack it. The Bandit's aren't expected to succeed, they're expected to die horribly as he scrys on them/watches while invisible. Once they've shown him exactly who/what is defending the shrine (Presumably, the PC's are involved somehow) The Gentleman reveals himself. He summons up some minions/ Re-animates the Bandits as undead and sends them to keep the PCs off his back as he casually walks up and opens the shrine, unleashing the demon. He has a brief conversation with it in infernal or Abyssal, and lets it fly off. If he still has minions alive, The Gentleman calls them off and walks away.
If asked why he let that demon loose, he responds "I wanted to ask it a question. Now I have my answer".
If asked how he could unleash such a great evil upon the land, he responds "I needed to ask it a question. If the demon becomes a problem for me, I'm confident in my ability to handle it" or something along those lines.
The point should be clear. While The Gentleman does not do things "For the Evulz", he considers evil a perfectly acceptable means to achieve his ends, and that makes him as, if not more dangerous than your garden variety "Destroy the world" baddie.

dsmiles
2010-11-05, 04:36 AM
You realize, of course, that if I had made him a Wizard instead, he would be a gentleman...
:smallcool:
and a scholar?

ZING!
...and some obligatory text to make the post long enough.

Deth Muncher
2010-11-10, 02:41 AM
So, more musings on The Gentleman.

It's been fairly well established that The Gentleman is Affably Evil - at this point, in my mind, almost to the point of being only to the Evil side of Neutral. Even his plans for ruling the world aren't even REALLY that evil (right now, anyway, though this could be from lack of definition as of yet).

However, I then run into the following: one of my players was giving me some backstory for his character, saying that she (the character) was an escaped prostitute, since she apparently didn't like the heinous things her pimp was doing, and is generally paranoid about her boss finding her.

So then, the question becomes: should this pimp be The Gentleman, or an employee thereof? I'm not sure The Gentleman strikes me as someone who would necessarily run a brothel, but neither do I think he would be one opposed to one.

Further musings on him, and indeed, all BBEGs:

What Constitutes A Good Reason To Conquer Everything?

So, you've got your BBEG, but you need to know what his motivation is. I'm thinking you can break it down into a few possible categories:
-Greed: Your baddy wants it all, and is willing to stomp anyone in their way to get it. See the aforementioned example about freeing a demon in order to get a question answered.

-Delusions of Grandeur: Your baddy thinks he's the best, and can do everything and anything. The thing is, being that this is D&D, given enough time and level-appropriate encounters, the delusions may actually become reality (Wish, anyone?).

-A Hatred of Everything: This one is a bit strained, but it might just be that your baddy just...hates everyone. And everything. And it all needs to be burned, or destroyed, or reshaped in their image, or whatever.

-The Delusioned Extremist: It might be that your baddy is someone who thinks they're doing the right thing, but in fact have become misguided to their quest. See: Miko Miyazaki.

-For The Evulz: This one kinda only works if your baddy is either an embodiment of pure evil, or an agent thereof. It might just be that evil is literally all they know how to do, and so they're doing it. Likewise, this one works with the "Unleash the eldritch horror" idea - they're doing it because damned if they want those good guys to exist!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

For The Gentleman, I feel he does evil primarily out of greed. Again, he's not being a rampaging d-bag about it - he just really likes nice things. Hence why he has a butler who can cast Wish all the time, so as to be constantly stocked with the finest consumables. This works even better with the oft-quoted way of nerfing Wish, in that when you wish for something expensive, it actually comes from someone else's possession: The Gentleman doesn't care if you have the only surviving bottle of Elven Superwine from the First Age of Elves - he merely knows that he wants it with his dinner tonight, and that he will have it. Partially, though, I feel like he does stuff for the evulz as well - in that, I wholeheartedly plan on having a few scenes with him kicking puppies for a giggle, or Finger of Deathing a commoner randomly just because it struck him as a good (except, y'know, not) idea at the time.

Godskook
2010-11-10, 03:01 AM
However, I then run into the following: one of my players was giving me some backstory for his character, saying that she (the character) was an escaped prostitute, since she apparently didn't like the heinous things her pimp was doing, and is generally paranoid about her boss finding her.

Having him be a previous client of hers would be interesting.....

Deth Muncher
2010-11-10, 08:09 AM
Having him be a previous client of hers would be interesting.....

Hm...point, point. I could totally play up all sorts of hilarious things:

"Hey, you there. Don't I remember you? Don't you have a tattoo of a griffin on your left buttock, and a scar the size of a copper piece about half way up your back? Yeaaaaah..."

BRC
2010-11-10, 09:31 AM
I think that a BBEG whose sole motivation is "Bwahaha, I'm Greedy" is going to get old. I think you can get some philosophy, the Gentleman isn't just out to get everything, he's out to prove a point, the point being that, if one is willing to do what is necessary, one can achieve anything. He's not just getting that ancient elven Superwine, he's saying that Anybody (Who happens to be him) could get that Superwine, or the power needed to get it, if they were willing to abandon silly things like "Morality" and "Ethics".

Also, am I the only one to imagine the Gentleman as having a private mansion Demiplane, you know, in addition to his summer home, winter home, fall home, spring home, second home, vacation home, and guest house.

Deth Muncher
2010-11-10, 10:09 AM
I think that a BBEG whose sole motivation is "Bwahaha, I'm Greedy" is going to get old. I think you can get some philosophy, the Gentleman isn't just out to get everything, he's out to prove a point, the point being that, if one is willing to do what is necessary, one can achieve anything. He's not just getting that ancient elven Superwine, he's saying that Anybody (Who happens to be him) could get that Superwine, or the power needed to get it, if they were willing to abandon silly things like "Morality" and "Ethics".

Also, am I the only one to imagine the Gentleman as having a private mansion Demiplane, you know, in addition to his summer home, winter home, fall home, spring home, second home, vacation home, and guest house.

Re: Paragraph 1 - I think you're right. The strange thing is, I see him in my head as someone who uses evil to accidentally do good? Or rather, someone who does evil, but doesn't necessarily care if good comes out of it (unless it gets in his way). Such things have been in my head like: going and lacing the entire food supply of a nation with powerful drugs, and then having the only way for the nation to be cured of its addiction would be for the nation to send heroes off to fetch artifacts for him so he can focus on doing other things. But the thing is, all the artifacts he wants are unspeakably evil - which means that PCs have to go slay evil things in order to get them. So it almost leans Neutral? Ish? But at the same time, he's clearly abusing his power and addicting an entire nation to drugs and extorting them.

Re: Paragraph 2 - See Sir Patrick Stewart's Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesMagnificentMansion.htm). At CL20, he's got an extra-dimensional mansion that's 600 cubic feet (I think - I might be poorly mathing this), lasts for 40 hours at a time, has 40 servants, and has enough food for a nine-course banquet for 240 people. Although I could totally see him as having a base of operations on each plane he operates on (which is, honestly, most of them), and perhaps a sweet mansion somewhere he enjoys, what other need would he have for mansions when he can just whip one up?

EDIT: Random note - on a medium to medium-high level of optimization, what kind of Charisma should The Gentleman have, assuming standard WBL for a level 20 character, and/or through the abuse of followers helping him?

Realms of Chaos
2010-11-10, 10:15 AM
Thinking about the gentleman, one inspiration that seems quite plausible is doing acts simply to leave a legacy behind. For example...

Why do you do what you do?
"A very fine question, my friend. You see, I have long since realized that our lives, colorful though they be, hardly leave their mark on the multiverse at large. Dust in the wind and all that, you know? Well, that got me down to thinking. If I wanted to leave a mark, really show the world that I've been there, I'd have to do something nobody has ever done before. And, well, here I am. *chuckles*"

But why evil rather than good?
"Well, that really all goes back to my mama (pronounced mu-maw in my head), I suppose. Every night before I went to bed, she'd tell the most delightful stories to me. Though she told me of all manner of knights and heroes, all of them kind of get mixed up in my head. No, the one story that truly sticks out in my mind is that of the boogeyman. So many heroes and one villain and yet I only remember the villain.
Thus-far, I'd like to think that I'm well on my way to surpassing my childhood "hero". Soon enough, I will be the new legend told to small ones around the world and throughout the cosmos. I hope that you don't take any of my actions towards you personally. A villain has to be a villain, after all. More tea?"

What about death?
"Oh, that? Yeah, I suppose I might die. Not soon and not to you, obviously, but very little lasts forever. I'm actually in the middle of looking into magical means to put off that whole dying business for awhile, indefinitely with any luck. Nastier business than you would think, actually. If I have to die, though... it will be on my own terms. If I may be so blunt, I refuse to be torn away from life as easily as my clones now that I've... ooh, I think the scones are ready."

BRC
2010-11-10, 11:04 AM
It's possible that the Gentleman has some customized version of the Magnificent Mansion spell that grants him a continuous Mansion, rather than conjuring up a new one every time he casts the spell.
Some Minions/Henchmen.

Djeeves: The Butler: Noble Djinn , appears as a blue-skinned man in a tailored suit. Usually remains Invisible, yet always close at hand, until The Gentleman calls him.

Charlie: The Chauffeur: The Gentleman owns a magical Carriage drawn by a team of Nightmares. The Carriage can Fly (with the help of the Nightmares), Plane Shift, or cast Greater Teleport. It is driven and maintained by a Tiefling Warlock named Charlie. Charlie's Eldrich Blast manifests itself as a Riding Crop, normally used to spur on the Team (It dosn't deal damage in this case), it can stretch itself out to hit any target within 30 feet (Normally Charlie uses Eldritch Glaive though). It's said that The Gentleman won The Carriage, the Team, and Charlie in a game of cards with Colonel Ashlorug'Ack.
Edit: The Gentleman is probably perfectly capable of getting around himself, but that's not nearly as stylish as riding around in a magical carriage. And The Gentleman is nothing if not Stylish. Charlie may also serve as The Gentleman's errand boy, delivering messages, picking up and transporting people, and performing other simple tasks The Gentleman needs done.
[Name Needed]: The Groundskeeper: A Neutral Evil Dwarven Druid (or at least stated as one). The Gentleman has gathered Flora and Fauna from across the planes and built a magnificent Garden, the garden is maintained and protected by the surly Groundskeeper. If there is an intruder in the Garden, the Groundskeeper will try to steer them close to one of the many dangerous Plants kept there.

Colonel Ashlorug'Ack: The Distinguished Houseguest: A Gelugon, Ashlorug'Ack is a seasoned veteran of the Blood Wars, though for some time he has remained an honored guest of The Gentleman. Ashlorug'Ack is usually rather polite, though he does have a habit of telling old war stories and off-color jokes. The leaders of the Nine Hells realized that a partnership with The Gentleman could be very beneficial to their cause, so they sent Ashlorug'Ack to act as their envoy, when the Gentleman wants to contact the lower planes for some reason, he usually does so via The Colonel, who tries his best to find some devil who has what The Gentleman wants, and is willing to make a deal. In many ways, Ashlorug'Ack is more an agent of The Gentleman's than anything. As a guest of the Gentleman, Ashlorug will generally obey his wishes, and will not attack other guests, however he is very proud, and if offended may challenge the insulting party to a duel.

Professor Coldgrasp: The Other Distinguished Houseguest: Once a skilled Wizard, the Professor was killed by an experiment gone wrong, and returned as a Ghost. The Professor now dwells in The Gentleman's mansion, usually possessing a body with his Malevolence ability so as to properly interact with physical objects. The Professor's knowledge of the arcane is unmatched, and he freely offers The Gentleman use of this knowledge in exchange for access to The Gentleman's library and the chance to study the wide variety of fascinating magical items The Gentleman collects. For his part, The Gentleman is more than okay with this arrangement, as he frequently does not know what a given item does (Merely that it's powerful and he wants it) until he lets the professor study it. Currently, The Professor uses a young boy as his host, and guests are often shocked to see a young child expound at length on magical techniques used by an empire that fell millennia before.

Lady Anna Scareen: Another Distinguished Houseguest: A skilled Singer and Actress. The Gentleman saw Lady Scareen perform and was impressed by her legendary Beauty and talent. A skilled Bard, Lady Scareen stays in the Gentleman's mansion as a guest. The Gentlman used some of the space in the massive demiplane to create a special Theater for Anna to perform in, and is fond of gathering skilled actors and musicians from across the planes in order to put on shows and concerts, usually starring Anna herself, and inviting a wide variety of notable individuals (Nothing necessarily evil about these performances, the actors are all well compensated, and the mansion is placed under a Zone of Peace spell in order to prevent violence). Nobody is quite sure why Anna stays with The Gentleman, some say she loves the livestyle he provides her, others claim he promised her eternal youth and beauty, or has her under some kind of magical compulsion. (Personally, I could see The Gentleman inviting the PC's to one of these Performances. For extra hilarity, have them seated next to The Colonel).
Pierre Maticho: Another Distinguished Houseguest: A poor, yet Brilliant Artist, The Gentleman discovered him selling sketches on the street and recognized his talent. Skilled at almost every form of visual art (Painting, sculpture, sketching, ect) Pierre lives in The Gentleman's mansion where he is provided with a spacious studio and any materials he desires, no matter how strange or exotic. The Gentleman serves as a Patron for Pierre, but does not interfere with the Artist's work. Occasionally, when visiting something especially scenic, The Gentleman will take Pierre along, in case he wants to make sketches. The Gentleman also commissions the occasional piece, usually as a gift to somebody, and Pierre is more than happy to oblige. However, generally, Pierre is allowed to go where he pleases and make whatever art he is inspired to make.

Alexsander and Augustus: The Gentleman's prized hunting hounds. I would say stat them as Advanced Hellhounds, but make them look however you want. I picture them acting like big puppies around their master, rolling over so he can scratch their bellies, ect.

Quietus
2010-11-10, 11:23 AM
Re: Prostitute character - I like the idea of having him have been a client of hers, but I'd play it off as him having been one of "those" clients, the ones she didn't get paid for, that she was ordered to take care of because her pimp was trying to curry favor. This has the implication that her old "friends" become part of one of The Gentleman's plans, and you can have an arc of the campaign that deals closely with them, giving a bit of time in the spotlight for her backstory.

You could even make it that the fact that he was one of "those" clients wasn't The Gentleman's idea, it was the pimp's, and perhaps The Gentleman was .. well, a gentleman. Treated her well, offered her drink of choice, didn't demand anything she was willing to give.. or maybe he specifically wanted to .. well, the rest of that goes beyond even what I'm willing to commit to writing on this forum, but there's a number of ways you could swing that.

Rasman
2010-11-10, 12:03 PM
*excluding reading any other posts to keep from tainting my ideas and just saying "what he said"*

BBEGs tend to be INCREDIBLY WEAK

"did...he just said the BBEG is weak? ignore this guy, he's dumb"

no no, hear me out. The BBEG is always terribly weak in some aspect. Sure, he looks powerful and sounds powerful and does things that makes him seem powerful, but put him in a room with a Fluffy Bunny and he's a softie.

I'm currently in a campaign where our, seemingly ultimate, BBEG is a creepy/crazy wizard that is the neutral party in a war between the forces of Chaos and the forces of We Don't Want The World To End Yet. He's also fairly paranoid to the point that he has contingencies for when people even touch him. But he's still mortal, as far as we know, so he has weakness...just not as many as if he were just a fighter...

...so build him to be as terrible as you possibly can, but for a BBEG, you need to build them around one or two KEY weaknesses that your players can eventually target in order to prevent them from attaining that ultimate platform of power.

Maho-Tsukai
2010-11-10, 12:10 PM
It depends on the power level of the PCs, really. I had a very long string of campaigns that had a number of main villains though one of them was ongoing and turned out to be the BBEG. He was an epic level wizard, but during the final battle he became so powerful that he literally became a god...and not just any god, mind you, but one with a monstrously huge divine rank because he had achieved that power by more or less absorbing all the other gods, which meant he had the powers of every god in the campaign world. He was so powerful Goku would wet his pants just thinking about him. However, he kinda had to be that powerful because at that point he was facing an epic level party that featured multiple characters with epic spellcasting that would obliterate anything other then an extremely powerful god.

So, long story short, the power of a BBEG should be scaled to the power of the PCs, pure and simple.

BRC
2010-11-10, 02:12 PM
*excluding reading any other posts to keep from tainting my ideas and just saying "what he said"*

BBEGs tend to be INCREDIBLY WEAK

"did...he just said the BBEG is weak? ignore this guy, he's dumb"

no no, hear me out. The BBEG is always terribly weak in some aspect. Sure, he looks powerful and sounds powerful and does things that makes him seem powerful, but put him in a room with a Fluffy Bunny and he's a softie.

I'm currently in a campaign where our, seemingly ultimate, BBEG is a creepy/crazy wizard that is the neutral party in a war between the forces of Chaos and the forces of We Don't Want The World To End Yet. He's also fairly paranoid to the point that he has contingencies for when people even touch him. But he's still mortal, as far as we know, so he has weakness...just not as many as if he were just a fighter...

...so build him to be as terrible as you possibly can, but for a BBEG, you need to build them around one or two KEY weaknesses that your players can eventually target in order to prevent them from attaining that ultimate platform of power.
I think you're confusing "A weakness" with "Being Able for the PC's to defeat", which is kind of the point. usually when people say "The BBEG has a weakness" they mean " If you so much as say the word "Lightning" around him he will shrivel up and die". Personally, I hate the "Secret Weakness" philosophy of BBEG design, because it tends to mean one of two things.
1: The BBEG is defeatable without knowing the Weakness, but if you do it's a Cakewalk.
Result: PC's Find out the Weakness, use it, fight is a Cakewalk.
2: The BBEG is basically indestructible unless you use their Secret Weakness, in which case they are defeatable.
Result: PC's find out the weakness (Because don't they always), one or two PC's capable of making use of it (If "It" is some ancient sword, or Fire or whatever), Get to have fun while everybody who can't throw Fireballs, or isn't holding the ancient sword of killingtheBBEG throws futile attacks that barely tickle the BBEG.

Deth Muncher
2010-11-11, 09:40 PM
I think you're confusing "A weakness" with "Being Able for the PC's to defeat", which is kind of the point. usually when people say "The BBEG has a weakness" they mean " If you so much as say the word "Lightning" around him he will shrivel up and die". Personally, I hate the "Secret Weakness" philosophy of BBEG design, because it tends to mean one of two things.
1: The BBEG is defeatable without knowing the Weakness, but if you do it's a Cakewalk.
Result: PC's Find out the Weakness, use it, fight is a Cakewalk.
2: The BBEG is basically indestructible unless you use their Secret Weakness, in which case they are defeatable.
Result: PC's find out the weakness (Because don't they always), one or two PC's capable of making use of it (If "It" is some ancient sword, or Fire or whatever), Get to have fun while everybody who can't throw Fireballs, or isn't holding the ancient sword of killingtheBBEG throws futile attacks that barely tickle the BBEG.


Yknow, I almost feel like his weakness should be something that isn't static: Rather, I remember there's some huge monster that has DR, and that DR changes based on whatever hit it last. Thus, a sword hits it, it gets DR vs Slashing. If something else hits it, it switches. Is there an armor property or something for that?

Also, unless I do something for him, the most HP this guy is gonna have is going to be 80 + Con modifier. Even assuming a modest +2, that's still ONLY 120 HP - also known as "a few hits and he's down. Now, once he gains lichdom, that boosts him to 240HP (plus respawns if they miss his phylactery), which is slightly more formidable, but still.

Now, of course, throwing up multiple ways to have him not get hit are more optimal ways of not dying - miss chance, concealment, etc.

Also, there is one thing I'd been toying around with this guy: He could know every spell. How? Knowstones: so long as you have one on you, you know the spell. So what if he found some way to drain knowstones their spells, and thus learned every spell available to Wizards or Sorcerors? It'd be a pain for bookkeeping, but at least he'd have them.

BRC
2010-11-11, 11:09 PM
Yknow, I almost feel like his weakness should be something that isn't static: Rather, I remember there's some huge monster that has DR, and that DR changes based on whatever hit it last. Thus, a sword hits it, it gets DR vs Slashing. If something else hits it, it switches. Is there an armor property or something for that?

Also, unless I do something for him, the most HP this guy is gonna have is going to be 80 + Con modifier. Even assuming a modest +2, that's still ONLY 120 HP - also known as "a few hits and he's down. Now, once he gains lichdom, that boosts him to 240HP (plus respawns if they miss his phylactery), which is slightly more formidable, but still.

Now, of course, throwing up multiple ways to have him not get hit are more optimal ways of not dying - miss chance, concealment, etc.

Also, there is one thing I'd been toying around with this guy: He could know every spell. How? Knowstones: so long as you have one on you, you know the spell. So what if he found some way to drain knowstones their spells, and thus learned every spell available to Wizards or Sorcerors? It'd be a pain for bookkeeping, but at least he'd have them.
Don't forget, he's a powerful sorcerer. He's not going to just stand there and be hit.

As for the Knowstones, perhaps. It sounds like that could be one of his goals, maybe he just perfected the process of draining Knowstones, and has sent Agents into the world to gather as many as possible.
Also, what do you think of the Servants/Distinguished Houseguests?

Deth Muncher
2010-11-11, 11:22 PM
Don't forget, he's a powerful sorcerer. He's not going to just stand there and be hit.

As for the Knowstones, perhaps. It sounds like that could be one of his goals, maybe he just perfected the process of draining Knowstones, and has sent Agents into the world to gather as many as possible.
Also, what do you think of the Servants/Distinguished Houseguests?
No, no he wouldn't. He'd throw up Blur and all sorts of junk to give him miss chance so they can't hit him.

Also, I'm almost thinking about giving him some levels in Artificer - maybe even just one. That'd let him drain artifacts and such, perhaps, and would make sense about the draining of Knowstones.

Of course, he could just have Knowstones encrusted into his entire outfit.

Also, re: the houseguests, they all seem like awesome NPCs, though I'm not really sure what the Colonel actually IS. (I've never heard of Gelugons before.)

absolmorph
2010-11-11, 11:26 PM
Gelugon is just a really fancy name for Ice Devils.

BRC
2010-11-11, 11:29 PM
Also, re: the houseguests, they all seem like awesome NPCs, though I'm not really sure what the Colonel actually IS. (I've never heard of Gelugons before.)
Gelugons, also known as Ice Devils, are commanders in the armies of hell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#iceDevilGelugon).
They look like big blue Insects, though I can't help but imagine the Colonel as one of those, but wearing a uniform like This (http://www.gowlland.me.uk/images/Geoffrey_Cathcart_in_Uniform.JPG), minus the Hat, plus a big icy mustache.

Edit: How big are Knowstones? Maybe he's had them carved down and made a cane or walking stick out of a bunch of them?

Deth Muncher
2010-11-12, 01:00 AM
Gelugons, also known as Ice Devils, are commanders in the armies of hell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#iceDevilGelugon).
They look like big blue Insects, though I can't help but imagine the Colonel as one of those, but wearing a uniform like This (http://www.gowlland.me.uk/images/Geoffrey_Cathcart_in_Uniform.JPG), minus the Hat, plus a big icy mustache.

Edit: How big are Knowstones? Maybe he's had them carved down and made a cane or walking stick out of a bunch of them?

So after looking at the picture, I can only really imagine him with a pith helmet, monocle, and large icy moustache. Nyeheheheh. I need someone who can do art to do this...

A knowstone, according to their description in Drag.Mag. 333, is "a small, smooth, semiprecious stone inscribed with an ancient arcane symbol." In addition, they always appear as jewelery, but do not take up body slots. Thus, you can have an infinite number of them on your body. Thus, there can be some way to do this.I like the idea of the staff or walking stick made of them, but then there becomes the issue of "what happens if he's disarmed?" I certainly don't want to have to figure out what spells he has on him at all times. Perhaps by jewel-encrusting his cloak or something? That's definitely artifact-level status: The Cloak of Spells.

In fact...I may have just found something of a plot-hook here: The Gentleman is disassembling artifacts in order to power this major artifact, The Cloak of Spells. While he will ultimately succeed in his plans, because, well, I want him to, it'll give me a chance to let the PCs figure out the fact that he will, in fact, have every spell possible, and to plan accordingly. Or something.

EDIT: Also, what are some interesting megaflora for him to have in his garden/ on the grounds? They should be a nice mix of "stuff that goes into spells as rare components" to "things that will eat unwanted guests."

I'm open to homebrew.

BRC
2010-11-12, 02:05 PM
Topiary Guardians from MMIII would be perfect.

Also, Pith Helmet and Monocle is a PERFECT Look for the Colonel.

Adventure Idea: The Hunts. As a matter of Entertainment, The Gentleman is known to summon (or capture and then release) powerful creatures and let them run loose in the countryside, usually for 24 hours. At which point The Gentleman and a group of friends, usually including The Colonel, will arrive and proceed to hunt down the creature in question. Any Havok the creature causes during it's rampage is considered an acceptable price for somebody else to pay for his entertainment (Besides, a flattened Town is a good sign the Creature's been there).

Deth Muncher
2010-11-12, 03:46 PM
Topiary Guardians from MMIII would be perfect.

Also, Pith Helmet and Monocle is a PERFECT Look for the Colonel.

Adventure Idea: The Hunts. As a matter of Entertainment, The Gentleman is known to summon (or capture and then release) powerful creatures and let them run loose in the countryside, usually for 24 hours. At which point The Gentleman and a group of friends, usually including The Colonel, will arrive and proceed to hunt down the creature in question. Any Havok the creature causes during it's rampage is considered an acceptable price for somebody else to pay for his entertainment (Besides, a flattened Town is a good sign the Creature's been there).

I like the Topiary Guardians, but I'm also thinking something like one of those pitcher plants - y'know, the ones that look harmless, but actually eat bugs and such. Except on a grander scale. Kinda like Victreebel, actually. :P

Also, I like the idea of the hunt - especially if it takes place over a certain part of the country every year, so that people get accustomed to it: "Oh damn, it's Blarn 15th again, that means we've got another horrible monster coming around again..."

BRC
2010-11-12, 03:55 PM
I like the Topiary Guardians, but I'm also thinking something like one of those pitcher plants - y'know, the ones that look harmless, but actually eat bugs and such. Except on a grander scale. Kinda like Victreebel, actually. :P

Also, I like the idea of the hunt - especially if it takes place over a certain part of the country every year, so that people get accustomed to it: "Oh damn, it's Blarn 15th again, that means we've got another horrible monster coming around again..."

That might be an interesting adventure.
The PC's arrive in an area, and see people fleeing. When asked the people say "Oh, every year, during this time, great misfortune strikes this valley. Terrible creatures appears out of nowhere and terrorizes the valley!"
The PC's, being heroic sorts, decide to get to the bottom of this. Sure enough, that night, a Roar sounds, and several big nasty Things start running around. After awhile, they run into one of the Hunting Parties (I imagine several creatures are unleashed, perhaps given point values, and several hunting parties enter the valley. At the end, they tally up the trophies and see who won!), perhaps The Gentleman's personal party. He explains whats going on and invites them to join in the fun!

Deth Muncher
2010-11-12, 11:51 PM
That might be an interesting adventure.
The PC's arrive in an area, and see people fleeing. When asked the people say "Oh, every year, during this time, great misfortune strikes this valley. Terrible creatures appears out of nowhere and terrorizes the valley!"
The PC's, being heroic sorts, decide to get to the bottom of this. Sure enough, that night, a Roar sounds, and several big nasty Things start running around. After awhile, they run into one of the Hunting Parties (I imagine several creatures are unleashed, perhaps given point values, and several hunting parties enter the valley. At the end, they tally up the trophies and see who won!), perhaps The Gentleman's personal party. He explains whats going on and invites them to join in the fun!

Hm, but what kind of monsters would be appropriate for such an event? I mean, obviously something big and annoying, and something that people hate...

I've got it.

Trolls. The Gentleman goes Trolling.

Once a year, The Gentleman and his compatriots use a customized Gate spell to shunt a hundred assorted flavors of Trolls into X Region (this will likely be in Greyhawk, though I may have it be in Faerun, since such things are...less uncommon, I guess? Crazy magic things, I mean). These trolls then go cause havoc amongst the villages in the area, or just taking up residence in caves. From there, The Gentleman, The Colonel and some of their friends go across said countryside, basically raining as much fire and destruction down upon the trolls as possible. Any townsfolk who get in the way are brutally slaughtered, either by being ripped apart and eaten by the trolls, or by being set on fire or something else suitably horrific by The Gentleman or his compatriots. After the trolls have been routed from the area, he leaves a sack of 5,000 GP to whoever rules the area, for damages.

fireinakasha
2010-11-13, 12:53 AM
Hmmm...

The tough part here is separating an epic encounter from an intense encounter.

*snip*

Giving the battle meaningful context will make for a far more memorable BBEG than a merely powerful one. While this is indeed your last chance to "beat" your players, this is also the last chance you'll have to make this campaign stand out as one of the best that they have ever faced. Be epic, my friend. Be epic.

This.

Marching into the BBEG's throne room and lobbing some dice and rules back and forth might certainly end your campaign on a positive note.

But clashing with your BBEG in a race against time aboard his airship as it spirals, ablaze and out of control, over a chasm in the fabric of reality, with his own traitorous advisor and said advisor's zombiedragon army raining hell down on all involved parties? That's a story to tell at future tables.

DragonOfUndeath
2010-11-13, 02:36 AM
But clashing with your BBEG in a race against time aboard his airship as it spirals, ablaze and out of control, over a chasm in the fabric of reality, with his own traitorous advisor and said advisor's zombiedragon army raining hell down on all involved parties? That's a story to tell at future tables.

YOINK!
thanks for my next boss fight :smalltongue:

fireinakasha
2010-11-13, 03:13 AM
YOINK!
thanks for my next boss fight :smalltongue:

My pleasure :smallbiggrin:

I especially love this idea because it changes the metagame a whole lot. Suddenly, the PCs are less worried about Wail of the Banshee than they are about Control Winds. How often does that happen?

Deth Muncher
2010-11-15, 01:40 PM
My pleasure :smallbiggrin:

I especially love this idea because it changes the metagame a whole lot. Suddenly, the PCs are less worried about Wail of the Banshee than they are about Control Winds. How often does that happen?

Heh. I actually kinda ran something like this, except instead of Control Winds, it was a bunch of Air Elementals buffeting the airships.

ANYhoo. So after thinking about The Gentleman and his cohorts, I realized that he's probably got the ability to take over all of everything, ever. Why? Because if he's friends with an Ice Devil, he can just call in a favor to get a devil army to come and destroy anything he himself can't destroy/can gate in whatever he wants. I *may* need to scale back his power level.

Also, thoughts on Trolling? Or should I make the monsters something bigger but less numerous?

BRC
2010-11-15, 02:04 PM
Heh. I actually kinda ran something like this, except instead of Control Winds, it was a bunch of Air Elementals buffeting the airships.

ANYhoo. So after thinking about The Gentleman and his cohorts, I realized that he's probably got the ability to take over all of everything, ever. Why? Because if he's friends with an Ice Devil, he can just call in a favor to get a devil army to come and destroy anything he himself can't destroy/can gate in whatever he wants. I *may* need to scale back his power level.

Also, thoughts on Trolling? Or should I make the monsters something bigger but less numerous?

Nothing is Free, especially when dealing with Devils. The Colonel is The Gentleman's link to the Nine Hells, but the Colonel doesn't have any Devils under his command, or if he does it's just a couple Bearded devils and maybe an Imp or two. He can probably get an army, but there will be a Price, a hefty one too. The Gentleman isn't quite powerful enough to break a contract with the Lords of the Nine and get away with it. If the Gentleman went with the "Get an Army of devils to do all my dirty work" option, then he would be no better than a puppet working for his fiendish benefactors. All The Colonel can do is introduce The Gentleman to a devil willing to deal.

Whats more, the Gentleman may not want to take over everything ever, he could probably conquer quite a few nations, but then he would have to Rule them, and that takes time away from living the good life. If his motivation is Greed, he would be after Personal power, like building an artifact that gives him every spell ever. He'd rather live like a King than be one.

Edit: In addition, he probably DOES use summoned minions to get things done. But you described him as a "Get his hands dirty" type of guy, he worked hard for his power, and probably enjoys using it, so he will do things personally. Yes, he could probably gate in a Balor to do his bidding, but what's the fun in that? Plus, he may not use his power in the most efficient way possible, he spends a high-level spell slot each day to keep his Mansion existing, uses his resources to go Trolling, sponsor Artists, put on Shows, and generally live the good life. He seems like the type to expend massive amounts of power in showy displays, Gating in a Pit Fiend, then playing it in a game of Chess using colossal illusions, with a convenient piece of countryside as their board. For him, it's about the Journey, not the destination. He's accumulated enough Wealth and Power to live the rest of his life in his Mansion, existing in a state of luxury emperors could only dream of/ But he won't do that, he's addicted to the Hunt, the thrill that acquiring more power brings him. That, above all else, is why he is dangerous. He will never stop attempting to acquire more power. Right now, he's snatching up Spellstones, what happens when the only way to gain more power is to sacrifice entire continents, consume the souls of the people, and ascend to godhood?

In addition, what's the problem with The Gentleman using minions to achieve his goals. This is an awesome BBEG, but don't overuse him. It won't be fun if every adventure is "The Gentleman shows up, all you can do is stand aside while he achieves his goals". Let the PC's win, let them Thwart his schemes. The good thing about The Gentleman having a general goal like "More" is that he has countless other Schemes going at any one time, meaning he's not too invested in any one scheme. So the PC's stopped his agents from acquiring the Dragon's Heart, ah well, it's just another shiny magical item he would store away for later.

In fact, he might LIKE the PC's, he might enjoy that they stand up to him and thwart his schemes. He would rather not teleport in and smash them to pieces, because they're fun! Knowing that they are out there, fighting his minions, ready to make plans he thought were guaranteed successes into failures makes things more interesting then just sending minions to get things and waiting for them to return. Consider this, the Gentleman was not always a 20th level sorcerer. He was once low level, he climbed his way to the top with blood, sweat, and magic. While he enjoys his current power, he misses the old days, he misses the adrenaline that comes with succeeding by the skin of your teeth.

I could imagine him making a "Gentleman's Agreement" with the PC's. He's trying to do something, they show up, and he says "Well, this is interesting, I'll go easy on you. If you are able to knock my hat off my head, I'll leave the ancient scrolls alone for now". Then you send them up against a, say, 8th level Sorcerer (The Gentleman is holding back to make things interesting), and when they "Kill" him, he's just been hurt enough for his hat to fall off. He bows with a flourish, claps his hands, and Charlie shows up in the Carriage to take him away. Maybe at one point he actually fights them without Spells, simply buffing himself a little and using a Rapier.

At higher levels, they are able to thwart his more important schemes, and his opinion changes. They are now Frustrating. They were Fun when he knew he could have them killed whenever he wanted, and when all they did was stop minor machinations he was pulling off on general principle. Now, they are getting In His Way. By the end of the Campaign, they are a thorn in his side, and he is wishing he'd had them killed long ago. The PC's will Love to Hate this guy and his arrogance. When they learn they are getting under his skin, they will feel triumphant.

dsmiles
2010-11-15, 02:09 PM
Whats more, the Gentleman may not want to take over everything ever, he could probably conquer quite a few nations, but then he would have to Rule them, and that takes time away from living the good life. If his motivation is Greed, he would be after Personal power, like building an artifact that gives him every spell ever. He'd rather live like a King than be one.

I've used this for several different incarnations of essentially the same PC. He didn't want to rule the world, he just wanted to be rich enough to buy it. He didn't actually want to buy it, he just wanted to be that rich. (And in one incarnation, he made it to his goal, by establishing a trading empire. :smallbiggrin:)

gurban
2010-11-15, 02:28 PM
A good tactic, especially if there are multiple casters, is redirect spells. Your BBEG could take one spell, and slam it into an ally. Disregard spell effects and just make it xDy damage.

Volos
2010-11-15, 02:31 PM
Give your BBEG a copy of this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilOverlordList).

Deth Muncher
2010-11-15, 08:13 PM
Re: BRC - You do have a point there. He probably wouldn't want to find himself making deals with Devils all that much, since as you point out, if he reneges on them he's quite screwed.

Also, I have no problem with him having minions - I just have to think of inventive and/or thematic minions for him to hire. Like Spiky - a street punk with Spiked armor and a Spiked shield, who uses them to as much benefit as possible. Or the stereotypical Fire Mage/Ice Mage duo. Etc etc. Also, I do totally plan on having the Red Wizards of Thay screw with the PCs once they get to Faerun, since they'll be allied with The Gentleman. It's just that, as you edited in, he DOES like to get his hands dirty - so while he might send off his minions/summon more to get in the way of the PCs, he'll likely show up to fetch what he REALLY wants himself, or he may decide that his minions are being ineffective and take over (though that feels slightly weak).

I do like the idea of him giving the PCs a sporting chance for things - though I wholeheartedly intend on him having some way to end up getting what he wants even if they do win (for some artifacts, anyway). i.e. "Why yes, I DID say I wouldn't come and take the Dragon's Heart from you if you knocked my hat off. However, my good friend The General here has some other opinions on the matter." And the suchlike.

And yes, I can totally see him raging at the PCs once they get to be a high enough level to best him.

Re: Gurban - does that spell exist? Because that's a damn good idea.

Re: Wolfgang - Come come now, like I haven't been reading over that for the past few days. :smallwink:

BRC
2010-11-15, 08:47 PM
Thematic Minions/henchmen are always a good idea. Though don't forget to let the PC's actually win occasionally. Nobody likes to be told "You did all that, but in the end it doesn't matter because he just got the Dragon Heart another way".They want to hear that they put a stop to his plans in some way, that they were a thorn in his side.

As for Minions/Henchmen, It might be a good idea to have some basic "Gentleman's Minions" food groups, rather than introducing new antagonists each time and saying "Oh, by the way, they're working for The Gentleman". Instead the PC's recognize some signs (Hrmm, band of thuggish mercenaries led by a guy with spikes all over his amour) and reach conclusions (The Gentleman is behind this).


Lets see, potential Minion Ideas
The Attorney: Needs a better name. Basically, this guy shows up and uses knowledge of local laws, bribery, and political wheeling and dealing to get local governments to do what The Gentleman needs done. A noncombatant, he's more likely to turn the Law against the PC's than anything. He generally gets things done legally (Like, say, simply buying a magical item The Gentleman is after), meaning the PC's need to convince the other party not to go through with the deal, rather than simply providing another group of bad guys for the PC's to slash through.

eh, my imagination's broke right now, I'll try to come up with some more later.

Deth Muncher
2010-11-15, 09:26 PM
Thematic Minions/henchmen are always a good idea. Though don't forget to let the PC's actually win occasionally. Nobody likes to be told "You did all that, but in the end it doesn't matter because he just got the Dragon Heart another way".They want to hear that they put a stop to his plans in some way, that they were a thorn in his side.

As for Minions/Henchmen, It might be a good idea to have some basic "Gentleman's Minions" food groups, rather than introducing new antagonists each time and saying "Oh, by the way, they're working for The Gentleman". Instead the PC's recognize some signs (Hrmm, band of thuggish mercenaries led by a guy with spikes all over his amour) and reach conclusions (The Gentleman is behind this).


Lets see, potential Minion Ideas
The Attorney: Needs a better name. Basically, this guy shows up and uses knowledge of local laws, bribery, and political wheeling and dealing to get local governments to do what The Gentleman needs done. A noncombatant, he's more likely to turn the Law against the PC's than anything. He generally gets things done legally (Like, say, simply buying a magical item The Gentleman is after), meaning the PC's need to convince the other party not to go through with the deal, rather than simply providing another group of bad guys for the PC's to slash through.

eh, my imagination's broke right now, I'll try to come up with some more later.


Hm, I might name that enemy Bartleby, or perhaps just The Scrivener. :P But I like the non-traditional enemies. Instead of having to cut through goblins, PCs must cut through red tape!

No, but really, the whole "I'm sorry, but the town guard arrests you because you have improper passports" or "You appear to have imported foreign weapons with intent to sell without the proper paperwork..." type thing amuses me.

EDIT: Re: Legions of Mooks - Y'think just a simple symbol or something on their armor would be enough to just signify them as working for The Gentleman, or is that too easy?

BRC
2010-11-15, 09:49 PM
Hm, I might name that enemy Bartleby, or perhaps just The Scrivener. :P But I like the non-traditional enemies. Instead of having to cut through goblins, PCs must cut through red tape!

No, but really, the whole "I'm sorry, but the town guard arrests you because you have improper passports" or "You appear to have imported foreign weapons with intent to sell without the proper paperwork..." type thing amuses me.

EDIT: Re: Legions of Mooks - Y'think just a simple symbol or something on their armor would be enough to just signify them as working for The Gentleman, or is that too easy?
You could call him Bartleby, but I'd prefer you didn't (Sorry, couldn't resist). And you wouldn't use him too much, just occasionally, maybe as a Nuisance. Spike and his thugs are running around causing trouble, the PC's are trying to stop them, but Bartleby keeps throwing things in there way.

You could use a simple badge, but then you have the same problem. It turns from "The PC's versus The Gentleman" to "A string of unconnected adventures with the DM saying "Oh, by the way, the Gentleman was involved".
You can use a couple repeating characters (Spike, the Fire/Ice twins, Bartleby), showing up with a different gang of minions each time, but they need to be a connecting thread.

The question you need to answer is, does The Gentleman have a standing force of lackeys and minions, or does he just acquire them on a case-by-case basis, and put a trusted lieutenant in charge of the operation, while the Minions don't know who they're working for.

Other Ideas:

The Regiment: If he does have a standing force of minions, this might be them. Devils under the command of The Colonel, The Regiment is disciplined and orderly. However, their emblem is recognizable and they tend to stand out (Being Devils and all). Normally it's much easier to just hire some thugs when The Gentleman needs muscle.

The Eye, The Mouth, and the Hand: Three Thieves the Gentleman uses to acquire objects from secure locations The Eye is a Beguiler, who uses magic to assist in his party's efforts. The Mouth is a Bard with lots of ranks in Bluff, Disguise, and Diplomacy, who infiltrates locations in disguise. The Hand is Rogue, who sneaks into places with old fashioned stealth and cunning.

Mister Live and Mister Card: A pair of Lycanthropes, essentially This (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThoseTwoBadGuys). Mister Live is a Wererat with a mean streak, he forms the brains of the operation. Mister Card is a Wearbear (Ignore the alignment thing), who serves as the Muscle. give them whatever class levels you see fit.

Deth Muncher
2010-11-15, 11:31 PM
You could call him Bartleby, but I'd prefer you didn't (Sorry, couldn't resist). And you wouldn't use him too much, just occasionally, maybe as a Nuisance. Spike and his thugs are running around causing trouble, the PC's are trying to stop them, but Bartleby keeps throwing things in there way.

You could use a simple badge, but then you have the same problem. It turns from "The PC's versus The Gentleman" to "A string of unconnected adventures with the DM saying "Oh, by the way, the Gentleman was involved".
You can use a couple repeating characters (Spike, the Fire/Ice twins, Bartleby), showing up with a different gang of minions each time, but they need to be a connecting thread.

The question you need to answer is, does The Gentleman have a standing force of lackeys and minions, or does he just acquire them on a case-by-case basis, and put a trusted lieutenant in charge of the operation, while the Minions don't know who they're working for.

Other Ideas:

The Regiment: If he does have a standing force of minions, this might be them. Devils under the command of The Colonel, The Regiment is disciplined and orderly. However, their emblem is recognizable and they tend to stand out (Being Devils and all). Normally it's much easier to just hire some thugs when The Gentleman needs muscle.

The Eye, The Mouth, and the Hand: Three Thieves the Gentleman uses to acquire objects from secure locations The Eye is a Beguiler, who uses magic to assist in his party's efforts. The Mouth is a Bard with lots of ranks in Bluff, Disguise, and Diplomacy, who infiltrates locations in disguise. The Hand is Rogue, who sneaks into places with old fashioned stealth and cunning.

Mister Live and Mister Card: A pair of Lycanthropes, essentially This (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThoseTwoBadGuys). Mister Live is a Wererat with a mean streak, he forms the brains of the operation. Mister Card is a Wearbear (Ignore the alignment thing), who serves as the Muscle. give them whatever class levels you see fit.

I enjoy that you get my references. :D We'z gun be frands.

Anyway, re: having a standing army - I don't really think he should have a standing force, per se, but rather just have a lot of people who owe him favors - like any adventurer, he helped out a lot of people on his rise to power, and as such there are some folks in his debt who might have access to Elite Mooks. Likely, he'll just hire from the local Henchmen's Union.

Re: Relations with his helpers - His lieutenants (which are Frio and Fuego, and Spike) are the sons of his former adventuring pals - who, after they met unfortunate ends (as evil adventuring parties often do), were cared for by The Gentleman, such that he is, and they've grown to trust him, and are unshakably loyal to him. Those three are generally in command of any large squads of mooks, and are quite often not on the same plane as each other, often operating under different orders, looking for different items. While The General has access to Devils, The Gentleman is wary to invoke that favor - whatever he did for the General, asking for the Legions of Hell to be his footsoliders seems to be a bit of a stretch on their friendship. Bartleby will likely be someone he's come in contact with and pays off so that he'll be on his side and can sic the law down on people who oppose him (The Gentleman).

BRC
2010-11-15, 11:55 PM
I enjoy that you get my references. :D We'z gun be frands.

And they say you don't learn anything useful in college.


Anyway, re: having a standing army - I don't really think he should have a standing force, per se, but rather just have a lot of people who owe him favors - like any adventurer, he helped out a lot of people on his rise to power, and as such there are some folks in his debt who might have access to Elite Mooks. Likely, he'll just hire from the local Henchmen's Union.

The point is that The Gentleman dosn't really have permanent minions beyond a few servants (Charlie, the Groundskeeper, Djeeves) and Trusted Lieutenants (Spike, Frio, Fuego). He instead calls in favors or just spreads money around to acquire mooks, or has a couple go-to contractors he hires for special jobs (Bartleby, or maybe some of the people I suggested above), but he dosn't have a Legion of Doom or anything.


Re: Relations with his helpers - His lieutenants (which are Frio and Fuego, and Spike) are the sons of his former adventuring pals - who, after they met unfortunate ends (as evil adventuring parties often do), were cared for by The Gentleman, such that he is, and they've grown to trust him, and are unshakably loyal to him. Those three are generally in command of any large squads of mooks, and are quite often not on the same plane as each other, often operating under different orders, looking for different items. While The General has access to Devils, The Gentleman is wary to invoke that favor - whatever he did for the General, asking for the Legions of Hell to be his footsoliders seems to be a bit of a stretch on their friendship. Bartleby will likely be someone he's come in contact with and pays off so that he'll be on his side and can sic the law down on people who oppose him (The Gentleman).
I'd imagined The Colonel (Or General as he's become apparently) as having been assigned by his superiors to stay with The Gentleman, as a sort of Ambassador. He certainly gets along with The Gentleman, but his real purpose is to say that, should The Gentleman need any help of a devilish nature, well, he only has to ask. He probably deals with Devils alot (buying information or items from them, for example), but dislikes employing them directly, largely because for less money and effort you can get some idiot mortals to do the same job, in territory they're familiar with, without standing out the way a squadron of bearded devils do.


I kind of like the idea of all sorts of unsavory evil types owing him a favor. I could imagine The Gentleman as going around patronizing such organizations, the odd necromancy cult here, an amoral mercenary company there, he gives them some start up cash, introduces them to a few people, Tells them where to bury the bodies (Latter) or where the bodies are buried (Former), all for the simple understanding that, some day, he may, or may not, have need of their services. Maybe he sees a little bit of himself in those ambitious startups, or maybe he just recognizes the benefit of being able to get a small army on pretty much any plane he chooses just by writing a few letters to the right people.

Hrmm, that could serve as a Calling Card. On a given plane, maybe there is a large thieves guild or mercenary company that The Gentleman is behind, so he tends to use them for his hired muscle. They arn't part of The Gentleman's army, they're part of the Blue Steel Mercenary Company, who just happen to have The Gentleman as a repeat client. So when the PC's see Blue Steel mercs running around, they can think "Yeah, The Gentleman is probably behind this somehow".

Deth Muncher
2010-11-16, 12:16 AM
And they say you don't learn anything useful in college.

The point is that The Gentleman dosn't really have permanent minions beyond a few servants (Charlie, the Groundskeeper, Djeeves) and Trusted Lieutenants (Spike, Frio, Fuego). He instead calls in favors or just spreads money around to acquire mooks, or has a couple go-to contractors he hires for special jobs (Bartleby, or maybe some of the people I suggested above), but he dosn't have a Legion of Doom or anything.

I'd imagined The Colonel (Or General as he's become apparently) as having been assigned by his superiors to stay with The Gentleman, as a sort of Ambassador. He certainly gets along with The Gentleman, but his real purpose is to say that, should The Gentleman need any help of a devilish nature, well, he only has to ask. He probably deals with Devils alot (buying information or items from them, for example), but dislikes employing them directly, largely because for less money and effort you can get some idiot mortals to do the same job, in territory they're familiar with, without standing out the way a squadron of bearded devils do.


I kind of like the idea of all sorts of unsavory evil types owing him a favor. I could imagine The Gentleman as going around patronizing such organizations, the odd necromancy cult here, an amoral mercenary company there, he gives them some start up cash, introduces them to a few people, Tells them where to bury the bodies (Latter) or where the bodies are buried (Former), all for the simple understanding that, some day, he may, or may not, have need of their services. Maybe he sees a little bit of himself in those ambitious startups, or maybe he just recognizes the benefit of being able to get a small army on pretty much any plane he chooses just by writing a few letters to the right people.

Hrmm, that could serve as a Calling Card. On a given plane, maybe there is a large thieves guild or mercenary company that The Gentleman is behind, so he tends to use them for his hired muscle. They arn't part of The Gentleman's army, they're part of the Blue Steel Mercenary Company, who just happen to have The Gentleman as a repeat client. So when the PC's see Blue Steel mercs running around, they can think "Yeah, The Gentleman is probably behind this somehow".

O_o I too learned of Bartleby at college...you don't go to the same college as me, do you? That would be scary. I already recently found out Burley is friends with a friend of mine...

Anyway, I digress. (Also, re: General/Colonel - I just kinda forgot which one we were calling him. Herp d'derr.) I'm going to actually have to go and start writing things up, assuming this campaign will ever get off the damn ground.

BRC
2010-11-16, 11:32 AM
O_o I too learned of Bartleby at college...you don't go to the same college as me, do you? That would be scary. I already recently found out Burley is friends with a friend of mine...

Anyway, I digress. (Also, re: General/Colonel - I just kinda forgot which one we were calling him. Herp d'derr.) I'm going to actually have to go and start writing things up, assuming this campaign will ever get off the damn ground.
Well, I read it in a Fiction class as part of a big collection of short fiction, so lots of colleges probably read it.

Aanyway, back on topic. Another question you'll need to answer is, how frequently will The Gentleman (or his minions) show up. Is the entire campaign going to be about stopping The Gentleman, or is he going to be more along the lines of a repeat antagonist. The PC's wander around good-doing, and occasionally come into contact with one of The Gentleman's plans.

Deth Muncher
2010-11-16, 07:34 PM
Aanyway, back on topic. Another question you'll need to answer is, how frequently will The Gentleman (or his minions) show up. Is the entire campaign going to be about stopping The Gentleman, or is he going to be more along the lines of a repeat antagonist. The PC's wander around good-doing, and occasionally come into contact with one of The Gentleman's plans.

I kinda feel like it's going to be a little of both. One PC at least has motive to go beat down The Gentleman - see the story I posted earlier. But also, it's not going to be like The Gentleman is going to be behind every petty crime that happens around the PCs. I feel like during the first few levels, the PCs are going to be doing basic stuff - clearing out goblin dens, blahblah. Until they end up stumbling across an Artifact, which is when they'll run into The Gentleman & Co. From there, everyone's aware of everyone's presence, and the fun begins.


EDIT: By the way, I think I'm going to be actually statting up our villains. What class levels go well with Gelugon? I've already stated that The Gentleman will be a Sorceror all the way through (with perhaps a dabbling into Archmage or something), and I think that Fuego/Frio will do the same (are there any elemental PrCs?). Spike will, I think, perhaps just be a Fighter - he's supposed to just be a super-elite mook anyway. (I might make him a vampire, just to see who gets the joke.)

Deth Muncher
2010-12-02, 01:48 PM
Hey, so. Today's the first real campaign day. I think I'm going to be using The Gentleman's hunting plot to get things shaking - but my question is, what enemies are big enough to still look menacing and pose a threat to a town, but a group of five adventurers still pose enough of a threat to take one down?

Also, on that note, two things have happened. One: I've come up with another buddy for the Gentleman: a blue, just named Blue. (Blues are psychic goblins, if you didn't know.) This comes from mini-one shots I ran with one of the guys before this campaign got going, because we were bored and he wanted to know about the game we'd be playing. He's sneaky, conniving, and has psychic powers. Everything a goblin could hope for.

The other thing is that the campaign will have another player - most likely, one of those crazy dragon-y elf things from Dragon Magic, probably also a Druid - which is okay, since the Druid that's in the party will be a big bag of fail anyway.

So, party makeup, for those keeping track:
Druid
Druid
Sneaky Beguiler/Roguey thing
Dread Necromancer
Samurai

I feel this will be a fairly Chaotic group. Plus, since there's the Samurai, the guys don't necessarily have to be GOOD, just not dishonorable about their actions.

EDIT: For hunting, I'm thinking Otyughs. :P
EDITEDIT: Or trolls, really. Since that was my first thought.

BRC
2010-12-02, 02:36 PM
Would Blue be a henchman (Like Spike or Bartleby), a Servant (like Djeeves or the Gardener), or a Friend (like The Colonel, or the other distinguished houseguests whose names I can't remember)?

As for Monsters, what level are the PC's starting at. A quick use of the D20srd Monster filter brings up some other CR 4's (The same as an Otyguh)

Dire Boars can be very dangerous, and Boars are traditional game for a Hunt anyway.
Rhinocerous and Tigers are both CR as well, and like Boars they are considered Big Game. However, they may be a little too "normal" for this.
Minotaur's are big, dangerous, and somewhat intelligent, they could work instead of Trolls.

Giant Beetles
Ankhegs. You hunt them by hitting the ground, drawing them to the surface when they detect the tremors.

Owlbears could work well. They're very violent, and while one of them is within the capabilities of your average town guard, if The Gentleman brought a large number to an area, repeated attacks would wear down the militia.

Edit: As for the Colonel. He's already CR13, you could just advance him by HD. If you want to give him class levels, Marshal could work. The class peters out after a few levels,but you wouldn't need to give him too many levels anyway. It would mean he'd need minions to benefit from his auras.
You could re fluff his Spear as a Saber, if you want to make him more Flashman-esque.

Edit II: As for Frio and Fuego, look into Gensai from Comp Arcane. They're elemental-themed spellcasters.
For Spike, maybe make him a Rogue/Fighter going into the Streetfighter from Complete Adventurer.
Edit III: Bartleby is going to have a field day with that Samurai and whatever code of Honor he follows.
Edit IV (I need to stop adding things to this post): Speaking of Bartleby, if the party is largely Chaotic, he might be less effective, since he relies on the PC's being lawful enough to deal with the red tape he throws at them, rather than just killing him.
Of course, if they DO kill him, you could have the following scene ensue at some point.
A blood red circle appears on the ground, within it is complex pattern made by a series of infernal runes. What sounds like the scream of a thousand souls in agony rips through the air as a pillar of hellfire bursts up from the circle. From the column of fire steps a fearsome figure, a skeleton, seemingly made from rusted iron, through it's empty sockets and within it's ribcage you see countless gears spinning away, long sharp fingers end in vicious points and it looks at you with a gaze of calculating malevolence.
Suddenly, the hellfire dies down, leaving a cloud of choking smoke. The Skeleton twists it's cruel hands, the smoke swirls around it, condensing into a plain, yet well made dark suit and black leather case. The Skeleton opens it's mouth and speaks with a familiar voice.
"Hello, my name is Bartleby, we have met several times before. Our last meeting ended with your killing me, I would prefer it if you would attempt to do so again. Now, let us begin, we have several points of business to discuss, starting with my murder."

Seerow
2010-12-02, 02:45 PM
I want to comment this thread has been very interesting to read, I love where you're going with your ideas.

Just please don't make spike a generic high level fighter. At least make him a Warblade, or give him some prestige class or y'know something to make him a bit more threatening and interesting.

Deth Muncher
2010-12-02, 05:54 PM
Would Blue be a henchman (Like Spike or Bartleby), a Servant (like Djeeves or the Gardener), or a Friend (like The Colonel, or the other distinguished houseguests whose names I can't remember)?

As for Monsters, what level are the PC's starting at. A quick use of the D20srd Monster filter brings up some other CR 4's (The same as an Otyguh)

Dire Boars can be very dangerous, and Boars are traditional game for a Hunt anyway.
Rhinocerous and Tigers are both CR as well, and like Boars they are considered Big Game. However, they may be a little too "normal" for this.
Minotaur's are big, dangerous, and somewhat intelligent, they could work instead of Trolls.

Giant Beetles
Ankhegs. You hunt them by hitting the ground, drawing them to the surface when they detect the tremors.

Owlbears could work well. They're very violent, and while one of them is within the capabilities of your average town guard, if The Gentleman brought a large number to an area, repeated attacks would wear down the militia.

Edit: As for the Colonel. He's already CR13, you could just advance him by HD. If you want to give him class levels, Marshal could work. The class peters out after a few levels,but you wouldn't need to give him too many levels anyway. It would mean he'd need minions to benefit from his auras.
You could re fluff his Spear as a Saber, if you want to make him more Flashman-esque.

Edit II: As for Frio and Fuego, look into Gensai from Comp Arcane. They're elemental-themed spellcasters.
For Spike, maybe make him a Rogue/Fighter going into the Streetfighter from Complete Adventurer.
Edit III: Bartleby is going to have a field day with that Samurai and whatever code of Honor he follows.
Edit IV (I need to stop adding things to this post): Speaking of Bartleby, if the party is largely Chaotic, he might be less effective, since he relies on the PC's being lawful enough to deal with the red tape he throws at them, rather than just killing him.
Of course, if they DO kill him, you could have the following scene ensue at some point.
A blood red circle appears on the ground, within it is complex pattern made by a series of infernal runes. What sounds like the scream of a thousand souls in agony rips through the air as a pillar of hellfire bursts up from the circle. From the column of fire steps a fearsome figure, a skeleton, seemingly made from rusted iron, through it's empty sockets and within it's ribcage you see countless gears spinning away, long sharp fingers end in vicious points and it looks at you with a gaze of calculating malevolence.
Suddenly, the hellfire dies down, leaving a cloud of choking smoke. The Skeleton twists it's cruel hands, the smoke swirls around it, condensing into a plain, yet well made dark suit and black leather case. The Skeleton opens it's mouth and speaks with a familiar voice.
"Hello, my name is Bartleby, we have met several times before. Our last meeting ended with your killing me, I would prefer it if you would attempt to do so again. Now, let us begin, we have several points of business to discuss, starting with my murder."

Re: Blue - I think he's more going to look at Blue as an Apprentice, since he's much like The Gentleman at low levels - he's crafty and cunning and well on his way to evil (he had previously mindcontrolled an Orc to do his bidding and was, effectively, leading a tribe), but is a pretty low level.

Re:Monsters - Minotaurs could be fun, especially if I give them the ridiculohammer they have in...MM3, I think. Had thought about Giant Beetles and Ankhegs, since they'd pretty well work. Maybe some oozes or something. Owlbears fit the amusingness of "A Caster Did It" - The Gentleman could just be like "Oh yeah, I whipped these up and 'ported theme here en masse so I could have more of a hunt."

Re: Minions - Sounds good for the Colonel. Will look into the Gensai. I always liked the Streetfighter PrC, so Spike can be that. You're right about Bartleby though...hm. The Iron Skeleton is great though.

EDIT: Also, the party is ECL3.

EDIT2: Also, I can't find Gensai in CArc.

BRC
2010-12-02, 06:40 PM
When asked why he created Owlbears, the Gentleman should respond "I lost a bet".
Blue as an Apprentice Gentleman could work. It also gives you a way to have the Gentleman be present, and opposing the PC's, without the PC's going up against a 20th level sorcerer. He tests his apprentice by having him go up against the PC's while the gentleman leans against a wall, sips some lemonade and occasionally shouts advice. If the PC's beat Blue, he throws a Mass Hold Person before they can deliver the final blow and steps in to teleport Blue and himself away.

Also, you can't find Gensai because I mixed up the name. Gensai are half-elementals from some setting or another. Wu Jen are the elemental-themed spell casters from Comp Arc.
Edit: Bartleby could also come back as a ghost or something, I just like the mental image of the Iron Skeleton calmly informing the PC's which local regulations they are in violation of.

Deth Muncher
2010-12-08, 02:15 AM
I totally am going to go with the "I lost a bet" line. The party ended up facing the Otyughs and now trolls have been unleashed on the countryside for them to kill, but that'll be up in the campaign journal soon enough for you to read about.

I also like the "Okay, you beat him, but you're not going to kill him" idea with The Gentleman/Blue. It works well enough - but if I use it more than once or so, the PCs will just go for The Gentleman instead - which wouldn't work very well at all.

Wu Jen are totally something I'll look into - I've liked them ever since I saw them in Oriental Adventures.

And no, it has been written that Bartleby shall be a horrible Iron Skeleton from Hell when he dies. If he gets asked why he came back just to harass the party, he will, of course, respond that he would prefer not to talk about it.

Now, to new business:Is there any way, pre-epic, for a Sorceror (with prestige classes, but probably not any other base classes) to get some spells as at-will Spell Like Abilities? I vaguely remember certain prestige classes maybe granted you one in exchange for keeping that slot permanently used, but I don't remember exactly. I know it'd be easy enough to just say "Oh, The Gentleman is an NPC, so of course he has as many spell slots as I want him to for whatever he needs," but I'd prefer to actually give him a character sheet - I WANT him to be a real character, with a defined list of abilities.

Godskook
2010-12-08, 02:33 AM
I think one of the important things about BBEGs is to have their plans be *far* reaching. As an example, one of the big-bad-true-neutral-guys in my campaign isn't going to directly interact with the party for another 6-10 levels, and yet they currently think of him as something of their benefactor.

Deth Muncher
2010-12-08, 02:38 AM
I think one of the important things about BBEGs is to have their plans be *far* reaching. As an example, one of the big-bad-true-neutral-guys in my campaign isn't going to directly interact with the party for another 6-10 levels, and yet they currently think of him as something of their benefactor.

Somewhat amusingly, that's what The Gentleman is right now - in a sick way. Again, you'll get the full details when I update my campaign journal - likely in a week or so, since I need to be done with exams and papers - but basically he summoned the Otyughs, which the PCs trounced (gogo Team Druid! Entangle basically let the party snipe them to death) and he shows up after and says "Hey, you totally loved fighting them, right? Isn't it great watching them wreak havoc? Oh, and by the way, since you did so well, there's a bunch of trolls in the woods now. Have fun!" To which the PCs respond "Uh, dude, we're in no way equipped to fight trolls." The Gentleman then points them in the direction of a temple he was going to loot, but decided he didn't need to - and said temple was chock-full of troll-smashing goodies.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-12-08, 02:58 AM
Now, to new business:Is there any way, pre-epic, for a Sorceror (with prestige classes, but probably not any other base classes) to get some spells as at-will Spell Like Abilities? I vaguely remember certain prestige classes maybe granted you one in exchange for keeping that slot permanently used, but I don't remember exactly. I know it'd be easy enough to just say "Oh, The Gentleman is an NPC, so of course he has as many spell slots as I want him to for whatever he needs," but I'd prefer to actually give him a character sheet - I WANT him to be a real character, with a defined list of abilities.

Innate Spell, CArc. Drop a level X+8 slot to gain a level X slot as an at-will SLA. Not worth it in the slightest unless you break out the cheddar with Heighten and such, but if you're willing to do that you can get a spell of almost any level at will.

Deth Muncher
2010-12-08, 03:43 AM
Innate Spell, CArc. Drop a level X+8 slot to gain a level X slot as an at-will SLA. Not worth it in the slightest unless you break out the cheddar with Heighten and such, but if you're willing to do that you can get a spell of almost any level at will.

>_>

<_<

But unless I'm misreading that, that means that pre-epic, you can only get 0 and 1st level spells as innate, yes? Unless there's a trick I'm missing.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-12-08, 10:57 AM
>_>

<_<

But unless I'm misreading that, that means that pre-epic, you can only get 0 and 1st level spells as innate, yes? Unless there's a trick I'm missing.

Hence the Heighten shenanigans. There was a thread on the WotC forums a while back about abusing Heighten and Extra Slot to get very high level slots because it gives you one of one level lower than you "can cast." If you want a 5th-level spell at will, Heighten something to 14th (via Divine Metamagic, Metamagic Song, or some other means, plus Earth Spell or other ways to break the 9th-level cap), take Extra Slot to get a 13th level slot, and burn it for Innate Spell. Like I said, it reeks of cheddar, and it's a bit feat-intensive, but it's doable.

true_shinken
2010-12-08, 11:02 AM
Like I said, it reeks of cheddar, and it's a bit feat-intensive, but it's doable.
It reeks of mature gruyere, even. ^^

Deth Muncher
2010-12-08, 11:11 AM
Hence the Heighten shenanigans. There was a thread on the WotC forums a while back about abusing Heighten and Extra Slot to get very high level slots because it gives you one of one level lower than you "can cast." If you want a 5th-level spell at will, Heighten something to 14th (via Divine Metamagic, Metamagic Song, or some other means, plus Earth Spell or other ways to break the 9th-level cap), take Extra Slot to get a 13th level slot, and burn it for Innate Spell. Like I said, it reeks of cheddar, and it's a bit feat-intensive, but it's doable.


It reeks of mature gruyere, even. ^^

D'err. Wow. That's a-something. Do metamagics count on Innate Spells? Like, could I take a Quickened Fireball or something ridiculous as the innate spell, or does it outline this in the feat description and I should just go read it?

And also, this is like cheddar with Brie spread on top of it, dipped into a fondue and with Cheez Whiz sprayed on top.

true_shinken
2010-12-08, 11:14 AM
D'err. Wow. That's a-something. Do metamagics count on Innate Spells? Like, could I take a Quickened Fireball or something ridiculous as the innate spell, or does it outline this in the feat description and I should just go read it?

And also, this is like cheddar with Brie spread on top of it, dipped into a fondue and with Cheez Whiz sprayed on top.

I don't think this works by a strict reading of RAW, unless you have a way of keeping that heightened spell there all day long. If the heightened spell is not there anymore, you don't qualify for the Extra Slot feat and you lose it's benefits.

Grelna the Blue
2010-12-08, 12:00 PM
It wasn't the toughest BBEG I've ever created, but one BBEG I made that the party had lots of fun with was seemingly a powerfully built human wizard in his later middle years. The party encountered him in a flying castle above a volcanic caldera. He was really tough to defeat, but after they'd done so they were looting the body, healing, etc. when a duplicate showed up and reengaged them. They killed the double, and the same thing happened again.

Before the fourth showed up, they found the secret room (with a one-way transparent floor) containing the cloned duplicate bodies. They dispatched the bodies, but they realized that a gigantic black pearl on a pedestal had been used as the item that was Magic Jarring the clones, so they cast dispel magic upon it before it could be used on one of them.

It turned out that the pearl was also the lynchpin of the castle's flying ability, so the castle started falling into the lava below. As they hastily exited (dimension dooring, cutting a hole with sword of sharpness and flying, etc), they saw a gigantic red dragon surface from the depths of the caldera, shedding sheets of lava from its scales. It was completely unhurt, as he'd been using his cloned fighter minion as a proxy, while the party was down most of their spells and limited use magic items.

Fun ensued.

That's my idea of how tough to make a BBEG. Anything less isn't B and B enough.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-12-08, 09:12 PM
D'err. Wow. That's a-something. Do metamagics count on Innate Spells? Like, could I take a Quickened Fireball or something ridiculous as the innate spell, or does it outline this in the feat description and I should just go read it?

Reading the description would probably be best.


I don't think this works by a strict reading of RAW, unless you have a way of keeping that heightened spell there all day long. If the heightened spell is not there anymore, you don't qualify for the Extra Slot feat and you lose it's benefits.

Well, just keep that spell prepared at all times, then.

Alternately, you can do it with a spell level ratchet of sorts. You have level X slots; prepare a level X-1 spell with the Heighten Spell, Earth Spell, and Sanctum Spell feats in a level X slot, making it count as a level X+2 spell. Extra Slot thus allows you to pick up a level X+1 slot, as you can cast a spell of level X+2 and X+1 is one lower than that. Now prepare a heightened sanctum level X spell in a level X+1 slot, making it a level X+3 spell, which with Extra Slot gives you a level X+2 spell...you get the idea. You need to be in your sanctum to do this, but you just need to give it up the one time for Innate Spell, so after you get Innate Spell you can leave normally. Alternately, an acorn of far travel keyed to your sanctum would work as well.

Deth Muncher
2010-12-09, 02:14 PM
Hm. So it's basically a particular reading of RAW that lets it happen. I'm kind of okay with this - it's not a PC, so while on the one hand I do want The Gentleman to be legal, it's just that I have a particular reading of what legal is. :P Not to mention, I don't actually see any of the players wanting to take Innate Spell - though if they did, I'd rule the same for them.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-12-09, 03:11 PM
Hm. So it's basically a particular reading of RAW that lets it happen. I'm kind of okay with this - it's not a PC, so while on the one hand I do want The Gentleman to be legal, it's just that I have a particular reading of what legal is. :P Not to mention, I don't actually see any of the players wanting to take Innate Spell - though if they did, I'd rule the same for them.

Basically. It's not really even "a particular reading of RAW"--you have to be able to give up a level X+8 slot, this gives you a level X+8 slot, bada-bing bada-boom, Innate Spell. Though I tend to see crazier things happen in my games, so I might be a bit biased.

Deth Muncher
2010-12-13, 02:19 AM
Basically. It's not really even "a particular reading of RAW"--you have to be able to give up a level X+8 slot, this gives you a level X+8 slot, bada-bing bada-boom, Innate Spell. Though I tend to see crazier things happen in my games, so I might be a bit biased.

I want to play in your campaigns.

Speaking of ridiculosity - what kinds of Artifacts are fun for players/BBEGs to get? I'm thinking the Regalia of X Alignment, the Orbs of Dragonkind, etc. At the very least, the ones that either grant extra abilities or let you control and/or summon other creatures but I'm sure I'm missing some fun ones. I'm thinking of about thirty Artifiacts total, with each set of Artifacts counting as 1 for these purposes.

These can and should include campaign specific Artifacts - I plan on having the PCs go through multiple campaign settings in search for these.

true_shinken
2010-12-13, 11:11 AM
Speaking of ridiculosity - what kinds of Artifacts are fun for players/BBEGs to get?
In my current game, I have the BBEG with a refluffed Sword of Kas.
In my next game, I plan to have the Rod of Seven Parts be a major part of stuff and a plot driver.

Deth Muncher
2010-12-13, 12:02 PM
In my next game, I plan to have the Rod of Seven Parts be a major part of stuff and a plot driver.

See, I was thinking about ONLY including multipart artifacts like the Rod of Seven Parts, the Orbs of Dragonkind (which I know aren't TECHNICALLY multipart but once you use one, all dragons hate you, so you may as well get all of them), the Regalia of X...but I don't know if my players would like just getting bits and pieces of things. Plus, artifacts which are one piece may not have the "resonance bonus" as I like to call it (the thing where the more parts of a set you have the stronger they all become) but they're always fun to get and/or destroy. (I think.)

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-12-13, 12:53 PM
I want to play in your campaigns.

Well, I do have some openings.... :smallbiggrin:


Speaking of ridiculosity - what kinds of Artifacts are fun for players/BBEGs to get? I'm thinking the Regalia of X Alignment, the Orbs of Dragonkind, etc. At the very least, the ones that either grant extra abilities or let you control and/or summon other creatures but I'm sure I'm missing some fun ones. I'm thinking of about thirty Artifiacts total, with each set of Artifacts counting as 1 for these purposes.

These can and should include campaign specific Artifacts - I plan on having the PCs go through multiple campaign settings in search for these.

My favorite would have to be Heward's Mystical Organ. Play a tune, get a benefit, play another one, weird stuff happens. Turn that session's background music into something actually beneficial...sometimes... :smallamused:

Grelna the Blue
2010-12-13, 03:06 PM
I want to play in your campaigns.

Speaking of ridiculosity - what kinds of Artifacts are fun for players/BBEGs to get? I'm thinking the Regalia of X Alignment, the Orbs of Dragonkind, etc. At the very least, the ones that either grant extra abilities or let you control and/or summon other creatures but I'm sure I'm missing some fun ones. I'm thinking of about thirty Artifiacts total, with each set of Artifacts counting as 1 for these purposes.

These can and should include campaign specific Artifacts - I plan on having the PCs go through multiple campaign settings in search for these.

I haven't done a lot of artifacts of the "set" type, but there was that one 2 Ed campaign...they weren't the most original artifacts I ever did but they definitely added something to the campaign.

A very powerful demon had been imprisoned, not by the forces of good but by the forces of evil, within 3 items. Each was nice but unremarkable by itself. Together, they were really ugly:
Gothmog (black, spiky mace): +2 mace, +4 when berserking. You had to make an ego check to not berserk when it was wielded in battle. It could grant Haste 2x/day and Teleport 1x/day. In conjunction with either one of the other two items it became vampiric, granting half the damage dealt to its wielder. With both, it could be used to cast Finger of Death several times per day and drained a level per hit.
Armbands of Demonic Vigor (looked like black demonic faces with glowing eyes you shoved your arms through the mouths of): Gave a Strength of 19 (in 2nd Ed that was fairly nice, remember) but dropped Charisma by 8 (the armbands were huge and you expanded sideways to fit). They prevented natural healing and bit down and damaged wearer a little every time they were put on. The wearer also constantly detected as evil, even if he wasn't. In conjunction with either one of the other items, they granted 22 Strength, and with both they granted 25.
Ebonhorn Armor: +3 full plate (also black and spiky) that gave regeneration while worn. With one of the other items it gave rapid regeneration and with both it would fight on after the wearer was dead or unconscious, as at that point the trapped demon was free to possess his body.

The party found and used the Armbands for a while (unaware that they were a relic), but got rid of them when a better Strength granting item came around. They also found Gothmog, and attempted to dispose of it the cheap and easy way (they hid it). Much later, in the climactic battle of the campaign, they fought the dark saint that had assembled all three together, leading an army of homebrewed evil elves on dragonback. Only with the aid of another relic and a gated Solar did they prevail.However, there was another artifact I was rather proud of in a much later campaign. The party had been convinced to go into the Bonelands to seek out the Ring of Targoz. Targoz was a semi-legendary figure who had lived some 8 centuries previous, but the guy who hired the party to find the ring and bring it back to him knew nothing about it other than that it was supposedly Targoz' final project and greatest triumph. The party fought through the Bonelands to get to their destination, a ruined city inhabited by a bunch of spellcasting lamias and advanced ghouls, only to discover that the Ring of Targoz was extremely non-portable, not a ring for a hand at all. It was essentially the Guardian of Forever (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_City_on_the_Edge_of_Forever) from the classic Star Trek episode, slightly refluffed. Sentient, curious, nonhuman motivation, stupidly powerful. They went back and told their employer they could take him there. When he said yes, the Ring (watching them from a distance) opened a gate to bring them across. As they'd more or less accidentally freed Targoz (he'd gotten stuck halfway through a ritual of ascension), the Ring wasn't available very much longer. He took it with him when he decided to find an alternate reality that better suited him. The Ring did occasionally look in on them after that, but they were confused by the fact that it didn't seem to consider them the primary versions of themselves.

woodenbandman
2010-12-13, 03:35 PM
Alas, here it is (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SympathyForTheDevil).

i repot u huehuehue

fireinakasha
2010-12-13, 04:21 PM
D'err. Wow. That's a-something. Do metamagics count on Innate Spells? Like, could I take a Quickened Fireball or something ridiculous as the innate spell, or does it outline this in the feat description and I should just go read it?

I don't think you can metamagic innate spells, but there is always the monster manual feat Quicken Spell-Like Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#quickenSpellLikeAbility). You could re-purpose that for whatever metamagic you want.

Deth Muncher
2010-12-14, 12:11 AM
Well, I do have some openings.... :smallbiggrin:

My favorite would have to be Heward's Mystical Organ. Play a tune, get a benefit, play another one, weird stuff happens. Turn that session's background music into something actually beneficial...sometimes... :smallamused:

You don't live in Virginia, do you? :P

And are there actually rules for Heward's Mystical Organ? I've heard of it before, but I don't remember rules for it.

Re: Grelna - those are actually some pretty awesome relics. I should just homebrew my own or something, really.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-12-14, 12:25 AM
You don't live in Virginia, do you? :P

I do, actually.


And are there actually rules for Heward's Mystical Organ? I've heard of it before, but I don't remember rules for it.

In prior editions, but not in 3e to my knowledge. I just convert it over for my own games or use the 1e random artifact powers tables.

Rixx
2010-12-14, 05:27 AM
I'd say it's at d-bag levels if the players MUST use metagame knowledge to defeat the villain.

Grelna the Blue
2010-12-14, 01:28 PM
Reading all the way through the thread, I realized that I'd inadvertently posted an example of a BBEG, not the BBEG that is supposed to be the campaign capstone. That's obviously what's under discussion.

Exceria, who is the BBEG in my current campaign, is a recycled "lesser" BBEG from 2 campaigns ago (same world and she wasn't killed then, so why not reuse her 140 years later?). She is an extremely powerful necromancer (epic level) who fits the fairly standard scholarly villain archetype, someone for whom power has always been secondary to forbidden knowledge.

Exceria's current project (as yet unknown to the party) is a little different than the standard BBEG plot. She doesn't wish to ascend to godhood herself. It doesn't sound particularly interesting. No, she wishes to see if she can CREATE a god. The country she inhabits is ravaged by war and goblinoids and will certainly be destroyed without intervention (and no, she's not interested in actually putting her vast power to work personally--that's for sweaty, illbred adventurers). Of course, if creating divinity were even possible, it would require the simultaneous sacrifice of many thousands of human lives, mostly good, but they'd die anyway so surely only a purist could complain.

I did give her one weakness that the party may or may not discover--they haven't shown much sign as yet of being interested in investigations or anything other than "get 'em" tactics (I believe they will realize very soon how very conducive to PC death that is, but I'm not counting on it, either). If Exceria weeps or expresses sorrow, her spellcasting is greatly impacted. Over 140 years ago she cut off all contact with her daughter, another necromancer, after the daughter's morals were "tainted" by some good-aligned adventurers. Exceria then found that she could no longer safely associate with the only person she had ever loved. She had been proudly (if clinically) discussing her first successful dissection of a human soul--fairly bought from a drunk sailor, of course, no need for anything unscrupulous--when she saw the look her daughter was giving her. Forced to choose (as she saw it) between her Art and her daughter, she chose her Art. Her daughter is decades dead, but did leave children and grandchildren behind. I don't yet know whether her weakness will come into play, but it'll be a fun showdown either way.

Deth Muncher
2011-01-05, 06:25 PM
Before we start, I just wanted to say that I know this is a week past the Threadomancy deadline, but I talked to The Glyphstone and he approved it, so all is well.

Okay guys. I statted up the Robe, which is the Major Artifact that The Gentleman is aiming to create. It is located hyarr (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10102496#post10102496).

With this, I have also made a clear plot of what his goals are. The goals are arranged in rough order of importance.

Making the Robe is technically his secondary goal, though it is central to his primary goal. All of the things he loots will be sacrificed to create this (although if he finds any artifacts he really likes, he'll hang onto them). This will enable him to be the most powerful arcane caster in the Multiverse, presumably, and will put him beyond the power of anyone who dares oppose him. So he plans on, anyway.

His tertiary goal is attaining lichdom. This is the second large expenditure of resources he's got, and he devotes only slightly less time to attaining this goal than he does to creating The Robe. Although he plans on attaining lichdom around the same time as getting the Robe finished, the Robe takes a significant amount more effort to create than the phylactery and such.

His...er, fourthiary goal is stopping anyone from stopping him on his rise to power. This puts him on an interesting relationship with the PCs - currently, he's almost acting as a questgiver, throwing monsters at the PCs and telling them where to go loot for cool things. This will likely continue until he perceives them as a threat, which is when he will start actively throwing minions/assassins/devils (which he will pay The Colonel for, of course) at them. This will include times in which they interfere in the attainment of artifacts - he needs as many artifacts to sacrifice as possible, so the PCs getting them means they're slowing the creation of the Robe, which is not a good place to be in. Technically, this is a subset of all three primary goals, but y'know.

So what is his primary goal? To live without being bothered. Or rather, to be able to live the way he wants to live, forever. He doesn't want to have to wait until he dies to get his perfect existence (though given the amount of Evil acts he'll be committing, he most assuredly wouldn't be getting a perfect existence anyway), he wants it while he's a live. He wants to enjoy the arts. He wants to enjoy the finest foods with his close friends. Occasionally, he wants to enjoy villagers being devoured by carnivorous plants. But he doesn't want to pay for it, and he doesn't want people he doesn't like cramping his style - contrary to popular belief, people don't really like being fed to carnivorous plants, nor do the local adventuring guilds like it when you steal priceless works of art or major magical items which are the cruxes to their society just because you think it'd look nice as a centerpiece for your tea-table. And thus, his quest for omnipotence and immortality began.