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View Full Version : How much would this idea nerf casters? (3.5)



Ajadea
2010-11-04, 01:03 PM
TO Wizards are effective gods at high levels. Even a practical wizard can do almost everything better than a fighter, or a warblade, or a whatever not-Tier-1 class can do.

My idea was to make melee-as-tank roles more valuable and stop a the rampant imbalance between the strength in schools.

-All 1st level spells take a full-round action to cast.
-All spells of 2nd level and above take X-1 rounds to cast, where X is the level of the spell. Suddenly, people actually have a chance to interrupt casters.
-A wizard starts with knowledge of Int modifier number of schools, and can spend feats to gain access to more of them. A specialist wizard must have at least 14 Int and loses 1 school known, a focused specialist wizard must have 16 Int and loses 2 schools known as well as your familiar, showing that you've given up most other research to specialize in your chosen school. Reasoning:
Basically trying to drag wizards down to wherever sorcerers stand. Sorcerers have a very limited spell selection, but can cherry pick at will. Wizards can learn a lot more spells, but must spend precious feats or else be constricted to a limited number of schools, and if they want to match a sorcerer in spell output by becoming a focused specialist, they'll have 3 schools at absolute best (18 Int, +2 racial). Spell output vs. spells known Even the best 1st level generalist will only have 5 schools known, but they'll know 8 1st level spells, as opposed to the meager two 1st level spells a sorcerer gets.
-Orb spells and all Conjuration(teleportation) spells go to Evocation, nerfing one of the two big problem school and making it so that Evocation is worth something. Evoker-specialization is hopefully becoming more viable.
-Polymorph is gone, use the Giant's fixes for the school.
-All the Conjuration (healing) spells are moved to the new sub-school Necromancy (healing). It's something that always bugged me.


Druids and clerics are harder to deal with.

Marnath
2010-11-04, 01:05 PM
You might as well just say "I'm banning casters."

jiriku
2010-11-04, 01:08 PM
All 1st level spells take a full-round action to cast.
-All spells of 2nd level and above take X-1 rounds to cast, where X is the level of the spell. Suddenly, people actually have a chance to interrupt casters.

Will do little. The problem isn't so much that casters can cast high-level spells quickly, but rather that they can cast them at all. Clever players will use metamagically augmented 1st-level spells in combat and other spells outside of combat where there's no time crunch. Less clever players will just stop playing casters.


-A wizard starts with knowledge of Int modifier number of schools, and can spend feats to gain access to more of them. A specialist wizard must have at least 14 Int and loses 1 school known, a focused specialist wizard must have 16 Int and loses 2 schools known as well as your familiar, showing that you've given up most other research to specialize in your chosen school.

The Int requirement is meaningless, but the limit on schools known will have a modest impact. A hard limit on maximum number of spells that can be known at each level would also help. I'd say 10 + Int bonus would be a good place to start.


-Orb spells and all Conjuration(teleportation) spells go to Evocation, nerfing one of the two big problem school and making it so that Evocation is worth something. Evoker-specialization is hopefully becoming more viable.

A good idea and one that improves balance between schools, although it won't do anything to improve balance between casters and mundanes.


-Polymorph is gone, use the Giant's fixes for the school.

Also a good idea, although many other spells need to be modified as well.


-All the Conjuration (healing) spells are moved to the new sub-school Necromancy (healing). It's something that always bugged me.

No impact.

Kaww
2010-11-04, 01:08 PM
You might as well just say "I'm banning casters."

+1 here...

Susano-wo
2010-11-04, 01:09 PM
You might as well just say "I'm banning casters."

Maybe with that many rounds. Honestly, I think you'd be better to say that all non Direct Damage/Buff spells take 1rnd to cast, increase that more for more powerfull spells, look at increasing the cast time for some Damage/Buff spells if they have too powerful of a buff/side effect, and decreasing casting time for some spells taht don't need it (it doesn't make sense for featherfall to take a rnd to cast, for instance

not nearly as elegant, but much more playable (3rnds for cast, say fireball?) 4rnds for the ORbs? :smalleek:that's a bit steep:smallsmile:

also, I like a lot of the ideas, even the one's just for more for making more sense or making schools more balanced with each other.
Isn't this really Homebrew, though? or is it not enough of a mechaical fiddling to count?

Duke of URL
2010-11-04, 01:12 PM
There was a similar suggestion in Homebrew not that long ago. My critique remains the same -- this nerfs casters, sure, but it also nerfs players. It's not much fun when your 5th round's action is a row is "still charging up my spell".

Something slightly more sane would be just a simple increase of one or two time steps for (most) spells:

Immediate -> Immediate (not on your turn), Move (on your turn)
Swift -> Move
Move -> Standard
Standard -> 1 round
Full -> 1 round
1+ round -> no change

TheDarkDM
2010-11-04, 01:12 PM
So, in effect, the fairly average fireball is suddenly 2 rounds of work? And by extension, something like Horrid Wilting is now 7 rounds of combat? At high level play, this "fix" in particular removes the Wizard from being at all meaningful, because no properly designed combat is lasting more than 5. As for the other "fixes", limiting schools and making them be bought with precious feats removes all the versatility Wizards enjoy without any subsequent benefit, and makes specializing a foolish choice. I can understand the desire to re-class the orbs, but all that does is make them another less impressive Evocation spell without addressing the weaknesses of the school, instead simply punishing Conjuration. Moving healing to Necromancy has no effective bearing on relative power, seeing as Wizards don't get divine spells anyway.

In short, no one would play a Wizard with these "fixes" in place, and no wizard could last against any sort of melee class, so crippled are they.

Susano-wo
2010-11-04, 01:19 PM
limiting schools removes some of the versatility of wizards. But all of it? comeone. would you really not play a wizard if you had to choose between, say 5(lets asume divination is thrown in like for specialists) schools? And you would never limit yourself to 3 for extrra spells a day?
And RE wizards' precious feats. They need literally 0 feats to do, say, Polymorph, or Scy and Die, etc. To be sure, there are lots of feats that they can use to make themselves nastier, but they can do just fine taking skill focus in all their feat slots.

(and here I'm talking about that fix by itself, not with the others)

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-04, 01:20 PM
-All 1st level spells take a full-round action to cast.
-All spells of 2nd level and above take X-1 rounds to cast, where X is the level of the spell. Suddenly, people actually have a chance to interrupt casters.
-A wizard starts with knowledge of Int modifier number of schools, and can spend feats to gain access to more of them. A specialist wizard must have at least 14 Int and loses 1 school known, a focused specialist wizard must have 16 Int and loses 2 schools known as well as your familiar, showing that you've given up most other research to specialize in your chosen school. -Orb spells and all Conjuration(teleportation) spells go to Evocation, nerfing one of the two big problem school and making it so that Evocation is worth something. Evoker-specialization is hopefully becoming more viable.
-Polymorph is gone, use the Giant's fixes for the school.
-All the Conjuration (healing) spells are moved to the new sub-school Necromancy (healing). It's something that always bugged me.


Not a fan of healing moving to necromancy, maby abjuration or somthing?

Teleportation makes the most sense in conjuration so i don't like that move either

Like the orb move though!

8 rounds is longer than any combat should last so you removed 9th level spells from combat. but was that ever the problem there? Plus you further nerfed low level casting which it didn't need.

How would you handle quicken spell now? since it grants you like 4 free rounds of combat or somthing like that.

Overall decent concept but could use some tweaking.

TheDarkDM
2010-11-04, 01:28 PM
limiting schools removes some of the versatility of wizards. But all of it? comeone. would you really not play a wizard if you had to choose between, say 5(lets asume divination is thrown in like for specialists) schools? And you would never limit yourself to 3 for extrra spells a day?
And RE wizards' precious feats. They need literally 0 feats to do, say, Polymorph, or Scy and Die, etc. To be sure, there are lots of feats that they can use to make themselves nastier, but they can do just fine taking skill focus in all their feat slots.

(and here I'm talking about that fix by itself, not with the others)

I see your point. However, consider this - with an average intelligence of 16 for non-Grey Elf first level Wizards, that is three schools they have access to without feats, two schools for specialists and one school for focused specialists. Given that polymorph has been nerfed, and scry-and-die requires a multitude of schools, I'd say this does severely limit Wizard versatility. Granted though, saying it robbed them of all versatility was hyperbolic.

Susano-wo
2010-11-04, 01:41 PM
Granted though, saying it robbed them of all versatility was hyperbolic.
As long as ytou realise that you were wrong. And are wrong forever:smallwink::smallwink:

I guess I've just never seen an caster with less than 18[caster stat]. ANd wait, Grey Elf? don't thiy get a +2INT boost? what wizard is going to put only enough points into INT to...I think I see. you are going with the 3d6, drop lowest, getting 14average, pumped to 16. I suppose it depends on whetehr or not you got A: lucky, B: had a group that thought everyone should have at least one really high stat (or likes high stats in general), or C: used PB

SO I guess I would just ad 1 or 2 schools to a low stat point game, which makes you have to choose your schools wisely, for what you want, and makes specialization a choice, but one you have to think about

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-04, 01:48 PM
I guess I've just never seen an caster with less than 18[caster stat].

I'm with you on this one. I'd be more worried about guys with 20+ int than having bad caster stats.

18+2 racial +4 from levels= 24 thats a 7 mod which is a focused scecialist with only 2 missing schools or am i miscounting?

Psyren
2010-11-04, 01:56 PM
Seriously, just ban or alter the troublesome spells. You can even limit sources so you're not combing through a dozen sourcebooks. (Honestly, when people tell me they read Frostburn and Shining South just for the setting information, it has the same ring as reading Playboy for the articles.)

These convoluted fixes just create more complications and balance issues than they solve.

Worlok
2010-11-04, 01:58 PM
-All spells of 2nd level and above take X-1 rounds to cast, where X is the level of the spell. Suddenly, people actually have a chance to interrupt casters.
Perhaps "X - ( (0,5 x Con modifier, rounded down) or 1, whichever is higher)" would be the better choice, seeing how Con governs Concentration. It would represent the more focus-capable wizards actually getting their spells done faster than others. It would still be possible to interrupt casters, any at least modestly intelligent player could see to it that his or her character still has a fighting chance, the higher level spells would still take longer, but not too long and the casters in question would still not be completely helpless, seeing how the Con-based equation implies more hit points on wizards.

Quickened Spells could be handled in that you cast a spell and a number of rounds equal to one half the casting time for the next one later, that same spell is automatically cast again. If the next spell you cast is the same as the one cast before, you effectively cast that spell twice in one round instead. Spell slots are used up as usual for the Quicken Spell Feat.

But that's just an idea dump on my part, the concept as proposed strikes me as mechanically sound, if tweakable. :smallsmile:

Terumitsu
2010-11-04, 01:59 PM
The only thing I agree with is the movement of healing from Conjuration to Necromancy. And I do that already in my games. It just makes sense in the Fluff, really.

TheDarkDM
2010-11-04, 02:01 PM
Well, according to the fix, no new schools are gained for an increasing intelligence, making the only way to acquire new schools feat expenditure. As for a 20 casting stat to start, it all depends on your level of optimization. Sure, a great many of us will play Grey Elf wizards, and hopefully roll an 18 (or buy one). But, if you start with even a 17, a Grey elf only has access to 4 schools. I you have a player who decides to play another race for flavor, that gets bumped down to 3 schools. Depending on PRC requirements, you then either have to forego the old standbys of metamagic/spell focus/spell penetration to gain access to potentially essential schools, or forgo new schools altogether. At that point, I see increasingly little reason to play a Wizard at all rather than a more focused Tier 2 that comes with extra abilities like Dread Necromancer or Beguiler.

Sir Swindle89
2010-11-04, 02:05 PM
At that point, I see increasingly little reason to play a Wizard at all rather than a more focused Tier 2 that comes with extra abilities like Dread Necromancer or Beguiler.

I think that was sorta the point. But i do agree that this fix is a bit harsh.

Ernir
2010-11-04, 02:06 PM
Don't nerf the casters. Nerf the spells.

Ajadea
2010-11-04, 02:07 PM
Ok. Thanks for the feedback. Hm...ok, the spell-idea was stupid as is, but I do want tanking to mean something.

I kind of like the Con-mod idea, but perhaps X-2*Constitution Modifier or 1, whichever's higher, minimum 1 round, so that an 18 Con wizard casts all 2nd level or above spells in 1 round, but people still have a fighting chance to interrupt them before they throw down a time-stop or whatever.

And it would apply to metamagically enhanced spells as if the metamagicked spell was of the higher level, so nix on the 'cast buffed magic missiles endlessly' idea.

Wizards do NOT get bonus schools for increasing their Intelligence later. It's like skill-points, you don't retroactively get more skills when you increase your Intelligence modifier.

TheDarkDM
2010-11-04, 02:08 PM
I think that was sorta the point. But i do agree that this fix is a bit harsh.

Well then the DM should simply get out the banhammer and dispense with class-breaking nerfs.

Nohwl
2010-11-04, 02:17 PM
rapid spell would probably be on every caster.

Eldan
2010-11-04, 02:19 PM
Two problems:

a: it doesn't nerf them much outside of combat: you don't care if your planar binding lasts a few more hours, you won't cast it under pressure anyway. You can still buff.

b: In combat, you say "And now I cast Meteor swarm", then go watch some TV, because your next action will be in an hour. Actually, most likely the combat will be long over by the time you get to cast.

Susano-wo
2010-11-04, 02:22 PM
I think quicken would either be banned, or only allowable on select spells.
I like the con mod factoring into it idea! it allows gish's to be real battle casters, in the sense that they can (tend to) cast their spells quicker than a true wiz, though the true wiz has better magic.

ANd DarkDM: that's why I said I would up it in lower stat games. If everyone has an 18 base state, great, if not, then yeah, it can get pretty restrictive, which would be bad. Less than half schools for a non specialist seems overly harsh, definitely.hmmm,maybe just make it access to div+3 other schools with other schools bought with feats?

Gomar
2010-11-04, 02:31 PM
In 2ndEd, didn't most spells usually take a full round to cast...you started on your turn, and the spell went off when it was your turn again?

it has been a while for me, so forgive me if I'm wrong.

i remember it was possible to interrupt casting...seems like making that possible again would be a pretty good nerf in itself.

DonEsteban
2010-11-04, 02:31 PM
I love the idea. If only for the fact that it good reactions ranging from "it won't change anything" to "it will make casters useless" in the first two answers!

DonEsteban
2010-11-04, 02:35 PM
In 2ndEd, didn't most spells usually take a full round to cast...you started on your turn, and the spell went off when it was your turn again?

it has been a while for me, so forgive me if I'm wrong.

i remember it was possible to interrupt casting...seems like making that possible again would be a pretty good nerf in itself.

Not quite. Initiative was rolled every round, your initiative was (roughly) Ini result + spell level and if you took damage before that time, the spell was lost.

The general idea was really good. I miss it.

jiriku
2010-11-04, 02:39 PM
Ok. Thanks for the feedback. Hm...ok, the spell-idea was stupid as is, but I do want tanking to mean something.

I kind of like the Con-mod idea, but perhaps X-2*Constitution Modifier or 1, whichever's higher, minimum 1 round, so that an 18 Con wizard casts all 2nd level or above spells in 1 round, but people still have a fighting chance to interrupt them before they throw down a time-stop or whatever.

Thing is, making casters less effective via long casting times makes them boring to play, while doing little to change the balance issue. Frankly, a 15th level wizard can do more in combat with glitterdust, web, and levitate than a 15th level fighter can do with his sword and bow. And outside of combat no one cares how many rounds it takes to cast teleport, plane shift, raise dead, fabricate, contact other plane, wish, or greater planar binding.

Commonly, people try to do a "quick fix" of the caster/mundane balance issue by making casting either 1) slower, or 2) dangerous and unreliable. Both of these fixes fail to address the problem because it's the effects themselves that create the balance issue, not the means by which the effects are produced. Casting is not broken because it is too fast and reliable. It's broken because the choices are too varied and the effects too powerful. Thus, making it slower and less reliable won't fix it: you have to attack the caster's versatility and power.

To REALLY fix it, you need to do this:

Replace T1-quality casting classes with T3-quality casting classes.
Replace T5-quality mundane classes with T3-quality mundane classes.
Selectively nerf about 50 spells.


That will fix the issue, but such a fix requires considerable time and expertise, and produces a ruleset that varies enough from regular D&D that not everyone will agree on using it. Still, that's the way to get it done.


And it would apply to metamagically enhanced spells as if the metamagicked spell was of the higher level, so nix on the 'cast buffed magic missiles endlessly' idea.

You would be amazed how much metamagic I could cram into a first-level spell slot. Really. But the end result is the same -- skilled optimizers will continue to romp the battlefield using metamaticked low-level spells, long-duration buffs, and quickened or immediate spells, while those who lack that skill will just perceive casters as weak and unfun and stop playing them.

Lapak
2010-11-04, 02:51 PM
Not quite. Initiative was rolled every round, your initiative was (roughly) Ini result + spell level and if you took damage before that time, the spell was lost.

The general idea was really good. I miss it.It was a good rule. It also gave the spells that didn't follow the general guidelines a boost - spells like the Power Words, for example, which all had a casting time of 1 instead of [Spell Level] because they were a Power Word.

Psyren
2010-11-04, 02:56 PM
Don't nerf the casters. Nerf the spells.

I just imagined a gaggle of robed men picketing outside the OP's tower with this on their signs :smallbiggrin:

olthar
2010-11-04, 02:57 PM
Not quite. Initiative was rolled every round, your initiative was (roughly) Ini result + spell level and if you took damage before that time, the spell was lost.

The general idea was really good. I miss it.

I was going to suggest the same thing. 2nd edition did a modified initiative every round. You basically had to determine what you were doing before the round began and then based on your actions you initiative order would be modified. Each weapon had its own weapon speed and each spell had its own casting time. This basically served to make it so thieves always went first (thief weapons were generally high speed) followed by fighters (slashing weapons were usually in the middle), then clerics/wizards would take up the rear (spells could range from thief speed to entire turns depending on the spell and blunt weapons were slow).

The problem with that system was that it slowed the game down a lot. I never realized how long combat took in 2nd edition until I finally started playing third (about 2 years ago). Simply rolling initiative once and being able to determine your actions on the fly is really nice.

Endarire
2010-11-04, 05:59 PM
School Access and Balance
Limiting school access as a balance mechanism?

Really?

Transmutation and Conjuration contain the greatest density of most powerful Wizard spells! Conjuration alone, even in core, has spells that target every save (even no save!) and many that don't check SR.

You're hurtin' the newbs the most. Most the spells I cast as a buffer/disabler are C or T because they're just that efficient. A level 1 grease can hamper even high-level opponents, and makes golems who can't fly a joke!

Without the polymorph series, most offensive casters will treat Conjuration as their favored school.

I've played in a game where there were massive penalties for casting in combat. Guess what happened.

Go on. Guess.

I didn't cast in combat! Instead, I buffed my allies into Bigger, Stupidier Fighters and let them tear things apart! And it worked so well, the DM nerfed my buffing ability!
Ahem.

DM Intervention
Being something like a Wizard and then having the DM nerf my desired concept into effective uselessness tells me these things

1: The DM doesn't understand the system.
2: The DM thinks he knows how I should play my character better than me.
3: The DM is a control freak.

Spells as the Source of a Caster's Power
To echo the sentiment about spells being the source of power, not the clases: VERY YES! Go to your local Player's Handbook for 3.x and look me in the eyes as you try to truthfully tell me that a Wizard is intended as something other than a spell launching platform who knows a lot and may make magic items.

No matter how many metamagic feats you get, glitterdust is still a lethal against anything sight-dependent or stealth-dependent. This is a level 2 spell, and spells merely get more lethal and powerful from here!

Limiting Quantities of Spells Known
If a Wizard has a set number of spells known like a Sorcerer, he's effectively an INT-based Sorcerer! As DM, you should consider carefully whether you want a Wizard as a PC option at this point.

Closing Words
Nerfing a class or concept by making it less fun makes the game less fun because there are fewer viable options.

It's a similar reasoning to needing crappy prereqs to get what you want.

Coidzor
2010-11-04, 06:09 PM
You need to alter the benefits of being a specialist wizard then if you're imposing that much of an extra nerf on it.

As it stands, being a specialist wizard is not balanced against being a normal wizard anymore because not only can you never learn or cast spells from a certain school without wish, you also lose out on the number of schools you can know at all above and beyond that. So that's 2 schools you lose for being a specialist and 3 you lose for being a focused specialist.

Building off of Endarire's comments, you might as well just do away with wizards and create your own version of the Beguiler/Warmage/Dread Necromancer by giving them a set of 1-2 schools from which to cast spontaneously with advanced learning to learn extra ones. You'd have to choose whether to allow the advanced learning to give utility spells from beyond the class's schools or if it'll just be extra spells of the class's schools that aren't on the class spell list.

This would, however, also necessitate a choice between just making their spell list that of the arcane spells of that school (which I'm not too sure on, but I think one would want them to be prepared casters in that case) or having to make up their spell list from scratch (or just giving them all of the spells of those schools from the PHB).

I think Beguiler/Dread Necromancer/Warmage work like that last one, anyway. Get all of the core spells plus a few extra plus the ability to learn non-core spells with advanced learning?

Susano-wo
2010-11-04, 08:18 PM
@ Endarire: I'm a little confused. you seem to be making a simultaneous its not going to be effective, and it makes them useless argument...am I missing something?

RE the trans and conjuration are too important: she did attempt to address the conjuration issue. I guess it just means that most people are going to go for those two first, then pick two others that they like...

RE DM intervention: with the modification reducing the casting time penalties, how are they useless? And is your concept really tied to knowing every school? If so, then
A: if its too powerful, and *needs* to be nerfed, then how does that relect badly on a GM? That's like saying that your concept is to be able to do anythign you want, and complaining when you cant:smalleek:

B: you can take extra schools. Assuming 4 at starting, then by human 5 you can have that concept, or other race 6.

also:
2: The DM thinks he knows how I should play my character better than me.
What this is, I don't even....:smalleek:
how is trying to tone down a wizards power saying *anything* about how you should play the character, or that the DM thinks they know your cahracter better than you??

and RE: Spells: yes, you should nerf spells that are too powerful. And even if you did that, Wizards would still tower over fighters, etc in versatility, and probably power, as a class. The school limitation is just an attempt to tone down that versatility a bit, so they at least can't do *everything* with the same character

Just because a wizard can't know every spell at the same time does not make him a sorc. It all depends on how limited. and, what was it, 10+INTmod/lvl, you will still know *far* more spells as a sorcerer. Just not potentially *all* of them

Finally, I fail to see how disallowing certain schools makes a wizard unfun, or nerfs the concept. YOu still have a wide breadth of knowledge, a lot of different spells to choose from, you just have to focus your theme a little more, or use some of your feats to get more

Tyndmyr
2010-11-04, 09:01 PM
You might as well just say "I'm banning casters."

This.

Doing what the OP suggested merely lets the players believe they can use shenanigans to retain wizard's uber broken powers. So, you toggle between useless and just as broken, depending.

Consider an incantatrix that buffs himself ludicrously and persists them. It now takes him a few more rounds to buff in the morning. Meh. The bog standard unoptimized blaster wizard is useless, though. Imagine playing a warmage with this. May as well not even bother.

It does not target the most broken casters at all well. The most powerful are affected least(yay for T1s who can collect all low level spells, and metamagic them into hatefullness). The less powerful casters are affected more.

thompur
2010-11-04, 09:40 PM
One thing I have done to reduce the power of Wizards a little is to make some spells sorcerer only, some wizard only. I also banned Wish, Limited Wish, Celerity, nerf, but not eliminate polymorph(I can't bring myself to ban such iconic spells), partly by limiting duration to 1rd/lvl, and available forms, and make adjustments to S-o-X's.

Also, ban some of the more ridiculous metamagic feats, like persistant spell, and don't give them as bonus feats.