PDA

View Full Version : Broken Wildshape?



Gamer Girl
2010-11-04, 04:01 PM
I just don't get it.

I've played a druid character lots of times, and had plenty of druids in games I have been the DM of......But I've never come across whatever the problem with wildshape was?

All over boards like this one, I will see posts about what is 'wrong' or 'broken' about wildshape, but few details.

And then Pathfinder nerfed wildshape, for some reason?

What was and is the problem?

My druid who can wildshape into fire elemental is cool, but she is not exactly going to burn down the whole world or anything....

dragonsamurai77
2010-11-04, 04:04 PM
Certain Wildshapes are as powerful as a non-optimized Fighter, and Wildshape gives the druid freedom to completely dump physical stats.

Coidzor
2010-11-04, 04:15 PM
As opposed to being MAD. It's kinda damned if you do, damned if you don't, that kind of feature on a caster.

OP: Basically, Wildshape allows the Druid to basically do anything except for the very highest tier of spellcasting, because they don't get Miracle.

Since Animal Companion allows for a better fighter than a non-optimized fighter and Wildshape allows the druid to become a better fighter than a non-optimized fighter while being able to cast all of his control/blasting/summoning spells, things can very shortly become a cluster of bears being summoned and riding other bears and attacking people. "Bears, my god," indeed.

jiriku
2010-11-04, 04:17 PM
Wildshape is really just one of the ingredients in the stewpot of druid brokenness. Try this on for size: wild shape into a tiger, or a dire lion. Cast animal growth and girallon's blessing on yourself, along with air walk so that you can fly. Add bite of the weretiger just for fun. You're now a flying pouncing kitty the size of an elephant, with up to seven attacks per round, Str, Dex, and Con stats in the high 20's or low 30's, and an extremely respectable AC. And you have an animal companion. And you can cast druid spells.

Or you could be a fighter and take Greater Weapon Specialization.

EDIT: BTW, I am greatly entertained that you chose an imaginary creature for your forum nickname.

Greenish
2010-11-04, 04:29 PM
Wildshape is really just one of the ingredients in the stewpot of druid brokenness. Try this on for size: wild shape into a tiger, or a dire lion. Cast animal growth and girallon's blessing on yourselfObjection! Even wildshaped, you're not a valid target for Animal Growth.

That said: "I'm a druid! I have class features more powerful than entire classes!"

[Edit]: Also, no need to marginalize others based on their gender.

WarKitty
2010-11-04, 04:47 PM
Certain Wildshapes are as powerful as a non-optimized Fighter, and Wildshape gives the druid freedom to completely dump physical stats.

Pretty much this. PF druids retain their physical stats with a minor bonus to one stat and are still a Tier 1 class.


BTW, I am greatly entertained that you chose an imaginary creature for your forum nickname.

I'm hoping you forgot the sarcasm tag?

ShriekingDrake
2010-11-04, 05:31 PM
What others have said . . . and . . .

You get to become some really cool creatures with Wild Shape, even if you just stay in core. If you can add non-core material, then the doors you can get five attacks with poison by becoming a Fleshraker (MMIII) and if you get access to a variety of wild shape feats, you can turn into a dragon (Steel Dragon), a cold-type creature (12 headed Cryohydra), or aberrations (Choker, rust monster, will o' the wisp), among others. It can let you fly, swim, climb, jump, burrow and the like without using a spell. And once you add the Natural Spell feat at 6th level, you can cast spells while you're in that form.

Check out some of the handbooks to see the best forms.

Marnath
2010-11-04, 05:35 PM
EDIT: BTW, I am greatly entertained that you chose an imaginary creature for your forum nickname.

This is not the best place for a joke like that, considering how many playgrounders are female gamers.

InkEyes
2010-11-04, 05:50 PM
The problem is WotC didn't design most of its animals with the Druid in mind. Technically, a druid needs to observe an animal before polymorphing into it, but in some campaigns running into super-strong animals, like Dinosaurs, is a non-issue. Three poison attacks +venomfire +werebear's bite? Yes, please!

The class ability gets more obscene when you stack it with feats like Natural Spell, which lets you Call Lightning as you fly high in the air in Eagle form. Better yet, get Frozen Wild Shape and turn into a Cryohydra all day. Need to talk to your friends? Let the Wizard cast telepathic link on you! You'll never need to go back to your pitiful ape form again.



EDIT: BTW, I am greatly entertained that you chose an imaginary creature for your forum nickname.

I hate to dogpile, but clarify this, please.

Kantolin
2010-11-04, 05:50 PM
If you ask me, druids aren't necessarily broken, but they are generally very powerful. Wildshape makes you as good a fighter as the fighter without any actual work put into it, and makes your physical stats quite moot.

In one of the games I'm in, for example, we have a psychic warrior, an offensive stabbing dragon shaman, and a paladin all up front , and we have a druid. Everyone except the druid has spent most of their feats/etc in being a combatant. None of us are optimized in the slightest, min dyou.

The druid, who has spent no feats on being a good fighter at all (most of his feats are ranged), and is usually slightly better of a fighter than anyone else.

It's not to the point where the druid is infinitely better or anything, but that's a telling statement - the druid turned into a bear, and later a dire bear, and just goes up to things and smacks them until they go away, sometimes casting a buff on himself. He and I (The psychic warrior) compete for most purely physical damage.

But then he's also a full spellcaster. When we get into a fight where physical attacking is a less pleasant idea, he shrugs, turns into a bird if he feels like it, and starts throwing spells at people instead.

So essentially, a druid (or cleric) is overpowered because they can easily become a better fighter than the fighter, and also they're full spellcasters on top of this. Wildshape is in large part how a druid accomplishes this.

Keld Denar
2010-11-04, 05:55 PM
You'll never need to go back to your pitiful ape form again.
Dire ape form would like to have a word with you...that word is REND!!!!!

I hate to dogpile, but clarify this, please.
I think it was an insinuation that there is no such thing as a person who is both a gamer, and a girl. It was a joke, I'm guessing. Gamer girls are rare, but they do exist (and have feelings too!). There are more than a few VERY active ladies around, from Serpentine to Saph to Jarien and many others.

Really, I'm more surprised that the forum name "Gamer Girl" wasn't in use. Her register date says Nov 2010, this month, which means in the ~7 years this forum has been active, nobody's registered it.

PS: Welcome to the forums!

d13
2010-11-04, 05:58 PM
EDIT: BTW, I am greatly entertained that you chose an imaginary creature for your forum nickname.

This is not the best place for a joke like that, considering most of the playgrounders wouldn't recognize a joke even if it was dancing naked in front of their eyes.

Anyway...

Basically, everything that everyone said so far. Wildshape is broken, because that simple class feature makes other classes redundant, even while it doesn't hurt the druid at all.

InkEyes
2010-11-04, 06:09 PM
This is not the best place for a joke like that, considering most of the playgrounders wouldn't recognize a joke even if it was dancing naked in front of their eyes.

Yes, that's exactly why what he said is problematic. Forum posters are humorless. Nothing else.

Keld Denar
2010-11-04, 06:13 PM
There is no humor, Citizen, go back to your fun.

Eloel
2010-11-04, 06:19 PM
Yes, that's exactly why what he said is problematic. Forum posters are humorless. Nothing else.
Seconding this. No humor in forum dwellers. Everyone knows girls that game do not exist.
[/sarcasm] Here, that should tag the end of your post as well.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-11-04, 06:20 PM
Let me break down for you a Core example of why Wildshape is very strong. Mind you, this is using ONLY materials in the SRD (the DMG, PHB, and MM):

At level 6, just one level after you get access to Wildshape, you are able to get both Natural Spell, and use a Brown Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm) to wildshape into.

Here's the advantages over a core Fighter:

1) Strength 27. This more than makes up for your 3/4 base attack bonus (which, at level 6, is only a difference of +2 anyways), meaning better odds of hitting, AND higher damage output.

2) As a full attack, you get 2x Claws and 1x Bite attack. That's 3 attacks, a Fighter would have to go down the Two-Weapon Fighting chain to match that. And that bite does more damage than most Greatsword attacks.

3) Large size. This means you now have a natural reach of 10'. This means opponents will generally threaten an AoO before they can even make their first attack. If you Entangle them, you basically get free hits, because you can reach further than most of them can. Against Large opponents, you negate this advantage that they normally would have against you.

4) Improved Grab. You can grapple as a *free* action if you land a Claw attack. That generally means they're stuck taking damage without being able to counter. It also greatly inhibits opponent casters from casting, unless they somehow have Still Spell and remembered to apply it to the right spells.

Mmmkay, so that's just what the FORM has over the fighter. Now let's proceed to what a Druid can actually DO with it.

At 6th level, a Druid can cast up to 3rd level spells. This gives them the following options:

Greater Magic Fang. All their natural weapons (claws and bite) now get an enhancement bonus to attack and damage and count as magic weapons for bypassing DR. Basically, free magic weapons. And duration is hours/level, so after a few more levels, this effectively means 'all day long'.

Poison. 1d10 Con damage. This hurts. And you can cast it. As a bear. With reach.

Sleet Storm. Blocks line of sight, makes it very difficult to move around, and ignores SR. One of the best battlefield control spells around.

Summon Monster III. Lot of people bypass this. Don't. On this list includes a Lion, with FIVE attacks on a charge (two claws, bite, and two Rake attacks), Improved Grab (and can add in two Rake attacks while grappling for THREE attacks while immobilizing the opponent). Dire Wolf is also on this list, which gets a free Trip attack when they hit with their Bite, making them also very handy battlefield control. Either one can provide Flanking for rogues.

Neutralize Poison. Yes, you get this before even Clerics do.

Call Lightning. Yes, you are a bear. That can strike you with lightning from a clear blue sky, or even underground. As a standard action.

Barkskin. Increase your AC.

Soften Earth And Stone. More battlefield control.

Wood Shape. Impress the orc with the spear by tying it into a pretzle. As a bear.

Entangle. One of the best 1st level battlefield control spells around.

Then we have your Animal Companion, which either has received bonus HD, or has been traded up. In fact, next level, you can have a Brown Bear, Lion, or Rhino as your animal companion.

That's all by level 6.

By level 9, you get a really fun and nifty spell called Animal Growth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animalGrowth.htm). Read it over really good. Then realize that you can cast this on yourself while Wildshaped, and hit your Animal Companion and any summons that are still active with this at the same time.

Then we get to the feat Improved Natural Attack to further increase damage output.

So now you begin to understand, young padawan, the power of the force Wildshape.

All this is done with zero attempt at 'optimization', which can get truly sick. Also done with zero additional books other than the Core books. And done off the top of my head with minimal thought involved.

Top off with the ability to cast healing spells, and you begin to see how they can really be a party of one.

InkEyes
2010-11-04, 06:32 PM
Durr, didn't see this.


Dire ape form would like to have a word with you...that word is REND!!!!!

Pitifiul apes don't know how to REND!!! But, yes, that is another very nice form. Again, WotC didn't balance creature abilities with PC Druids.


I think it was an insinuation that there is no such thing as a person who is both a gamer, and a girl. It was a joke, I'm guessing. Gamer girls are rare, but they do exist (and have feelings too!). There are more than a few VERY active ladies around, from Serpentine to Saph to Jarien and many others.

The novelty of gamer girl jokes wears thin when you've been on the receiving end of them more then once. I'm not saying this is the worst joke ever!!! and I'm not a spokeswoman for girlkind, but I didn't find it funny, just for reference. I guess I'm coming off as a humorless feminist here so I'll make a better joke:

A squirrel walks up to a tree and says, "I forgot to store acorns for the winter and now I am dead." Ha! It is funny because the squirrel gets dead.

Cicciograna
2010-11-04, 06:33 PM
stuff

[/thread]

The more you advance in level, the more the gap between Tier 1 and lower Tiers gets big and deep.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-11-04, 06:35 PM
Summon Monster III. Lot of people bypass this. Don't.
It has a one-round casting time which makes you quite vulnerable to spell disruption.

On the topic of the gamer culture joke, while it wasn't in particularly poor taste, I didn't find it amusing. As male-centric as the hobby is, there are enough female gamers that it felt like an obvious, ridiculous untruth instead of a humorous if inaccurate observation.

Coidzor
2010-11-04, 06:48 PM
Really, I'm more surprised that the forum name "Gamer Girl" wasn't in use. Her register date says Nov 2010, this month, which means in the ~7 years this forum has been active, nobody's registered it.

...I...I can't believe I didn't check the date. but... yeah. Wow :smalleek:


By level 9, you get a really fun and nifty spell called Animal Growth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animalGrowth.htm). Read it over really good. Then realize that you can cast this on yourself while Wildshaped, and hit your Animal Companion and any summons that are still active with this at the same time.

As far as I've understood it, wildshape does not change one's type and thus a wildshaped druid isn't actually an animal and so can't be targeted by the spell. Doesn't seem to indicate that casting it on the companion would have it affect the druid either.


Additionally, the druid may cast a spell with a target of "You" on her animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A druid and her animal companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal).

So, it could be interpreted to go both ways or just one way.

Susano-wo
2010-11-04, 07:36 PM
I think everyone pretty well covered wildshape (though I did find it funny that one poster said that its not proken, but powerful, and proceded to talk about how the druid in the party was as good if not better than the fighter, and had full casting.:smallamused:)

Oh, to clarify/repeat. The real kick in the teeth is natural spell, which makes choosing between awesome bear form and spellcasting a non issue, and allows for you to use some things like greater magic fang on yourself (your type does not change so you are still not a legal target for animal targeting spells. Unless you're an animal druid:smallbiggrin:)especially if its the kind of campaign where you don't often need to come out of your wildshape form for the whole day.

One thing I did not realize until recently as I had never actually played a druid, was that Wildshape is Infinite time, X times per day. I htink my brain automatically assumed that of course is must be 1rnd/lvl...:smallsigh:
ok, looking it up, that is not true, according to the SRD. it's 1hr/lvl, which by the time you get to sixth and you have natural spell, is 12hrs a day using both your usages. so pretty much whenever you need it:smallfrown:

Now upon researching this to fact check my post I encountered something interesting in AlternateForm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm), which the wildshape ability emulates except wehre it specifies differently. Actually 2 things.
First, I seem to recal Dire animals being a pretty common choice (dire Bears, for instance). Correct me if I am wrong, but is that not a template? That makes it not legal for Wildshape.
Second, you keep your same HP(though I think this means base, since you do get the critter's CON score). this means that in the case of certain beasties at least, you might actually be of lower HP than if you were naturally that beastie.

(oh, and RE: no girl gamer jokes...at worst, it was tired and clumsy...is it really worth making a fuss over? :smalleek:especially in absence of actually commenting on the thread? Its hardly insulting...at least to the girls:smallannoyed:)

Coidzor
2010-11-04, 07:50 PM
Dire animals are not actually templated, as there is no Dire template except from 3rd party sources. (http://www.necromancergames.com/pdf/ToHDire.pdf)

So, in WOTC products, dire animals are just a variety of animal related to the lesser versions of them. I believe the official idea is to think of dire bears as the kind of bears that were around back when everything was bigger and nastier than it is on modern earth.

Also, yes, Druids keep their normal HP, which is why they can't actually dump Con if they want to fight. However, they can heal and buff themselves while animals can't, and the damage output is the same or better than the base animal. Unless one remembers to not allow the animal's non-bonus Improved Natural Attack feats to be used, in which case, several animal forms' natural weapons go down a notch(though not that much since it's mostly strength that's being done as damage anyway)

Kantolin
2010-11-04, 07:52 PM
Well, the game hasn't been wrecked by the fact that there's a druid in it. The druid is the most effective, but not by the leaps and bounds that people generally imply.

It's very powerful, but this isn't chain-gating solars or ending all encounters on round one or something. He's just slightly more effective than others.

It's like most practical low-optimization games with a monk in them. The monk may be a bit under par, but not by significant enough to really care about it.

Lev
2010-11-04, 07:52 PM
Objection! Even wildshaped, you're not a valid target for Animal Growth.

That said: "I'm a druid! I have class features more powerful than entire classes!"

[Edit]: Also, no need to marginalize others based on their gender.

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=4473669

Coidzor
2010-11-04, 07:58 PM
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=4473669
Ahh, but on the other hand... (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=4473696)
This is far too much fun.

Susano-wo
2010-11-04, 08:01 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Coidzor. I can see either way (as far as Dire being template vs just a different version). mostly, templated seems to indicate otherworldlyness or unattural effects, such as undeath, so it makes sense that it be excluded. And dire animals are naturally occruing, DnD wise, so that makes sense as well.

Oh, but if you are using wildshape to fight, you can most certainly dump con, since you change CON scores to the new form :P. There really isn't anything you can do about the HP issue aside from being aware that critters with bigger HD than you might still be tougher than you in WS form (such as dragons).

@Kantolin. I gotcha. not broken in a practical, game is still fun and everyone contributes sense :smallsmile:

@Lev Thank you. I don't know the URL, but I crave that thing everytime someone uses that meme

dammit, the comp I am on does not want to load the site...I'll have to wait until I get home to view them ; ;

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-11-04, 08:07 PM
Also, at 12th level, you get Plant Form, which is nearly worthless except for one obnoxious trick:

Shambling Mound (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shamblingMound.htm) has an interesting interaction with electricity. Namely, temp Con points. Now then, what can Druids start calling, as of 3rd level? Figure it out, and go to town.

Urpriest
2010-11-04, 08:10 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Coidzor. I can see either way (as far as Dire being template vs just a different version). mostly, templated seems to indicate otherworldlyness or unattural effects, such as undeath, so it makes sense that it be excluded. And dire animals are naturally occruing, DnD wise, so that makes sense as well.

Oh, but if you are using wildshape to fight, you can most certainly dump con, since you change CON scores to the new form :P. There really isn't anything you can do about the HP issue aside from being aware that critters with bigger HD than you might still be tougher than you in WS form (such as dragons).


You change Con scores, but your Con bonus to your hit points stays the same. Weird but true.

Coidzor
2010-11-04, 08:17 PM
Also, at 12th level, you get Plant Form, which is nearly worthless except for one obnoxious trick:

Shambling Mound (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shamblingMound.htm) has an interesting interaction with electricity. Namely, temp Con points. Now then, what can Druids start calling, as of 3rd level? Figure it out, and go to town.

Summon Nature's Ally 2? Do Storm Elementals get added to that list for a small storm elemental?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-11-04, 08:20 PM
Summon Nature's Ally 2? Do Storm Elementals get added to that list for a small storm elemental?

Energy Substitution (Electricity) Produce Flame.

However, I meant to say third *spell* level with Call Lightning.

Keld Denar
2010-11-04, 08:21 PM
Energy Sub Extended Creeping Cold?

Energy Sub Persistant Creeping Cold?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-11-04, 08:23 PM
Energy Sub Extended Creeping Cold?

Energy Sub Persistant Creeping Cold?

We were using Core examples, but yes energy sub persistant creeping cold is what makes the combo completely broken.

Susano-wo
2010-11-04, 08:24 PM
You change Con scores, but your Con bonus to your hit points stays the same. Weird but true.

what? but? that? :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

I guess it does say your *HP* stays the same, though I can see either way(that's my phrase tonight.... Is there an officil FAQ/rules compendium/ stat block example?

Urpriest
2010-11-04, 08:28 PM
what? but? that? :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

I guess it does say your *HP* stays the same, though I can see either way(that's my phrase tonight.... Is there an officil FAQ/rules compendium/ stat block example?

There was a Dragon article at the time from one of the designers that went into detail about why the change was made and why that's what it means. There is almost certainly a FAQ clarification as well, though I'm not sure precisely where.

Optimator
2010-11-04, 08:45 PM
Also, at 12th level, you get Plant Form, which is nearly worthless except for one obnoxious trick:

Shambling Mound (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shamblingMound.htm) has an interesting interaction with electricity. Namely, temp Con points. Now then, what can Druids start calling, as of 3rd level? Figure it out, and go to town.

Ironmaws freaking own.

Susano-wo
2010-11-04, 08:47 PM
Thanks. I'll see if there is anything in the Rules Compendium when I get home. Not that its releant, but I feel its important to know. >.>

Quietus
2010-11-04, 08:59 PM
what? but? that? :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

I guess it does say your *HP* stays the same, though I can see either way(that's my phrase tonight.... Is there an officil FAQ/rules compendium/ stat block example?

There was an update to Polymorph.. I think it was in PHB2, but don't quote me on that. By a strict reading within the PHB (the original one), druids do indeed get to use the new form's con, and are valid targets for Animal Growth, because of Wild Shape being based off of Polymorph. There was a later update which changed Polymorph so it no longer changed the subject's type, and made it so that the new con score didn't affect your HP. So technically, it depends on whether or not you're using that errata - but within the world of RAW, it's assumed that you are.

Susano-wo
2010-11-04, 09:03 PM
at least according to the SRD, its based on Alternate Form. was this a later change?

ArcanistSupreme
2010-11-04, 10:09 PM
Energy Sub Extended Creeping Cold?

Energy Sub Persistant Creeping Cold?

Does the damage keep increasing if it's extended (4d6 turn four, 5d6 turn five, etc.)? :smalleek:

Even so, I don't see how that's really broken unless it's persisted, but then you're using an 8th level spell slot. Is creeping cold even a valid target for persist?

Keld Denar
2010-11-04, 10:15 PM
It has a duration, and it isn't dismissable. The thing about it is that you Energy Sub it and Persist it on YOURSELF. Every round, you get shocked and gain Con as a Shambling Mound.


Anyway, Alternate Form IS the errata of Wildshape. It used to be based on Polymorph. Now it has its own rules. What you read in the SRD is the errata'd version.

Gamer Girl
2010-11-04, 10:40 PM
Really, I'm more surprised that the forum name "Gamer Girl" wasn't in use. Her register date says Nov 2010, this month, which means in the ~7 years this forum has been active, nobody's registered it.

I just joined today, 11/4/10. I was a bit shocked 'Gamer Girl' was open too...I was already to try 'Gamer Girl 1', 'Gamer Girl 2', 'Gamer Girl 3' for like an hour, like you have to do for most places.

I was shocked when Gamer girl was Open!

Tael
2010-11-04, 10:43 PM
The best spell for the combo is actually Thunderhead, a 1st level spell that does 1 electricity damage to a target for rds/level.

Coidzor
2010-11-04, 11:17 PM
It has a duration, and it isn't dismissable. The thing about it is that you Energy Sub it and Persist it on YOURSELF. Every round, you get shocked and gain Con as a Shambling Mound.

Means it's a good thing wild shape isn't dispel-or-AMF-able without also getting rid of the spell effect...

Gamer Girl
2010-11-04, 11:24 PM
Thanks everyone!


Let me break down for you a Core example of why Wildshape is very strong.

Sure and tanks for the details, I can see the problems others have...but I have different problems.



At level 6, just one level after you get access to Wildshape, you are able to get both Natural Spell, and use a Brown Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm) to wildshape into.

Ah, I remember the days when this was possible. Maybe from 6th-to 10th ish level. But even at 6th level, I run into a problem. About half the things we fight in a game, I don't want to physically touch.

Undead are the most obvious example, bearshape me does not want to enter melee and bite a spectre or grapple a vampire. But also plenty of things like elementals, and outsiders and just things like a hydra.

I find that by 10th level or so wildshape looses it's combat use, at least until you can become an elemental.



3) Large size. This means you now have a natural reach of 10'. This means opponents will generally threaten an AoO before they can even make their first attack. If you Entangle them, you basically get free hits, because you can reach further than most of them can. Against Large opponents, you negate this advantage that they normally would have against you.

Except a lot of monsters are huge or bigger, and large monsters are common too. A bearform has good reach against only human sizes.



4) Improved Grab.

But Grab an illithind? Or an elemental?



Greater Magic Fang.

Same basic problem, after like 6-10th level I don't want to take the risk biting stuff or attacking by touching them.



Poison. 1d10 Con damage. This hurts. And you can cast it. As a bear. With reach.

But again not only do you need to touch them, but they have to be vulnerable to poison. By 10th level plenty of stuff is immune to poison.




Sleet Storm. Blocks line of sight, makes it very difficult to move around, and ignores SR. One of the best battlefield control spells around.

I use this spell when I wildshape into a *Penguin*!



Summon Monster III.

I love my animals! We use that 'summon the same ones' thingy.



Call Lightning. Yes, you are a bear. That can strike you with lightning from a clear blue sky, or even underground. As a standard action.

It's not a bad spell, but it's not much use vs Spell Resistance. It gets kind of useless against like demons and drow and illithids.




Wood Shape. Impress the orc with the spear by tying it into a pretzle. As a bear.

Eureka! I might 'get it'! The reason people think wildshape is powerful is that they go up against encounters that are too weak for the party.

By 6th level I'm fighting duegar, not orcs! And a couple of enlargedduegar half-feinds have the size, spell resistance and are immune to poison to boot. And I can't wood shape their flaming mithral battleaxe



So now you begin to understand, young padawan, the power of the force Wildshape.

I guess:If you fight monsters way below your level of power, any ability is powerful.

So looks to me that the wildshape problem is just for people with the 'Low Magic' type games. I think I got it now! Thanks :)

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-11-05, 12:02 AM
Thanks everyone!



Sure and tanks for the details, I can see the problems others have...but I have different problems.



Ah, I remember the days when this was possible. Maybe from 6th-to 10th ish level. But even at 6th level, I run into a problem. About half the things we fight in a game, I don't want to physically touch.

Undead are the most obvious example, bearshape me does not want to enter melee and bite a spectre or grapple a vampire. But also plenty of things like elementals, and outsiders and just things like a hydra. There's nothing wrong with touching undead, just with letting the undead hit you with a touch attack. Make sure they die first. Or just let the cleric dust 'em with a turn attempt. Nothing wrong with smacking outsiders either.


I find that by 10th level or so wildshape looses it's combat use, at least until you can become an elemental. Then you and I must be playing in very different games, because I never run into anything I can't hit. Your unarmed attacks are magic weapons, thanks to Greater Magic Fang, so you can even bite incorporeals.


Except a lot of monsters are huge or bigger, and large monsters are common too. A bearform has good reach against only human sizes. You didn't read the last sentence, did you? Huge has the same reach Large does... 10'. You negate their advantage by doing this.


But Grab an illithind? Or an elemental? Yep! An illithid has to grab YOU, not the other way around. With your Str up at 27, no way in hell it's going to out-grapple you, so it is stuck, unable to use it's nastiest attack, and needs to make concentration checks to manifest anything. Elementals do 1d4 damage/round, IF they do any damage at all. You're dishing out something like 2d6+OMG in return. Guess who wins on that?


Same basic problem, after like 6-10th level I don't want to take the risk biting stuff or attacking by touching them. You need to clarify with your GM the difference between you hitting them with a natural attack and their needing to make a touch attack against you.


But again not only do you need to touch them, but they have to be vulnerable to poison. By 10th level plenty of stuff is immune to poison. Sure, but it's only one weapon in your arsenal. And you already have reach to apply it with.


I use this spell when I wildshape into a *Penguin*! Or just cast Freedom of Movement and stay a bear.


It's not a bad spell, but it's not much use vs Spell Resistance. It gets kind of useless against like demons and drow and illithids. Useless? I'd rather say that SR is worthless. The odds of not overcoming SR is negligible if you are even remotely close in CR.



Eureka! I might 'get it'! The reason people think wildshape is powerful is that they go up against encounters that are too weak for the party.

By 6th level I'm fighting duegar, not orcs! And a couple of enlargedduegar half-feinds have the size, spell resistance and are immune to poison to boot. And I can't wood shape their flaming mithral battleaxe Said orc being a 6th level Warblade... I'd say it's a good bit nastier than any of the above. SR, as I said, is nearly worthless for them. Duegar is not immune to poison, and neither are Half-Fiends., Outsiders are not, by type, immune to poison. Half-Fiend is also a CR + 1-+3 depending on the HD of the base creature, which is laughabally under-CR'd.


I guess:If you fight monsters way below your level of power, any ability is powerful. See above rebuttals. I think you have an unrealistic expectation of 'not wanting to hit' and the importance of SR.


So looks to me that the wildshape problem is just for people with the 'Low Magic' type games. I think I got it now! Thanks :)Nope, just for people actually playing the rules as listed.

Kantolin
2010-11-05, 12:33 AM
Uh.

Well, what is the fighter doing during that frame of time?

I mean, one of the druid's best advantages is that, should he decide 'I don't feel like clawing this undead' for some reason, he can then... throw magic at it. Or buff himself or buff everyone else or something.

I mean, if you're fighting an.... I dunno, a gelatenous cube or something, the fighter doesn't want to go anywhere near it either or he'll also get engulfed, so he can fire arrows at it or something while you're using all of your magic?

If the fighter's cool with hitting it, then you're also cool with hitting it. Wild Shape is 'You are a better fighter'. And then you have an animal companion which is also a fighter. You then can cast spells. This is why druids are very powerful (Clerics are similar, but I find clerics are betterer fighters and casters but lack the animal companion extra perk, but have to buff in combat generally unless you're using shenanigans).

I mean, you mention reach. The fighter with his greatsword lacks this reach, and thus provokes from everything - and as you pointed out, a /lot/ of things have reach. >_> Those enlarged duergar that are giving you trouble would give the party's fighter equivalent trouble.

I mean, it seems many of your arguments are 'being a physical attacker doesn't work', and if that is true, then wild shape indeed isn't going to be terribly useful for combat (And I'd focus on using it for, say, turning into a bird and staying waaay over there). But if you have a party fighter (Or paladin, or ranger, or monk, or barbarian, or hexblade or samurai or swashbuckler), they're going to be having all the same troubles but be incapable of deciding "Okay, now's a good time to be a spellcaster instead".

I'd much rather be a druid than one of those guys, if melee attackers in your game go as poorly as you seem to let on. >_>

LordBlades
2010-11-05, 12:51 AM
Whether wildshape is broken or not, it depends on your vision upon the game.

If your standard for 'good melee' is sword&board fighters and paladins then yes, it's broken. However, if you usually play with DMM Persist clerics and uberchargers, then it's just another powerful ability.

The main problem with wildhshape (and polymorph and similar effects) is that, especially for newer DMs, it's difficult to adjudicate how powerful it is. Unlike most other class abilities, which mainly do what it says on the box and little else, what wildshape/polymorph can or can't do greatly depends on the player's patience to scour monster manuals for creatures.

InkEyes
2010-11-05, 12:55 AM
There's nothing wrong with touching undead, just with letting the undead hit you with a touch attack.

The examples she used (vampires and wraiths) actually only drain attributes on successful melee attack rolls, which is harder to do than a touch. It's even harder if you wildshape into something with tons of natural armor/cast barkskin on yourself/wear beastskin armor.



Ah, I remember the days when this was possible. Maybe from 6th-to 10th ish level. But even at 6th level, I run into a problem. About half the things we fight in a game, I don't want to physically touch.

Undead are the most obvious example, bearshape me does not want to enter melee and bite a spectre or grapple a vampire. But also plenty of things like elementals, and outsiders and just things like a hydra.

Shneekey already covered the undead and outsiders, but does your DM constantly throw fire elementals at you? Because that's the only kind that actually deal damage when you natural attack them. Better yet, why aren't you casting either (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resistEnergy.htm) of these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEnergy.htm) spells on yourself if your DM throws these creatures at you so much?


I find that by 10th level or so wildshape looses it's combat use, at least until you can become an elemental.

I'm just gonna copy every good form out of the brilliant gameologist guide. Remember, you'll always be better with all those nice buffs you can cast on yourself, too!


Level 5
* Baboon: Str 15 Dex 14 AC 13 - It probably has better stats than your physical stats, and it has natural armor and a bite attack. All in all, not too bad.
* Crocodile: Grapple check: +4 - The grappler form of choice if Fleshraker is out of the question. Hard-hitting enough to be useful even outside of a grapple. Swim speed, but doesn't breathe water.
* Fleshraker DinosaurMM3: An absolutely OMG form, if it's allowed. Fleshrakers can charge, pounce, trip, pin, and poison, all in one round, and also has great AC to boot. It remains awesome whenever you have to charge something, especially if it's medium-sized or smaller.
* Deinonychus Dinosaur: Charger. Nothing can compare to Fleshraker, but this is fine in a fight on its own merits.
* Leopard: Charger. The core-only and no-dinosaur alternative to the Fleshraker and Deinonychus.
* Protoceratops DinosaurSand[/b]: Charger. A bit tougher and harder-hitting than Deinonychus, but not as good when it comes to stand toe-to-toe, and definitely not as good as the Fleshraker.
* Desmodu Hunting BatMM2: AC 20, Con 13 - Your starter defensive form, with AC 20 and touch AC of 17. Doesn't hurt at all that it flies 60 ft/round.
* Dire HawkRotW: Speed 80 ft. (average) - Faster than Desmodu Hunting Bat, but has slightly lower Dex and AC, and isn't as hard-hitting.
* Eagle: Speed 80 ft. (average) - The best core-only flier at this level, but has mediocre AC and Dex, and abysmal attacks.
* Squid: Aquatic grappler. Not as strong as crocodile, but has more attacks and breathes water.
* Medium Shark: Utility form. Fast swimmer, decent biter.
* Dog, Riding Dog, Donkey, Pony: Forms to snoop around town in
* Swindlespitter Dinosaur(MM3): AOE blinding poison attack (combine it with Venomfire from Serpent Kingdoms!), and may double as a spy form in certain areas. (MM3 says some cultures consider Swindlespitters to be sacred.)

Level 8
* Brown/Polar Bear: Grapple check: +12 - The quintessential grappler form, with strong attacks, fair AC, and a great grapple check. The bears are versatile enough to fight a crowd, then grab a tough foe and tear it apart in a grapple. (Choose Polar if you want to min-max every tiny bit; the two are identical with regard to Wild Shape save for the Polar Bear's swim speed.)
* Dire Lion: Grapple check: +11 - If the Fleshraker isn't available, this is an interesting compromise between first-strike-charger forms and slugger/grappler forms like the Polar Bear. It isn't as hard-hitting as most traditional grappler forms, though.
* Cave Triceratops (MiniHB): The first form where you can try the Triceratops Shuffle. Charge a foe (doing double damage because of Powerful Charge), then Trample that foe and move away as part of the Trample move. Then charge again, and repeat. This isn't the best charger or trampler, but the combination is killer.
* Megaraptor Dinosaur (MM errata): This is harder-hitting than Dire Lion and doesn't rely on Rakes to deal damage (and is thus better in a toe-to-toe fight), but it doesn't grapple. Use it for charging and fighting foes you couldn't grapple anyway.
* Rhinoceros: WHAM. One big nasty hit, especially when charging but even in a toe-to-toe fight.
* Cave Anklyosaurus (MiniHB): Large, 3d6+7, DC 18 - Awesome AC and its single attack is still quite effective, when trampling isn't practical.

Level 9
o Cave Tyrannosaurus (MiniHB) - Grapple check: +11 - Not quite as hardhitting as Polar Bear, but this is your first form with Swallow Whole (which only works on Small or smaller foes, mind).
o Smilodon (Sabre-Toothed Tiger) (Frost) - Grapple check: +11 - A marginal improvement on Dire Lion: x3 critical on bite, best attack is primary, claw attacks can start grapple.

Level 12
o Dire Bear - Grapple check: +14 - Like the Polar Bear, only moreso.
o Warhound Impaler (Lesser Battlebriar) (MM3) - Grapple check: +10 - This isn't the hardest-hitting or strongest grappler, but it can impale (Medium-sized or smaller) grappled foes on its thorns with a free-action grapple check, rendering them helpless. Not pinned, not grappled, but helpless. Plus, it has an AOE attack and tramples! Plant.
* Level 15
o Giant Banded Lizard (Sand) - Grapple check: +17 - Comparable to the Dire Bear in damage output, but has better grapple check and poisoned claws. It has terrible AC, though.
o Ironmaw (FF) - Grapple check: +N/A - This isn't strictly a grappler, but it fights like one. Ironmaws have six tendrils with ridiculous reach, and a tendril hit can attach to a foe, pulling them within reach of the Ironmaw's so-so bite or OMG Engulf ability, which does fair damage and suffocates. Tendril hits also cause bleeding and Con damage. Did I mention the Ironmaw has great AC? The only drawback is the exceedingly low speed, which keeps you from staying in Ironmaw form all day. Plant.
o Octopus Tree (FF) - Grapple check: +18 - Eight(!) Improved Grab attacks, Swallow Whole, great damage, and frightful presence. A top-tier grappler form. Too slow on land to spend all your time in this form outside of an aquatic campaign, and it isn't clear if it breathes water or air. Plant.
o Tendriculos - Grapple check: +17 - The ultimate Swallower. Anything that can't make the DC 20 Fort save before cutting its way out will die. Plant.


Level 18
o Dire Polar Bear (Frost) - Grapple check: +23 - The ultimate grappler form.
o Tyrannosaurus Dinosaur - Grapple check: +17 - The core-only alternative to the Dire Polar Bear or Giant Banded Lizard. Isn't as tough or hard-hitting, but it's a heck of a lot more stylish, and it does have Swallow Whole.



Except a lot of monsters are huge or bigger, and large monsters are common too. A bearform has good reach against only human sizes.

Wildshape into something huge, or have a wizard cast enlarge on you. Or wildshape into a bird and fly high above things and rain death down as your summoned creatures and animal companion maul the enemy to death.


Same basic problem, after like 6-10th level I don't want to take the risk biting stuff or attacking by touching them.

Thinking that this is a reasonable counterargument makes me wonder. Is your DM taking liberties with what physical contact against enemies does? Also, good god, does he really throw all sorts elementals and undead against you? I hope you don't have any precision damage-dealers in your party, they'd feel mighty useless.


But again not only do you need to touch them, but they have to be vulnerable to poison. By 10th level plenty of stuff is immune to poison.

Again, the only things that are regularly immune to poison are undead, constructs, and elementals. Your DM must really hate rogues!


By 6th level I'm fighting duegar, not orcs! And a couple of enlargedduegar half-feinds have the size, spell resistance and are immune to poison to boot. And I can't wood shape their flaming mithral battleaxe.

You can heat metal it. Or chill metal it. Or just cast spells that aren't effected by Spell Resistance. Here's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/obscuringMist.htm) a (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entangle.htm) bunch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyI.htm) for (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/earthquake.htm) you (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm)! You can even stay in bear form while you do that with a simple core feat! Though you won't use a bear form, that's not nearly powerful enough; you should probably favor different kinds of dire animals and dinosaurs first and foremost!


I guess:If you fight monsters way below your level of power, any ability is powerful.

So looks to me that the wildshape problem is just for people with the 'Low Magic' type games. I think I got it now! Thanks :)

You're welcome. I'm glad we could help you reach this conclusion. :-)

faceroll
2010-11-05, 01:22 AM
As far as I've understood it, wildshape does not change one's type and thus a wildshaped druid isn't actually an animal and so can't be targeted by the spell. Doesn't seem to indicate that casting it on the companion would have it affect the druid either.

Huh. Looks like errata changed it. It works as alternate form in the online SRD, which in turn says you retain original type and subtype. In the 3.5 PHB, it says as polymorph, and when you go to polymorph, it says you count as the new type.


Energy Sub Persistant Creeping Cold?

Damn. That's ugly.


Useless? I'd rather say that SR is worthless. The odds of not overcoming SR is negligible if you are even remotely close in CR.

False. For a druid, they have to burn feats in order to reliably bypass SR. Otherwise they face a 30 to 40 percent chance of failure on casting spells CR equivalent monsters. This is not negligible. This is like putting your wizard in full plate. Which is really dumb.

Level 6 druid casts these spells:
Bite of the werewolf (share with Animal Companion)
Spikes on a quarterstaff
Shillelagh
Girallon's blessing (share with animal companion)
Halo of Sand (share with animal companion)
Luminous Armor (share with animal companion)

Turn into a baboon.

You have 17 str, which gets you +7 damage when you use 4 arms on your staff, which is +2 magical and has another +6 damage. You attack at +9 (+11 if you flank with AC) and do 2d6 + 15 damage. Your armor class should be around 30. You are at least as tanky as the fighter, and have damage output very close to a PHB fighter (with weapon focus, etc).

This is a nova-ish set up at 6th level. As 3rd level spells become less valuable, you can prep multiple spikes. They make your wooden weapon become +2, with a doubled crit range, and a bonus damage equal to caster level (cap at+10). Lasts 1rnd/lvl. Very solid.

At level 8, go with a dire ape morph. Continue using Girallon's Blessing with all 4 arms on your staff (with shillelagh on it). Put up luminous armor, halo of sand, and barkskin for +10 AC (effectively +14 vs. melee attacks; +6 vs. melee touch attacks). A dire ape already has 15 AC, so this should bring your AC up to 29. Against CR 8-10 opponents, that's a 40 to 80% miss rate, depending on foes.

Your attack will be +15/+11 for 3d6+16 damage. Use something like kelpstrand to grapple large & medium opponents with a bonus on grapple checks equal to caster level +wisdom, which means you can really wail on the multiple creatures you grapple (and maintain as a free action and don't count as grappling) with a 2nd level spell. You cast kelpstrand as a 4 armed dire ape in shining full plate and a halo of swirling sands that deflects attack. Also, you can fly. Throw on bull's strength and you get another +2 to hit and +5 damage.

Plus, you got control spells like entangle, spike growth, spike stowns, and utility spells like dominate animal, charm animal, shape stone, speak with animals, water breathing, etc. The only feat you've used is your 6th level, for natural spell.

tyckspoon
2010-11-05, 01:26 AM
Huh. Looks like errata changed it. It works as alternate form in the online SRD, which in turn says you retain original type and subtype. In the 3.5 PHB, it says as polymorph, and when you go to polymorph, it says you count as the new type.


A recent enough printing of the PHB should have that particular errata in it as well, since it's both relatively old and kind of a huge change. Otherwise, yes, that's one of the reasons it's important to keep up to date on the errata for at least the Core (or Core-analogue) rulebooks for a system; sometimes they do things with much, much greater effects than "oh, hey, we forgot to pluralize that, let's make that unstupid." (...although misplaced or forgotten pluralizations can do some pretty dumb things to the rules too.)

Kaww
2010-11-05, 01:43 AM
Let me break down for you a Core example of why Wildshape is very strong. Mind you, this is using ONLY materials in the SRD (the DMG, PHB, and MM):

At level 6, just one level after you get access to Wildshape, you are able to get both Natural Spell, and use a Brown Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm) to wildshape into.

... /stuff/

You can't wildshape into a brown bear until lvl 8... Just a thing every bear loving druid should know... It's broken because power players want it to be broken. I prefer being an owl/crow/aflier and being a buffer/primary caster. It's very good when people think you are the wizard's familiar. You don't get shot at, you get to cast spells from the vicinity of the said wiz, blaming him...

Never outshine your friends until they ask you to...

Coidzor
2010-11-05, 01:46 AM
It's broken because power players want it to be broken. I prefer being an owl/crow/aflier and being a buffer/primary caster.

Never outshine your friends until they ask you to...

No, it's not broken because of how people choose to use it. It's broken because of how it can be used.

And why cast a spell when you can just as easily smash its face in because you're a bear/tiger/dinosaur, saving spells for things that are more threatening?

On the other hand, you're a primary caster, even just acting as a primary caster you're very capable of outshining the noncasters.

Mystic Muse
2010-11-05, 01:48 AM
No, it's not broken because of how people choose to use it. It's broken because of how it can be used.


This is what a lot of people seem to miss for some reason.

Just because it's not broken in your games doesn't mean it isn't broken.

Kaww
2010-11-05, 01:50 AM
Never outshine your friends until they ask you to...


No, it's not broken because of how people choose to use it. It's broken because of how it can be used.

And why cast a spell when you can just as easily smash its face in because you're a bear/tiger/dinosaur, saving spells for things that are more threatening?

On the other hand, you're a primary caster, even just acting as a primary caster you're very capable of outshining the noncasters.

Because you play nice. If you don't break anything people can't say you are broken. Correct?

EDIT:
This is what a lot of people seem to miss for some reason.

Just because it's not broken in your games doesn't mean it isn't broken.

Let's not get into this, you can theoretically optimize anything into being broken. A charging mounted fighter does an enemy per turn, right? You don't because it will make the game less interesting and people will start frowning, which is definitely not the point of this game...

Kantolin
2010-11-05, 01:54 AM
Well, it's also not immediately apparant that turning into a bear is wrong. :P

It's like divine power. Clerics seem built to be secondary combatants, and (in core) other 4th level spells generally suck to memorize, so a lot of clerics go Czilla since... well, frankly, they're just geared to do so.

That's the problem with clerics and druids, really. Wizards, bards, and sorcerors, depending on spell selections and tactics, may end up sucking... but clerics and druids kind of by default stray towards their zilla tactics unless you are aware that you need to be careful.

Playing my core dedicated healer cleric was hard - I would like to reemphasize that 4th level cleric spells are not generally things you want 'always memorized'. >_>

Oh well. Anyway, wild shape into a bear seems like it should be an acceptable thing to do (I mean, you get wild shape 'large'), but it gets vicious quickly. And then again, while powerful, it actually probably won't break your game to have the druid wild shape into a bear/direbear - that takes a bit more shenanigans.

Mystic Muse
2010-11-05, 01:57 AM
Because you play nice. If you don't break anything people can't say you are broken. Correct?

You'd be surprised.

"Broken" might be relative anyway. When these forums use it it generally means it goes past tier 3. When it's used in a normal game it might mean you're simply too many tiers higher than the current party.

InkEyes
2010-11-05, 02:45 AM
Because you play nice. If you don't break anything people can't say you are broken. Correct?

EDIT:

Let's not get into this, you can theoretically optimize anything into being broken. A charging mounted fighter does an enemy per turn, right? You don't because it will make the game less interesting and people will start frowning, which is definitely not the point of this game...

That's not how power levels are gauged in D&D. The common metric is based on overall potential to exploit weak points in the system. Druids are pretty much three classes in one thanks to their spell casting and class features. They have significantly higher potential to break the game because of this.

You're welcome to gauge the power level of druids based on builds your gaming group runs, but these experiences are filtered through the DM's adjustments to the system and the personal level of experience each player has. It's useful when you're designing campaigns for your friends, but not for arguing with obsessive people on the internet.

The reason the Tiers have gain popularity is because it sets a universal standard based on how flexible the class is. The airless void the tier ranks assumes is nowhere near accurate most of the time, but you no matter what way you cut it more potential can be milked out of a druid. They just do too much, and the campaign breaks down under the strain.

LordBlades
2010-11-05, 03:43 AM
The reason the Tiers have gain popularity is because it sets a universal standard based on how flexible the class is. The airless void the tier ranks assumes is nowhere near accurate most of the time, but you no matter what way you cut it more potential can be milked out of a druid. They just do too much, and the campaign breaks down under the strain.

I kind of disagree here. My gaming experience with druids has been a bit different (druid is my favourte clas just for the record). You can do anything, that's true, but that just means you'll be useful in in any situation, but that's not what breaks the game.

What breaks the game in my experience are overspecialised chars, that get so good at what they do that it's pointless to subject the party to that types of challenges anymore. When you have 2-3 of these chars in party, the amount of stuff that's still challenging drops down surprisingly fast.


As a druid, you're an excellent melee and caster, but you're never going to be a better caster than an optimzied wizard, nor will you be a better melee than a well built DMM persist cleric.

Kaww
2010-11-05, 03:51 AM
As a druid, you're an excellent melee and caster, but you're never going to be a better caster than an optimzied wizard, nor will you be a better melee than a well built DMM persist cleric.

Shapechange would like a word with you sir. Greater dispel as well. If you don't know people's weaknesses they are overpowered 99/100.

LordBlades
2010-11-05, 04:15 AM
Shapechange would like a word with you sir. Greater dispel as well. If you don't know people's weaknesses they are overpowered 99/100.

A cleric with the right domains has shapechange as well, so that puts them on equal footing unless you go by the strict interpretation of RAW where you also gain the spells the form you are assuming can cast. In that case druid has an advantage because there are forms with full cleric and wizard casting, but to my knwoledge none with full casting.

Also, I should have specified, but my observation was about generic mid to high level, not a flat 20.

As for dispelling, there are a huge number of counters to it: Spellblades, Rings of counterspells, caster level boosting (a cleric with the right tools can easily get a CL 8-10 above his HD for his buffs).

Greenish
2010-11-05, 04:17 AM
This is not the best place for a joke like that, considering most of the playgrounders wouldn't recognize a joke even if it was dancing naked in front of their eyes.But we would roll initiative.

At level 6, just one level after you get access to Wildshape, you are able to get both Natural Spell, and use a Brown Bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm) to wildshape into.No, you'll have to wait for level 8 and Large Wildshape.
3) Large size. This means you now have a natural reach of 10'.Not always. For example, the brown bear is Large, but only has 5' reach.
http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=4473669Yes, but we were talking about Animal Growth (and more generally, things that a druid can do).

Kaww
2010-11-05, 04:26 AM
A cleric with the right domains has shapechange as well, so that puts them on equal footing unless you go by the strict interpretation of RAW where you also gain the spells the form you are assuming can cast. In that case druid has an advantage because there are forms with full cleric and wizard casting, but to my knwoledge none with full casting.

Also, I should have specified, but my observation was about generic mid to high level, not a flat 20.

As for dispelling, there are a huge number of counters to it: Spellblades, Rings of counterspells, caster level boosting (a cleric with the right tools can easily get a CL 8-10 above his HD for his buffs).

I thought that DMM persist cleric uses a deity that gives more domains that grant turning? In this case no shape change 4u.

Now a Planetar (14HD) MM1 would like to talk with you...

Eloel
2010-11-05, 04:40 AM
I thought that DMM persist cleric uses a deity that gives more domains that grant turning.
Nope. Nightsticks are cheap.

LordBlades
2010-11-05, 05:27 AM
I thought that DMM persist cleric uses a deity that gives more domains that grant turning? In this case no shape change 4u.

Now a Planetar (14HD) MM1 would like to talk with you...

Most high level clerics (not that many though, I admit) I've seen go Limbo and Planning, for Shapechange, Time Stop and free Extend Spell

bokodasu
2010-11-05, 06:00 AM
Wait, go back to the Shambling Mound thing: it doesn't work that way. The electricity -> con thing is a special quality, which wildshape doesn't grant.

Do not try this at home.

Anyway, I don't personally think it's *broken*, but it is pretty powerful and far more flexible than any class feature a non-caster gets.

Don't want to actually get up-close and physical with something? Shape into a form that has fly or a fast move and get yourself into a range where you can zap it with spells and it can't hit you. Boat sinking? That's ok, you can breathe water and swim superfast. Feel like bashing some heads? Bear!

Personally, I find myself using Dire Bat so often that nobody in my party remembers I'm a half-orc. It's like an AC boost + fly, for free.

Ernir
2010-11-05, 06:12 AM
Wait, go back to the Shambling Mound thing: it doesn't work that way. The electricity -> con thing is a special quality, which wildshape doesn't grant.

There's a spell to fix that. Enhance Wild Shape, Spell Compendium.

Or maybe I should say break that.

bokodasu
2010-11-05, 06:20 AM
Oh, right. I'm not allowed to use that spell. :smallfrown:

Ernir
2010-11-05, 06:37 AM
Oh, right. I'm not allowed to use that spell. :smallfrown:

Smart DM. :smalltongue:

Tytalus
2010-11-05, 07:15 AM
Most high level clerics (not that many though, I admit) I've seen go Limbo and Planning, for Shapechange, Time Stop and free Extend Spell

I doubt that, since it only works if you have 3 domain choices instead of the usual 2.

The typical DDM Persist cleric setup is Planning/Undeath. If you really want Shapechange, pick one of those and replace the other with Animal.

WarKitty
2010-11-05, 07:26 AM
Part of the issue with druids is not just that they can be broken, but that a player who's not trying to optimize still has a tendency to break things unless they deliberately tone it down. My test is "would a fairly new player taking the obvious moves for the class still be broken?" With the druid, the answer is yes, because wild shape by nature tends to outshine most melee.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-11-05, 07:31 AM
You can't wildshape into a brown bear until lvl 8... Just a thing every bear loving druid should know... It's broken because power players want it to be broken.

One of my friends, not particularly well-versed in D&D, would probably go for the full bear spec druid because bears are awesome. Another one of my friends would probably (hypothetically, mind you; they don't game) go for the paladin, because that's how he rolls. When they hit 8th level or whatever and the bears come out, the paladin is going to be subpar. No power playing required, just a few inexperienced players falling into one of the many pitfalls of D&D. Thankfully, the less broken alternative to Wild Shape looks appealing (wait until 5th level to shapeshift? Hell no, I'm taking this other option), but the disparity is still very much there.


Shapechange would like a word with you sir.

At 17th level, there are far more fundamental problems than balancing the druid with the DMM cleric.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-11-05, 07:39 AM
It has a duration, and it isn't dismissable. The thing about it is that you Energy Sub it and Persist it on YOURSELF. Every round, you get shocked and gain Con as a Shambling Mound.

Oh. OH. Wow. That's an average of what, +1500 Con an hour?

LordBlades
2010-11-05, 07:51 AM
Part of the issue with druids is not just that they can be broken, but that a player who's not trying to optimize still has a tendency to break things unless they deliberately tone it down. My test is "would a fairly new player taking the obvious moves for the class still be broken?" With the druid, the answer is yes, because wild shape by nature tends to outshine most melee.

Most new players don't make very good druids. Yeah, wild shape:bear does tend to blow most Fighters out of the water, but good summoning requires quite a lot of bookeeping (more than the typical new player is willing and able to) and quite a lot of the really good spells are non core (many in books a new player wouldn't think of checking, like Frostburn or Sandstorm).

Tael
2010-11-05, 08:34 AM
Thanks everyone!
Sure and tanks for the details, I can see the problems others have...but I have different problems.

Which are not actually problems at all, as we shall see.


Ah, I remember the days when this was possible. Maybe from 6th-to 10th ish level. But even at 6th level, I run into a problem. About half the things we fight in a game, I don't want to physically touch.

Undead are the most obvious example, bearshape me does not want to enter melee and bite a spectre or grapple a vampire. But also plenty of things like elementals, and outsiders and just things like a hydra.
... there is absolutely no reason why you don't smack things like vampires, outsiders, or even elementals (except fire). The things that you would have problems with wildshaped are the things that ANY melee person has problems with, using natural weapons or manufactured weapons!


I find that by 10th level or so wildshape looses it's combat use, at least until you can become an elemental.
Okay, now I'm just confused, because #1: Elemental forms suck! The only good elemental form is air, and that is a defensive caster form. #2: There are tons of good animal forms at high levels! Dire bear, the most obvious things to transform into ever, is at level 12 and very good.


Except a lot of monsters are huge or bigger, and large monsters are common too. A bearform has good reach against only human sizes.
Uh, hello, you can transform into huge creatures, and again, what the hell kind of other melee is going to be larger than a druid? How does a fighter or barbarian do anything at all in the kinds of games you play in?



But Grab an illithind? Or an elemental?
Again, there is nothing wrong with grabbing any elemental but fire ones. They do not have permanent freedom of movement! And grabbing an Illithid is a good idea! They have pathetically bad grapple checks, and if you don't grapple them, they'll be smacking you down with spells. If for some reason you fail 4 easy grapple checks in a row, teleport out!


Same basic problem, after like 6-10th level I don't want to take the risk biting stuff or attacking by touching them.
I cannot stress how little sense this makes. If you think druids are bad in combat, what the hell does your normal melee do?


But again not only do you need to touch them, but they have to be vulnerable to poison. By 10th level plenty of stuff is immune to poison.
Like what? Constructs and Undead yea, but it's still a really powerful spell. And the fact that it is spell means that you use it when you need it, like when you're fighting something vulnerable to it. Druids have plenty of other spells for poison immune things.



I use this spell when I wildshape into a *Penguin*!

I love my animals! We use that 'summon the same ones' thingy.

:smallconfused: Uh, that's nice?



It's not a bad spell, but it's not much use vs Spell Resistance. It gets kind of useless against like demons and drow and illithids.
If you don't use a spell because it allows SR, then you cut out 3/4 the spells in D&D. Do you never play casters?


Eureka! I might 'get it'! The reason people think wildshape is powerful is that they go up against encounters that are too weak for the party.

By 6th level I'm fighting duegar, not orcs! And a couple of enlargedduegar half-feinds have the size, spell resistance and are immune to poison to boot. And I can't wood shape their flaming mithral battleaxe



I guess:If you fight monsters way below your level of power, any ability is powerful.

So looks to me that the wildshape problem is just for people with the 'Low Magic' type games. I think I got it now! Thanks :)

:smallannoyed: If you knew anything about Shneeky and half the other people who posted replies, you would know that one thing they don't do is fight encounters that are beneath their level. Try listening to collective wisdom for once.

WarKitty
2010-11-05, 08:44 AM
Most new players don't make very good druids. Yeah, wild shape:bear does tend to blow most Fighters out of the water, but good summoning requires quite a lot of bookeeping (more than the typical new player is willing and able to) and quite a lot of the really good spells are non core (many in books a new player wouldn't think of checking, like Frostburn or Sandstorm).

Meh, my first attempt at a druid was awful and I still blew everyone else out of the water. Our other members were a bard, a rogue, a sorcerer, and a barbarian. All I did was wild shape and spam produce flame/call lightning.

LordBlades
2010-11-05, 09:02 AM
Meh, my first attempt at a druid was awful and I still blew everyone else out of the water. Our other members were a bard, a rogue, a sorcerer, and a barbarian. All I did was wild shape and spam produce flame/call lightning.


Tbh I fail to see how you could out melee the barbarian using only wildshape, unless it was really a bad build. At lvl 8(when you get wildshape(large) ) a brown bear should have 2 claws +13 (1d8+8) and bite +8 (2d6+4), whereas even the simplest barbarian (human with 16 str, +1 greatsword +2 str item) should be like +15/10 (2d6+10).

WarKitty
2010-11-05, 09:08 AM
Tbh I fail to see how you could out melee the barbarian using only wildshape, unless it was really a bad build. At lvl 8(when you get wildshape(large) ) a brown bear should have 2 claws +13 (1d8+8) and bite +8 (2d6+4), whereas even the simplest barbarian (human with 16 str, +1 greatsword +2 str item) should be like +15/10 (2d6+10).

I think it was level 5 with a black bear. But it wasn't wild shape by itself as much as wild shape + spellcasting + animal companion.

LordBlades
2010-11-05, 09:23 AM
I think it was level 5 with a black bear. But it wasn't wild shape by itself as much as wild shape + spellcasting + animal companion.

Yeah, I see your point. You get a lot of options, much more than any other paarty members anyway. That's what I like about druids(and what makes them tier 1): versatility. Whatever happens, the druid will have a way to deal with it. However, at the optimization level my group plays, sometimes it's a bit frustrating that whatever I try to do, I'll jsut fall a bit short of the char that's focused at doing that (not by much though, I can still help in a menaningful way).

WarKitty
2010-11-05, 09:34 AM
Yeah, I see your point. You get a lot of options, much more than any other paarty members anyway. That's what I like about druids(and what makes them tier 1): versatility. Whatever happens, the druid will have a way to deal with it. However, at the optimization level my group plays, sometimes it's a bit frustrating that whatever I try to do, I'll jsut fall a bit short of the char that's focused at doing that (not by much though, I can still help in a menaningful way).

Yeah. This was a totally unpotimized SRD-only game. Only one player (the bard) had ever played 3.5 before. We were also fairly shy on non-weapon magic items.

bokodasu
2010-11-05, 10:06 AM
Yeah, I see your point. You get a lot of options, much more than any other paarty members anyway. That's what I like about druids(and what makes them tier 1): versatility... sometimes it's a bit frustrating that whatever I try to do, I'll jsut fall a bit short of the char that's focused at doing that (not by much though, I can still help in a menaningful way).

Huh. That's the thing I love about being a druid too - I like being able to do everything. But I don't think I should be better at any given thing than someone who specializes in it, so I see that as a feature, not a bug.

But I'll agree that if you're playing with a bunch of people who don't know what they're doing, the druid can really easily go over the top. I picked it for my current campaign because I'd never really looked at one before, and I thought, hey, I like playing hippies. And then I started ripping people's faces off, and was like, "oh, I see. I am two fighters and a spellcaster. Well, all righty then."

And my druid is a 28-pb, (mostly-) core half-orc with fairly even stats. If I'd known what I was doing when I started, I'd be seriously scary.

nekomata2
2010-11-05, 01:04 PM
Also, at 12th level, you get Plant Form, which is nearly worthless except for one obnoxious trick:

Shambling Mound (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shamblingMound.htm) has an interesting interaction with electricity. Namely, temp Con points. Now then, what can Druids start calling, as of 3rd level? Figure it out, and go to town.

Pff, you are overlooking the first level spell Thunderhead from the SpC. 1rnd/caster level, automatically struck by lightning dealing 1 point of damage. Much better than wasting actions to call the lightning.

Edit: unless I missed someone else mention it. I didn't realize I was on the first of multiple pages...:smallcool:

Moglorosh
2010-11-05, 01:37 PM
Obviously she doesn't want to bite undead because they're icky.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-11-05, 01:41 PM
Obviously she doesn't want to bite undead because they're icky.

While not an uncommon sentiment to hear in games, it's worth remembering that adventurers tend to be exposed to highly desensitizing circumstances. While a generic druid might have trouble balancing the need to remove undead from the world with the need to avoid getting that filth in his mouth, an adventurer would likely be able to make the decision much more quickly, something that we occasionally forget (see: material component for Spider Climb)

Kesnit
2010-11-05, 01:50 PM
... there is absolutely no reason why you don't smack things like vampires, outsiders, or even elementals (except fire). The things that you would have problems with wildshaped are the things that ANY melee person has problems with, using natural weapons or manufactured weapons!

(snip)

Again, there is nothing wrong with grabbing any elemental but fire ones. They do not have permanent freedom of movement! And grabbing an Illithid is a good idea! They have pathetically bad grapple checks, and if you don't grapple them, they'll be smacking you down with spells. If for some reason you fail 4 easy grapple checks in a row, teleport out!

(snip)

:smallannoyed: If you knew anything about Shneeky and half the other people who posted replies, you would know that one thing they don't do is fight encounters that are beneath their level. Try listening to collective wisdom for once.

Actually, someone brought up the idea that the OP's DM isn't playing undead / elementals / mindflayers RAW. If the DM is playing them so that doing an unarmed melee attack on them allows them to do the effect they would get if the monster did the melee attack, the OP's comments make a lot more sense. Standard melee wouldn't be affected because they wouldn't be "touching" the monster - they'd be using weapons.

I don't know that this is the case, but it would explain the OP's viewpoint. Using those rules, of course a PC wouldn't want to use wildshape and go into melee with those things - not if you are being level-drained/grappled/etc every time you attack. (I know mindflayers have poor grapple attacks, but if the DM is houseruling melee attacks, maybe the DM using grapple differently.)

Akal Saris
2010-11-05, 02:14 PM
I do actually remember my DM's reaction when I wild-shaped into a triceratops and told the DM I planned to charge an elder fire elemental.

DM: You're charging him? The gigantic creature made of pure elemental flame? And you're going to stick your face into that?

I decided to cast Quench instead =P

jiriku
2010-11-05, 02:39 PM
I just joined today, 11/4/10. I was a bit shocked 'Gamer Girl' was open too...I was already to try 'Gamer Girl 1', 'Gamer Girl 2', 'Gamer Girl 3' for like an hour, like you have to do for most places.

I was shocked when Gamer girl was Open!

Welcome to the Playground, we're glad to have you here!

The big deal about druids IME is just that there isn't anything that druids do badly. I tend to encourage my noobies to play druids because I know that blindfolded in a dark room, new players will still manage to trip over three or four good druid combos while making their way from the snack table to their chair.

As for wild shape, even if the worst thing you do with it is just turn into, say, a dire bat, you've now gained flight that can't be dispelled, blindsense, blindsight, and a considerable boost to AC. All of these are strong defensive tools, and again, that's a pretty mild wild shape. However, it does sound as though your DM's interpretations of the rules are pretty disfavorable to wild shape.


{Scrubbed}

InkEyes
2010-11-05, 07:28 PM
Yes, I am a scoundrel and a very bad person. Children cry when they see me. Strong men faint. Police officers call for backup. You have brushed up against a post by the very Angel of Darkness himself. Heck, I even pull the tags off mattresses and don't always recycle my aluminum cans.

No, I was not attempting to belittle the OP. And I am not the least bit sorry if you didn't like my joke. But help is available for you (http://www.amazon.com/Humor-Home-Dummies-Malcolm-Kushner/dp/1572813822/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1288985218&sr=8-1)!

It would've been best to let that discussion die off, but if you want to go down that rabbit hole you should know that sort of joke is demeaning by its very nature. (As is the idea that people who are bothered by those kinds of jokes need help). However, I think we should stop here.


Instead, let's talk about all the ludicrous feats you can stack on wild shape to make it even more obscene! Even taking one of these feats gives a big bonus to Druids.

Dragon Wild Shape: Turn into a medium/small dragon and gain all its extraordinary (frightful presence, blindsense, immunities, etc.) and supernatural abilities (breath weapons)! Plus, four natural attacks! You can wild shape into a red dragon and never worry about taking damage from a fire elemental again!

Exalted Wild Shape: Turn into a celestial animal! Haha I'm just kidding, turn into a Blink Dog instead. Again, you also get all (Su) and (Ex) abilities.

Frozen Wild Shape: Twelve-Headed Cryohydra! And a lot of lesser creatures.

Vermin Shape: Actually a nerf but your DM will probably won't know what vermin forms to ban, so you can get away with a few tricks while they play catch-up. It's also probably easier to find giant bugs to study than dinosaurs.

Natural Spell: Duh. The thing that amuses me most about this feat is it was added to the PHB for 3.5. What honestly made WotC think this would be a good way to revise the Druid?

Assume Supernatural Ability: See, this is why people say Savage Species is broken.

Just for reference, I think if wild shape was the only major class feature of the Druid, it wouldn't be nearly as bad. The class is a layer cake of spell casting, wild shape, and animal companion goodness compounded by how difficult it is to screw up. If the class weren't as idiot-proof as it is, it might almost fall into Tier 2.

nedz
2010-11-05, 07:52 PM
Several people have mentioned Magic Fang and Magic Fang, Greater.
These only effect one natural weapon - which is the point of Magic Fang, Superior [Level 4 SpC]

Not that this takes too much away from the Druid, and I suppose you could always cast them multiple times.

Moglorosh
2010-11-05, 07:56 PM
I don't know that this is the case, but it would explain the OP's viewpoint.
It would. It wouldn't explain her condescension towards those who tried to answer her question though.

senrath
2010-11-05, 07:57 PM
Several people have mentioned Magic Fang and Magic Fang, Greater.
These only effect one natural weapon - which is the point of Magic Fang, Superior [Level 4 SpC]

Not that this takes too much away from the Druid, and I suppose you could always cast them multiple times.

Reread Greater Magic Fang. You can give all of your natural weapons a +1 bonus with it.

ShriekingDrake
2010-11-05, 09:05 PM
Exalted Wild Shape: Turn into a celestial animal! Haha I'm just kidding, turn into a Blink Dog instead. Again, you also get all (Su) and (Ex) abilities.
RAW--though many DMs are wise not to permit it--this feat also lets you turn ANY of your wild shape forms into celestial versions and you get their supernatural and extraordinary abilities. Not bad for one exalted feat.

Kerrin
2010-11-05, 11:14 PM
Wow! This discussion makes me want to play a druid sometime - the variety of things they can do and ways they can power up in astounding.

How bad is the bookkeeping what with your character, animal companion, wild shapes, and favorite summons to keep track of?

Coidzor
2010-11-05, 11:31 PM
How bad is the bookkeeping what with your character, animal companion, wild shapes, and favorite summons to keep track of?

Well, you have to write down your AC's stuff, and there's generally only going to be a handful of forms you actually turn into or summon so just writing down the relevant information isn't too hard.

But you do need to write it down so you don't end up having to leaf through the books and bog things down during combat.

So only slightly more than any other caster, I guess, and most of it is front-loaded.

LordBlades
2010-11-06, 02:36 AM
Wow! This discussion makes me want to play a druid sometime - the variety of things they can do and ways they can power up in astounding.

How bad is the bookkeeping what with your character, animal companion, wild shapes, and favorite summons to keep track of?

Depends on what you want to do with it.

Wildshape is not very hard. You have to decide on a couple of forms with different roles that are best for your level(DPR, grappler, pouncer, trampler, flyer, AC, swimmer, burrower is what I use, often a form can fulfill more than 1 role) and write down their stats.

Summoning might be a bit more troublesome, depending how much youwant to focus on it. If you're just using vanilla SNA you can get away with just doing a copy of the relevant MM pages. However, once you start using summoning feats, things start getting un-bearable. Over the course of 1 year of campaign, I managed to gather an 120 page booklet wits stats for my SNA with Greenbound and Augment summoning.

nedz
2010-11-06, 09:20 AM
Reread Greater Magic Fang. You can give all of your natural weapons a +1 bonus with it.

Oops - how did I miss that ?
I did check the text !
I guess it was late :smallbiggrin:

Gnaeus
2010-11-06, 03:15 PM
I just wanted to point out a couple of things which were vaguely touched on but not specifically mentioned...

Wildshape + Enhance Wild Shape spell + desmodu bat gives you Blindsight 120 all day long along with fly 60 (good) and a dex in the 20s. Even if you don't want to grapple things, a fast flying caster with good initiative who spots most hidden enemies and illusions from 120 feet away without even making a roll shatters most DM tricks not specifically aimed to counter them starting at level 7. I don't know any other class that can pull off this kind of combo at level 7.

Wildshape + Bite of the WereX + animal companion is a kind of exponential brokenness not achievable by any of the 2 factors alone. Bite of the WereX on something like a Spirit Shaman is a good, but not game breaking spell. Stacked onto a wildshape form turns you into a superfighter. Stacked onto a wildshape form and shared with your AC means that one of you charges and grapples almost any hittable enemy while the other does full attacks with roughly 40 strength on the pinned opponent.

faceroll
2010-11-07, 03:40 AM
Wow! This discussion makes me want to play a druid sometime - the variety of things they can do and ways they can power up in astounding.

How bad is the bookkeeping what with your character, animal companion, wild shapes, and favorite summons to keep track of?

It's like playing 3 casters- you, you with wildshape and battle buffs, your animal companion, and your AC with buffs.

Sir Giacomo
2010-11-07, 06:11 AM
I just don't get it.

I've played a druid character lots of times, and had plenty of druids in games I have been the DM of......But I've never come across whatever the problem with wildshape was?

All over boards like this one, I will see posts about what is 'wrong' or 'broken' about wildshape, but few details.

And then Pathfinder nerfed wildshape, for some reason?

What was and is the problem?

My druid who can wildshape into fire elemental is cool, but she is not exactly going to burn down the whole world or anything....

I agree with you, wildshape for a druid is powerful , but no problem (in particular not when just using core rules).

A druid using wildshape is powerful, but so is a fighter or other melee character using polymorph. By level 6, when a druid gets wildshape with the natural spell feat a fighter already since level 4 or so due to polymorph any object can have a hard-to-dispel, permanent fire giant shape with the feats to hurt opponents more in combat than anything a druid can do (because of his many feats allowing a spiked chain and improved trip and power attack etc.).


What often happens, though, is that the druid player retains wildshape while everybody else has no access to polymorph.
When a group plays with shapechanging/polymorphing effects for combat, it should not just be allowed to one character while making it impossible for others. Or imbalance ensues.

- Giacomo

Eloel
2010-11-07, 06:23 AM
I agree with you, wildshape for a druid is powerful , but no problem (in particular not when just using core rules).

A druid using wildshape is powerful, but so is a fighter or other melee character using polymorph.

Ha. Haha.

Exactly.

Druid is powerful with Wildshape (their own class feature)
Fighter is powerful with Polymorph (a full-caster's feature)

Even if you say they reach the exact same power (Druid has buffs too for himself. *gasp*); Druid is alone. Fighter needs a Wizard buffing him to catch up. You see the problem here?

ThunderCat
2010-11-07, 06:42 AM
Druid > fighter. Druid < fighter + caster to buff fighter. Two druids > fighter + caster to buff fighter. Druid animal companion < buffed fighter. Buffed druid animal companion + druid > fighter.

A case can be made that casters (including druids) are better off buffing the fighter than themselves or their animal companion, but it doesn't change that they simply bring more to the table (in terms of power) than the vast majority of non casters.

Tytalus
2010-11-07, 08:08 AM
By level 6, when a druid gets wildshape with the natural spell feat a fighter already since level 4 or so due to polymorph any object can have a hard-to-dispel, permanent fire giant shape with the feats to hurt opponents more in combat than anything a druid can do (because of his many feats allowing a spiked chain and improved trip and power attack etc.).


Really? A level 4 fighter gets Polymorph Any Object reliably cast on him (apparently in core)? As an 8th-level spell, it requires a metropolis (and a very, very lenient DM) to get a friendly NPC caster (of 15th+ level, no less) to cast it. If you campaign doesn't involve one or the other, you are out of luck. Running around in said metropolis as an evil giant should also pose considerable problems.

If the spell is permanent (probably not, unless humanoid and giant qualify as "same class"), the character has no means of ending the transformation himself. Again, as an evil giant, he's going to have serious trouble functioning in cities, but also in social situations and tight quarters (dungeons), etc. The druid, on the other hand, can end his transformation any time he wants (or needs) to. No offense, but it seems a bit disingenuous to insinuate the two are similarly realistic/viable options for the average adventurer.



Druid is powerful with Wildshape (their own class feature)
Fighter is powerful with Polymorph (a full-caster's feature)

Even if you say they reach the exact same power (Druid has buffs too for himself. *gasp*); Druid is alone. Fighter needs a Wizard buffing him to catch up. You see the problem here?

That seems to be his standard argument when comparing casters and non-casters. Of course the latter look good if you assume the rest of the party (full casters) have nothing better to do with their resources than buff the non-caster. It doesn't say anything about the classes themselves, though.

Runestar
2010-11-07, 08:30 AM
It is also worth noting that polymorph (and PAO, by extension) uses the wizard's caster lv or the recipient's HD, whichever is lower. So there is no way a lv6 fighter can be PAO'ed into a fire giant (which requires that the fighter be at least lv15).

Though an annis hag or treant would be a very powerful form for the fighter to assume at lv7 (when a wizard first gets polymorph).

However, wildshape lasts for hours (allowing the druid to endure multiple combats with just 1 use), while polymorph lasts just minutes (requiring the wizard to keep casting it on the fighter). So wildshape would be less taxing in terms of resources, even if it can't match the sheer power of polymorph until later.

Skaven
2010-11-07, 08:38 AM
I just don't get it.

What was and is the problem?


WIldshape alone would have been a perfectly balanced and reasonable class feature.

If the Druid didn't already have tier 1/2 spells AND an animal companion capable of soloing a poorly optimised tier 4 and below character.

They just have too many things.

Any one of these 3 abilities could make for a reasonably balanced class (well, except full spellcasting which already makes them high tier) but the problem is they have it all.

My houserule is that at level 5 they have to choose a single focus which raises from that point on, with the other 2 abilities staying locked at level 5. Though the two less optimal choices (wildshape + animal companion) get a few minor buffs to make them viable choices.

Runestar
2010-11-07, 08:42 AM
Or use the shapeshift variant in PB2. Still fairly strong at lower lvs (when the druid needs it most, because he only has so few spells/day), and pretty much worthless at higher lvs (which is when their spellcasting would take center stage anyways). :smallsmile:

WarKitty
2010-11-07, 08:44 AM
This is one thing I think pathfinder did well. PF wild shape grants a +2 to either strength or dex, a +1 or +2 to natural armor, and certain special abilities of each form (which ones you can get goes up as you level).

It's still possible to make a melee focused druid. But you have to put your high stats into strength and con, at the expense of your wisdom score.

Last Laugh
2010-11-07, 08:45 AM
If the spell is permanent (probably not, unless humanoid and giant qualify as "same class"), the character has no means of ending the transformation himself. Again, as an evil giant, he's going to have serious trouble functioning in cities, but also in social situations and tight quarters (dungeons), etc. The druid, on the other hand, can end his transformation any time he wants (or needs) to. No offense, but it seems a bit disingenuous to insinuate the two are similarly realistic/viable options for the average adventurer.


To get polymorph any object permanent you just need to cast it twice :smallconfused: (because now you are exactly the same as what you are getting changed to....)

Eloel
2010-11-07, 08:51 AM
To get polymorph any object permanent you just need to cast it twice :smallconfused: (because now you are exactly the same as what you are getting changed to....)

And when you get it permanent, you can't go back to live in a city without the caster around you. Even if you do, that's another 2 spells for the caster to get you back in shape. :smallconfused:

Last Laugh
2010-11-07, 10:04 AM
And when you get it permanent, you can't go back to live in a city without the caster around you. Even if you do, that's another 2 spells for the caster to get you back in shape. :smallconfused:
Polymorph any object is goofy.
Alternatively you can use a hat of disguise to turn into Hagrid!

Coidzor
2010-11-07, 11:57 AM
Or use the shapeshift variant in PB2. Still fairly strong at lower lvs (when the druid needs it most, because he only has so few spells/day), and pretty much worthless at higher lvs (which is when their spellcasting would take center stage anyways). :smallsmile:


This is one thing I think pathfinder did well. PF wild shape grants a +2 to either strength or dex, a +1 or +2 to natural armor, and certain special abilities of each form (which ones you can get goes up as you level).

It's still possible to make a melee focused druid. But you have to put your high stats into strength and con, at the expense of your wisdom score.

Because MAD and badly scaling class features are so much better in terms of design decisions.

ShriekingDrake
2010-11-07, 12:06 PM
One of our DMs has been experimenting with a system that allows the druid to keep all three of his major strengths, but he's nurfed them all. Here's what he's toying with.

Spell casting is spontaneous according to the variant rules.
Animal companion can not be replaced after 5th level, so it becomes a resource worth protecting. Once its gone, it can't come back, unless resurrected or something like that.
Wild shape choices are more limited: 4-6 animal choices and 2-3 plant and only 1 new form can be rotated out and another in at each odd level.

It's still a powerful class, but with less versatility.

WarKitty
2010-11-07, 12:28 PM
Because MAD and badly scaling class features are so much better in terms of design decisions.

MAD is ok in this case because of the power level. The whole idea here is to force the druid to focus on one side of things and not all of them at once. One well-functioning class feature is more than enough to make the druid a good class.

Coidzor
2010-11-07, 12:32 PM
MAD is ok in this case because of the power level. The whole idea here is to force the druid to focus on one side of things and not all of them at once. One well-functioning class feature is more than enough to make the druid a good class.

Splitting it still seems like the better design decision. Because, hey, the MAD limitation is overcome by someone who rolls well. So it's only a balancing factor for point buy games.

MAD is a feature of bad design.

WarKitty
2010-11-07, 12:34 PM
Splitting it still seems like the better design decision. Because, hey, the MAD limitation is overcome by someone who rolls well. So it's only a balancing factor for point buy games.

MAD is a feature of bad design.

I'm torn between "you're probably right" and "but druids wouldn't be fun for me anymore!"

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-07, 12:36 PM
A cleric with the right domains has shapechange as well, so that puts them on equal footing unless you go by the strict interpretation of RAW where you also gain the spells the form you are assuming can cast. In that case druid has an advantage because there are forms with full cleric and wizard casting, but to my knwoledge none with full casting.

Also, I should have specified, but my observation was about generic mid to high level, not a flat 20.

As for dispelling, there are a huge number of counters to it: Spellblades, Rings of counterspells, caster level boosting (a cleric with the right tools can easily get a CL 8-10 above his HD for his buffs).

You may by RAW have access to the spellcasting, but until you rest/prepare spells you can't actually cast them.

Sir Giacomo
2010-11-07, 12:43 PM
It is also worth noting that polymorph (and PAO, by extension) uses the wizard's caster lv or the recipient's HD, whichever is lower. So there is no way a lv6 fighter can be PAO'ed into a fire giant (which requires that the fighter be at least lv15).
.

That is a good find! I have overlooked that so far, thinking PaO is a bit too powerful to use at low levels. But this way - provided the characters in levels 4-10 ever enter a metropolis and thus can get this npc spellcasting service - a constant polymorph effect would be available for the melee classes that would not be overpowered.

You could get a medium-sized form and a hat of disguise to avoid problems in settlements hostile to your form.

- Giacomo

Edit@ozgun92: I do not see any problem in getting permanent buffs and equipment from npcs. After all, a wizard also gets his food, clothes, spell components and pages and ink for his book from somebody else.

Eloel
2010-11-07, 12:53 PM
Edit@ozgun92: I do not see any problem in getting permanent buffs and equipment from npcs. After all, a wizard also gets his food, clothes, spell components and pages and ink for his book from somebody else.

This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm) might provide some problem for your perma-buffed Wizard pet.

Susano-wo
2010-11-07, 12:56 PM
I'd disagree that MAD is inherently bad. Its only bad if you need all of those stats to be competant. If you can choose which ones (and consequentially which class features) to focus on, its fine.

For instance, take 4E class design. three 'main' stats (which is not MAD, I know, but still),but you don't need all of them, you only need a primary and secondary.


n play, I don't know how well the PF Druid creates this, but in theory its fine, since, as people have pointed out, casting+animal companion is a perfectly servicable druid anyway ^-^

Coidzor
2010-11-07, 01:09 PM
I'd disagree that MAD is inherently bad. Its only bad if you need all of those stats to be competant. If you can choose which ones (and consequentially which class features) to focus on, its fine.

For instance, take 4E class design. three 'main' stats (which is not MAD, I know, but still),but you don't need all of them, you only need a primary and secondary.


n play, I don't know how well the PF Druid creates this, but in theory its fine, since, as people have pointed out, casting+animal companion is a perfectly servicable druid anyway ^-^

For instance, in 4e, you choose which class path to take. You don't get given them all and can only use one or two effectively while the others flop like the vestigial structures they are.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-11-07, 01:09 PM
I do not see any problem in getting permanent buffs and equipment from npcs. After all, a wizard also gets his food, clothes, spell components and pages and ink for his book from somebody else.

I know that this was adressed to someone other than me but I'd like to comment.

Permanent buffs and equipment from NPCs are fine, in general. However, all the things you listed for the Wizard are mundane, and things that they could make themselves if they really wanted to. The things you listed for the Fighter are very much not mundane, and cannot be made by the Fighter if they feel like it (unless you mean mundane things under "equipment", but whilst a Wizard has high Int and skill points to spare on Craft, a Fighter's Int will rarely exceed 14 - if it even gets that high - and they probably don't have skill points to spare (particularly if they are spending points on the skills you have previously suggested for a standard Fighter to contribute out of combat)).

That the buff you suggested requires a metropolis and a level fifteen-plus caster - either one of which could easily require a quest just to know the location of, let alone travel to - and a decent chunk of your wealth for that level just to get be about as strong as but less versatile than a Druid using a standard class feature should heavily imply that one or, more likely, both of the classes has balance issues. Two castings of PAO cannot be reasonably compared to food, clothing and ink.

WarKitty
2010-11-07, 01:14 PM
For instance, in 4e, you choose which class path to take. You don't get given them all and can only use one or two effectively while the others flap like the vestigial structures they are.

I just like being able to cast while flying around over people's heads as a bird though... :smallbiggrin:

Urpriest
2010-11-07, 01:17 PM
For instance, in 4e, you choose which class path to take. You don't get given them all and can only use one or two effectively while the others flop like the vestigial structures they are.

Hardly. Look at any of the V-classes. Warlocks and Paladins both have many power choices that hang out being useless. The question of whether a character gets a power is moot if they're never going to use it.

Logalmier
2010-11-07, 01:18 PM
The PAO argument for fighters is just really... silly. So apparently low level characters can get an 8th level spell cast on them whenever they want. Huh, I never knew that. I'll have to try that sometime in a future game.

And also, yeah, the fighter can turn into something broken if someone else casts a broken spell on them. How is that different from the wizard? Oh that's right, the wizard is the one who can actually cast the spell. No "if someone else casts a broken spell on them" there!

Susano-wo
2010-11-07, 01:23 PM
For instance, in 4e, you choose which class path to take. You don't get given them all and can only use one or two effectively while the others flop like the vestigial structures they are.


Yeah, they went with the plenty of options availible to you, that you probably won't take if you aren't focusing on them option.

But it wouldn't be any different if they said here are the features of your class. Sure they'd be too powerful all at once, but due to stat distribution, you can only focus on 2/3rds or 1/2 of them or what have you.

Again, I don't know if PF druid ends up doing that, but it sound like it does in theory. If you want to be a melee bruiser wildshape druid, you'd better have at least decent physical stats.

Sir Giacomo
2010-11-07, 01:34 PM
This (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm) might provide some problem for your perma-buffed Wizard pet.

Dispel magic has the following problems at that level:
- the check maxes out at +10, while the PaO is level 15 or higher
- a targeted dispel may be impaired by a cheap ring of counterspelling/dispel magic, or other things that foil targeting (like total concealment)
- in how many cases would an opponent at those levels use dispel magic on the buffed fighter, rather than doing something else? The enemy caster would have to know about this particular buff in the first place to make it worthwhile (other than just casting lightning bolt, for instance).

- Giacomo

Eloel
2010-11-07, 01:37 PM
(other than just casting lightning bolt, for instance).

So, the fighter can buy a 8th level spell, twice, and the enemy wizards are casting Lightning Bolt, instead of Dispel, with their double-of-fighters' (score-wise. I know it corresponds to alot more if you scale) intelligence?
Next you'll tell me about Monks with UMD and wands :smallsigh:

ScionoftheVoid
2010-11-07, 02:10 PM
So, the fighter can buy a 8th level spell, twice, and the enemy wizards are casting Lightning Bolt, instead of Dispel, with their double-of-fighters' (score-wise. I know it corresponds to alot more if you scale) intelligence?
Next you'll tell me about Monks with UMD and wands :smallsigh:

This gets worse when you realise that Lightning Bolt is particularly crappy against single targets, especially ones confident in melee. Fly is better than Lightning Bolt by far against a big angry thing with a sword. Add to this that Dispel Magic is probably worth casting on any meleer due to it suppressing the items they would normally be relying on and it just keeps on getting worse. There is no way a Wizard worth even their spare spellbook would cast Lightning Bolt over Dispel Magic on a single, bruiser-type target.

Sir Giacomo
2010-11-07, 02:24 PM
This gets worse when you realise that Lightning Bolt is particularly crappy against single targets, especially ones confident in melee. Fly is better than Lightning Bolt by far against a big angry thing with a sword. Add to this that Dispel Magic is probably worth casting on any meleer due to it suppressing the items they would normally be relying on and it just keeps on getting worse. There is no way a Wizard worth even their spare spellbook would cast Lightning Bolt over Dispel Magic on a single, bruiser-type target.

You can only suppress the magic of an item by targeting dispel it, not by targeting dispelling/area dispelling the one who carries it.

And lightning bolt was just one example out of many. Say, the BBEG wizard is attacked by the typical 4-member party. Do you think he'll do an area dispel against the party or even a targeted dispel only against the fighter? That would be his action for the turn, after which the (slightly debuffed) party would have reach him and likeyl defeat him with their four actions.
No, he'll get out of range first and then do maybe some fireballs/lightning bolts, or slow the party and have his minions fight them. Dispel magic then would also be an option - but just one among many. And not one that has automatic success at those levels. Probably as a caster I'd save my dispel magic to get rid of some magic condition adversely affecting me.

- Giacomo

@ozgun92: what do you mean by buying the PaO twice?

Urpriest
2010-11-07, 02:25 PM
So, the fighter can buy a 8th level spell, twice, and the enemy wizards are casting Lightning Bolt, instead of Dispel, with their double-of-fighters' (score-wise. I know it corresponds to alot more if you scale) intelligence?
Next you'll tell me about Monks with UMD and wands :smallsigh:

I do hope you've taken a look at his signature. Just sayin'.

Urpriest
2010-11-07, 02:26 PM
@ozgun92: what do you mean by buying the PaO twice?

We've been assuming you're talking about the "PaO twice=Permanent" trick. Otherwise your choices of forms are more limited, if potentially still useful.

Mystic Muse
2010-11-07, 02:33 PM
@ozgun92: what do you mean by buying the PaO twice?

You'd have to buy PAO to turn into a fire giant which would last a specific amount of time, probably a week at most. You then have to buy PAO again to make the spell permanent.

There is a fair amount of debate on whether or not the "two castings equals permanent" trick works or not.

Coidzor
2010-11-07, 02:34 PM
Hardly. Look at any of the V-classes. Warlocks and Paladins both have many power choices that hang out being useless. The question of whether a character gets a power is moot if they're never going to use it.

You still choose the powers you take.


Yeah, they went with the plenty of options availible to you, that you probably won't take if you aren't focusing on them option.

But it wouldn't be any different if they said here are the features of your class. Sure they'd be too powerful all at once, but due to stat distribution, you can only focus on 2/3rds or 1/2 of them or what have you.

Again, I don't know if PF druid ends up doing that, but it sound like it does in theory. If you want to be a melee bruiser wildshape druid, you'd better have at least decent physical stats.

A character with good stats should not be broken by virtue of having better stats than another character. Superior, yes, but not to the extent of basically having another class's worth of class features open up.

You have said nothing to either challenge my foundational basis or show how the routes taken are good design.

Eloel
2010-11-07, 02:42 PM
I do hope you've taken a look at his signature. Just sayin'.
I didn't pick the idea out of a hat y'know...

Kesnit
2010-11-07, 02:43 PM
Hardly. Look at any of the V-classes. Warlocks and Paladins both have many power choices that hang out being useless. The question of whether a character gets a power is moot if they're never going to use it.

If they don't take those powers, there is no loss. So what if the power is useless - the player can take a power that is useful.

Urpriest
2010-11-07, 02:51 PM
If they don't take those powers, there is no loss. So what if the power is useless - the player can take a power that is useful.

Which is the point being made about a MAD druid: so what if he doesn't have the Str or Con to melee in wildshape, he can cast! (Or vice versa.)

While I can see the "MAD means high-stats characters are disproportionately more powerful" argument being relevant, in a game with rolled stats like you assume SAD characters similarly are much more powerful if they manage to roll an 18 somewhere than if they roll a bunch of decent scores. I don't see this as completely answering the charge, but it is important to remember that rolling stats will always introduce randomness into which of a class's options are useful regardless of MAD vs. SAD issues.

Susano-wo
2010-11-07, 03:10 PM
You still choose the powers you take.



A character with good stats should not be broken by virtue of having better stats than another character. Superior, yes, but not to the extent of basically having another class's worth of class features open up.

You have said nothing to either challenge my foundational basis or show how the routes taken are good design.


My point is that with Point Buy, which is the standard with 4E and Pathfinder (IIRC on that last one), you won't have better stats. You'll have the same stats as everyone else, but if you want, you can put more points into physical stats to make your wildshape viable as a combat form. (to use the PF druid example)

My point is that 4E gives you all your options, aside from your basic aspect. Just because you're A Thanborn Triumph Barb does not mean that you cannot take Rageblood Vigor, or vise versa. Just means that you [probably] don't want to, because they are desgiend to work around the class features and give you bonuses from different stats.

If Monks could effectively focus on any 3 of 5 stats (or even have 1 or two primary with the other's secondary), which would determine which monk abilities you could use well., their Mad would not be a design flaw, just a way of creating variety.

Lans
2010-11-07, 03:31 PM
If Monks could effectively focus on any 3 of 5 stats (or even have 1 or two primary with the other's secondary), which would determine which monk abilities you could use well., their Mad would not be a design flaw, just a way of creating variety.
They can, just that it involves a lot of work, and is really only worth it as a mental exercise type of thing.

Coidzor
2010-11-07, 03:34 PM
Again, if your design hinges upon a set array for balance, in a game with a HUGE tradition of RNG stats, you're doing it wrong. And what's more, not thinking things through very well.
My point is that 4E gives you all your options, aside from your basic aspect. Just because you're A Thanborn Triumph Barb does not mean that you cannot take Rageblood Vigor, or vise versa. Just means that you [probably] don't want to, because they are desgiend to work around the class features and give you bonuses from different stats.

Err, you just pointed out how the class features are different rather than still being there while also being less than useful. Like I had said.


If Monks could effectively focus on any 3 of 5 stats (or even have 1 or two primary with the other's secondary), which would determine which monk abilities you could use well., their Mad would not be a design flaw, just a way of creating variety.

Indeed, they'd just be gimped by a lack of useful class features in that case.

Susano-wo
2010-11-07, 03:34 PM
dbl post. sorry

WarKitty
2010-11-07, 03:39 PM
Again, if your design hinges upon a set array for balance, in a game with a HUGE tradition of RNG stats, you're doing it wrong. And what's more, not thinking things through very well.

That could pretty much describe the entirety of D&D.

Dire Moose
2010-11-07, 03:44 PM
In my campaign, I've rarely seen a problem with Wildshape, but druids are broken well enough anyway.

The druid in the campaign I'm running rarely uses Wildshape, but has proved to be a major annoyance due to ridiculous overuse of Summon Nature's Ally and his mastery of grappling. Oh, and he now uses Animal Growth with the above to cause even greater headaches.

For much of the middle portion of the campaign (levels 5-9) he's relied on the "Hippogriff Spam" technique to pretty much shut down anything I've thrown at the party. Against both an Erinyes assassin serving as a major villain and a juvenile red dragon blocking the party's way through the mountains, he's summoned tons of hippogriffs to grapple and pin them, causing them to crash while in flight and preventing them from even moving toward the party without taking a ridiculous amount of AoO damage. Throw in a giant crocodile or two and the result is the major adversaries prevented from taking any actions while the wizard sits back and fireballs the now- leaderless mooks.

Really, every time I've tried to have enemies attack the party en masse to prevent the high-leveled characters from overpowering weaker opponents, the druid has simply summoned instant meatshield-paralyzer animals to shut down their actions.

Susano-wo
2010-11-07, 03:48 PM
I don't know what tradition has to do with it. Yes, dnd has traditionally used stat rolls. with RPGA and internet games, this started to change. With 4E they no longer use that as the standard.
with PF, they also no longer use that as the standard.
So tradition of a RNG is irrilevant in discussing either of these. Or, as I am attempting to do, talk theoretically about a design element [MAD] not being necessarily a bad thing

You said MAD=deisgn flaw. I said not necessarily. I used 4E as an example of the sort of branching you can do with MAD, and used a highly abstract Monk variant concept as an example of how a specifcially MAD class could be ok, as long as you designed it a certain way.

You're probably right that the branching of 4th makes it so you can't focus on both, but its pretty easy to look at that system without the branching CHA and CON abilities (in the case of the barb) to see how it *could* work.
@ diremoose: do hippogryphs have some sort of awesome grappling bnonus? how exactly are they keeping the dragon grapppled? +11 vs +29 grapple mod....

Coidzor
2010-11-07, 03:51 PM
Susano-wo: Exactly. It's much more SAD unless you're doing the character wrong. Whereas if you have the option as part of the inherent class, it shouldn't be doing it wrong to make use of it.


That could pretty much describe the entirety of D&D.

Indeed! :smallbiggrin:

Dire Moose
2010-11-07, 04:14 PM
As I look back on that fight, I remember there were at least four hippogriffs and the druid had Augment Summoning, giving each one a +12. However, I don't recall whether the dragon was actually grappled or merely surrounded with no way to get out of the circle of hippogriffs. As all of them were airborne, the dragon would either have had to keep flying forward (resulting in multiple AoOs) or stop moving and take falling damage.

All this is especially worrying as the next session this Thursday involves an advanced mature adult black dragon, and I figure hippogriff spam will have to be dealt with again.

Last Laugh
2010-11-07, 04:24 PM
In my campaign, I've rarely seen a problem with Wildshape, but druids are broken well enough anyway.

The druid in the campaign I'm running rarely uses Wildshape, but has proved to be a major annoyance due to ridiculous overuse of Summon Nature's Ally and his mastery of grappling. Oh, and he now uses Animal Growth with the above to cause even greater headaches.

For much of the middle portion of the campaign (levels 5-9) he's relied on the "Hippogriff Spam" technique to pretty much shut down anything I've thrown at the party. Against both an Erinyes assassin serving as a major villain and a juvenile red dragon blocking the party's way through the mountains, he's summoned tons of hippogriffs to grapple and pin them, causing them to crash while in flight and preventing them from even moving toward the party without taking a ridiculous amount of AoO damage. Throw in a giant crocodile or two and the result is the major adversaries prevented from taking any actions while the wizard sits back and fireballs the now- leaderless mooks.

Really, every time I've tried to have enemies attack the marty en masse to prevent the high-leveled characters from overpowering weaker opponents, the druid has simply summoned instant meatshield-paralyzer animals to shut down their actions.
If only Magic Circle Against Neutral was a spell :smallsigh:

Also, as I was googling ways to dismiss summons the first suggestion after 'ways to' was 'ways to say I love you' made me fuzzy inside.

Coidzor
2010-11-07, 04:30 PM
Breath-weapon kiting, counter-spelling, AMF and eating them because it's a dragon and still more hardcore than they'll ever be in an AMF... Flying away and letting the summons run out because they can't catch the dragon at all and end up a net waste of spells...

Might want to start up a thread asking about dragon tactics.

WarKitty
2010-11-07, 04:31 PM
As a general rule, use AoE spells if he's summoning repeatedly. Damage to everything at once.

Susano-wo
2010-11-07, 04:31 PM
As I look back on that fight, I remember there were at least four hippogriffs and the druid had Augment Summoning, giving each one a +12. However, I don't recall whether the dragon was actually grappled or merely surrounded with no way to get out of the circle of hippogriffs. As all of them were airborne, the dragon would either have had to keep flying forward (resulting in multiple AoOs) or stop moving and take falling damage.

All this is especially worrying as the next session this Thursday involves an advanced mature adult black dragon, and I figure hippogriff spam will have to be dealt with again.

try snatch. The dragon can easily grap the one in front of him. or he can fly...um, up? yeah probaly doesn't have perfect maneuverability, but still. hell, they probably can't even hit him with their AoO

also, don't hippogryffs have a 5ft reach? means they have to eat an AoO before even attacking him.
Oh!:smallbiggrin: try on improved trip for size. a tripped flyer falls. flavor it as him batting them out of the sky. damn, I would kil to see that ^ ^

ScionoftheVoid
2010-11-07, 04:57 PM
As I look back on that fight, I remember there were at least four hippogriffs and the druid had Augment Summoning, giving each one a +12. However, I don't recall whether the dragon was actually grappled or merely surrounded with no way to get out of the circle of hippogriffs. As all of them were airborne, the dragon would either have had to keep flying forward (resulting in multiple AoOs) or stop moving and take falling damage.

All this is especially worrying as the next session this Thursday involves an advanced mature adult black dragon, and I figure hippogriff spam will have to be dealt with again.

Hover feat and spellcasting. Learn them, love them, use them.

Dire Moose
2010-11-07, 05:03 PM
I'll have to do some research on AMF, as the dragon using it on :vaarsuvius: was Ancient and had class levels in sorc beyond that. Still, even if a CL 6 dragon could cast it, there's nothing to stop summons originating outside the AMF and flying in.

Improved Trip was something I hadn't considered and will probably use.

AoE spells... I actually had dismissed that previously because most were low-level enough that the party could shrug them off, but this could really screw over summoned creatures. That is an idea I'll definitely put to use.

I've already implemented Snatch.

As for the dragon flying away, the reason the characters are fighting it is because they need a magical artifact in its hoard. If the dragon retreats, the PCs get the artifact and thus win.

Also, I've previously allowed flying creatures to be summoned in midair, which is likely not allowed in RAW. But since I've permitted it in the past, I'm not sure I should suddenly change previously-established convention.

EDIT: Oh, yes. I did give this dragon Hover to prevent the "keep-going-or-crash" problem.

Coidzor
2010-11-07, 05:11 PM
I'll have to do some research on AMF, as the dragon using it on :vaarsuvius: was Ancient and had class levels in sorc beyond that. Still, even if a CL 6 dragon could cast it, there's nothing to stop summons originating outside the AMF and flying in.

Being on top of the caster generally helps with that.


Improved Trip was something I hadn't considered and will probably use.

Hell, don't even need improved trip with superior reach and size.


As for the dragon flying away, the reason the characters are fighting it is because they need a magical artifact in its hoard. If the dragon retreats, the PCs get the artifact and thus win.

Running away for a minute for summons to disappear is a net win as long as they don't do enough damage to the beast, which they shouldn't since those hippogriffs have a +8 to hit with their AoO. Then they come back.

Actually, on an adult red dragon, hippogriffs can't hit on anything other than a nat 20.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-11-07, 05:12 PM
Also, I've previously allowed flying creatures to be summoned in midair, which is likely not allowed in RAW. But since I've permitted it in the past, I'm not sure I should suddenly change prevoiusly-established convention.

I'd say it wouldn't be unreasonable to have looked through the rules for the Conjuration school and stumbled upon this little gem (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm) (under Conjuration, obviously. Being able to fly may count as having the air support you, but I doubt it, and it's your decision that matters).

nedz
2010-11-07, 05:55 PM
The standard trick with summoned critters is to ignore them.

The Dragon you describe flies at 150', whilst the Hippogrif can only manage 100'

So Dragon approaches, Druid summons a Hippogrif, Dragon flies right past it and attacks the party: Hippogrif gets 1x AoO as they cross.

Now a Dragon sat upon its horde is vulnerable, but Dragons are smart and know this: so this is unlikely to occur, yes ?

The Dragon should have invested time and trouble in providing an early warning, and it should be pro-active in its defence, and this means it will choose the ground on which to fight. Dragons which don't do this tend not to live very long.

Good Dragon tactics involve use of their fast flight speed.
Some (but by no means all) options:
- Circling the party at a distance, if they have ranged attacks. This is good for suspense.
-Appearing, and then flying off again for half an hour to weaken the defences. Doing this a few times will make the final attack less risky as the party will not have bothered to waste their buff spells. A few dummy run attacks is good for this also. This also adds to the suspense.
- Approach using dead ground after a long distance look. This is known as a pop-up attack.
- Diving into the group, snatching up one character, before flying off with their lunch (which they might drop a few times - from a reasonable height)

Have fun :smallwink:

Coidzor
2010-11-07, 06:08 PM
Wait, dead ground? What's that exactly?

Dire Moose
2010-11-07, 06:15 PM
An early warning system is easy enough. There's a group of kobolds skulking around in parts of the surrounding ruins that the dragon could have allowed to live specifically so they'll scream when adventurers show up.

Tael
2010-11-07, 07:19 PM
The standard trick with summoned critters is to ignore them.

The Dragon you describe flies at 150', whilst the Hippogrif can only manage 100'

So Dragon approaches, Druid summons a Hippogrif, Dragon flies right past it and attacks the party: Hippogrif gets 1x AoO as they cross.

Now a Dragon sat upon its horde is vulnerable, but Dragons are smart and know this: so this is unlikely to occur, yes ?

The Dragon should have invested time and trouble in providing an early warning, and it should be pro-active in its defence, and this means it will choose the ground on which to fight. Dragons which don't do this tend not to live very long.

Good Dragon tactics involve use of their fast flight speed.
Some (but by no means all) options:
- Circling the party at a distance, if they have ranged attacks. This is good for suspense.
-Appearing, and then flying off again for half an hour to weaken the defences. Doing this a few times will make the final attack less risky as the party will not have bothered to waste their buff spells. A few dummy run attacks is good for this also. This also adds to the suspense.
- Approach using dead ground after a long distance look. This is known as a pop-up attack.
- Diving into the group, snatching up one character, before flying off with their lunch (which they might drop a few times - from a reasonable height)

Have fun :smallwink:

So, you think summoned monsters aren't bad because dragons, one of the most versatile creatures in the game, can deal with them? :smallconfused:
What is the Fighter doing?

Tytalus
2010-11-07, 07:51 PM
Say, the BBEG wizard is attacked by the typical 4-member party. Do you think he'll do an area dispel against the party or even a targeted dispel only against the fighter? That would be his action for the turn, after which the (slightly debuffed) party would have reach him and likeyl defeat him with their four actions.


I'm not sure what kind of games you are playing, but opening a battle with a dispel magic is a very sound tactic, especially if you have allies to exploit that advantage. Certainly much better than using a third-rate direct damage spell like lightning bolt. In high level (or even epic) games, it becomes a virtual necessity to (greater) dispel / disjunct, since everyone remotely clever is buffed to high heavens.

It's particularly useful against PCs that are using the tactics you usually recommend, such as monks buffing themselves with (partially charged) wands - the low caster level of their buffs pretty much guarantees the dispelling to be successful.

Tehnar
2010-11-07, 08:04 PM
Throw a couple of reciprocal gyre spells at those heavily buffed monstrosities and watch their reactions.

Also when dealing with pure druids, dispel is a very handy tool. Druids have more difficulty raising their caster levels then clerics and wizards, so a dispel will more likely hurt them.

Runestar
2010-11-07, 11:14 PM
Say, the BBEG wizard is attacked by the typical 4-member party. Do you think he'll do an area dispel against the party or even a targeted dispel only against the fighter? That would be his action for the turn, after which the (slightly debuffed) party would have reach him and likeyl defeat him with their four actions.

I would indeed open up with a dispel magic (and at higher lvs, chain dispel). In terms of taxing the party's resources, nothing is more efficient than stripping them of their buffs (which they would have cast from slots or consumables). This also softens them up for the other enemies to better attack them.

Naturally, I would never pit a lone wizard against a party. He will definitely have tanks/summons to hold off the party for a few rounds, as well as tons of hp to take a few hits (say a frost giant wiz15 would be cr17 and have 300+ hp).

Marnath
2010-11-07, 11:52 PM
I would indeed open up with a dispel magic (and at higher lvs, chain dispel). In terms of taxing the party's resources, nothing is more efficient than stripping them of their buffs (which they would have cast from slots or consumables). This also softens them up for the other enemies to better attack them.

Naturally, I would never pit a lone wizard against a party. He will definitely have tanks/summons to hold off the party for a few rounds, as well as tons of hp to take a few hits (say a frost giant wiz15 would be cr17 and have 300+ hp).

A level 15 frost giant wizard is cr 24. :smallconfused:

Mystic Muse
2010-11-07, 11:54 PM
A level 15 frost giant wizard is cr 24. :smallconfused:

The point remains however.dispel magic against a group of PCs is in fact a good idea.

senrath
2010-11-07, 11:56 PM
A level 15 frost giant wizard is cr 24. :smallconfused:

No, it's CR 17. 9 (base) + 7 (14 non-associated levels) + 1 (1 associated level).

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-11-07, 11:58 PM
Dispel is absolutely one of the best things to toss around.

Your typical party generally has things like GMW/MV/etc... on them. If they know they need it, they'll probably also have buffs to protect against Fail conditions, like Death Ward and Freedom of Movement.

Dispelling them removes Immunity to Loose and also reduces both their ability to hurt you (or rather, your mooks, because no caster over level 5 is going to allow any melee character to close with them), and increases your ability to hurt them.

It's kind of like Haste vs Fireball argument. On average, you'll get more damage output out of a Haste than out of a Fireball, from the extra damage the extra attacks create. Same concept, dropping their buffs increases your mooks odds of landing a blow, and makes your mooks last longer as well, plus renders them vulnerable to *your* Save or Loose type spells.

Chain Dispel + Quickened Slow/Stinking Cloud = good times.


No, it's CR 17. 9 (base) + 7 (14 non-associated levels) + 1 (1 associated level).

Allowing Wizard levels to be considered non-associated makes the CR chart cry.

senrath
2010-11-08, 12:07 AM
Allowing Wizard levels to be considered non-associated makes the CR chart cry.

Meh. I just use it as an example why you shouldn't go just by CR when designing encounters.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-11-08, 12:13 AM
Also, Greater Dispel Magic has a cap of +20. If the fighter has access to 8th level spells, the Druid surely has access to 6th levels spells that he can actually cast himself. As he's a divine caster, he doesn't need to UMD a Bead of Karma, so it's pathetically easy to jack up his CL to the point where he can strip every buff fairly easily.

While still being a Dire Bear and eating everyone's face off

While still having a Fleshraker animal companion dishing out over 20d6 per attack with Venomfire and Animal Growth

While still having the summoned monsters appear in the squares around the opponent casters so they provoke AoO while casting unless they try to cast on the defensive

So yea... having an 8th level fighter get buffed by a 15th level character makes him almost as strong as a single class feature of the druid. Almost. But unless your name is Aragorn, the odds of a high-level wizard being both available and willing to cast on a low-level fighter's behalf is fairly minimal, considering 15th level wizards are supposed to be as rare as partially-charged wands...

Marnath
2010-11-08, 12:22 AM
Allowing Wizard levels to be considered non-associated makes the CR chart cry.

I agree anything tier1 or 2 should never be non-associated due the the power inherent in the class. It doesn't matter if a giant is normally a melee brute, add 15 levels of wizard and that stops mattering.

But generally CR is something to be ignored by anyone who knows anything about encounter designing, so meh.

Runestar
2010-11-08, 01:04 AM
A level 15 frost giant wizard is cr 24. :smallconfused:
Hey, if Age of Worms can do it (they had a frost giant sorc16 npc who was cr18), so can I. :smallamused:

bokodasu
2010-11-08, 08:37 AM
One other thing about summons that you are probably remembering but people seem to forget a lot so I feel obligated to mention it - they're full-round casting times. Dragons can do lots of things to interrupt druids. (Heck, minions can do lots of things to interrupt druids. Everything's better with minions.) At the very least, the bad guys get a turn before there are any summons at all.

And you can't summon things in midair, as per the Conjuration rules pointed out earlier. (Unless you're summoning something lighter than air, I suppose; helium golem?)

Urpriest
2010-11-08, 09:07 AM
I agree anything tier1 or 2 should never be non-associated due the the power inherent in the class. It doesn't matter if a giant is normally a melee brute, add 15 levels of wizard and that stops mattering.

But generally CR is something to be ignored by anyone who knows anything about encounter designing, so meh.

But that's the whole point. Casting classes are non-associated because a low-level caster isn't particularly useful against high level threats. Sure, it adds some buffs, but at that level WBL is adding more. A Warblade 18/Wizard 2 is not much more powerful than a Warblade 18, since at that level Wizard 2 doesn't do anything. Similarly, non-associated class levels exist so that a monster can have spells that could actually be relevant to the encounter. The guy is still two caster levels behind, which on a player is generally only worth it if you're gishing or the like. It's really quite reasonable. Stuff like swordsage being non-associated is actually much more broken.

elpollo
2010-11-08, 11:47 AM
I do not see any problem in getting permanent buffs and equipment from npcs. After all, a wizard also gets his food, clothes, spell components and pages and ink for his book from somebody else.

... this is the weakest argument for reliance on other classes by casters and non-casters that I have ever seen.

Sir Giacomo
2010-11-08, 12:43 PM
... this is the weakest argument for reliance on other classes by casters and non-casters that I have ever seen.

Really? What are the stronger arguments then?

- Giacomo

backpackjack
2010-11-08, 01:29 PM
I've never thought about Druids using Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic like the quotes below. Could someone explain to me how this works, why it works, why its a good tactic, and how to improve its effectiveness? Sorry to be a numbskull here, but I figured the boards could help me get my wits about me.


I'm not sure what kind of games you are playing, but opening a battle with a dispel magic is a very sound tactic, especially if you have allies to exploit that advantage. Certainly much better than using a third-rate direct damage spell like lightning bolt. In high level (or even epic) games, it becomes a virtual necessity to (greater) dispel / disjunct, since everyone remotely clever is buffed to high heavens.

It's particularly useful against PCs that are using the tactics you usually recommend, such as monks buffing themselves with (partially charged) wands - the low caster level of their buffs pretty much guarantees the dispelling to be successful.

I would indeed open up with a dispel magic (and at higher lvs, chain dispel). In terms of taxing the party's resources, nothing is more efficient than stripping them of their buffs (which they would have cast from slots or consumables). This also softens them up for the other enemies to better attack them.


Dispel is absolutely one of the best things to toss around.

Your typical party generally has things like GMW/MV/etc... on them. If they know they need it, they'll probably also have buffs to protect against Fail conditions, like Death Ward and Freedom of Movement.

Dispelling them removes Immunity to Loose and also reduces both their ability to hurt you (or rather, your mooks, because no caster over level 5 is going to allow any melee character to close with them), and increases your ability to hurt them.

It's kind of like Haste vs Fireball argument. On average, you'll get more damage output out of a Haste than out of a Fireball, from the extra damage the extra attacks create. Same concept, dropping their buffs increases your mooks odds of landing a blow, and makes your mooks last longer as well, plus renders them vulnerable to *your* Save or Loose type spells.

Chain Dispel + Quickened Slow/Stinking Cloud = good times.

LordBlades
2010-11-08, 02:01 PM
I've never thought about Druids using Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic like the quotes below. Could someone explain to me how this works, why it works, why its a good tactic, and how to improve its effectiveness? Sorry to be a numbskull here, but I figured the boards could help me get my wits about me.

Actually, it's not a very good tactic. There are a huge number of ways to protect against various dispel effects that a BBEG doesn't stand a too good chance hurting the party with a dispel.

Rings of counterspell, spellblades, spell turning effects, CL increases to practically undispellable levels (the DMM cleric in my current group currently casts his buffs at +10 caster level).

Moreover, even if you do manage to get an even chance of dispelling, it's still not a very effective way to use your standard action in a game that's all about action economy.

If you use targeted dispel, you have spent a standard action to remove about half of the buffs from a single target. With the same action you could have cast an AOE battlefield control spell that would have severely inconvenienced the whole party.

Area dispel gives you a chance to remove 1 buff from everybody in range, which more often that not might end up to be of no consequence for that battle.

Boci
2010-11-08, 02:11 PM
Really? What are the stronger arguments then?

- Giacomo

Ones that do not envolve equating a permenant buff to clothes?

Logalmier
2010-11-08, 05:07 PM
Really? What are the stronger arguments then?

- Giacomo

One that doesn't rely on npcs casting broken spells that you might not even get?

tyckspoon
2010-11-08, 06:41 PM
Actually, it's not a very good tactic. There are a huge number of ways to protect against various dispel effects that a BBEG doesn't stand a too good chance hurting the party with a dispel.

There are also a pretty large number of ways to buff a dispel check, and an Area dispel will ignore anything that protects against targeted effects. Something as simple as being a CL or two above the party's average level (the BBEG bonus) and carrying a Dispelling Cord can put the dispel check at +6 over the party. Which would be -4 in comparison to your mentioned Cleric.. which is close enough to test it on the dice and have pretty good chances of taking down something.


Area dispel gives you a chance to remove 1 buff from everybody in range, which more often that not might end up to be of no consequence for that battle.

It also tests against every object, which makes an Area dispel a very good tactic against a party that uses the Magic Weapon/Magic Vestments tactic; you can strip up to three buffs from everybody (1 actually on the person, 1 on their weapon, 1 on their armor. 1 more if they go in for shields.) That's potentially a very efficient debuff, especially if the party caster(s) don't do heavy-duty CL optimization.