CR Check - powerful 'orcs'

[Kantolin]

Essentially, I'm changing orcs (and half-orcs) in a setting I'm making, and I'm looking for input on how powerful it is.

I'm not actually planning on putting a level adjustment on it, but I'm curious, were I to do so, what the LA would be(ish) and what the approximate CR boost should be.

Also, I know many of the advantages given by most LA (Such as flight) become significantly less and less valuable as you increase in levels, so I'm mostly looking at the 5-15 range in the middle. I do not care in the slightest about levels below 5 as the PCs will not be there, I care only mildly about levels above 15 as things get a bit out of whack then regardless.

The party is outrageously low-optimization. We have wizards who throw little other than fireball that only become empowered when you have 5th level spells to empower them, and the weapon focus line is frequently taken, and we're really hesitant towards Tome of Battle. I'd guesstimate most characters come in somewhere around tier 4, whether due to intent (me) or coincidence, while some hop up to 3 or 2 once in awhile.

And, uh, if this is in the wrong area then I can move it. ^_^ It's not really intended as homebrew material, as I'm not really looking towards 'Rate my homebrew', I'm just trying to find out how strong it is.

~~
(Half)Orcs in this setting that are below level 5 get an additional 5d8 hit points. Whatever base attack bonus they get for those first five levels is erased, and they all have a base attack bonus of +5.

For every level after 5, (Half)orcs gain an additional 1d8 hit points, although their base attack bonus then becomes normal for the class. So a level 7 orc commoner has 7d8 + 7d4 + (con*7) hit points.

Orcs, and certain half-orcs, gain a -4 penalty to saving throws against magic. Abilities that normally would negate damage on a successful/failed save (Such as evasion, or mettle) instead give a +4 bonus to saving throws against magic they apply against (thus negating their penalty; you can't get a bonus out of having more than one). At every level, magic and alchemy deals orcs (And expressly not half-orcs) double damage.

Orcs are then extremely rarely capable of being spellcasters (Or manifesters, or shadowcasters, or binders, or truenamers). Half-orcs are significantly more likely to become spellcasters, but there are a heck of a lot fewer of them. Whenever there is a (half)orc spellcaster, they learn the ability to bolster a wide area against magic, thus when people are fighting these orcs, step one is to take out their spellcasters, step two is to blow up the remainder.

[A probably easier way of looking at it is that (half)orcs get a free gestalt with Warrior for their first 5 levels, and after that gain +1d8hp/level. Orcs (and some half-orcs) have a -4 to saves vs magic, and take double damage from magic).]

So about how useful would you peg that? Stat modifiers are the same, and they have an out-of-combat fast healing, but that's not at all relevant for the balance I'm looking at. Both orcs (With their weakness to magic), and half-orcs (Without it). Remember! Tier 4 at best, and outrageously unoptimized! I'm the only one who makes level 1 wizards without magic missile, and the only one who uses solid fog.

I then particularly like the resulting feel from a setting point of view, where each and every orc is as tough as an extremely talented human, but that's neither here nor there either. ^_^

[Runestar]

I would recommend using tanarruks as a base (races or monsters of faerun). They are essentially tiefling-orcs - 5 outsider HD, sr and some misc features, at cr2.

So your power-orcs could be similar to adding class lvs on top of a tanarruk, albeit losing sr, gaining magic vulnerability, loss of skill points and some hp from con.

The bab part confuses me. You mean that an orc wiz1 also has bab of +5?

Otherwise, your creation seems too variable to allow for a one-size-fits-all cr guideline.

[Claudius Maximus]

I think you're better off just giving them 5 monstrous humanoid hit dice and a constitution boost. And the magic penalty as a racial feature. At that point their ECL will be +5 (LA would be unnecessary) and their CR will probably be in the neighborhood of 2 or 3, subject to increases with class levels.

If you're thinking of adding these things without an ECL boost, it strikes me as a bit strong.

[Coidzor]

Whenever there is a (half)orc spellcaster, they learn the ability to bolster a wide area against magic

What do you actually mean by this. Does this apply to orcs and half-orcs that take any and all spellcasting classes?


Orcs, and certain half-orcs, gain a -4 penalty to saving throws against magic. Abilities that normally would negate damage on a successful/failed save (Such as evasion, or mettle) instead give a +4 bonus to saving throws against magic they apply against (thus negating their penalty; you can't get a bonus out of having more than one).


This is a significant nerf and break from the system, FWIW. Also, you need to clarify what is meant by certain half-orcs if it doesn't blanket apply to all of them.

Worse, the nerf only applies to certain classes that wouldn't be associated with the races in question anyway...


At every level, magic and alchemy deals orcs (And expressly not half-orcs) double damage.

Just say "Orcs take double damage from magical and alchemical sources." That already means it doesn't apply to half-orcs.


Also, is this for players or for NPCs only? :smallconfused:

[Kantolin]

I would recommend using tanarruks as a base (races or monsters of faerun). They are essentially tiefling-orcs - 5 outsider HD, sr and some misc features, at cr2.

I will definitely look there, thank you.


The bab part confuses me. You mean that an orc wiz1 also has bab of +5?

That is exactly what I'm suggesting. Said wizard also has 5d8+1d4+con hit points.

But I'm not looking at balance below level 5. The statement for below level 5 is basically a worldsetting sort of thing - namely, seeing 'An orc!' is in the same concept of seeing 'A troll!' in that this thing can take a sword to the torso and keep walking.


Otherwise, your creation seems too variable to allow for a one-size-fits-all cr guideline.

That's what I was afraid of.


I think you're better off just giving them 5 monstrous humanoid hit dice and a constitution boost. And the magic penalty as a racial feature. At that point their ECL will be +5 (LA would be unnecessary) and their CR will probably be in the neighborhood of 2 or 3, subject to increases with class levels.

The trouble is that I didn't want an... uh, say Orc Fighter 1 having a BAB of 6, for example. But it is basically that - gestalt is a good analysis.

But I suppose that my method is a touch worse than just giving them 5 HD, so that's a good ballpark for analysing CR, actually. ^_^ Thank you.


If you're thinking of adding these things without an ECL boost, it strikes me as a bit strong.


Also, is this for players or for NPCs only? :smallconfused:

Answering both of these at once:
I am aware that this is strong - I was primarily looking at a simple method of 'These orcs are about CR+2-3' more than anything else, and about what level adjustment.

It's intended for both PCs and NPCs. The LA function of the question is because I'm intending on doing similar for other races, and was trying to find whereabouts it's balanced (I'd like half-orcs to end up slightly stronger, but it's a bit rough to judge where that point is, thus I asked for help of the collective consciousness of the internet ^_^)


What do you actually mean by this. Does this apply to orcs and half-orcs that take any and all spellcasting classes?

I apologize for being unclear there... orcish 'spellcasters' can bolster a group (say, 30ish) such that said magic weakness doesn't exist.

Functionally, when they have a caster, their magic vulnerability is nonexistant.


This is a significant nerf and break from the system, FWIW.

Worse, the nerf only applies to certain classes that wouldn't be associated with the races in question anyway...

Even at tier-four levels of power? :smallconfused:

The schtick is, orcs without a spellcaster are ripped up by magic, and orcs by default frequently lack a spellcaster.

This includes orcish rogues and orcish hexblades, as the solution to an orcish rogue, just like everything else, is to fireball it.


Also, you need to clarify what is meant by certain half-orcs if it doesn't blanket apply to all of them.

I apologize there too - that will become clear in plot. At the beginning of the story, it effects all orcs and half-orcs as far as anyone is aware, and it will eventually be revealed that certain half-orcs, but not others, lack the weakness. More and more examples will come up, and generally it involves 'I am quite content with being part-human part-orcish and not picking one or the other', as well as more plot involved.

In short: It will be obvious in the game.


Just say "Orcs take double damage from magical and alchemical sources." That already means it doesn't apply to half-orcs.

But half-orcs have only two racial features at all, darkvision, and:


•Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.


:smallconfused: So if 'Orcs take double damage from...' then so would half-orcs?

Either way, I now have a ballpark of +2 or +3 to the CR, although not much on the level adjustment. The extra hit points is clearly not worth five levels, so I can't fathom it at +5LA. Should the +2-3 work there too?

[Coidzor]

Rogues are tier 4. Monks are tier 5. Both get evasion as class features at level 2. You cause orcs and half-orcs to lose one of their iconic and more valuable class features in exchange for a eliminating their penalty versus spells, whereas an orc or half-orc simply being a spellcaster automatically eliminates that penalty for himself and anyone else within 30 feet.

This is a significant nerf to any individuals in these classes. However, it doesn't do anything to Orky McBarbarian unless he wants to waste gold on a ring of evasion that won't work for him.


:smallconfused: So if 'Orcs take double damage from...' then so would half-orcs?

No, because the effects don't say "Orcs take double damage from this," what you have instead is "Orcs: take double damage from X, Y, and Z" which is in the Orc entry and only refers to orcs.

Now, an Orcbane longsword or something, I believe that would also act as bane against a half-orc.

Or a longspear that has magical powers but only in the hands of an orc? A half-orc would be able to get it to work.

[Runestar]

Or let's take another look at its stats.

lv1 - 5d8+1d10+con (30hp), +5bab. Comparable to a tanarruk and better than a bugbear, so cr2 (because I don't think bugbear should be cr2). However, it loses sr and gains magic vulnerability, but I am not sure if this is enough to merit a decrease in cr.

lv2-5 - hp increases, additional abilities from class lvs, but bab remains the same. +1 Cr probably.

lv6+ - nothing much going for it apart from a little extra bab for casters/rogues, and extra hp of 4.5*HD. Given the magic vulnerability (which should become more significant at higher lvs, as magic becomes more prevalent, optimized caster or not), I would say this negates the extra hp. No cr increase, or maybe even a cr penalty?

[Coidzor]

let's see, how the BAB would workpoor BAB... Something weird between cleric and wizard BAB.

In the first case, just picks up normal wizard progression +1 at every even level. In the second case it treats 6th level as 1st due to the demi-gestalt. I'm pretty sure even by how it's been phrased things are still in the realm of the first case though.

1 +5
2 +5
3 +5
4 +5
5 +5
6 +6/1(?) or +5
7 +6/1
8 +7/2
9 7/2
10 8/3
11 8/3
12 9/4
13 9/4
14 10/5
15 10/5
16 11/6/1
17 11/6/1
18 12/7/2
19 12/7/2
20 13/8/3 or +12/7/2

medium BAB
1-5 +5
6 +6/1 or +5
7 +7/2
8 +8/3
9 +8/3
10 +9/4
11 +10/5
12 +11/6/1
13 +11/6/1
14 +12/7/2
15 +13/8/3
16 +14/9/4
17 +14/9/4
18 +15/10/5
19 +16/11/6/1
20 +17/12/7/2 or +16/+11/+6/+1

good BAB: no change.

[Kantolin]

You cause orcs and half-orcs to lose one of their iconic and more valuable class features... This is a significant nerf to any individuals in these classes.

I suppose that's true. My fear is more of an enemy orc rogue dodging a fireball than halting the PC's abilities, but this is a valid point. Consider that struck.




Given the magic vulnerability (which should become more significant at higher lvs, as magic becomes more prevalent, optimized caster or not), I would say this negates the extra hp. No cr increase, or maybe even a cr penalty?

Interesting. I hadn't thought it'd be nearly that focal - I've been through a bit of high level play, albeit mostly with my own group (which as stated, is very poor at optimization, which is more fun for all of us).

Perhaps I'm underestimating the weakness.


let's see, how the BAB would work

Thank you - that's a very helpful analysis, and I feel a little silly for not thinking of it myself. ^_^

So hrm. It seems the magic vulnerability may be more severe than it seemed, then, and there seems to be hesitance for 'evasion doesn't negate this drawback'. I suppose I can handwave 'why aren't more orcs rogues' too... hrm.

Thanks again for the comments. ^_^

[Runestar]

Interesting. I hadn't thought it'd be nearly that focal - I've been through a bit of high level play, albeit mostly with my own group (which as stated, is very poor at optimization, which is more fun for all of us).


In my own limited higher lv gameplay experience, magic has been integral in softening the enemies up so our fighters can whack away at them with minimal fear of reprisals.

You will be amazed at how seemingly innocuous spells like slow (heightened) continue to remain useful even at higher lvs and can screw around with melee foes by depriving them of full attacks (and quite a number of foes in the MM rely on a large number of natural attacks for their DPR), to cite an example.

That such spells allow for saves is about the only thing preventing my party from simply ad-libbing our way through every encounter. A penalty to saves is simply hammering the final nail into the proverbial coffin, IMO.:smalltongue:

[The Glyphstone]

It sounds like a mildly jacked-up version of gestalting Orc class levels with Monstrous Humanoid HD.

For the HD thing, make the math so much easier on yourself. A d8 hit die corresponds to 4.5 average, so instead of Orcs gaining 1d8+Con+1dwhatever HP, just give them a +8 Con modifier and -4 racial penalty to Fortitude saves. It's a little clunky, but better than somehow quasi-hypergestalting.

And rather than mess with BAB, a massive sacred cow and balancing hingepoint rolled into one, just say "An orc with a BAB of less than +5 treats his BAB as +5 when making any attack roll." Sort of Practiced-Spellcaster-for-Warriors as a racial ability.