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Grynning
2010-11-04, 11:30 PM
Ok, so I recently bought MoI because it was 8 dollars, and I like the book overall, thought I'm not sure if it will get any use from my group. I'm a bit confused about something though - I often see people talk about the redonkulousness of totemist natural attacks and how you can get like 20 of them out of the class. However, reading it carefully, I can't really figure out how this is possible. All the soulmelds that grant natural attacks only do so if bound to the totem chakra, and you can only have one bound at a time (the double meld feature just lets you bind a meld to your totem and one other chakra, from what I can tell) - this means at most, the class is giving you 2 natural attacks (either two claws or a bite) at a time. So while the class is definitely good, I don't see how it's omgwtfbbq as some have led me to believe.

So, Playground, enlighten me - how does Totemist get ridiculous?
Also, what are some fun ways to build one? I may use one as a villain in my upcoming game.

Toptomcat
2010-11-05, 12:20 AM
Girallon Arms plus the Double Chakra feat plus any other soulmeld that grants natural weapons bound to your totem chakra, plus Sphinx Claws for Pounce, plus Totem Avatar (shoulders) for a size increase over and above Improved Natural Attack, is a good start at things. Plus Cobalt Charge if you feel like being cruel.

Things totemists are good at/potential villain builds: Lots of natural attacks (as above), grappling (Girallon Arms + Expanded Soulmeld Capacity), getting lots of ranged attacks and flying back into cover the same round (Manticore Belt soulmeld), tossing save-or-loses at you every round (Basilisk Mask+adjacent ally and others), having access to the earliest-level effective teleportation effect in the game (Blink Shirt), synergizing very well with monsters that also have some of their strengths. A Fang Dragon totemist would be pretty terrifying.

Edge
2010-11-05, 02:54 AM
The builds that have a load of natural attacks normally include a race that some anyway - I know the Totemist handbook is pretty big on warforged with the Second Slam feat.

Zapato
2010-11-05, 07:41 AM
I read somewhere that you can do some crazy cheese by combining Totemist with Artificer. Not sure how though, and you'd better be prepared to give your DM a splitting headache because the rules are not user friendly in this build :smallcool:.

Psyren
2010-11-05, 07:55 AM
Sinfire's Totemist Handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2943.0)

Return with questions

Master_Rahl22
2010-11-05, 10:30 AM
Yes, for loads of natural attacks you have to start as a race that gets them. A Warforged with Second Slam and Jaws of Death has 3 natural attacks before shaping any soulmelds. Double Chakra lets you bind two soulmelds to the same chakra, so you pick Totem and rock Girallon Arms plus something else. Dragon Magic has one that I'm pretty sure is called Dragon Tail that gives you a tail attack. So our Warforged is now looking at 10 natural attacks with 3 feats and 3 soulmelds.

Definitely look over Sinfire's guide, lots of useful stuff in there.

Person_Man
2010-11-05, 10:47 AM
This list should help you:

Unbound

Claws of the Wyrm: Gain 2 claw attacks. Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with the claws. Requires Dragonblood subtype. Dragon Magic (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4).

Chaos Roc's Span: Gain 2 wing buffet attacks. They deal non-lethal damage unless bound to your Shoulders, which also adds a Save or Daze effect (mind effecting). Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with your wings. Dragon Magazine 350 pg 87.

Dragon Tail: Gain a tail attack. Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with the tail. The tail doesn't threaten unless it's bound to your Waist though, and then it also gains reach (which is handy for AoO combos). Requires Dragonblood subtype. Dragon Magic (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4).

Mantle of Flame (Incarnate): Anyone striking you (except for enemies using a manufactured reach weapon standing more then 5 ft away) take 1d6 Fire damage plus an additional +1d6 for each point of essentia invested in it. Magic of Incarnum pg 78.


Totem

Ankheg Breastplate: Gain a Bite attack. Each point of essentia invested in it adds 1d4 Acid damage. Magic of Incarnum pg 57.

Behir Gorget: Gain a Bite attack. Each point of essentia invested in it adds 1d4 Electricity damage. Magic of Incarnum pg 60.

Blood Talons: Gain 2 claw attacks. Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit with the claws. Magic of Incarnum pg 61.

Brass Mane: Gain a bite attack. Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with your bite. Magic of Incarnum pg 62.

Displacer Mantle: As a full round action you can make 2 tentacle attacks. They have +5 reach and a +1 bonus to damage per point of essentia invested in them. But because it's a full round action and not an attack action, you can't combine it with other attacks. And you explicitly cannot make attacks of opportunity with them. Some DMs will be nice and will let you use them as secondary attacks. If they don't, I'd skip it entirely. Tome of Magic pg 64.

Dragonfire Mask: Gain a Swift Action Frightful Presence, with a duration dependent upon the amount of essentia invested in it. Dragon Magic (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4).

Girallon Arms: Gain 4 claw attacks. Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with the claws. Magic of Incarnum pg 68.

Gorgon Mask: Gain a Trample attack. Trample is ridiculously useful in certain combats at low levels, where 1 hit can kill many enemies. But at higher levels it is increasingly useless. Magic of Incarnum pg 69.

Kruthik Claws: Gain 2 claw attacks. Each point of essentia invested in it adds 1d4 Acid damage. Magic of Incarnum pg 74.

Heart of Fire: Adds 1d4 * esentia fire damage to ALL natural weapons (which can include Unarmed Strikes). Magic of Incarnum pg 70.

Lamia Belt: Gain 2 claw attacks in your "lower section" (basically an extra set of legs). So unlike most other claw attacks, the Lamia belt does not require you to give up holding a manufactured weapon in order to use it. Magic of Incarnum pg 74.

Landshark Boots: Claws grow out of your hands and feat. Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with the claws. You can attack with the claws in your hands like normal claws. You also gain a limited (and oddly worded Standard Action) Pounce ability which lets you attack with all four claws, but not your other natural weapons. Useful at low levels, useless beyond that. Magic of Incarnum pg 76.

Phase Cloak: Gain a bite attack that also deals Poison damage. Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit with the bite. Magic of Incarnum pg 82.

Rage Claws: Gain 2 claw attacks. Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with the claws. Also, you don't take the standard -4 penalty to hit while Grappled when attacking with Rage Claws. Magic of Incarnum pg 84.

Shedu Crown: Gain a Trample attack. Magic of Incarnum pg 85.

Sphinx Claws: Gain 2 claw attacks. Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with the claws, plus a +1 bonus to Strength checks (such as Trip or Bull Rush). Magic of Incarnum pg 38.

Threefold Mask of the Chimera: Gain 3 bite attacks. But there's a very odd mechanic for how you use them, so on a normal full attack action, you're only gaining 1 bite. Magic of Incarnum pg 90.

Unicorn Horn: Gain a Gore attack. Unicorn Power (http://www.pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF103-Nice_Shirt.gif)! Each point of essentia invested in it adds a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage with the horn. Also, this soulmeld increases your Wild Empathy ability, which is an extremely useful and underused ability (as it can be used on magial beasts). Magic of Incarnum pg 91.

Winter Mask: Gain a bite attack. Each point of essentia invested in it adds 1d4 Cold damage. Magic of Incarnum pg 93.


Arms:

Girallon Arms (bound to Arms chakra): Gain the Rend ability for your pre-existing claw attack. Magic of Incarnum pg 68.


Brow

Fearsome Mask: Gives you a Gaze attack. Enemies must Save or be Shaken. It explicitly functions as a normal Gaze (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Gaze) attack, which means that it functions continuously and that enemies must Save against it every round. Unlike other Gaze attacks, it does not effect allies. And unlike most other Fear effects, enemies who successfully Save against it one round are not immune to it for 24 hours. And the soulmeld itself provides an Insight bonus to Intimidate, which can be used to Demoralize (http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-911167). And keep in mind that Fear effects stack with other Fear effects (though no effect ever stacks with itself), so if you layer on any other Fear effect, weak minded enemies will soon be running away from you (and provoking attacks of opportunity). Magic of Incarnum pg 66.


Waist

Flame Cincture (Incarnate): Provides Resistance to Fire based 10 + 5 points per essentia invested in it, and on the round after you absorb any Fire damage you can release it as an attack as a Swift Action. Wade into combat, have a friend dump a Fireball into the middle of melee, and then deal the damage again to a surviving enemy. Or better yet, have him cast a Wall of Fire. Magic of Incarnum pg 67.

Heart of Fire (again): Whenever someone hits you with a Grapple, unarmed strike, or natural weapon, they take 1d6 points of Fire damage for every point of essentia invested in this soulmeld. Manufactured weapons also take this damage (though it's divided by 50%, since it's Fire damage, and you have to worry about Hardness) essentially giving you free Sunder attacks as well. Magic of Incarnum pg 70.

Necrocarnum Vestments (Incarnate): Any living creature adjacent to you takes 1d6 Cold damage at the end of your turn. (Garbage). Magic of Incarnum pg 30.

Necrocarnum Shroud (Incarnate): Creates an aura that provides you with a minor bonus. At the beginning of your turn, anyone within the aura must Save or become Shaken. Noteworthy in that enemies who pass the Save aren't immune for 24 hours. Magic of Incarnum pg 30.


Hands

Sphinx Claws (again): Adds Pounce with all natural weapons.


Special Mention

Dread Carapace gives you a weird limited Power Attack, can add a Frightful Presence (Totem), Keen to all natural weapons (Arms), and can give you ok Spell Resistance (heart). Though I don't think any of them are worth it. Magic of Incarnum pg 70.



So while the majority of soulmelds that grant extra attacks come from your Totem chakra, not all do. Also:

Racial abilities and grafts can add natural weapons.
2 soulmelds can be bound to your Totem chakra with the Double Bind feat.
If you have a Familiar or Animal Companion, it can share your soulmelds with the Share Soulmeld feat. Go read the Familiar optimization thread, pick out your favorite friend, and think how awesome he will be with 6 extra natural attacks (or a Frightful Presence, or retributive fire damage).
Using natural weapons does not prevent you from using your normal attack routine. This includes a held manufactured weapon (which prevents you from using 1 claw attack) and/or Unarmed Strike and/or Armor Spikes, which you can also use with Two-Weapon Fighting or Multiweapon Fighting.
A Totemist gains access to lots of natural weapons very early in his progression. Rocking out 4+ attacks and Diehard at 1st level is pretty strong.
At mid levels, multi-class Totemist/Incarnate/PrC builds actually work quite well.
At higher levels, the Totemist, you do tend to top out around 8ish attacks (which is still pretty awesome). But by then you've diversified and also have your choice of weird/cool mobility powers, defenses, Skill boosts, the Swarm template (Brood Keeper's Hear, Dragon Mag 350), Ethereal Jaunt, and whatever you can borrow from the Incarnate (via the Shape Soulmeld feat).
The Totem Rager, Necrocarnate, Soulcaster, Soul Manifester, Saphire Hierarch, and Ironsoul Forgemaster are all great PrC, and add another level of abilities on top of the Totemist's soulmelds and chakra binds.

Blackfang108
2010-11-05, 11:47 AM
Yes, for loads of natural attacks you have to start as a race that gets them. A Warforged with Second Slam and Jaws of Death has 3 natural attacks before shaping any soulmelds. Double Chakra lets you bind two soulmelds to the same chakra, so you pick Totem and rock Girallon Arms plus something else. Dragon Magic has one that I'm pretty sure is called Dragon Tail that gives you a tail attack. So our Warforged is now looking at 10 natural attacks with 3 feats and 3 soulmelds.

Definitely look over Sinfire's guide, lots of useful stuff in there.

All of the Dragon Magic soulmelds require the user to either: be a dragon or be dragon blooded in some way shape or form. Half-Dragon Warforged, maybe?

Greenish
2010-11-05, 12:13 PM
All of the Dragon Magic soulmelds require the user to either: be a dragon or be dragon blooded in some way shape or form. Half-Dragon Warforged, maybe?Dragonborn. You keep the lovely, lovely subtype of "Living Construct", gain the Dragonblood subtype, and whoo +4 con.

Gametime
2010-11-05, 12:29 PM
And you really can't beat "Dragon-robot who uses the souls of all life in the universe to punch people in the face" for coolness.

Psyren
2010-11-05, 12:34 PM
And you really can't beat "Dragon-robot who uses the souls of all life in the universe to punch people in the face" for coolness.

Or better yet, make him a previously-deactivated Warforged that became reanimated by a gestalt consciousness of disembodied souls.

"We are Ermac," that kind of thing.

Person_Man
2010-11-05, 01:19 PM
Note that the draconic soulmelds are only important at low levels. At higher levels they can pretty much all be replaced with other soulmelds or moderately priced grafts.

Good Totemist racial options include the variant Kobold (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) (2 claws and bite, Sleight Build), Mongrelfolk (+4 Con), Darfellon (Bite, Swim), Warforged (immunities, slam), Duskling (essentia, move bonus), Human (bonus feat and Skills), and Dragonborn applied to certain races.

Note that changing into a dragonborn means you lose everything except for:

Types and Subtypes (so you still count as a member of your original race for feats/PrC, and you retain any abilities derived from Type or Subtype).
Ability Mods: You retain your original mods, and add +2 Con, -2 Dex on top of them.
Level Adjustment and Racial Hit Die: Can't use dragonborn to get rid of the lizardfolk/centaur/etc hit die problem.
Size and Powerful Build (if you have it).
Movement Speed and Modes (including fly, climb, swim, etc).
Languages: You don't suddenly lose the ability to talk and read.
Favored Class: You don't retroactively have XP problems.


So you lose any natural weapons, racial abilities, bonus feats, Skill bonuses, etc. Warforged lose their Slam attack, light fortification, and Composite Plating.

So good Dragonborn options for the Totemist include the Warforged, Mongrelfolk (for a total of +6 Con), Mountain Spiritfolk (retains Climb speed, which is handy at low levels), Goliath (if you're using a Knockback build), and the Dwarf (if you're specifically going into Ironsoul Forgemaster, which requires it).

Zapato
2010-11-06, 06:48 AM
I've looked over the guide and the tips mentioned. But now I'm personally interested in the effect of adding levels of artificer :smallamused:. Can't seem to find any information about it though.

Runestar
2010-11-06, 07:24 AM
Dr is going to be problematic though. Say you manage 8 natural attacks. But dr10 is going to apply 10 times, preventing 100 damage. :smallannoyed:

Person_Man
2010-11-06, 01:38 PM
Dr is going to be problematic though. Say you manage 8 natural attacks. But dr10 is going to apply 10 times, preventing 100 damage. :smallannoyed:

True. But that can be worked around.

Even with DR 10/Whatever, if you're dealing 20-40 points of damage per attack you'll still kill most enemies in 1-2 rounds. You can also bypass DR X/Whatever by acquiring DR 1/Whatever. Thus a Totemist with DR 1/Adamantine bypasses DR X/Adamantine with their natural weapons. Also, DR has no effect on your ability to Trip, Grapple, etc. And the Totemist has access to several Save or Lose effects. As long as you're not stupid enough to put all of your eggs into one basket, you'll be fine.

Greenish
2010-11-06, 01:46 PM
You can also bypass DR X/Whatever by acquiring DR 1/Whatever. Thus a Totemist with DR 1/Adamantine bypasses DR X/Adamantine with their natural weapons.I don't think that works for all DR. DR/magic or /epic allow your natural attacks count as those, but the materials don't, I'm pretty sure.

Ring of Adamantine Touch (or something to that effect) in MIC is rather cheap though.

Coidzor
2010-11-06, 01:47 PM
I don't think that works for all DR. DR/magic or /epic allow your natural attacks count as those, but the materials don't, I'm pretty sure.

Where do the rules comment on this, anyway? I've been perusing but haven't found it yet.

Greenish
2010-11-06, 01:55 PM
Where do the rules comment on this, anyway? I've been perusing but haven't found it yet.In DR entry. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction)

Godskook
2010-11-06, 02:45 PM
My last totemist:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=201155

7 natural attacks with plans to grab:
-Shocktrooper line
-Leading the charge(on myself or nearest ToB user with a free stance slot)
-Necklace of natural attacks(+1 necklace of collision
-Item of +6 Strength
-Cobalt Rage(maxed)

At level 20, even assuming no other investments, I'm getting +10 minimum from the stance, +3 from the strength boost, +5 from cobalt rage, +6 from the necklace and ~+15 from power attack. Without a party druid/archivist, GMFang will be harder to get, but if I got it, that's another +4, so either +39 or +43 to damage on each of my attacks, of which I currently get 7.

Assuming DR 15/-, I'm still dealing at least +24*7 on a full-attack by level 20, and at least 2 free feats to play with. Grab thunderstep boots and the target needs to roll up to 7 fort saves to avoid being stunned. In 3 rounds, assuming they're still standing(most be a boss) they'd have to roll 21 fort saves, after which a natural 1 stops being a possibility and starts being a likelihood.

Grynning
2010-11-06, 06:10 PM
Heehee, ok, I'm definitely making a totemist villain. It's going to be re-fluffed as an "aberrant" totemist, because the character will be a daelkyr halfblood (symbionts=more natural attacks, yay!) to fit in with the Eberron game I'm doing, and it's gestalt, so I'm thinking some kind of Beast-Heart Adept build on the other side so he'll have an Aberration buddy following him around.

He probably won't be as much of an ubercharger as some of the builds above because I don't want to totally murder my melee'ers, but thanks to everyone for all of the ideas.

Runestar
2010-11-06, 08:59 PM
7 natural attacks with plans to grab:
-Shocktrooper line
-Leading the charge(on myself or nearest ToB user with a free stance slot)
-Necklace of natural attacks(+1 necklace of collision
-Item of +6 Strength
-Cobalt Rage(maxed)

Again, there is nothing in dnd that can't be overcome via mass-stacking of similar bonuses. :smallsigh:

I was just thinking about amulet of mighty fists+5, 1/2 str mod to damage (didn't consider PA due to 3/4 bab, forgot about shocktrooper altogether), so should be averaging ~15-20 damage/hit only. :smallredface:

Weasel of Doom
2010-11-07, 01:02 AM
7 natural attacks :smalleek:

Would a level of soul eater from BoVD (energy drain on touch) be as amazing as I think it would be?

DaragosKitsune
2010-11-07, 02:39 AM
Wow, the synergy is awesome. For that matter, so is the RP synergy. A soulmelder who steals essentia.

drakir_nosslin
2010-11-07, 03:53 AM
I've looked over the guide and the tips mentioned. But now I'm personally interested in the effect of adding levels of artificer :smallamused:. Can't seem to find any information about it though.

Well, I guess that you'd start with being a Warforged or at least a construct. That means that you can enhance yourself with infusions and won't suffer as much from binding things (when you lose access to the items that takes up the same slot).

Gametime
2010-11-07, 01:42 PM
7 natural attacks :smalleek:

Would a level of soul eater from BoVD (energy drain on touch) be as amazing as I think it would be?

Depends on whether you interpret the ability as "drains a negative level with every touch" or "with a touch, can drain a negative level." The former would work with attacks; the latter would require a standard action. Technically, since no action type is specified, it should require a standard action to use, but it's hard to tell what the intent is. The fact that one interpretation is incredibly good and the other is incredibly awful doesn't help.