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TheDarkDM
2010-11-05, 01:29 AM
Hi there playground. First, some background:

I've been running a campaign with a group of friends for a little over two years, starting at level three. They began as a fairly low-op group with a questionable understanding of the rules. However, over time, due to both increased proficiency with the rules and the arrival and departure of several people, the party has moved from what I'd characterize as solid Tier 3 to nearly Tier 1, held back only by a Swordsage. This party of doom has just broken through to level 22, and I am beginning to notice the ridiculous amounts of xp I have to throw at them to be a challenge (last session, the ECL 20 party took down a tag team of Glooms). My question is, does the playground have any effective strategies for dealing with a high op epic party? I'm not looking to kill them, simply for satisfyingly challenging encounters. Any advice not reliant upon DM fiat is appreciated. :smallsmile:

And, for reference, here is my party:

Draconic Ghost Elf Wizard 4 / Beguiler 1 / Ultimate Magus 10 / Planeshifter 7

Grey Elf Psion 20 / Metamind 2

Human Cleric 10 / Radiant Servant of Pelor 10 / Unchosen class 2

Half Fiend Human Swordsage 16 / Ghost Faced Killer 2

Halfling Diviner 5/ Loremaster 10 / Archmage 5 / Unchosen class 2

Human Archivist 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Archmage 2 / Hierophant 2 / Unchosen class 2

*edit* I should also mention that Epic Spells will not be entering play.

Grendus
2010-11-05, 01:43 AM
Google 'tippers kobolds' (or something like that...been a while). Good place to start.

tyckspoon
2010-11-05, 02:01 AM
Google 'tippers kobolds' (or something like that...been a while). Good place to start.

Tucker's. Kobolds themselves will obviously not have any effect on this party (well.. maybe nigh-Epic Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerers) but it's a pretty good object lesson- you need to have enemies act with intelligence and actually deploy all the resources they have. One of my favorite examples for a high-CR monster is the Solar, which has Permanency as a spell-like ability and Clerical casting. The Symbol line of spells is on the Cleric list and can be made Permanent at exactly 0 cost to the Solar.. which means the first thing you should have to deal with on encountering a Solar is 6-8 saves as it flashes its Amulet of Symbols at you. If you're still standing after that, the Solar knows you're a pretty heavy hitter and it should take you a little more seriously. It's not something that's actually in the monster listing, but.. come on, you're talking about a near-deific force sporting 20+ Int and Wis. It can figure out what its abilities do.

On the plus side, Epic without Epic Spells runs pretty much like high-level pre-Epic; the numbers just get bigger (much bigger in the case of some of the monsters; it's a very hard life for an Epic fighter without having Epic Spells to buff you or ludicrous amounts of wealth.) You can rest assured that unless you homebrew another version of 10th+ level spells that your players will not gain any drastically new capabilities. On the downside, it runs a lot like high-level pre-Epic, and your party is almost entirely full or near-full casters; they can already do pretty much whatever they want.

Are you customizing the encounters? Do you change feats, add levels and gear to intelligent enemies? Or mostly run things as printed, maybe advance them by HD? It takes a particularly vicious opponent to challenge a party like yours as printed- the only things up to the job tend to be Dragons (which have a high build-your-own factor as is) and especially high-ranked Outsiders. If you're not customizing yet, you should start. If you want to use a melee threat, it needs to have things like Steadfast Determination if it's not already outright immune to the relevant saves and the Mage Slayer line so it can punch through magical protections. The Martial Study and various Incarnum-dip feats are excellent for customizing opponents and adding a few unusual abilities; the Blink Shirt, for example, is great for ducking through field control spells.

TheDarkDM
2010-11-05, 02:17 AM
Oh, I am well aware of Tucker's, but as tyckspoon mentioned anything less than venerable dragonwrought kobold sorcerers are unlikely to do anything against my party.

As far as customization goes, it of course varies, but I try to tailor monsters to be more effective. Though I have yet to look seriously into Incarnum...perhaps a new avenue to pursue.

Eldariel
2010-11-05, 02:43 AM
How much buffing do they do? How skilled are they with their spells? Such factors influence the difficulty of challenging them a lot.

In general though, it's basically a factor of the opponents' spellcasting prowess. Someone without magic isn't going to be a threat simply because the PCs can just declare themselves immune to physical attacks, not to mention ramp their all ACs (touch + flat-footed) into the hundreds combined with Contingencies and Wards against different effects that could cause trouble. Even reaching a teleporting flying invisible character can be a chore. This includes "number ramps" like the Hecatoncheires (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#hecatoncheires); it has impressive numbers but no real ability to counteract magic. That makes it woefully weak against a full caster party.

The big categories that can challenge them are things that can negate magic (something with a 100' AMF around it could be quite scary assuming Initiate of Mystra isn't a factor), and those that can use magic themselves (luckily this is by default most of the enemies on this level; angels, dragons, fiends and so on at the very least have a list of useful SLAs and the most dangerous bunch comes with spellcasting of their own). Dispels should be common, or Disjunctions if that's game (though mind that this can lead to lots of broken equipment). Countermagic too, and various Spell Turning/Ray Deflection/Anticipate Teleport/Forbiddance-type effects (basically, things that counter magic). Such spells don't make what they cover useless but they do make certain forms of spells less omnipotent.

Gutting Time Stop can help; having the enemies have e.g. Spell Stowaway: Time Stop on a somewhat regular basis can cut away at the rounds that spell eats. But yeah, intelligent playing and some magical counters are a must, and so is the ability to remove magic some way or another.