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Beelzebub1111
2010-11-05, 08:43 AM
Okay, I have a player joining soon, and ohmygod she's such a mary sue gamer. She recently started playing in our 2nd ed game and every time we meet a new female npc the first words out of her mouth are "I'm prettier than her" (we use comeliness scores so such a thing is quantifiable, but to constantly bring it up is a bit nauseating). When I start running my (3.5) game, she also wants to play a rogue.

Apparently when talking to the others, the last game she played, her boyfriend was the DM and she got special treatment (not that she could tell that, but the one getting the treatment seldom notices).

Now, I'm confidant in my ability to not treat anyone any better than anyone else (even that one guy that I hate), but I want to do my best to avoid nauseating talks about beauty and seduction (sex is one of the topics that I take great pains to circumvent in my game, though I'm trying to do it subtly. It's not something I have an easy time talking about.) Any advice or stories about related circumstances and how to deal?

Kurald Galain
2010-11-05, 09:13 AM
What I usually do is play a session of Call of Chtulhu or Paranoia with them, or indeed any RPG that gets their character mutilated, dismembered, summarily executed and eaten in short order.

Sex is actually pretty easy: just outright tell your group that there will be no explicit sex scenes in your game, and deal with such scenes with a "fade to black" and skip to the next morning.

If she likes pointing out how she's prettier than NPCs, then the obvious answer is to introduce the occasional NPC that is prettier than her.

Other than that, I'm not entirely clear on whether you think her character is annoying, or she as a player is annoying, or she uses the old "I'm roleplaying an obnoxious character" excuse to act obnoxiously out of character. Why would it matter that she's playing a rogue, anyway?

hamishspence
2010-11-05, 09:19 AM
Okay, I have a player joining soon, and ohmygod she's such a mary sue gamer. She recently started playing in our 2nd ed game and every time we meet a new female npc the first words out of her mouth are "I'm prettier than her" (we use comeliness scores so such a thing is quantifiable, but to constantly bring it up is a bit nauseating).

The Braveheart movie does this in quite a funny way with guys:

Stephen: "That can't be Wallace! I'm prettier than this man!"

Mastikator
2010-11-05, 09:23 AM
Tell her that her behavior is annoying and you'd like her to stop proclaiming to be prettier than everyone else.

Beelzebub1111
2010-11-05, 09:28 AM
Other than that, I'm not entirely clear on whether you think her character is annoying, or she as a player is annoying, or she uses the old "I'm roleplaying an obnoxious character" excuse to act obnoxiously out of character. Why would it matter that she's playing a rogue, anyway?
Overall, she's not an obnoxious person, and I don't think she realized that she's playing them obnoxiously.
The rogue isn't really an important point, don't know why I mentioned it.

Kurald Galain
2010-11-05, 09:30 AM
Overall, she's not an obnoxious person, and I don't think she realized that she's playing them obnoxiously.
The rogue isn't really an important point, don't know why I mentioned it.

In that case, I would suggest talking to her privately and asking her to please not point out every five minutes that her character is prettier. If you bring this tactfully, then I'd expect she doesn't mind stopping that.

Esser-Z
2010-11-05, 09:31 AM
Baleful Polymorph.


(not really, as that's a huge jerk move, but!)

Morithias
2010-11-05, 09:32 AM
Ironically the BOEF can easily counter the 'sex' problem. In that book sex is like many things a skill namely perform. She can claim in character to be the ultimate woman in bed, but keep in mind although she thinks that, the lack of ranks in said skill will keep the NPC's thinking differently, and eventually her reputation as an arrogant liar will get her in trouble and disliked (See Mean Girls or any other high school female-based movie.)

Kurald Galain
2010-11-05, 09:35 AM
Baleful Polymorph.

Play Vampire and let her be the Nosferatu :smallbiggrin:

valadil
2010-11-05, 09:39 AM
I had a player like that once. It pissed me off to no end. Then I figured out how to deal with her.

All she wanted was a little validation. If I gave her that little bit of extra description, she was happy. Other characters would succeed at that their tumble checks. She'd dance gracefully by her opponent, winking at him as she passed unharmed.

This had no mechanical effect. The players who were interested in mechanics didn't care that I was giving her the extra bits of description. If there were another player who wanted this kind of validation, I would have given them the extra description too.

Yeah, it's a little weird for me to pander to players in this way. But when I stopped and thought about it, all I was doing was giving her an extra sentence of description a couple times per game. That's all it took to keep that player happy. I'm used to spending hour writing custom plots and NPCs for everyone. She just wanted me to acknowledge her character's coolness once or twice an hour. It wasn't a lot to ask and it made her experience that much better.

For what it's worth, her characters were also competitively sexual. I've never been comfortable roleplaying romance. I thought giving her that extra description when she was hitting on people would be uncomfortable too, but it was actually fine if we left out details. If the players entered a bar, I'd tell her she could take home any guy there she wanted. And that was the end of it. Once she knew her character succeeded in that way, she felt no need to play out the awkward seduction. I was perfectly content to give out that freebie victory and move on with the game.

bokodasu
2010-11-05, 09:55 AM
I second the "well, try asking her to stop" method.

But Valadil, I like your style - that was an incredibly insightful and mature way to handle that situation. I would award you this +5 weapon of Defuse Unnecessary Drama, but it looks like you've already got one.

valadil
2010-11-05, 10:13 AM
But Valadil, I like your style - that was an incredibly insightful and mature way to handle that situation. I would award you this +5 weapon of Defuse Unnecessary Drama, but it looks like you've already got one.

TY, but I only deserve a +2. I spent 90% of the campaign frustrated by her and only realized how to fix things in the last 2 or 3 sessions.

Anonomuss
2010-11-05, 10:26 AM
If she's not obnoxious, and doesn't think she's being obnoxious, maybe she's just playing an insecure character? That she has to remind herself everytime she meets a female NPC that she's "prettier". Might be part of her character.

Unlikely, but you never know.

Psyx
2010-11-05, 10:47 AM
A lot of people are insecure. A lot of people counter that in-game. The wimp wants to beat people up, the guy who used to be bullied wants POWaaaaH, and the insecure girl wants to be the prettiest.

If it doesn't hurt the game, give her what she wants in the narrative. Cut the seduction scenes with a straight diplomacy role and then fade-to-black.
And then drop acid on her face at some point, obviously.

Myth
2010-11-05, 11:04 AM
She's a rogue right? Have her spot and steal a pretty trinket for her prettier-than-anybody-else's neck.

Suddenly, Necklace of Strangulation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#necklaceofStrangulation).

ThunderCat
2010-11-05, 11:06 AM
I agree with the people who say she's just hungry for validation. Don't punish her by making her character ugly or introducing prettier NPCs that you otherwise would, it would be like giving the strong guy a strength penalty and pumping the strength score of monsters just to avoid making him feel competent and special (kind of like the Worf Effect). Not cool.

I'd take valadil's advise for the first couple of sessions, and if she doesn't change, politely ask her (possibly in private) if she could please cut down on the number of times she mentions how pretty her character is.

Psyren
2010-11-05, 11:18 AM
All she wanted was a little validation. If I gave her that little bit of extra description, she was happy. Other characters would succeed at that their tumble checks. She'd dance gracefully by her opponent, winking at him as she passed unharmed.

What about when she failed? Did she gracefully fall on her bum and prettily eat an AoO?

valadil
2010-11-05, 11:28 AM
What about when she failed? Did she gracefully fall on her bum and prettily eat an AoO?

It didn't come up often, but I'm pretty sure I said that because of her looks the enemies were intent on watching her closely and were so focused on her they didn't miss the chance to attack. Or something like that.

kyoryu
2010-11-05, 11:30 AM
Aren't most RPG characters Mary Sues?

valadil
2010-11-05, 11:33 AM
Aren't most RPG characters Mary Sues?

Yes, but with varying degrees of assertiveness. The OP's Mary Sue needs to remind you she's a Mary Sue at every last opportunity.

Shademan
2010-11-05, 11:36 AM
eeh, some characters wanna wrestle every NPC, some wanna steal everything, some wanna be the prettiest in the world. have some NPC's compliment her once in a while and if you have any evil bards or charismatic villains make sure that they flirt during combat.
EVERYTHING can be twisted into a plot device or just screwed into fun

WarKitty
2010-11-05, 11:38 AM
Incubus. That is all.

Mordar
2010-11-05, 11:51 AM
Just to be sure...you're equally irritated whenever anyone talks about their seventy-eleven degrees of awesome tracking skill, or mad bow feats, or the ninety-seven goblins they killed with a single quickened-maximized-contingent-whateverothermetamagicfeat-bizarre non-evocation-damaging-spell, right? (Okay, no more hyphens, I promise!)

I've seen tons of male players bragging endlessly on their character's combat prowess, and while it may be gender-biased, I think it is exactly the same kind of issue as a female player bragging their character's attractiveness or ability to manipulate doltish men - a little wish-fulfillment is a key element in drawing players to RPGs. [Feel free to reverse the tropes as well - female wants to feel powerful, so Throd Smash! and male wants to be attractive, so Clifford the Bard beds all the babes.]

So, in short, let her have the spotlight in that regard, just like Throd the Barbarian gets to have the spotlight when raging through the gnoll village or the CoDZilla beats down the entrie Greek Pantheon on a whim. Save the "No, she is far more beautiful than you are" bit for an NPC in a story where it'll focus the issue - a rival, an enemy, or perhaps best of all, an NPC that looks to be a rival/enemy to start and ends a vital friend.

If you can play with someone you hate, I'm confident you can handle a little wish fulfillment character as well :smallsmile:

- M

Kurald Galain
2010-11-05, 11:52 AM
Aren't most RPG characters Mary Sues?

No.

Most RPG characters are author stand-ins (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorAvatar?from=Main.AuthorStandIn), not Mary Sues (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue).

Psyren
2010-11-05, 12:03 PM
It didn't come up often, but I'm pretty sure I said that because of her looks the enemies were intent on watching her closely and were so focused on her they didn't miss the chance to attack. Or something like that.

Ugh. I'd projectile vomit all over her character sheet if I had to be at the same table for that.


Suddenly, Necklace of Strangulation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#necklaceofStrangulation).

This item is just ridiculous. Nothing about failing to work on creatures that don't breathe (RAW, it can kill a Warforged or Necropolitan) and you need Wish to even identify the damn thing. You might as well just have rocks fall on someone as use this fiat-in-sheep's clothing.


Incubus. That is all.

Now here's a solution I can get behind. As long as my character gets one too. :smallamused:

valadil
2010-11-05, 12:13 PM
Ugh. I'd projectile vomit all over her character sheet if I had to be at the same table for that.


It's not how I prefer to GM, but it's necessary for some players. For what it's worth I've since declined to invite that player to any of my games. But while she was there I was intent to make the game good for both of us.

kyoryu
2010-11-05, 12:22 PM
No.

Most RPG characters are author stand-ins (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorAvatar?from=Main.AuthorStandIn), not Mary Sues (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue).

But a Mary Sue is an author standin, no? So you're arguing that most RPG characters are author stand-ins, but not quite obnoxious enough to meet the Mary Sue definition?

I'll buy that. But a lot of them still have very Mary-Sue-esque tendencies. Maybe they're a .5 Mary Sue.

Psyren
2010-11-05, 12:36 PM
It's not how I prefer to GM, but it's necessary for some players. For what it's worth I've since declined to invite that player to any of my games. But while she was there I was intent to make the game good for both of us.

I understand, and I'm not knocking your diplomatic skills. But to have even her failures twisted to be complimentary is definitely Sue territory.

Kaeso
2010-11-05, 12:53 PM
I have absolutely no DMing experience (or any DnD face-to-face experience due to personal circumstances) but if she wants to play a seductive character, maybe it'd be best to just throw her a bone once in a while? If she invests alot of skill points in social skills (which is pretty common for a rogue) she could be the seductive, flirty party face that could get the party access to strictly guarded places? It's cheesy and cliché but be honest, what DnD campaign isn't? It will give her an oppertunity to prove she's the prettiest, so perhaps she'll hold back on her need to establish herself as a beauty in situations where it isn't appropriate?

Dr.Epic
2010-11-05, 12:59 PM
What I usually do is play a session of Call of Chtulhu or Paranoia with them, or indeed any RPG that gets their character mutilated, dismembered, summarily executed and eaten in short order.

In any D&D game your character is likely to have physical scars left from battle. If it's a constant thing, tell her that (a) beauty is in the eye of the beholder (and you will be too if you don't shut up), and (b) every time you say that from now on your character says that and people will interact with you differently based on your characters vanity. If it gets so bad, just admit she's right and have some orcs try and kidnap her because she's so beautiful. That could be a fun solution.

Shademan
2010-11-05, 01:09 PM
In any D&D game your character is likely to have physical scars left from battle. If it's a constant thing, tell her that (a) beauty is in the eye of the beholder (and you will be too if you don't shut up), and (b) every time you say that from now on your character says that and people will interact with you differently based on your characters vanity. If it gets so bad, just admit she's right and have some orcs try and kidnap her because she's so beautiful. That could be a fun solution.

that sounds abit...rapy...

kyoryu
2010-11-05, 01:21 PM
Just to be sure...you're equally irritated whenever anyone talks about their seventy-eleven degrees of awesome tracking skill, or mad bow feats, or the ninety-seven goblins they killed with a single quickened-maximized-contingent-whateverothermetamagicfeat-bizarre non-evocation-damaging-spell, right? (Okay, no more hyphens, I promise!)


I believe this post is relevant, and wish to reiterate the point the author makes.

Godless_Paladin
2010-11-05, 01:24 PM
Why the heck would you use Comeliness?

Kesnit
2010-11-05, 01:35 PM
Play Vampire and let her be the Nosferatu :smallbiggrin:

In nWoD, Nos don't have to be ugly. The player can pick their Creep (except for some bloodlines), so they can pick a smell, aura, or something that doesn't affect appearance.

Actually, there is a Nos bloodline who are beautiful. Their Creep is that they are androgynous. The viewer literally cannot tell if the vampire is male or female.

Beelzebub1111
2010-11-05, 01:43 PM
Just to be sure...you're equally irritated whenever anyone talks about their seventy-eleven degrees of awesome tracking skill, or mad bow feats, or the ninety-seven goblins they killed with a single quickened-maximized-contingent-whateverothermetamagicfeat-bizarre non-evocation-damaging-spell, right? (Okay, no more hyphens, I promise!)

Don't get me wrong, I'll tolerate bragging. But if you bring it up at every chance (Ranger meeting another Ranger: "I'm a better shot than all these guys";Wizard meets Wizards: "I'm way smarter than all these guys") It gets ever so annoying.

Shademan
2010-11-05, 01:54 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'll tolerate bragging. But if you bring it up at every chance (Ranger meeting another Ranger: "I'm a better shot than all these guys";Wizard meets Wizards: "I'm way smarter than all these guys") It gets ever so annoying.

what if it's a character trait? the ranger is so obsessed with his skill that he demands a archery match with any archer he meets or the wizard is so narcisistic he cannot imagine anyone being better than him?

kyoryu
2010-11-05, 02:36 PM
what if it's a character trait? the ranger is so obsessed with his skill that he demands a archery match with any archer he meets or the wizard is so narcisistic he cannot imagine anyone being better than him?

Roleplaying is not an excuse for disruptive gameplay. The ranger demanding an archery match with every archer is going to drag down gameplay every time he meets an archer. It's just a way of hogging the spotlight, and disrupting the game for everyone else.

You can find a roleplaying-based excuse for *any* behavior.

In comparison, the OP's described behavior is relatively harmless, even if annoying. Just saying "I'm prettier than her" is obnoxious, but doesn't interrupt gameplay nearly as much as the ranger's behavior. If the ranger just said, "I'm a better shot than him" it'd be (roughly) the same - annoying, but not overly disruptive (depending on frequence with which women are encountered compared to archers).

Similarly, if the "prettier" PC insisted on having a seduction contest with every attractive woman she saw, it would be as annoying as the ranger demanding an archery contest.

If scaled like that, though, both have relatively equivalent disruption on the group - so any difference in the group's reaction says more about the person reacting than anything else.

Shademan
2010-11-05, 02:57 PM
Roleplaying is not an excuse for disruptive gameplay. The ranger demanding an archery match with every archer is going to drag down gameplay every time he meets an archer. It's just a way of hogging the spotlight, and disrupting the game for everyone else.

You can find a roleplaying-based excuse for *any* behavior.

In comparison, the OP's described behavior is relatively harmless, even if annoying. Just saying "I'm prettier than her" is obnoxious, but doesn't interrupt gameplay nearly as much as the ranger's behavior. If the ranger just said, "I'm a better shot than him" it'd be (roughly) the same - annoying, but not overly disruptive (depending on frequence with which women are encountered compared to archers).

Similarly, if the "prettier" PC insisted on having a seduction contest with every attractive woman she saw, it would be as annoying as the ranger demanding an archery contest.

If scaled like that, though, both have relatively equivalent disruption on the group - so any difference in the group's reaction says more about the person reacting than anything else.

in which case he needs to synergyze with the other PC's roleplay. their characters tell him that they have no time and convince him to rush to the dungoen with them. the ranger grumbles but agrees.

Coidzor
2010-11-05, 03:30 PM
Actually, there is a Nos bloodline who are beautiful. Their Creep is that they are androgynous. The viewer literally cannot tell if the vampire is male or female.

Even with their pants off? :smalleek: ...That is pretty creepy, I'll give it that.


that sounds abit...rapy...

Well, you don't need to quite get to that point.

Also, depending upon how adept the PC is, even if they tried they'd likely get their asses kicked thoroughly.

Shademan
2010-11-05, 03:42 PM
Well, you don't need to quite get to that point.
.

unless you make the orcs go "hurr hurr! you pretty! we marry you to chief!"
or
"you gonna be our maid. clean n cook hurr hurr"
I dont really see why they would kidnap her...
then again, maybe the orc doing the kidnapping is a romantic...hmmm.....I can work with that idea...

Coidzor
2010-11-05, 03:51 PM
unless you make the orcs go "hurr hurr! you pretty! we marry you to chief!"
or
"you gonna be our maid. clean n cook hurr hurr"
I dont really see why they would kidnap her...
then again, maybe the orc doing the kidnapping is a romantic...hmmm.....I can work with that idea...

To orcs, bothering to kidnap the dame is a sure sign of a romantic bent. :smallamused:

Sir Homeslice
2010-11-05, 03:52 PM
But a Mary Sue is an author standin, no? So you're arguing that most RPG characters are author stand-ins, but not quite obnoxious enough to meet the Mary Sue definition?

I'll buy that. But a lot of them still have very Mary-Sue-esque tendencies. Maybe they're a .5 Mary Sue.

You're using Mary Sue grossly wrong.

Toliudar
2010-11-05, 04:20 PM
If sex isn't involved in the game, you might want to quietly eliminate the comeliness stat altogether. So, she gets to be very pretty if she wants, without having any mechanical basis for saying "I'm prettier." And, as Valadil and others have so clearly pointed out, having the fantasy-fulfillment aspect validated once in a while might make the problem go away (or at least recede). Worth a try, anyway, before starting to go for anything more punitive.

AslanCross
2010-11-05, 04:26 PM
You're using Mary Sue grossly wrong.

Aye. While author stand-ins may be Mary Sues, the two are not synonyms.

I'd suggest talking to her.

Or letting her meet a monster that says "Hey, you're so pretty. LEMME CARVE OFF THAT FACE."

Or both?

Agrippa
2010-11-05, 04:43 PM
I'd suggest having the world react realistically towards her. She doesn't get any special breaks from her enemies in battle just because she's pretty. And people don't bend over backwards for her either. Part of the definition of a Mary Sue is a character who passively warps reality around him or herself or ignores the fundamental rules of the setting.

kyoryu
2010-11-05, 05:27 PM
Aye. While author stand-ins may be Mary Sues, the two are not synonyms.


Yeah, didn't mean to imply they were - just that Mary Sues are a subset of author stand-ins.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Crow
2010-11-05, 07:25 PM
Let's see a picture of her!

true_shinken
2010-11-05, 07:34 PM
...Why is that a bad thing? Let the girl play her seductive rogue. Sometimes she'll succeed, sometimes not.

Ashram
2010-11-05, 08:56 PM
Let's see a picture of her!

This. Not to get all psycho-analyst in here, but maybe she wants a super pretty character that's prettier than everyone else because she herself is not all that pretty?

kyoryu
2010-11-05, 08:59 PM
This. Not to get all psycho-analyst in here, but maybe she wants a super pretty character that's prettier than everyone else because she herself is not all that pretty?

Possible. But people that concerned about appearances usually put effort into theirs. At least that's my theory.

We need pics to come to a proper conclusion. For, ya know, science.

JustIgnoreMe
2010-11-05, 09:12 PM
This item is just ridiculous. Nothing about failing to work on creatures that don't breathe (RAW, it can kill a Warforged or Necropolitan) and you need Wish to even identify the damn thing. You might as well just have rocks fall on someone as use this fiat-in-sheep's clothing.
It doesn't say you take damage because you can't breath, it says you take damage because your neck's being constricted... tighter and tighter each round. Even Warforged and Necropolitans generally need their heads attached to their bodies to survive, no?

Coidzor
2010-11-05, 09:19 PM
While I can't exactly condone the whole demand for pics, there is a point to be made here.

If it's a bit of persistent wish-fulfillment that's based on her own real-life self-esteem issues, that probably requires a bit more tact to deal with in order to avoid alienating her or appearing preachy or therapisty or ending up dragged into such a situation where one could get forced into coming off that way.

Psyren
2010-11-05, 09:32 PM
It doesn't say you take damage because you can't breath, it says you take damage because your neck's being constricted... tighter and tighter each round. Even Warforged and Necropolitans generally need their heads attached to their bodies to survive, no?

...No, they don't. I can't imagine why they would.

And even ruling them out, what if an ettin puts one on? An ooze? A skeleton?

Dralnu
2010-11-05, 09:38 PM
really smart way to make everyone happy snip

+1!!! This is how DM'ing should be like in my opinion. Players are happy when their characters are validated as being awesome, which is the DM's job to oblige. A fighter who wants to kick ass in battle will feel great when you let him mow down things now and then. A spymaster will feel awesome when you let him infiltrate a social network and use his skills to good use.

In this case, it sounds like this girl wants her character to feel pretty. She can probably back her character's attractiveness with mechanics, right? So feed her some of that and make her happy. Then she'll be happy, you'll be happy, everyone wins!

WarKitty
2010-11-05, 09:39 PM
Suggest a beguiler?

Amphetryon
2010-11-05, 09:42 PM
Have her character bite a poisoned apple and fall into a coma?

Have her kidnapped into an impregnable fortress city, requiring the other players to sneak inside?

Tiki Snakes
2010-11-05, 10:06 PM
that sounds abit...rapy...

It does.

It also reminds me of my old DM. We rescued the local lord's son from some Orcs at one point. We found them, scantily clad, in the workout room of the dungeon. Just the lord's son and about a dozen orcs. Pretty sure the human wasn't wearing much clothing at that point.

But yeah, don't do that to a player character. :smallsmile:

Shademan
2010-11-06, 05:38 AM
It does.

It also reminds me of my old DM. We rescued the local lord's son from some Orcs at one point. We found them, scantily clad, in the workout room of the dungeon. Just the lord's son and about a dozen orcs. Pretty sure the human wasn't wearing much clothing at that point.

But yeah, don't do that to a player character. :smallsmile:

ITS FUN TO STAY ON THE...Y...M...C...A!!!!
Gotta steal that idea!

mint
2010-11-06, 08:06 AM
It sounds like she was new to this type of gaming. She may just grow out of it.
We, the commentators, have little to go on here.
It is even possible she is a bit sick of getting special treatment.
As you said, she is not an obnoxious person, maybe she is simply unaware of table etiquette and junk.

Also, If she just likes playing pretty characters, ask if she wants to play a sorcerer. Then she'll gain mechanical benefit from being pretty.

true_shinken
2010-11-06, 04:07 PM
Make her take the Silver Tongue feat. Now she is a Diplomacy check away from true love!

WarKitty
2010-11-06, 04:10 PM
It sounds like she was new to this type of gaming. She may just grow out of it.
We, the commentators, have little to go on here.
It is even possible she is a bit sick of getting special treatment.
As you said, she is not an obnoxious person, maybe she is simply unaware of table etiquette and junk.

Also, If she just likes playing pretty characters, ask if she wants to play a sorcerer. Then she'll gain mechanical benefit from being pretty.

Bard for this, not sorcerer. Seriously, the bard is built for this. You have a zillion abilities around making people want to do what you say. I always figured sorcerers as less the pretty type and more straight force of personality. Now, the body to die for musician/dancer, that's a fantasy classic.

Psyx
2010-11-08, 10:31 AM
Possible. But people that concerned about appearances usually put effort into theirs. At least that's my theory.


'Putting in an effort' and 'get results' are two very different things. :smallcool:

TBH: Most of the real Mary-Sue style female narcissistic characters that I've ever come across have not been very attractive in real life. Again: It's the escapism. Wimps play strapping barbarians to experience things they can't in reality and kick sand in people's faces for the same reason. Men and women are different creatures, but both strive for validity and have a 'fantasy self' through which they can do so.

I'm guessing that she's quite an inexperienced gamer. Does she ask for bonuses if she gets hit and decides that it's broken a nail?

Valameer
2010-11-08, 12:02 PM
Whether it's escapism or not, can't you just let her have some fun?

I mean, she'll be a lot quieter about it if you follow what valadil said about throwing her a bone or two every session. It's not much, not enough to grab spotlight from the other characters, but it will fufil whatever need she has for this kind of validation.

Just make a young male NPC or two swoon over her, or have her catch a badguy off guard. Maybe a crime-lord eyes her character a second or two longer than the rest of the party. Guillible NPCs want to trust her. *shrug* It's not that far out of your way, and it will make the player happy - thus getting her to quiet down about it.

All this talk about seeing a picture of her, or getting orcs to abduct her, or calling her a mary-sue; honestly it seems unfair to the player just cause she's trying (too) hard to play a certain type of character.

'sides, she can't be a mary-sue. I think you'd have to be a DMPC to pull that off. You know, the big heroic death. All the NPCs "weeping shamelessly" at her sacrifice... A PC trying to pull that off usually just becomes the scrappy. And yes, I realise the scrappy and a mary sue are not exclusive. Players will probably hate both.

One last thing - attractiveness in real life carries a huge advantage with it, especially when you get to the extreme levels of it (D&D characters hit the extreme levels of strength, dexterity, health and intellect all the time, so why not?) It would make sense for a party-face to be insanely attractive, just to fill that role better.

Knaight
2010-11-08, 12:28 PM
Aren't most RPG characters Mary Sues?

This has been covered, they basically can't be. That said, in my experience, most aren't even created with Mary Sue as a guideline. They are characters, dramatically different from the creator, often massively flawed people that the creator doesn't particularly like.

Callista
2010-11-08, 12:29 PM
Is she at all into writing or storytelling of a non-D&D sort? I mean, if you were to explain to her that the character isn't really a very realistic character, would she take that as constructive criticism and give her some flaws and weaknesses? For characters who are very good at something (or very beautiful), pride and overconfidence is a good idea for a flaw--she overestimates her own talents, gets herself in too deep, and then has to be rescued (or, maybe, can't be rescued) from the resulting embarrassing situation. Maybe she even ends up not so beautiful. Maybe she becomes bitter; maybe she learns from it. Maybe she goes into denial and insists she's still perfect, but other people have been screwing her over. Stuff like that.

I've had to watch out for that in my own characters; I don't make them perfect as in "I can never fail", and I don't throw tantrums when they mess up or even when they get killed; but a great many of them fall dangerously close to the morally perfect "purity Sue" stereotype. I have to be careful to give them temptations, moral failings, even fatal flaws, things they can fall to--otherwise it's just too easy for them to do the right thing, and that's not admirable, just annoying, eventually even to me. I enjoy playing Good-aligned characters, but you can really take that too far. Even Exalted characters, who never or very nearly never mess up, need to have realistic flaws.

If she wants a realistic character, she's going to have to think about some of these things... On the other hand, if she's fine with a cardboard-cutout perfection-personified, then she may not listen.

Jayngfet
2010-11-08, 12:51 PM
This has been covered, they basically can't be. That said, in my experience, most aren't even created with Mary Sue as a guideline. They are characters, dramatically different from the creator, often massively flawed people that the creator doesn't particularly like.

Who do you game with and where can I meet them. Basically the only sane gamer I've ever spoken with lamented his guy stood out as wierd because he was "a normal guy who went to college" even though his player wasn't a college student, as opposed to the demon samurai princes(actual character) and equally rediculous things the other player picked.

I've run across some rather outlandish things in real life and online, and the idea that most players don't like or grow overly attached to their characters is as outlandish as the fact that they do it to begin with.

Psyx
2010-11-08, 12:57 PM
It would make sense for a party-face to be insanely attractive, just to fill that role better.

You mean having most of their own teeth, hairy armpits and only a few pox scars?

I've already said that I would recommend playing along to some extent, but if I was feeling evil, I'd have great fun in portraying the characters 'hotness' in terms appropriate to the era.

eg "I'm more beautiful than her!"
"Yes. The lord's eyes his slim, athletic and tanned wife with a look of dissatisfaction - his gaze once more taking in your generous child-bearing hips and pallid complexion"

WarKitty
2010-11-08, 12:59 PM
You mean having most of their own teeth, hairy armpits and only a few pox scars?

I've already said that I would recommend playing along to some extent, but if I was feeling evil, I'd have great fun in portraying the characters 'hotness' in terms appropriate to the era.

eg "I'm more beautiful than her!"
"Yes. The lord's eyes his slim, athletic and tanned wife with a look of dissatisfaction - his gaze once more taking in your generous child-bearing hips and pallid complexion"

Stealing for my bardess.

Valameer
2010-11-08, 01:35 PM
You mean having most of their own teeth, hairy armpits and only a few pox scars?

I've already said that I would recommend playing along to some extent, but if I was feeling evil, I'd have great fun in portraying the characters 'hotness' in terms appropriate to the era.

eg "I'm more beautiful than her!"
"Yes. The lord's eyes his slim, athletic and tanned wife with a look of dissatisfaction - his gaze once more taking in your generous child-bearing hips and pallid complexion"

Yes, but humans in standard D&D aren't 5 feet tall on average, and live quite a bit longer than an average 40 years, unlike the middle ages. I would argue that a D&D setting is *typically* a lot more modern than the medieval setting it seems to emulate. Who says the standards in beauty aren't modern as well? Check the art in every D&D book ever printed. Skimpy clothes (or armor, somehow); Slender females, buff males; All full of teeth with no pox. Sound familiar?

I doubt the majority of us have a truly medieval vision in their head while they play their characters, as humourous as your example would be. I mean - the shock value alone would be worth trying once.

I play in Eberron, where the standards of physical attractiveness are agruably higher still than modern day Earth's, and the fashion is far more advanced. So you want to look like some pretty picture you found on the internets? Alright, that's fine. If you like pretty people, why should I make it my job to stop your fun?

Knaight
2010-11-08, 01:57 PM
Who do you game with and where can I meet them. Basically the only sane gamer I've ever spoken with lamented his guy stood out as wierd because he was "a normal guy who went to college" even though his player wasn't a college student, as opposed to the demon samurai princes(actual character) and equally rediculous things the other player picked.

I do a lot of gaming online over the semi official Fudge IRC channel. Some sample characters, all from my setting.

A learning alchemist who left the academic setting because she felt she had a chance at adventure. Naive, overly trusting, and a bit short tempered, but a nice person.
A bounty hunter on the run from a failed target with some influence. Said bounty hunter came from a somewhat primitive tribal area, and has been trying to free himself from its influence.
A long term homeless person with some issues with paranoia.
An aspiring painter who got dragged into a problem well above his ability.
A noble ambassador from an old noble order, trying to fit in with the new.

Other settings with other GMs usually have similar characters. The most outlandish character I've had was a pirate with an airship, because he happened to know someone who worked with hydrogen. And the player was 13 at the time.

Now, more comedic, less serious settings have oddities, but even then they are flawed characters tuned for light humor.

kyoryu
2010-11-08, 07:11 PM
This has been covered, they basically can't be. That said, in my experience, most aren't even created with Mary Sue as a guideline. They are characters, dramatically different from the creator, often massively flawed people that the creator doesn't particularly like.

... and that completely depends on the group. However, I think that what you're describing is what *should* happen. My snarky comment was mostly bemoaning the fact that it seems to happen less and less these days.

Knaight
2010-11-08, 07:17 PM
... and that completely depends on the group. However, I think that what you're describing is what *should* happen. My snarky comment was mostly bemoaning the fact that it seems to happen less and less these days.

Hence the in my experience. What I'm describing is what I have consistently seen happen. If it aligns extremely well with what should happen, then lucky me. :smallbiggrin:

kyoryu
2010-11-08, 07:37 PM
as opposed to the demon samurai princes(actual character) and equally rediculous things the other player picked.


This is pretty much the kind of thing I was whining about. And make no mistake, I *was* whining.

I like to call it Snowflake Syndrome.