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Lev
2010-11-05, 12:42 PM
So, I was looking at the Initiate Of Pistis Sophia in the BoED and I can't figure out what race the picture is.

Can anyone help?

Psyren
2010-11-05, 12:45 PM
I'll help with the picture:

http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75052.jpg&origin=dnd_ag_20031031a

Looks like some kind of fey, but they tend to be chaotic and IoPS has to be lawful.

Dr.Epic
2010-11-05, 12:45 PM
I'll help with the picture:

http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75052.jpg&origin=dnd_ag_20031031a

Looks like a satyr.

Psyren
2010-11-05, 12:47 PM
Satyr:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG220.jpg

...Close enough...?

Dr.Epic
2010-11-05, 12:48 PM
It could also be Tim Curry in Legend.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-11-05, 12:48 PM
Assuming this is the picture you are talking about

http://www.google.com.mx/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/boed_gallery/75052.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.elftown.com/_celestials%2520and%2520guardinals&usg=__gl4D9S5Hy8vjhkdnHQ0HyLmZFSw=&h=511&w=400&sz=88&hl=es&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=D4oQ3rOMLg6D1M:&tbnh=138&tbnw=100&prev=/images%3Fq%3DInitiate%2Bof%2BPistis%2BSophia%26um% 3D1%26hl%3Des%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26biw%3D1024%26bih%3D576%26tbs%3Disch: 1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=470&ei=_ELUTOqYEorWtQO25sGGCw&oei=_ELUTOqYEorWtQO25sGGCw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0&tx=43&ty=44


My guess it is a satyr

Edit: Swordsages everywhere!!!

Thrawn183
2010-11-05, 12:49 PM
I was totally going to guess a Tiefling. Interesting.

Psyren
2010-11-05, 12:52 PM
Actually, given the book's theme, I think Tiefling is the right answer.

Zaydos
2010-11-05, 01:00 PM
I was going to say Tiefling as well, but seem to have gotten here a little late.

Morph Bark
2010-11-05, 01:02 PM
Obviously the answer is the offspring of a Satyr and a Tiefling.

Urpriest
2010-11-05, 01:03 PM
Neither. It's a Cervidal, the goatlike Guardinal.

Morph Bark
2010-11-05, 01:05 PM
Neither. It's a Cervidal, the goatlike Guardinal.

Cervidals are more goatlike though. The Guardinals all have actual animal-like heads, rather than humanoid faces.

Dr.Epic
2010-11-05, 01:08 PM
Obviously the answer is the offspring of a Satyr and a Tiefling.

a satyr tiefling (robot pirate zombie)

Urpriest
2010-11-05, 01:10 PM
Cervidals are more goatlike though. The Guardinals all have actual animal-like heads, rather than humanoid faces.

Not the Cervidal, oddly enough. Check out the picture in the MMII. It's pretty much a skinny satyr, which is exactly what the picture is.

Lev
2010-11-05, 01:13 PM
Neither. It's a Cervidal, the goatlike Guardinal.

BINGO! We have a winner!

Thanks buddy.

Source: MM2 pg. 42

Psyren
2010-11-05, 01:34 PM
Aren't Cervidals NG though?

Greenish
2010-11-05, 01:41 PM
Aren't Cervidals NG though?BoED has good demons (if my memory serves). Alignments are rarely absolute.

Eloel
2010-11-05, 01:43 PM
BoED has good demons (if my memory serves). Alignments are rarely absolute.

WotC even published a Succubus Paladin somewhere.

Greenish
2010-11-05, 01:45 PM
WotC even published a Succubus Paladin somewhere.She gets a negative level from holding her Holy weapon, the poor thing. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a)

Urpriest
2010-11-05, 01:45 PM
WotC even published a Succubus Paladin somewhere.

And BoED has an awesome Illithid Paladin. Not, IIRC, an Always alignment, but an awesome concept nevertheless.

Lev
2010-11-05, 01:45 PM
Aren't Cervidals NG though?
Yes, they are a celestial race.

Psyren
2010-11-05, 01:57 PM
Well there's several other Cervidal monks in the book so I'm convinced. (It could still be a Tiefling though.)

grimbold
2010-11-05, 05:35 PM
are there pictures of characters w/ la?

Urpriest
2010-11-05, 05:35 PM
are there pictures of characters w/ la?

Could you clarify what you mean by that?

Greenish
2010-11-05, 05:38 PM
are there pictures of characters w/ la?BoED art gallery. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ag/20031031a)

Frosty
2010-11-05, 05:56 PM
She gets a negative level from holding her Holy weapon, the poor thing. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a)
She can also be smitten (smote?) by Smite Evil. Sad...

Thurbane
2010-11-05, 07:53 PM
Cervidal on the right:

http://i56.tinypic.com/52zz3r.jpg

Certainly looks like the correct race.

grimbold
2010-11-06, 02:22 AM
Could you clarify what you mean by that?

sorry
I meant all classes have a picture of somebody who has taken levels in that class, do any of these pictures feature races who have a level adjustment?

Lev
2010-11-06, 08:54 AM
sorry
I meant all classes have a picture of somebody who has taken levels in that class, do any of these pictures feature races who have a level adjustment?
Satyrs have LA, Cervidals do not simply because it isn't listed.
Though, it has 4HD so you'd be paying for that even if it had listed +0.

hamishspence
2010-11-06, 09:23 AM
The 3.5 update handbook to MM2 and several other 3.0 books (free online at the WoTC site- assuming it's still there) does give the Cervidal an LA.

It is LA +5.

Not good.


BoED has good demons (if my memory serves). Alignments are rarely absolute.

On the subject of Good Demons- technically BoED doesn't have any statted out, and goes so far as to say of fiends "best slain, or at least banished, and only a naive fool would try and convert them"- however, as mentioned, it does allow for redeemed members of normally very evil races, and says of chromatic dragons that they are "not entirely beyond salvation".

It has a pic where two succubi are apparently in love with one another, confronted by a paladin, and the paladin "must choose between destroying evil and honoring love" though.

The WoTC succubus was possibly the first Good fiend to be statted (though the computer game Planescape Torment, did have a Neutral succubus).

Later, the book Expedition to the Demonweb Pits, introduced an entire race of human-blooded demons (cambions) and stated flatly that they were "Often Chaotic Evil" and that "10% are Neutral or Good".

Urpriest
2010-11-06, 10:21 AM
sorry
I meant all classes have a picture of somebody who has taken levels in that class, do any of these pictures feature races who have a level adjustment?

Many prestige classes do, especially those geared towards monstrous characters. I can't think of a base class that does, though of course some of the substitution levels (aasimar for example) do by default. Similarly, Drow Paragon and Half-Dragon Paragon obviously feature pictures of characters with LA.

Lev
2010-11-06, 10:31 AM
The 3.5 update handbook to MM2 and several other 3.0 books (free online at the WoTC site- assuming it's still there) does give the Cervidal an LA.

It is LA +5.

Not good.
I think if I want to play one I'll just homebrew a bloodline template, mostly just to get the vague aesthetics.




On the subject of Good Demons- technically BoED doesn't have any statted out, and goes so far as to say of fiends "best slain, or at least banished, and only a naive fool would try and convert them"- however, as mentioned, it does allow for redeemed members of normally very evil races, and says of chromatic dragons that they are "not entirely beyond salvation".
http://rebootrevival.com/images/wiki1.png
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080110215224/reboot/images/2/2b/115px-WHITE_QUEEN_HEX.jpg

hamishspence
2010-11-06, 12:34 PM
On the WoTC online succubus article, I figure that as "sure, only a naive fool would try and convert them- but sometimes, naive fools succeed." :smallamused:

At least it's not as bad as BoVD on that subject:

page 8 BoVD

Consorting with Fiends
If characters can be judged by the company they keep, then those who deal with fiends- demons and devils- are surely evil beings themselves. Fiends are the ultimate expression of evil given form- literally evil incarnate. Destroying a fiend is always a good act. Allowing a fiend to exist, let alone summoning one or helping one, is clearly evil.
Occasionally, a spellcaster may summon a fiendish creature to accomplish some task. Such an act is evil, but not terribly so. However, some characters, particularly those who worship demons or devils or see them as valuable allies, may work with (or for) fiends to further their own ends.

In the later Savage Species, one of the campaign archetypes: With Malice Toward None(Chaotic/Accepting) is kinder:

page 103 Savage Species:

In this world, evil among monsters is largely perceived to be a psychological condition rather than an absolute or genetic one. Most monsters are thought to become creatures of evil or destruction not because of any infernal or diabolic tie, but because of rejection, loneliness, or some other understandable psychological condition. Even the foulest tanar'ri may in truth be the victim of its own psychoses, and the enlightened people of this world hold out hope that with openness, respect, and even love, the darkest of souls can be redeemed. And who knows? Perhaps they are right.

Lev
2010-11-06, 02:03 PM
Hamishspence, you just made it onto my signature banner.

hamishspence
2010-11-07, 02:52 PM
Hamishspence, you just made it onto my signature banner.

For which part? The BoVD quote, Savage Species quote, or the quip about how "sometimes naive fools succeed"?

Lev
2010-11-07, 03:59 PM
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/6555/evilcreatures.jpg

hamishspence
2010-11-07, 05:29 PM
Ah, the Savage Species quote.

It's a good way of thinking for the nicer kind of Good character.

ffone
2010-11-07, 05:53 PM
In this world, evil among monsters is largely perceived to be a psychological condition rather than an absolute or genetic one. Most monsters are thought to become creatures of evil or destruction not because of any infernal or diabolic tie, but because of rejection, loneliness, or some other understandable psychological condition. Even the foulest tanar'ri may in truth be the victim of its own psychoses, and the enlightened people of this world hold out hope that with openness, respect, and even love, the darkest of souls can be redeemed. And who knows? Perhaps they are right.



Ah, the Savage Species quote.

It's a good way of thinking for the nicer kind of Good character.

Little do they know, the demon knows that's how many good characters think, and so he deliberately portrays himself as Just Misunderstood, And A Victim With a Bad Childhood.

hamishspence
2010-11-07, 06:07 PM
True- but being Good doesn't mean you have to be gullible.

Only one demon type really has a true childhood though- rather than springing forth fully grown from the material of the Abyss.

The Cambion- half-demon, half-planetouched (usually the planetouched half is tiefling).

Given that, despite being demons, 10% are Neutral or Good, giving them the benefit the doubt (while still being cautious and wary) might be warranted.

That said, a world might have very different archetypes depending on the region. Some places might be Chaotic/Rejecting, with maybe a few places following other philosophies.

Psyren
2010-11-07, 06:46 PM
While I too like grey moralities, I will point out that the Savage Species quote refers to a variant, custom campaign world in which "misunderstood fiends" are a possiblity. The default D&D setting doesn't seem to allow for such.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-07, 06:50 PM
Erineyes have a childhood as well; they are simply raised to be evil angels instead of good ones. Having a storyline about an Erineyes Messiah who is trying to rescue all of the children erineyes from Hell would be kinda cool.

Lev
2010-11-07, 07:05 PM
True- but being Good doesn't mean you have to be gullible.

Only one demon type really has a true childhood though- rather than springing forth fully grown from the material of the Abyss.

The Cambion- half-demon, half-planetouched (usually the planetouched half is tiefling).

Given that, despite being demons, 10% are Neutral or Good, giving them the benefit the doubt (while still being cautious and wary) might be warranted.

That said, a world might have very different archetypes depending on the region. Some places might be Chaotic/Rejecting, with maybe a few places following other philosophies.
My understanding of the generic demon is a physical manifestation of a tortured soul, or soul that has been corrupted into a demonic or devil entity.

hamishspence
2010-11-08, 03:51 AM
While I too like grey moralities, I will point out that the Savage Species quote refers to a variant, custom campaign world in which "misunderstood fiends" are a possiblity. The default D&D setting doesn't seem to allow for such.

It points out that even within a campaign world, there can be variation in attitudes toward monsters- you might have one city which is Chaotic-Accepting, and another which is Lawful-Rejecting.

And it is "attitudes toward monsters" that are defined by those archetypes- not the natures of monsters themselves.

Also, the previously mentioned Succubus Paladin on the WoTC site, does indicate that at least some demons have proven themselves redeemable.


My understanding of the generic demon is a physical manifestation of a tortured soul, or soul that has been corrupted into a demonic or devil entity.

That is roughly how it works for most demons, with the cambion being one of the few exceptions. The Cambion is listed as "Demon, Cambion", has the Outsider type, Extraplanar subtype, Chaotic subtype, and Evil subtype. It is definitely a fiend- but compared to other demons, there's a much higher proportion of nonevil cambions.

There's a ritual in Savage Species that can replace alignment subtypes with other alignment subtypes, or grant subtypes. If the being is lucky, it may survive the process even if the change is as radical as replacing the Evil subtype with the Good subtype in a demon.

So- there is an option for redeemed demons who don't want to keep having problems with, say, holy weapons that they wield inflicting negative levels on them. And it does show that alignment subtypes do not define fiends wholly- they can survive their subtypes being changed.