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Welknair
2010-11-05, 04:41 PM
Step 1. Wizard, Sorcerer, or other arcane caster at first level. Take Precocious apprentice for a second level spell.
Step 2. Cleric, favored soul, or other divine caster at second. Stab out your eyes to earn the blind flaw, getting yourself a bonus feat. Take alternate source spell, allowing you to cast your second level arcane spell as a divine one, thus fulfilling both requirements.
Step 3. Find a way to get around the skill prerequisites. (I just noticed those as I was typing this up. Crap)

Hmph. I was going to go all "Hey look how awesome this is", but instead it's "Does anyone know how to do step 3?

Psyren
2010-11-05, 04:50 PM
I think the only way around skill floors is the Bard's Inspire Greatness ability, which grants everyone who hears him bonus HD (and, by extension, a boosted skill cap.) But as you need a 9th-level bard and it only lasts until the ability ends...

Curmudgeon
2010-11-05, 04:50 PM
Step 2. Cleric, favored soul, or other divine caster at second. Stab out your eyes to earn the blind flaw, getting yourself a bonus feat.
This requires an especially generous DM. From Unearthed Arcana, page 91:
A player may select up to two flaws when creating a character. After 1st level, a character cannot take on additional flaws unless the DM specifically allows it

Eloel
2010-11-05, 04:52 PM
Step 2. Cleric, favored soul, or other divine caster at second. Stab out your eyes to earn the blind flaw, getting yourself a bonus feat.Pay someone for Chaos Shuffle. Take alternate source spell, allowing you to cast your second level arcane spell as a divine one, thus fulfilling both requirements.
Alternatively, as someone put it:

Pazuzu, Pazuzu, Pazuzu.

Kondziu
2010-11-05, 04:53 PM
This requires an especially generous DM.
"Nope, sorry. Put those eyes back in your eyesockets."

Eloel
2010-11-05, 04:55 PM
"Nope, sorry. Put those eyes back in your eyesockets."

It kinda avoids the issue of
Stab out your eyes for a feat. Regenerate. Free feat.

Psyren
2010-11-05, 04:55 PM
An Illumian Cleric can cast 2nd-level spells at level 1 with Improved Sigil (Krau.) So use your flaws at first-level on that.

kryan
2010-11-05, 05:22 PM
Illumian (Races of Destiny) Archivist 2/Wizard 1 or Archivist 1/Wizard 2 with the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat (Races of Destiny) seems like the easiest way in. Getting around the skill requirement just isn't worth it. Really, it's kind of questionable whether Mystic Theurge is worth it even if you managed to get in at 3...

Anyway, there are two ways around a skill requirement - a Bard with Inspire Greatness going 24/7, or the Primary Contact feat from Cityscape (requires another feat, Favored, and only lets you get a bonus to 1 skill and cannot be taken twice).

Urpriest
2010-11-05, 05:24 PM
I think the only way around skill floors is the Bard's Inspire Greatness ability, which grants everyone who hears him bonus HD (and, by extension, a boosted skill cap.) But as you need a 9th-level bard and it only lasts until the ability ends...

There's also polymorphing into a Dusk giant for a similar solution.

This falls under both "screwing around with HD-based caps" and "stealing particularly broken abilities from obscure monsters", so it's one of the cheesier methods. Skill prereqs generally take pretty severe cheese to break.

T.G. Oskar
2010-11-05, 05:27 PM
Step 1. Wizard, Sorcerer, or other arcane caster at first level. Take Precocious apprentice for a second level spell.
Step 2. Cleric, favored soul, or other divine caster at second. Stab out your eyes to earn the blind flaw, getting yourself a bonus feat. Take alternate source spell, allowing you to cast your second level arcane spell as a divine one, thus fulfilling both requirements.
Step 3. Find a way to get around the skill prerequisites. (I just noticed those as I was typing this up. Crap)

Hmph. I was going to go all "Hey look how awesome this is", but instead it's "Does anyone know how to do step 3?

Darn, where is Doc Roc when we need him the most? Or a ToS veteran, that is.

I think the trick has to deal something with getting extra HD with Inspire Greatness, then be level drained or something similar, somehow making those phantom HD count as actual HD and get skill points out of it. I reckon that's the trick more or less, though it's really flimsy. And pure TO at its best.

Gavinfoxx
2010-11-05, 05:32 PM
Or you could, you know, just be an Archivist?

tyckspoon
2010-11-05, 06:00 PM
Darn, where is Doc Roc when we need him the most? Or a ToS veteran, that is.

I think the trick has to deal something with getting extra HD with Inspire Greatness, then be level drained or something similar, somehow making those phantom HD count as actual HD and get skill points out of it. I reckon that's the trick more or less, though it's really flimsy. And pure TO at its best.

Gain extra HD. Get Psychic Reformation'd so you can reassign your skill points. Put your skill points into the skills you need higher. No extra skill points involved, just shuffling the ones you already have so you can get skill ranks beyond what your normal caps would be.

mucat
2010-11-05, 06:44 PM
This requires an especially generous DM. From Unearthed Arcana, page 91:
All early-entry tricks require an especially generous DM.

If a player wants early entry to a dual-advanceent class, they're welcome to tell me, "Look, this class is underpowered as it is, but I like the flavor. Can we rework the entry requirements?" And I'll be happy to work with them, depending on the overall Tier level of the party. (A "standard" Wiz 3 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge x is probably a Tier-2 or Tier-3 character. If that's in line with the other characters in the campaign, no need to change anything. If the others are Tier-1, I'll help the player rewrite the entry requirements.)

But if the player takes some convoluted set of feats and class choices without consulting me about their plans, then hits level 4 and smirks triumphantly that I "have to" let them into the prestige class two levels early, then I'm gonna be a stickler for RAI. The person who wrote the precocious apprentice feat and the person who wrote the Mystic Theurge requirements weren't taking one another into account; the "clever" player who exploits this is just being a pain in the ass with an entitlement complex..

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-05, 07:50 PM
Myself, I've simply dropped the entry requirements to MT to allow entry into the class at level 3 anyway (i.e. the prerquisites is now 1st arcane/1st divine casting). It's not any more broken at higher level, and indeed, the spike in CL is better at lower level where it is a) better for the lower level character and b) means the progression of the higher-level spells is more staggered and thus microcosmically more balanced!

I'm actually slowly doing this to a lot of basically hybrid class like MT or Cerebremancer that don't do much apart from progress two classes, and I'm making a few more up to cover the gaps (like divine/rogue-ish or clr/drd multiclasses). I'm starting to call these "hybrid" rather than "prestidge" classes as they are subtly different in that their aim is not to give you new stuff but advance two classes for a concept from as early as possible.

FMArthur
2010-11-05, 08:15 PM
Full Archivist or Wizard progression is worth giving up a caster level for. I would even say such a thing would always be worth it if it only ever cost you a single caster level. Normal Mystic Theurge takes two thoroughly broken classes and tones them down for an interesting and versatile blend. A Mystic Theurge you enter 4 levels early is just multiplying the power of two thoroughly broken classes by one another. :smallconfused:

I wouldn't offer such a thing to any player unless everyone else was pulling off lots of cheese too.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-05, 08:20 PM
The Codex Anathema in Lords of Madness gives you +5 ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering), and +2 ranks in arcana and the planes. It's a useful trick.

mucat
2010-11-05, 08:26 PM
The Codex Anathema in Lords of Madness gives you +5 ranks in Knowledge (dungeoneering), and +2 ranks in arcana and the planes. It's a useful trick.

If you want an actual boost to skill rolls, it's useful.

If you want early entry to prestige classes...well, if early entry the that class would improve the campaign, then the DM would have offered to rewrite the requirements on request. If it would not, then a competent DM will tell you exactly what to do with your obscure magic item... :smalleek:

Welknair
2010-11-05, 08:42 PM
It kinda avoids the issue of
Stab out your eyes for a feat. Regenerate. Free feat.

It says in the flaw that you lose the feat if you ever regain your sight.

So, if someone cured him, he'd lose all his power...

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-06, 06:53 AM
Full Archivist or Wizard progression is worth giving up a caster level for. I would even say such a thing would always be worth it if it only ever cost you a single caster level. Normal Mystic Theurge takes two thoroughly broken classes and tones them down for an interesting and versatile blend. A Mystic Theurge you enter 4 levels early is just multiplying the power of two thoroughly broken classes by one another. :smallconfused:

I wouldn't offer such a thing to any player unless everyone else was pulling off lots of cheese too.

Actually, it doesn't make MT any more powerful, unless you make MT not a 10-level class. Dropping the level you ENTER it doesn't increase the total caster levels at the end, just that you FINISH the class earlier. At 20th caster levels are still 15/15 (or whatever your chosen spilt is). The difference is a less difficult character to play before level 7 and a slower progression of the high level spells. Because you've finished MT by 12th level with 11/11 casting, it means you get 7th plus spells more slowly, due to you having to take normal class progression again.

Entry at 3rd puts you one caster level behind the full caster until level 12 (when you drop off more rapidly) as opposed to being three levels behind during the low-level phase. Normal MTs have to struggle through with only 2nd level spells until 9th level, by which time the full casters are throwing around 5th level spells. So, if you're concerned about game-breaking, the full casters are going to be way more problematic that MTs, whenever you enter the class.

Ravens_cry
2010-11-06, 07:24 AM
That's really assuming the campaign goes that far. I have been in full fledged professionally published campaigns that end at level 13, and never one that went to 20, so early entry mystic thuerge would be a huge increase in options at a somewhat reduced power level. And there has to be some other divine/arcane theurge class you can take after mystic theurge.

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-06, 07:36 AM
That's really assuming the campaign goes that far. I have been in full fledged professionally published campaigns that end at level 13, and never one that went to 20, so early entry mystic thuerge would be a huge increase in options at a somewhat reduced power level. And there has to be some other divine/arcane theurge class you can take after mystic theurge.

If it doesn't got very high level, with normal progression, there's very little reason to have MT at all, if you're not going to get much out of it. Spending the first half of the campaign sucking is not good. (Compared to other casters, which should be the metric a full-caster PrC should be measuring against, not fighters. Which, I will admit, I also significantly boost.)

I'm not aware of any other theurge classes, otherwise, you'd likely take them instead of MT, since it has no other features apart from the dual-casting.

For the record, the four campaigns I'm running or planning to run next will be ending in the 17-Epic level range. So in my case, it will go on that long.

WarKitty
2010-11-06, 07:40 AM
I sometimes think people on this forum forget there's other reasons to take a class than how much power it provides...

Ravens_cry
2010-11-06, 07:43 AM
I sometimes think people on this forum forget there's other reasons to take a class than how much power it provides...
*gets out the fire extinguisher and gets ready to call emergency services*

dragonsamurai77
2010-11-06, 08:13 AM
It says in the flaw that you lose the feat if you ever regain your sight.

So, if someone cured him, he'd lose all his power...

That just made we wonder something: If you lose a feat by neutralizing a flaw, and that feat was a prereq for a PrC you already have levels in, what happens?

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-06, 08:18 AM
I sometimes think people on this forum forget there's other reasons to take a class than how much power it provides...

Let's face it, MT doesn't have much on the way of flavour. I don't think there's anyone who plays an MT for the PrC flavour (unlike many other PrCs which are much more conceptually flavourful). You play as mystic theurge because you want to cast arcane and divine spells, which is the one and only thing MT actually gives you. I just don't think that you should be penalised until 7th level for wanting to play that (especially in a mid-to-high optimisation like I play in).

Ravens_cry
2010-11-06, 08:20 AM
That just made we wonder something: If you lose a feat by neutralizing a flaw, and that feat was a prereq for a PrC you already have levels in, what happens?

You lose all benefits of the prestige class. In short, you're deep in the guano.

WarKitty
2010-11-06, 08:23 AM
Let's face it, MT doesn't have much on the way of flavour. I don't think there's anyone who plays an MT for the PrC flavour (unlike many other PrCs which are much more conceptually flavourful). You play as mystic theurge because you want to cast arcane and divine spells, which is the one and only thing MT actually gives you. I just don't think that you should be penalised until 7th level for wanting to play that (especially in a mid-to-high optimisation like I play in).

"I want to cast arcane and divine spells" is in and of itself a choice that can be made for flavor. But yes, you are right that you shouldn't be penalized for it.

Ravens_cry
2010-11-06, 08:28 AM
"I want to cast arcane and divine spells" is in and of itself a choice that can be made for flavor. But yes, you are right that you shouldn't be penalized for it.
Penalized as brutally as you are? Maybe not. But your getting the biggest, most twisting the game-iest, part of the game, spells, from two usually disparate sources. While balance isn't my main concern, why shouldn't you get some reduction in capability in exchange for diversity?

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-06, 08:30 AM
"I want to cast arcane and divine spells" is in and of itself a choice that can be made for flavor. But yes, you are right that you shouldn't be penalized for it.

This is my I'm looking at things like MT as hybrid classes to opposed to PrC, things that should be slightly behind the full-progression classes, but don't give you anything new. Meaning you can play your concept from lower level.

(One of the others I did a while back on these very boards was the Skulking Theurge, a divine/ (rogue or ninja or scout) PrC, something that was painfully lacking before even with Rich's Divine Trickster. And it got put right into use. Hell, I wish I'd used it for my conversion of Night Below, because it would have made the numerous Kuo-Toa Whips (Clr/Rog) actually much more dangerous!)

The way I look at it is that casting multiclassing is pretty poor. AD&D had your fighter/mage or fighter/rogue only a level behind your full progression, so aiming for being 80-90% of your full progression sounds about right to me. (Instead of about 50%, which, barring MT and it's like, you tend to get otherwise.) So, like a lot of other bits of D&D which need a boost (e.g Fighters, Rogues, Monks) I give 'em a leg-up.

WarKitty
2010-11-06, 08:34 AM
Penalized as brutally as you are? Maybe not. But your getting the biggest, most twisting the game-iest, part of the game, spells, from two usually disparate sources. While balance isn't my main concern, why shouldn't you get some reduction in capability in exchange for diversity?

True, depending on the classes. The original character I was thinking of was bard/favored soul, which doesn't get you quite as much game-breaking power, plus you lose your other bardic toys.


This is my I'm looking at things like MT as hybrid classes to opposed to PrC, things that should be slightly behind the full-progression classes, but don't give you anything new. Meaning you can play your concept from lower level.

(One of the others I did a while back on these very boards was the Skulking Theurge, a divine/ (rogue or ninja or scout) PrC, something that was painfully lacking before even with Rich's Divine Trickster. And it got put right into use. Hell, I wish I'd used it for my conversion of Night Below, because it would have made the numerous Kuo-Toa Whips (Clr/Rog) actually much more dangerous!)

The way I look at it is that casting multiclassing is pretty poor. AD&D had your fighter/mage or fighter/rogue only a level behind your full progression, so aiming for being 80-90% of your full progression sounds about right to me. (Instead of about 50%, which, barring MT and it's like, you tend to get otherwise.) So, like a lot of other bits of D&D which need a boost (e.g Fighters, Rogues, Monks) I give 'em a leg-up.

This seems to be a pervasive problem with 3.5. There are a lot of really cool builds that require a pretty heavy initial investment, which means if you're playing a 1-20 game you have to put up with several levels of being use-impaired.

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-06, 08:44 AM
Penalized as brutally as you are? Maybe not. But your getting the biggest, most twisting the game-iest, part of the game, spells, from two usually disparate sources. While balance isn't my main concern, why shouldn't you get some reduction in capability in exchange for diversity?

You are. You're losing a spellcaster class level - so you'll be getting your next level of spells a level later than a full-class of the same type. That's actually not trivial, and quite important at bottom level, since you are less likely to be able to have invested in Practised Spellcaster for both classes to increase at least CL.

Also, though it's a more minor issue for casters unles they're going for melee or ranged touch builds, you don't get BAB - at all - until level 4. (Three +0 at 1st-level progressions...)



Basically, though, the question is, "how far behind the full caster should the progression be". The basic MT's is really too far; dropping it to 3rd level entry makes it one level behind, which I think is a good spot.

You could maybe argue for making it 5th level, (but writing the pre-reqs for that would be hard to do without making it a bit too open to abuse), and where else are you going to have the break?

Ravens_cry
2010-11-06, 09:23 AM
OK some loss, I can dig that. In fact, that was kind of my point. I actually agree that by default without full cheese, it's too hard to go Theurge.

Jack_Simth
2010-11-06, 09:51 AM
That just made we wonder something: If you lose a feat by neutralizing a flaw, and that feat was a prereq for a PrC you already have levels in, what happens?

You lose all benefits of the prestige class. In short, you're deep in the guano.
Sort of.

See, in the 3.0 DMG, that was explicit in the PrC header.
In the 3.5 DMG, that clause was removed.
In a few of the earlier Completes (such as Complete Warrior), the PrC information was copied from the 3.0 DMG, rather than the 3.5 DMG, and includes the 'you lose all benefits' rule... the later Completes don't.

So it really depends on the DM.

But nobody likes it when the Blackguard becomes a Fighter without bonus feats because some nutty wizard hit him with Ray of Enfeeblement, and brought his strength below 13, losing him Power Attack, Cleave, and Improved Sunder ... and thus, the requirements for Blackguard. Likewise, nobody likes what happens to the Dragon Disciple-10 if you enforce that (level ten capstone says "You're now a half-dragon"; entry requirements say "any nondragon").

Glimbur
2010-11-06, 09:57 AM
Full Archivist or Wizard progression is worth giving up a caster level for. I would even say such a thing would always be worth it if it only ever cost you a single caster level. Normal Mystic Theurge takes two thoroughly broken classes and tones them down for an interesting and versatile blend. A Mystic Theurge you enter 4 levels early is just multiplying the power of two thoroughly broken classes by one another. :smallconfused:

I wouldn't offer such a thing to any player unless everyone else was pulling off lots of cheese too.

Taking Mystic Theurge does mean that you can't take any other PrC with your levels. You might not be too broken up about missing Master Specialist, but Archmage is pretty nice and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Incantarix, Divine Oracle, and a few other classes give you things that aren't easily replicated with spells. I agree that mystic theurge would be very strong, but I can see arguments for sticking with one kind of casting.

Psyren
2010-11-06, 10:08 AM
But nobody likes it when the Blackguard becomes a Fighter without bonus feats because some nutty wizard hit him with Ray of Enfeeblement, and brought his strength below 13, losing him Power Attack, Cleave, and Improved Sunder ... and thus, the requirements for Blackguard. Likewise, nobody likes what happens to the Dragon Disciple-10 if you enforce that (level ten capstone says "You're now a half-dragon"; entry requirements say "any nondragon").

I'd like to note that all you lose if you fail to qualify for a PrC under this rule are "special abilities" - meaning everything in that column of the PrC table. You do not lose spellcasting or BAB, so a neutralized Blackguard would not instantly turn into a fighter; he'd still have all his Blackguard spells.

He would lose his sneak attack, auras, command undead etc.

Loki_42
2010-11-06, 10:18 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm You only need 6 ranks in Know: Arcana and Know: Religion. Assuming you can get an 18 Int, you can get 4 ranks in each at level one, and then use your next to levels to finish that out.
Edit: Score, I'm a halfling!

WarKitty
2010-11-06, 10:21 AM
My main issue with MT: it sucks even worse if you want to use spontaneous casting classes. All the dual-casting classes have this issue, because spontaneous classes get spell levels later and thus take longer to qualify.

dragonsamurai77
2010-11-06, 10:23 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm You only need 6 ranks in Know: Arcana and Know: Religion. Assuming you can get an 18 Int, you can get 4 ranks in each at level one, and then use your next to levels to finish that out.
Edit: Score, I'm a halfling!

Nope, because if you meet the prereqs at Level 3, you can't take the PrC until 4.

Stallion
2010-11-06, 11:53 AM
Taking Mystic Theurge does mean that you can't take any other PrC with your levels. You might not be too broken up about missing Master Specialist, but Archmage is pretty nice and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Incantarix, Divine Oracle, and a few other classes give you things that aren't easily replicated with spells. I agree that mystic theurge would be very strong, but I can see arguments for sticking with one kind of casting.

Actually, you could go with Frost Mage. The spellcasting advancement just says +1 existing class..... who says that class can't be Mystic Theurge? Sure, it's abilities aren't worldbendingly amazing (Natural armor increase, a mediocre summoning spell progression, cold resistance [cold subtype if you really want it], free Piercing Cold, free knowledge of the Frostfell spell), but it's free stuff that allows you to keep the full spellcasting ability you'd have as a mystic theurge.

Coidzor
2010-11-06, 01:30 PM
Taking Mystic Theurge does mean that you can't take any other PrC with your levels. You might not be too broken up about missing Master Specialist, but Archmage is pretty nice and Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, Incantarix, Divine Oracle, and a few other classes give you things that aren't easily replicated with spells. I agree that mystic theurge would be very strong, but I can see arguments for sticking with one kind of casting.

Class Features: They're what set PCs apart from Fighters.

Warkitty: Are you sure you're not misapplying your issue with spontaneous casters in general to this set of circumstances? :smallwink:

tyckspoon
2010-11-06, 01:34 PM
Actually, you could go with Frost Mage. The spellcasting advancement just says +1 existing class..... who says that class can't be Mystic Theurge? Sure, it's abilities aren't worldbendingly amazing (Natural armor increase, a mediocre summoning spell progression, cold resistance [cold subtype if you really want it], free Piercing Cold, free knowledge of the Frostfell spell), but it's free stuff that allows you to keep the full spellcasting ability you'd have as a mystic theurge.

'Existing Class' in this context means one that has its own spellcasting progression, such as casting base classes, Ur-Priest, and Sublime Chord (unless Frost Mage has a particularly bizarre wording of its casting advancement feature, which I unfortunately don't have the time to go really check right now.) Mystic Theurge builds in general would be much more strongly regarded if you could do what you suggest, as you could finish them with Incantatrix, Seven Veils, or any of the other common power PrCs.

Stallion
2010-11-06, 01:53 PM
Seven Veils specifically says "+1 existing arcane spellcasting class". Not too sure about Incantrix, but I'd be willing to bet it says the same thing, or at least something similar. Now Frost Mage, on the other hand, just says "+1 existing class". No specification as to whether or not it has to be arcane or divine. It doesn't specify as to what spellcasting class is advanced in the description section, other than choosing which class is to be advanced if you have multiple spellcasting classes. I think it's pretty safe to say that Mystic Theurge is a spellcasting class.

The danger in that wording is that it's so open ended and leaves the player with a choice with that much freedom. Now, a DM may disagree, but just coming from the text, I don't see why you couldn't choose to advance your spellcasting as a mystic theurge.

Psyren
2010-11-06, 01:58 PM
The danger in that wording is that it's so open ended and leaves the player with a choice with that much freedom. Now, a DM may disagree, but just coming from the text, I don't see why you couldn't choose to advance your spellcasting as a mystic theurge.

Mystic Theurge doesn't have spellcasting; It advances two pre-existing base classes. You can't extend it by tacking on any other PrC you choose on top - you need another theurge that advances the two base casting classes, like True Necromancer or Arcane Hierophant.

You are correct, however, in that Frost Mage can be applied to either a divine or arcane class. (Though you still need arcane spells and Knowledge: Arcana to enter, so there's little reason to do so for a divine class.)

WarKitty
2010-11-06, 02:02 PM
Warkitty: Are you sure you're not misapplying your issue with spontaneous casters in general to this set of circumstances? :smallwink:

It's possible. I do like them however, and in most cases getting spells the level later doesn't hurt much (unless you have, say, a wizard and sorc in the same party).

I have a specific build that, like I said, works around a combined bard/favored soul. We were working under a house rule that class skills for any class you have are class skills for all your levels. Still, getting in to MT without alternate spell source cheese is even worse, since you don't get your 2nd level spells until 4th level with spontaneous. Even with alternate spell source, having to wait till level 6 instead of 4 to make your concept work is really annoying.

Jack_Simth
2010-11-06, 02:10 PM
I'd like to note that all you lose if you fail to qualify for a PrC under this rule are "special abilities" - meaning everything in that column of the PrC table. You do not lose spellcasting or BAB, so a neutralized Blackguard would not instantly turn into a fighter; he'd still have all his Blackguard spells.

He would lose his sneak attack, auras, command undead etc.
Isn't spellcasting a special ability? We're getting into some rather fine details on what is and isn't included, though.

Gnaeus
2010-11-06, 02:20 PM
The way I look at it is that casting multiclassing is pretty poor. AD&D had your fighter/mage or fighter/rogue only a level behind your full progression, so aiming for being 80-90% of your full progression sounds about right to me. (Instead of about 50%, which, barring MT and it's like, you tend to get otherwise.) So, like a lot of other bits of D&D which need a boost (e.g Fighters, Rogues, Monks) I give 'em a leg-up.

Yes. But AD&D multiclassing also gimped your hp to the point where the fighter wizard couldn't fight, and arbitrarily stopped most multiclass characters from gaining levels at around 7-10 with the racial limits. So lets go the AD&D route, give MT 1d2+half con mod hp per level, prevent you from ever taking another class after you start it, and arbitrarily state that after ecl 9 you never gain another level. Normal entry MT is already more balanced than AD&D multiclassing.


I'm not aware of any other theurge classes, otherwise, you'd likely take them instead of MT, since it has no other features apart from the dual-casting.

Well, there is this class in Races of the Wild called Arcane Hierophant. Coupled with early entry Mystic Theurge, the build looks like Druid 3/Wizard 1/MT 4/ AH 10/MT 2 (unless fractional BAB is used, then Druid 3/Wizard 1/MT 3/AH 10/MT3. That casts as a level 17 wizard, level 19 druid, has 13 levels of wildshape and a 13/11th level animal companion/familiar. It is clearly stronger than straight druid for most of its progression, and clearly better than either druid or wizard at high levels. I would strongly argue that no legal class should be stronger than druid or wizard through most of its progression.


All early-entry tricks require an especially generous DM.

If a player wants early entry to a dual-advanceent class, they're welcome to tell me, "Look, this class is underpowered as it is, but I like the flavor. Can we rework the entry requirements?" And I'll be happy to work with them, depending on the overall Tier level of the party. (A "standard" Wiz 3 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge x is probably a Tier-2 or Tier-3 character. If that's in line with the other characters in the campaign, no need to change anything. If the others are Tier-1, I'll help the player rewrite the entry requirements.)

But if the player takes some convoluted set of feats and class choices without consulting me about their plans, then hits level 4 and smirks triumphantly that I "have to" let them into the prestige class two levels early, then I'm gonna be a stickler for RAI. The person who wrote the precocious apprentice feat and the person who wrote the Mystic Theurge requirements weren't taking one another into account; the "clever" player who exploits this is just being a pain in the ass with an entitlement complex..

I do not believe that I have ever read a post which I agreed with more.



But nobody likes it when the Blackguard becomes a Fighter without bonus feats because some nutty wizard hit him with Ray of Enfeeblement, and brought his strength below 13, losing him Power Attack, Cleave, and Improved Sunder ... and thus, the requirements for Blackguard.

Actually, I like that just fine. Clever use of a spell.

WarKitty
2010-11-06, 02:28 PM
All early-entry tricks require an especially generous DM.

If a player wants early entry to a dual-advanceent class, they're welcome to tell me, "Look, this class is underpowered as it is, but I like the flavor. Can we rework the entry requirements?" And I'll be happy to work with them, depending on the overall Tier level of the party. (A "standard" Wiz 3 / Cleric 3 / Mystic Theurge x is probably a Tier-2 or Tier-3 character. If that's in line with the other characters in the campaign, no need to change anything. If the others are Tier-1, I'll help the player rewrite the entry requirements.)

But if the player takes some convoluted set of feats and class choices without consulting me about their plans, then hits level 4 and smirks triumphantly that I "have to" let them into the prestige class two levels early, then I'm gonna be a stickler for RAI. The person who wrote the precocious apprentice feat and the person who wrote the Mystic Theurge requirements weren't taking one another into account; the "clever" player who exploits this is just being a pain in the ass with an entitlement complex..

Early-entry tricks are for those of us stuck with RAW-stickler DMs. :smallbiggrin:

Dunno if anyone thought of this, but I also ask why a player wants that and try to gauge what Tier they're actually playing the class at. The bard/favored soul I had? The sole purpose of the favored soul levels was to heal things without burning my bardic slots. (Low-wealth campaign)

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-06, 02:48 PM
Well, there is this class in Races of the Wild called Arcane Hierophant. Coupled with early entry Mystic Theurge, the build looks like Druid 3/Wizard 1/MT 4/ AH 10/MT 2 (unless fractional BAB is used, then Druid 3/Wizard 1/MT 3/AH 10/MT3. That casts as a level 17 wizard, level 19 druid, has 13 levels of wildshape and a 13/11th level animal companion/familiar. It is clearly stronger than straight druid for most of its progression, and clearly better than either druid or wizard at high levels. I would strongly argue that no legal class should be stronger than druid or wizard through most of its progression.

There is a reason why I've never used any of the "Races of" books...

Which would be why I'm not aware of the class. Frankly, I think that seems far more to be a problem with arcane heirophant (advancing ALL the druid's decent class features AND dual full casting) than with it's combination with MT.



For the record, Precocious Apprentise is not a feat on my approved list (and I'm fairly sure the way/feats you'd use to gain the skill ranks for early entry to unmodified MT aren't either.) So, aside from my having dropped the entry requirements (which I did relatively recently), you couldn't qualify for early entry.

Gnaeus
2010-11-06, 03:19 PM
There is a reason why I've never used any of the "Races of" books...

Which would be why I'm not aware of the class. Frankly, I think that seems far more to be a problem with arcane heirophant (advancing ALL the druid's decent class features AND dual full casting) than with it's combination with MT.


Much like MT, the brokenness of AH stems from early entry. If you have to lose 3 entire caster levels (and 3 levels of AC/WS) for it, it isn't anything special. (Standard builds, Druid 4/Wizard 3/AH 10/MT 3 or Druid 3/Wizard 3/MT 2/AH 10/MT2). Clearly weaker than straight druid for most things, with a few very weak levels.

FMArthur
2010-11-06, 04:26 PM
I felt like I needed to step in and 'fix' Mystic Theurge as a DM with a straight "at least 2 levels in each class" requirement. It's worked well. I think doing dual-progression with only a 1-level dip in the secondary casting class is too powerful, and the 3-level method is too weak. 2 is just right.

But this thread isn't about houserules, and I don't think a 2-level investment is something that ever happens outside of houserules because entry is based on spell levels, so it's a moot point. Mystic Theurges are either going to be overpowered or underpowered played as written, and every game I've seen one played by RAW confirms this. :smallfrown: