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View Full Version : [3.P] What is the point of Spell Resistance (SR)?



Endarire
2010-11-06, 03:36 AM
I know what SR does, or at least, should do, which is block spells.

There are so many ways to bypass or negate SR that SR, especially beatable SR, seems like a waste.

Seemingly, the main reason SR exists is to hamper blasters, but even some boom spells like orb of fire don't check SR.

What is your take on this?

HunterOfJello
2010-11-06, 03:40 AM
If you gallivant around in a world where people can shoot fireballs at you, it's nice to get protection from that sort of thing.

Eloel
2010-11-06, 03:42 AM
If you gallivant around in a world where people can shoot fireballs at you, it's nice to get protection from that sort of thing.

Except SR doesn't provide enough protection to be relevant.

Edit:
Even AMF is barely a hindrance to the enemy casters, let alone perfect magic-protection.

ffone
2010-11-06, 05:31 AM
I know what SR does, or at least, should do, which is block spells.

There are so many ways to bypass or negate SR that SR, especially beatable SR, seems like a waste.

Seemingly, the main reason SR exists is to hamper blasters, but even some boom spells like orb of fire don't check SR.

What is your take on this?

A common confusion on this board:

Just because X can be gotten around, doesn't mean it will be. Most campaigns are not PvP matches where you know the other person's build.

If your DM is metagaming and designing every encounter to get around SR b/c your PC has SR, that's a bigger issue that the worth of SR specifically. Unless your PC's SR is obvious (drow?), enemy casters casting Assay Resistance all the time or always using SR: No spells is highly suspicious.

If your DM is doing this but with good in game reasons (your PC has gained notoriety, and most encounters are with NPCs hunting the party and who know about your PC's SR), your party will need to deal with this somehow (and it's a broader issue than SR, but not in a 'bad way' n this case.)

Also, even if your SR never blocks something, it may've come in handy - the NPC who saw your drow face may've cast an SR No spell, but he might've had better SR Yes spells he would've used against you otherwise. Opportunity cost. If this is not the case some percentage of the time in the long run, your DM is probably metagaming, which is a big issue - bu the 'good news' is such a DM would probably metagame against your build no matter what, and you're not being singly persecuted for investing in SR.

If it's a normal campaign, a certain percentage of enemies will be using SR Yes spells and spell-like abilities, and you'll block some percentage of them. That's a nice ability, akin to a save bonus (how much save bonus you consider it worth depends on the campaign's frequency or Su vs Sp, SR Yes vs No, save vs no save spells, and so on). Worth varies by campaign. Typical SR sources like monk and drow will block about half of the spells of same-level / Cr-appropriate enemies, and most offensive spells and Sps are SR Yes. That's nice. May not be worth +2 LA or the monk class to you, but it may be worth casts of the Spell Resistance spell before your party goes and attacks some enemy they suspect to use such abilities.

Starbuck_II
2010-11-06, 05:31 AM
Except SR doesn't provide enough protection to be relevant.

Edit:
Even AMF is barely a hindrance to the enemy casters, let alone perfect magic-protection.

Globe of Invulnerability cares not about SR.

SR is there as a way for NPCs to need PCs. But only PCs who aren't new to the game.

Runestar
2010-11-06, 06:12 AM
Even if your party can readily bypass sr, it still means that they have invested resources in doing so. Arcane mastery/spell penetration are feats which could have been spent on other feats, assay resistance is a 4th lv slot which is still a significant investment for lower lv casters, though it is certainly peanuts at high lvs.

I have little to say about orb spells, save that they don't really deal that much damage (though the debuff effect is nice). :smallredface:

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-11-06, 06:37 AM
Even if your party can readily bypass sr, it still means that they have invested resources in doing so. Arcane mastery/spell penetration are feats which could have been spent on other feats, assay resistance is a 4th lv slot which is still a significant investment for lower lv casters, though it is certainly peanuts at high lvs.

I have little to say about orb spells, save that they don't really deal that much damage (though the debuff effect is nice). :smallredface:Like any blaster, an orb-based blaster requires the right metamagic to shine, and the right metamagic abuse to break. See the mailman.

Sure, at lower op, you don't see the mailman. But at lower op, a simple ~35 damage fort save or lose a round is very nice, and SR: No is icing.

Amphetryon
2010-11-06, 06:42 AM
In games without hyper-optimization, SR works as a mixture of an "ignore mooks" ability and a sort of Blur against magic. It may only be 20% effective, but that doesn't entirely negate its value. Nor, in my opinion and experience, does the fact that defenses against it exist, as there are few things in 3.X to which this does not apply. People love Daze, and it's quite possible to be immune, after all.

BridgeCity
2010-11-06, 06:47 AM
I've always felt that it shows your character is getting stronger. It would suck if it was just as easy for a level one wizard to hit you with spells as it is for a level 10 wizard. Maybe its not going to stop equal-level enemies from hitting you with spells, but its not like armour stops everyone from hitting you either does it? I look at it as a way to show that the creatures or enemies you have surpassed now actually do find it harder to fight you because you are a stronger character.

Saph
2010-11-06, 06:59 AM
A common confusion on this board:

Just because X can be gotten around, doesn't mean it will be. Most campaigns are not PvP matches where you know the other person's build.

This.

First point: if you go and count them up, you'll find that the majority of offensive spells are SR: Yes. SR isn't supposed to make you invulnerable to enemy spellcasters, in the same way that AC isn't supposed to make you invulnerable to enemy fighters. What it does is limit the other guy's options.

Second point: most creatures do not carry flashing signs above their heads with lists of their defences. You generally have to guess how good an enemy's SR is. The only way to never lose a spell to SR is to never cast an offensive spell that allows it. Given that the main strength of casters is versatility, this is a significant nerf.

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-06, 07:02 AM
SR is great for the big bosses, because it's usually high enough to worry the PCs. (And not every PC spellcaster takes both Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration.) While there are plenty of spells that bypass it, there are more that don't.

Otherwise, it might save the odd flunky - or PC - once it a while. One of my players in a high-level camapign has SR of about 15 or something from an item. Due to the level of the enemies, I had to roll, like a 1 for it to work. But the one time it did, it literally saved his life from being barbequed by three simultaneous Energy Rays, as only two of them affected him.

It depends of the level of spellcasting opposition (on PCs) and the amount of enemies with SR (for the PCs) if you play in a game with loads of enemy casters, SR becomes useful because not everything is going to get through (as not everyone has access to SR: No spells no will know to use them if they have 'em.) If there's loads of SR enemies, on the one hand, the PCs are more likely to be prepared to deal with them, but on the other, if they have to use SR: Yes, spells, there's more chance it won't work. (Non-wizard-spell-list-casters, for example, generally tend to have less SR: No spells.)

Runestar
2010-11-06, 07:15 AM
Are we talking about the usefulness of sr on npcs against players, or sr for players (which is fairly rare)?

Sr for players is somewhat of a mixed blessing. Foes tend to have a harder time overcoming sr, so it remains moderately useful against them, but sr will also interfere with beneficial spells cast on you, such as haste or cure spells (though if your wizard is optimized to overcome sr... )


Second point: most creatures do not carry flashing signs above their heads with lists of their defences. You generally have to guess how good an enemy's SR is.

Arcane mastery + assay resistance automatically lets my wizard overcome sr = caster lv+20 or less.:smallamused:

Saph
2010-11-06, 07:17 AM
Arcane mastery + assay resistance automatically lets my wizard overcome sr = caster lv+20 or less.:smallamused:

Not every character is a wizard, not every wizard has Arcane Mastery, and burning a swift action and a 4th-level spell on every opponent you fight is a fairly significant cost. SR can be overcome, just like most defences, but that doesn't mean it's useless.

Or to put it another way: if you're putting that many resources into overcoming SR you should be able to beat it reliably! If you casting Quickened True Strike before every attack, you won't find concealment very hard to beat, but that doesn't mean there's no point getting it.

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-06, 07:40 AM
Not every character is a wizard, not every wizard has Arcane Mastery, and burning a swift action and a 4th-level spell on every opponent you fight is a fairly significant cost. SR can be overcome, just like most defences, but that doesn't mean it's useless.

Or to put it another way: if you're putting that many resources into overcoming SR you should be able to beat it reliably! If you casting Quickened True Strike before every attack, you won't find concealment very hard to beat, but that doesn't mean there's no point getting it.

Exactly. Assay SR doesn't help everyone. AND you have to spend a round casting it, instead of doing something else. (And in my games, most combats don't last above three-four rounds, so you don't always have time to burn.) And, if as Spah says, you're sinking feats and spells and equipment into beating SR, then you should be able to beat it. But that's resources you could have used elsewhere, and if you don't run into anything with SR, you've wasted in the investment.

Runestar
2010-11-06, 08:01 AM
Exactly. Assay SR doesn't help everyone. AND you have to spend a round casting it, instead of doing something else. (And in my games, most combats don't last above three-four rounds, so you don't always have time to burn.) And, if as Spah says, you're sinking feats and spells and equipment into beating SR, then you should be able to beat it. But that's resources you could have used elsewhere, and if you don't run into anything with SR, you've wasted in the investment.

Assay resistance is a swift action to cast, though it affects only 1 creature per casting, and so tends to be less efficient when facing multiple foes with sr.

I did raise a similar point earlier, but am now wondering if overcoming sr is simply too easy. Say I am a lv15+ spellcaster with tons of 4th+ lv slots to burn. Should I automatically be allowed to ignore a foe's sr simply by taking a feat, and expending a 4th lv slot per encounter?

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-06, 08:11 AM
Assay resistance is a swift action to cast, though it affects only 1 creature per casting, and so tends to be less efficient when facing multiple foes with sr.

I did raise a similar point earlier, but am now wondering if overcoming sr is simply too easy. Say I am a lv15+ spellcaster with tons of 4th+ lv slots to burn. Should I automatically be allowed to ignore a foe's sr simply by taking a feat, and expending a 4th lv slot per encounter?

Sure, because you've spent resources in learning to do so. You could be doing other things with your Swift action, for one. And, if you end up having to cast it more than once, you either use a lot of your 4th level slots (which can be used for other things) or you'll run out. Either way, you'll have been using the resources on beating SR you could have used for something else. I.e. because you've committed to bypassing it THAT IN ITSELF makes it worhtwhile because you've done that even if it never actually stops a spell.

SR is certainly not something I'd class as a serious defense, but, like Amphetryon said, it's a migitator that can reduce things on occasion. It might catch the odd thing occasionally, but it's worth it for that.

Psyren
2010-11-06, 09:32 AM
It's miss chance for spells, ergo worth it.

And while yes, there are "SR: No" spells out there, they tend not to be the nastier stuff like mind control, Power Word: Gib, Ray of Negative Levels etc.

Gaiyamato
2010-11-06, 09:46 AM
I discoered only tonight just how worthless SR is at high levels even against mages who dont invest in bypassing or beating SR. Even my best efforts to get a decent SR still failed against a mage of roughly my same level more than 90% of the time.
SR is a total waste of time above about level 10.

Emmerask
2010-11-06, 10:01 AM
I discoered only tonight just how worthless SR is at high levels even against mages who dont invest in bypassing or beating SR. Even my best efforts to get a decent SR still failed against a mage of roughly my same level more than 90% of the time.
SR is a total waste of time above about level 10.

lets see...
The Spell Resistance spell gives you 12 + caster level sr
If said mage has the same casterlevel and nothing to increase his check he needs to roll atleast a 12 with a d20

Or if you will he has a 55% chance to fail beating the sr :smallwink:

Wow, that really took some huge effort on my part :smallbiggrin:

Crow
2010-11-06, 10:18 AM
Spell resistance is like a bullet-resistant vest. It's limited in what it can protect, but if you have it, you may as well wear it, because you just never know.

The Glyphstone
2010-11-06, 10:35 AM
On this note, how would it affect balance if Spell Resistance was taken out and replaced by older edition's Magic Resistance, a flat percentage chance that a given monster would ignore a given spell entirely?

Gaiyamato
2010-11-06, 10:37 AM
No I had a template giving me 11+HD, but with LA adjustment I lost a couple of levels.
At each level the casters could get 1D20+HD no probs. With only Caster level boosts and nothing specific to SR they easily wound up ignoring my SR virtually every time.

Even if it had been even most SRs are not even to the standard of that spell.
Many of the SRs I read are 5+HD. Which will get you thrashed vs any half decent spellcaster of the same level 9 times out 10.

Below level 10 the bonuses are not going to be significant enough, so the dice still has a lot of say. After level 10 (or maybe more after 12 tbh) it just becomes and excercise in pointlessness.

Emmerask
2010-11-06, 10:47 AM
well even with 1 SR the enemy caster still has a 5% chance to fail which is good ^^

Of course the best way is to stack many different defenses but I wouldn´t miss out on sr even if its a last resort the enemy has a 10% chance to fail his roll thing :smallsmile:

Urpriest
2010-11-06, 10:48 AM
The point of SR is the same as that of DR and Energy Resistance. In order to model a wide range of monsters as diversely as possible the game needs to give them defenses of different relative strengths against different sorts of attacks. Since this isn't Pokemon we can't just make Flying weak to Electric or whatever. Instead, the game has as many different miscellaneous types of defenses as possible. Some have a big impact on fights, some don't, but they all do their simulationist job.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-06, 10:51 AM
The biggest problem with SR is the fact that it is extremely easy to boost caster level.

Emmerask
2010-11-06, 10:55 AM
The biggest problem with SR is the fact that it is extremely easy to boost caster level.

Which also boosts SR if you use the correct spells :smallwink:

Glimbur
2010-11-06, 10:57 AM
On this note, how would it affect balance if Spell Resistance was taken out and replaced by older edition's Magic Resistance, a flat percentage chance that a given monster would ignore a given spell entirely?

It would make it slightly harder to steamroll monsters you should be able to beat down because they are much weaker than your party, but you can do that via having the fighter hit it until it dies.

I'm more worried that it makes taking down a dragon, for example, with several hundred(or thousand) wizard 1's with magic missile slightly more feasible. Breath weapons and such still make this dangerous at best, but in general it means you have a nonzero chance of affecting anything which magic can affect regardless of your level. For this reason, I would recommend against this change.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-06, 11:07 AM
Which also boosts SR if you use the correct spells :smallwink:

True, it is a two-way street in some respects, but that doesn't preclude the SR: No options available. Divine casters also don't have quite as many CL boosts available, either, and just off the top of my head there are few arcane spells that grant SR. However, there are a lot of tricks for boosting arcane caster level to enormous proportions, such as Master Spellthief and Red Wizard.

The Glyphstone
2010-11-06, 11:14 AM
well even with 1 SR the enemy caster still has a 5% chance to fail which is good ^^

Of course the best way is to stack many different defenses but I wouldn´t miss out on sr even if its a last resort the enemy has a 10% chance to fail his roll thing :smallsmile:

What gives you this idea? Caster level checks are neither attack rolls nor saving throws, so natural 1's do not auto-fail when making them.

Flickerdart
2010-11-06, 11:14 AM
True, it is a two-way street in some respects, but that doesn't preclude the SR: No options available. Divine casters also don't have quite as many CL boosts available, either, and just off the top of my head there are few arcane spells that grant SR. However, there are a lot of tricks for boosting arcane caster level to enormous proportions, such as Master Spellthief and Red Wizard.
Divine casters have some of the best CL boosts - Greater Consumption Field and Beads of Karma.

Emmerask
2010-11-06, 11:15 AM
What gives you this idea? Caster level checks are neither attack rolls nor saving throws, so natural 1's do not auto-fail when making them.

Thats me again confusing our houserule with actual rules, my bad :smalleek:

Zherog
2010-11-06, 11:18 AM
Even if it had been even most SRs are not even to the standard of that spell.
Many of the SRs I read are 5+HD. Which will get you thrashed vs any half decent spellcaster of the same level 9 times out 10.

Meh. I'd rather have SR HD+5 than DR X/magic once I get past about 4th level/CR or so. Every time I see a mid- to high-level monster with DR X/magic, I chuckle, because that's about as useless as it gets (at least, against the PCs).


well even with 1 SR the enemy caster still has a 5% chance to fail which is good ^^

Nope. Rolling a 1 on a caster level check is not an auto-fail. A natural 1 is only an auto-fail for attacks and saves.

edit: damn non-sneaky ninjas...

AllisterH
2010-11-06, 11:57 AM
On this note, how would it affect balance if Spell Resistance was taken out and replaced by older edition's Magic Resistance, a flat percentage chance that a given monster would ignore a given spell entirely?

Actually, this is only true for 2nd edition.

1st edition had Magic resistance as well but it is closer to the 3.x model. In 1st edition, MR was a % chance that a 11th level mage could overcome. Every level above/below added a commensurate 5% to that chance.

The big reason why SR is not as a big a deal as previous editions is that there simply is to many ways around it...Items that boost CL, feats that help overcome SR and spells all make it much easier for SR to be beaten.

Given that in previous editions none of these apply (players have no control over items, no feats and spell acquisition is haphazard), SR was truly a roadblock....

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-11-06, 01:37 PM
It would make it slightly harder to steamroll monsters you should be able to beat down because they are much weaker than your party, but you can do that via having the fighter hit it until it dies.

I'm more worried that it makes taking down a dragon, for example, with several hundred(or thousand) wizard 1's with magic missile slightly more feasible. Breath weapons and such still make this dangerous at best, but in general it means you have a nonzero chance of affecting anything which magic can affect regardless of your level. For this reason, I would recommend against this change.

As AllisterH noted, the flat percentage is the 2e system. If we went with the 1e system, giving a dragon MR 50% would mean it's completely immune to 1st level casters (50% resistance for 11th-level caster -> 100% resistance for a 1st level caster). So it's much more of a "you must be this tall to play" sort of ability, like the old "you must have +X or better weapons to do any damage at all" abilities, but in the case of SR that could be a good thing.

AllisterH
2010-11-06, 01:47 PM
As AllisterH noted, the flat percentage is the 2e system. If we went with the 1e system, giving a dragon MR 50% would mean it's completely immune to 1st level casters (50% resistance for 11th-level caster -> 100% resistance for a 1st level caster). So it's much more of a "you must be this tall to play" sort of ability, like the old "you must have +X or better weapons to do any damage at all" abilities, but in the case of SR that could be a good thing.

And interestingly, many of those creatures WITH MR ALSO had the "need a +X t hit" requirement as well...

In a way, it was a crude/early method of the Tier structure seen in 4e.

Psyren
2010-11-06, 01:52 PM
Divine casters have some of the best CL boosts - Greater Consumption Field and Beads of Karma.

This. Clerics can boost much easier than Wizards, barring PrC stuff like Circle Magic.

The Eberron book Forge of War has some neat tricks regarding SR - there are rules for casters "focus-firing" an SR'ed target with readied actions, and each getting a boost to overcome his SR by doing so.

Aotrs Commander
2010-11-06, 02:01 PM
It also greatly depends on what the SR is. For PCs, there aren't very many ways of getting SR that's relaiably good (though Monk and Drow SR, at 11+HD aren't too bad). Most magic item SR, which is about, what 15, is pretty laughable at the time you get it. As is that of, say duegar.

Illithid SR, on the other hand at, 25+HD, is fracking awesome. To be a decent blanket defense, you need it at that sort of level. But most 3.x monsters have much lower SRs, as the designers seemed to have forgotten that it's actually okay to make the SR bleedin' hard for a level appropriate character to break through.

BeholderSlayer
2010-11-06, 02:53 PM
This. Clerics can boost much easier than Wizards, barring PrC stuff like Circle Magic.

Yes, Greater Consumptive Field is pretty good. Wizards can use it too though. Throw in circle magic, Master Spellthief, and Node Magic too. The Wizard's caster level quickly increases into the mid to high 200's, and that's without fully optimizing caster level.

Lapak
2010-11-06, 03:55 PM
Just as investing in bypassing SR allows a caster to get around it, investing wisely in increasing SR allows the defender to push it up to very respectable levels.

Like others have said, boosting the caster level on a spell-imbued SR can ramp it up well. If it's a priority, Incarnates can get an extremely respectable SR by investing a feat and a magic item slot; a fully-charged Spellward Shirt soulmeld can range from SR 13 at level one all the way to SR 37 at level 18 if that's where the Incarnate is focusing their power. SR of HD + 19 is nothing to scoff at, and an Incarnate can shift some of the resources involved to other areas when it's not needed.

So, yeah. Like most defenses, the utility varies wildly depending on how much you put into it and how much effort the opposition puts into bypassing it.

true_shinken
2010-11-06, 04:28 PM
On this note, how would it affect balance if Spell Resistance was taken out and replaced by older edition's Magic Resistance, a flat percentage chance that a given monster would ignore a given spell entirely?

It would be a step towards making melee useful again. Like dropping the Concentration skill.
Heck, AD&D was very good at this point.

ffone
2010-11-06, 05:19 PM
It also greatly depends on what the SR is. For PCs, there aren't very many ways of getting SR that's relaiably good (though Monk and Drow SR, at 11+HD aren't too bad). Most magic item SR, which is about, what 15, is pretty laughable at the time you get it. As is that of, say duegar.


If high level PCs are allowed to start with or 'commission'/'purchase' custom items, they can afford enough SR to be 100% vs level-appropriate encounters.

The default SR item is 10000 gp per point above 12, IIRC. Caster level checks for CR go up only slightly faster than one per level (faster b/c of feats and whatnot) - most spell(like-ability) using monsters have caster levels close to their CR - but PC wealth is exponential in level. (As is NPC wealth, at about 1/4 to 1/3 of that.)

stabbitty death
2010-11-07, 08:44 PM
I believe it is to resist spells:smallbiggrin:.