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View Full Version : What prerequisites do you wish you could get rid of?



WarKitty
2010-11-06, 10:07 AM
I'm aiming this primarily at people who either play entirely low-level games or at least start in the lower levels. The ones where your entire cool build isn't going to see play until at least level 12, and you're starting at level 1.

A couple examples of my own:
Augment Summoning and it's followup feats. Spell focus (conjuration) is useless.

Master of Many Forms: Great dip. Lousy prerequisites.

mucat
2010-11-06, 10:40 AM
Augment Summoning and it's followup feats. Spell focus (conjuration) is useless.

Not entirely. Grease, Glitterdust, Web, and Stinking Cloud are all Conjurations that allow a save, and they're staple low-level spells.

gallagher
2010-11-06, 10:42 AM
monastic training for a tash. build

WarKitty
2010-11-06, 10:45 AM
Not entirely. Grease, Glitterdust, Web, and Stinking Cloud are all Conjurations that allow a save, and they're staple low-level spells.

Ok, when you're playing a summoning-focused druid it's useless. Which is the build that allows the cool stuff that comes after Augment Summoning.

mucat
2010-11-06, 10:51 AM
Ok, when you're playing a summoning-focused druid it's useless. Which is the build that allows the cool stuff that comes after Augment Summoning.

Ah, point taken. I had a summoning-focused wizard in mind.

Glimbur
2010-11-06, 10:52 AM
Whirlwind Attack. There's no need for it to require Spring Attack et al.

For that matter, at the very least cut out Dodge from the Spring Attack line.

Darrin
2010-11-06, 11:31 AM
Augment Summoning and it's followup feats. Spell focus (conjuration) is useless.


There's a way around that. Take Planar Touchstone, link it to the Catalogues of Enlightenment (Planar Handbook) to pick up the Dragon Below domain power (Eberron Campaign Setting), and you get Augment Summoning as a bonus feat without having to take Spell Focus (Conjuration).

The prereqs that tend to boil my blood:

Alertness. Adventurers go into places where the ceilings, floors, and furniture attack them, and they can die from doing things like listening at doors (ear seekers). Can you seriously call any adventurer not "alert" to danger from sometimes bizarre directions? Likewise, a 1st level wizard is "alert" due to his familiar, but a 10th level ranger who maxes out his spot ranks without the feat is a heckuva lot more alert than someone who took a nearly useless "+2/+2" feat. Which one would you rather have on watch?

Weapon Expertise. There are a bunch of important tactical feats that require it, but Int < 13, sorry, *DENIED*.

Dodge + Mobility. Why are these always required together? Might as well combine them into the same feat.

mangosta71
2010-11-06, 11:36 AM
+1 BAB for Weapon Finesse. It's been said many times on these boards that the characters who typically get the most use from it don't get full BAB progression, and thus can't take it at level 1 by RAW.

Mystify
2010-11-06, 11:40 AM
Toughness. As a prerequisite for anything. Its possibly useful as a level one, but 3 extra hit points is a lousy return for a feat, esp. if you actually want to be tough. The improved toughness feat(I forget which book) is an extra hit point per hit dice, and is worthwhile. It is flat out better than toughness once you hit level 3 or higher, but things use toughness as a prereq.

mikethepoor
2010-11-06, 12:00 PM
I would get rid of Point Blank Shot being a prerequisite for Precise Shot. Having to take one feat to not be useless at ranged combat is rough enough, but two?

CockroachTeaParty
2010-11-06, 12:02 PM
I would get rid of Point Blank Shot being a prerequisite for Precise Shot. Having to take one feat to not be useless at ranged combat is rough enough, but two?

Still, realistically, it's harder to shoot something in the middle of a frenzied battle than to hit it with a big stick.

Marnath
2010-11-06, 12:07 PM
Still, realistically, it's harder to shoot something in the middle of a frenzied battle than to hit it with a big stick.

Yeah, but how is being good at shooting at close range related to not hitting your buddy?

WarKitty
2010-11-06, 12:07 PM
Still, realistically, it's harder to shoot something in the middle of a frenzied battle than to hit it with a big stick.

Realistically if your whole class idea is "shoot things," that should be part of your training. Not an extra feat you add on.

Another question: Many people have argued that useless or difficult prerequisites are there to balance out the more powerful PrC's/feats. Which may be true, but it still makes them highly impractical if you're not starting at that high a level. How would you redo the balance so you're not getting more powerful stuff for free, but you don't have to go through several levels of suck either?

Chrono22
2010-11-06, 12:13 PM
Well, I'd change power attack, combat expertise, and weapon finesse. Instead of being stand alone feats, character could gain the ability to use them for free as part of an attack action.
Fighting Defensively - you take a penalty up to your BAB on attack rolls for 1 round, to gain half that amount as a dodge bonus to armor class.
Power Attacking - you take a penalty up to your BAB on attack rolls for 1 round, and apply half of that amount as bonus damage to your attacks.
Finesse - A character wielding a light weapon can substitute his Dexterity bonus in place of his Strength bonus for attack rolls.

The feats themselves would just increase the benefits of these tactics to 1:1, and in the case of Weapon Finesse, you could choose to treat a specific weapon you are proficient with, as being a light weapon.

bloodtide
2010-11-06, 01:56 PM
Decipher script and Escape artist for Arcane Trickster.


Improved sunder for blackguards.

SurlySeraph
2010-11-06, 02:06 PM
BAB requirements greater than 5 tend to annoy me, especially when they undermine the advantages of the class. Divine Crusader gets fast casting progression - it seems to be intended for paladins who get to 7th level and say "Oh God, I should have been a cleric" - but since you can't enter until after 7th level you won't get 9th level spells before everyone else gets them. And since you can only cast spells from a single domain, you'll have nowhere near their versatility. And for that privilege, you get your BAB reduced to 3/4s and no useful class features.

Same with the ToB classes that require +10 BAB. Sure, Island in Time is cool, but it's not so overwhelming that a 15th-level character would break the game with it. Deepstone Sentinel is like a fixed Dwarven Defender... except that now even fewer dwarves can enter it. And why don't Ruby Knight Vindicators and Jade Phoenix Mages have to wait that long?

Useless prereq feats are annoying in general, but Dodge and Mobility in particular. The semi-useful feats that count as Dodge for prereqs help, but it's still annoying.

The Dark Fiddler
2010-11-06, 02:11 PM
Toughness. As a prerequisite for anything. Its possibly useful as a level one, but 3 extra hit points is a lousy return for a feat, esp. if you actually want to be tough. The improved toughness feat(I forget which book) is an extra hit point per hit dice, and is worthwhile. It is flat out better than toughness once you hit level 3 or higher, but things use toughness as a prereq.

Good thing Improved Toughness can replace Toughness as a prerequisite then, no?

Edit: At least, I thought, but reading the entry in Complete Warrior I can't seem to find that again. Possible I imagined it.

balistafreak
2010-11-06, 02:15 PM
Cooperative Spell for Mage of the Arcane Order is nothing but a straightup feat tax. I'm not saying Mage of the Arcane Order doesn't need a feat tax for what it accomplishes (Spellpool is awesome) but Cooperative Spell is such a useless feat, it's not even funny.

Coidzor
2010-11-06, 02:17 PM
Finesse - A character wielding a light weapon can substitute his Dexterity bonus in place of his Strength bonus for attack rolls.

The feats themselves would just increase the benefits of these tactics to 1:1, and in the case of Weapon Finesse, you could choose to treat a specific weapon you are proficient with, as being a light weapon.

Why bother keeping weapon finesse as a feat if it's effect only applies to one of the possible weapons? :smallyuk:

Chrono22
2010-11-06, 02:26 PM
So the halfling can use his dex with a spiked chain.:smallcool:

Urpriest
2010-11-06, 02:26 PM
10 ranks in heal for Graft Flesh. Works for monsters I guess, but the whole Fleshwarper PrC seems designed around the idea that it can be taken earlier. And it's such an awesome PrC, it's a shame you have to do such weird things to enter it.

gorfnab
2010-11-06, 02:27 PM
Point Blank Shot and Far Shot for Invisible Blade. Since the class doesn't allow you to do ranged feinting then why are these feats required?

Coidzor
2010-11-06, 02:30 PM
So the halfling can use his dex with a spiked chain.:smallcool:

Except the feat already let him do that. Or with a courtblade or with a rapier.

Here he'd have to get the feat again or take the time and money to retrain it.

WarKitty
2010-11-06, 02:37 PM
Cooperative Spell for Mage of the Arcane Order is nothing but a straightup feat tax. I'm not saying Mage of the Arcane Order doesn't need a feat tax for what it accomplishes (Spellpool is awesome) but Cooperative Spell is such a useless feat, it's not even funny.

Classic example, although single-feat taxes aren't as bad because presumably you're taking them as you're about to enter the PrC. It's the classes that make you take 2 or 3 useless feats (BoED I'm looking at you) instead of something actually useful, especially if it's a melee PrC. Those annoy me.

Chrono22
2010-11-06, 02:38 PM
Oh, well I missed the fine print about spiked chains , but it could be a greatsword or other heavy weapon instead.

Why do you care?

FMArthur
2010-11-06, 02:45 PM
I really don't like Prestige Classes that you can't enter until 8th or 11th level (or even later!). I play most of my games from about 5 to 13th level. I get it if the class is fairly powerful and doesn't have a monopoly on the class concept, but sometimes I just don't see the reason. Cavalier, Divine Crusader, Archmage, etc wouldn't cause any disasters if they were available much sooner.

Fisticuffs
2010-11-06, 03:04 PM
The gimicky feats, found in any splatbook that are requirments for Prc, that only give you a +1 or +2 to some specific thing or only at some unusual time/circumstance. (Examples include Court of The Stars from BoED or True Believer for CD.)

Any Prc that requires three feats, typically having little to do with one another.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-11-06, 03:26 PM
Everyone in this thread needs to read my Prereq handbook.


I really don't like Prestige Classes that you can't enter until 8th or 11th level (or even later!)example?

Starbuck_II
2010-11-06, 03:35 PM
Everyone in this thread needs to read my Prereq handbook.

example?

Sublime Chord requires Bard 10 I think so you need to have gained enough XP to level 11 to enter.

Dr.Epic
2010-11-06, 03:36 PM
Alignment restriction on Frenzied Berserker.

true_shinken
2010-11-06, 03:37 PM
Everyone in this thread needs to read my Prereq handbook.


I'm sorry, dude, but this thread is not about 'how I can cheese my way up to 9th level spells in a few levels'. It's about what requirements you would change in a prc if you could.
Dragonslayer bothers me with the feats, Doomlord bothers me with the base attack bonus, Vigilante shouldn't be so skill intensive... it's a long list, really.

WarKitty
2010-11-06, 03:37 PM
Everyone in this thread needs to read my Prereq handbook.

example?

To be honest, in a lot of cases the methods for avoiding prerequisites or gaining them in a different manner aren't much better. They may be *more powerful*, but I find a significant portion force me into a specific race/alignment/class that doesn't fit my character.

FMArthur
2010-11-06, 04:05 PM
Oh yeah, that's the big one for sure. Racial or alignment requirements that don't seem to have anything to do with the class/feat that requires them. That actually makes me genuinely angry whenever I see it.

true_shinken
2010-11-06, 04:09 PM
Oh yeah, that's the big one for sure. Racial or alignment requirements that don't seem to have anything to do with the class/feat that requires them. That actually makes me genuinely angry whenever I see it.

Yeah, I agree. Racial requirements are usually bad enough - why the hell can only elves be arcane archers? Some are fine (I like how only humans can be chameleons) but most don't make sense.

nedz
2010-11-06, 04:27 PM
Rapid Shot for Order of the Bow Initiate.
Did they read the class ?
Its main ability: You get a precision damage bonus for firing just one arrow as a standard action.

Nero24200
2010-11-06, 04:39 PM
Two-Weapon Sheild Basher

Requires Two Weapon Fighting and Sheild Bash. Not applicable at level 1 unless you're human. Theres a few like that actually, but thats the only one I can think of off the top of my head. Just bugs me that there are some fighting styles you can't do until a certain level.

true_shinken
2010-11-06, 04:45 PM
Rapid Shot for Order of the Bow Initiate.
Did they read the class ?
Its main ability: You get a precision damage bonus for firing just one arrow as a standard action.

Order of the Bow Master: Did you learn already how to shoot two arrows at once?
Order of the Bow Initiate: Yes, master.
Order of the Bow Master: Now, I'll show you how to shoot a single arrow... dealing slightly higher damage.
Order of the Bow Initiate: ...*sigh* I knew I should have been a wizard...

nedz
2010-11-06, 07:08 PM
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting for Tempest

The last two make sense, but the first three, ..., really ?

mikau013
2010-11-07, 12:07 AM
Leadership

The feat itself already says to check with your dm before taking it. I just hate it such a gamechanging feat is required for a prc (eventhough it does make sense for some prcs I guess)

Coidzor
2010-11-07, 12:23 AM
Oh yeah, that's the big one for sure. Racial or alignment requirements that don't seem to have anything to do with the class/feat that requires them. That actually makes me genuinely angry whenever I see it.

Gotta love things that they think are balanced because only DMs will use it for villains or some such.

Drakevarg
2010-11-07, 12:50 AM
[Feats: EWP (Orc Double Axe), WF (Orc Double Axe)] for Eye of Gruumsh. Nothing about the class intrinsically requires the weapon. Hell, the class pic isn't even holding one.

[Race: Gnome] for Giant-Slayer. I can almost understand [Size: Small], but the racial limitation seems arbitrary. Same with [Race: Halfling] and Outrider.

[Race: Dwarf] for Defender. Not even the sized-based logic to go here. Stonelord gets the same gripe. Even though dwarves are all earth-y, this limitation is annoying for the same reason as Arcane Archer being annoying just because elves are all shoot-y.

[Skill: Ride] for Kensai. The class has nothing to do with mounts. Same applies to Knight Protector.

[Feat: Improved Initiative] for Occult Slayer. Again, arbitrary and has no intrinsic value to the class.

Both of the feats for Ravager. Same reason as above.

[Feat: EWP (Bastard Sword)] for Ronin. It's because HE R B SAMURAI LOL and nothing else.

Mystify
2010-11-07, 01:21 AM
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting for Tempest

The last two make sense, but the first three, ..., really ?

Tempest gives you a two-weapon spring attack, so you need to be able to spring attack in the first place. Though I would prefer if it didn't give you that and removed those pre-reqs.

Runestar
2010-11-07, 01:42 AM
Just about every arcane spellcasting prc with knowledge: (not arcana) as a prereq.

Why don't you just say "Sorcs need not apply"? :smallmad:

Heirophant's knowledge religion as well, since that means druids cannot take it prior to lv27. Though admitably, it is usually a bad idea to take it pre-epic as it does not advance spellcasting anyways.

Blackguard - why do I need ranks in hide when the stereotype is that of a hulking black knight in spiked fullplate and riding a horse?

Dwarven defender - toughness and endurance. Surely the designers cannot be so sadistic...:smalleek:

Marnath
2010-11-07, 01:47 AM
Dwarven defender - toughness and endurance. Surely the designers cannot be so sadistic...:smalleek:

Not sadistic, stupid. Get it right. :smallbiggrin:

Coidzor
2010-11-07, 02:06 AM
Now, now, people can be malicious and stupid at the same time.

ffone
2010-11-07, 03:56 AM
Tempest gives you a two-weapon spring attack, so you need to be able to spring attack in the first place. Though I would prefer if it didn't give you that and removed those pre-reqs.

Tempest is a 'great' example of a class that's wose to actually level through than play high level:

For 4 of the class's 5 levels, and for a number of levels prior to that, you're split between feats for moving and attacking (Mobility and Spring Attack) and TWF, which requires a full attack (so no moving or spring attack, without corner cases like swift move abilities).

Then, finally, at the fifth level, you get Two Weapon Spring Attack and the two actually synergize. Of course, you still can't use ITWF with this, and you're not really better off than just a 2H Spring Attack despite the massive investment.

Dr.Epic
2010-11-07, 04:39 AM
The special prerequisite for blighter that states you have to be an ex-druid and have to have been able to cast 3rd level druid spells.

Boci
2010-11-07, 04:46 AM
[Feat: EWP (Bastard Sword)] for Ronin. It's because HE R B SAMURAI LOL and nothing else.

Not to mention the OA states that most samurai (both in game and in real life) wielded their katana in both hands.

Gralamin
2010-11-07, 04:52 AM
All Racial Prereqs, unless the class actually uses Biological traits, or wouldn't make sense otherwise (For example, no turning a dwarf into a dwarf with stoneblessed)

jpreem
2010-11-07, 05:30 AM
Second the weapon finesse.
What do you mean you are a nimble rogue who uses those little daggers to stab someone. You have to grit your teeth and try to SMACK your enemies with them ( probably with your strength in negatives) for two levels before you can come to your senses and try to actually use those tiny-winy weapons as they were intended to. ( When I DM I dump the prereq, and give it to a rouge who uses daggers it for free)
Also most alignment prereqs - I tend to despise alignment as a game MECHANIC anyway.

Runestar
2010-11-07, 06:13 AM
Dragon disciple's spellcasting and skill requirements. I guess it makes sense from a flavour POV, but just plain irritating to qualify. And the prc isn't even that strong to begin with!