Class for a Mongrelfolk

[Urpriest]

I've been reading through Races of Destiny, and I found the fluff for the mongrelfolk interesting. Unlike their original incarnation (IIRC), Races of Destiny specifies that most mongrelfolk look like ordinary humanoids, just with ambiguous racial features. Apparently mongrelfolk intentionally promote the myth that they are hideous to behold so that the majority regular mongrelfolk can blend in to humanoid society.

With that in mind, a mongrelfolk character with a focus on blending in/subterfuge would be quite interesting. I imagine a character who is introduced to the party merely in terms of traits: he's short, has black hair, or the like. The character would never be described as a mongrelfolk, and it would be left to the other players to speculate as to what race he is.

A traditional subtle character might not work very well, as mongrelfolk take a large penalty to Cha, along with a penalty to Int. Their ridiculous Con bonus also cries out for optimization.

My question then is, is there a way to combine these concepts? What kind of build would capitalize on the ambiguity and subtlety of these creatures while still amassing Con-synergy?

[dsmiles]

Beguiler (or Rogue)/Chameleon? Don't mongrelfolk count as all races, for the purpose of race-specific stuff? IIRC, that's what the FF(?) says.

[Keld Denar]

Dragonfire adept?

[Urpriest]

Beguiler (or Rogue)/Chameleon? Don't mongrelfolk count as all races, for the purpose of race-specific stuff? IIRC, that's what the FF(?) says.

Looks like they can only count as other races for magic items. While they have the human subtype, I don't think that's enough to qualify for Chameleon, though I suppose it might be. And Beguiler doesn't feel like a very good choice due to the Int penalty.

[dsmiles]

Maybe Rogue/Spymaster, then?

...and later...

EPIC INFILTRATOR!!!
(duhn duhn duuuuuuuuuhn!)

[Scarey Nerd]

Maybe Rogue/Spymaster, then?

+1. Maybe a bit of Chameleon thrown in there.

EDIT: Mongrelfolk are a Human variant, so they count for Chameleon.

[EvilJames]

ugg! I hate the races of destiny mongrelfolk. Other than that I can't think of anything useful to add as I don't have any books handy.

[Urpriest]

+1. Maybe a bit of Chameleon thrown in there.

EDIT: Mongrelfolk are a Human variant, so they count for Chameleon.

Got a source for this last claim?

Rogue/Spymaster is what I thought at first, but it feels like it would be suboptimal to pull off with the race's ability adjustments, and it doesn't make much use of the Con. On the flipside, Dragonfire Adepts like Con, but could they do subtle?

[hamishspence]

Page 99, Races of Destiny:

Humanoid (human): Mongrelfolk are humanoids with the human subtype.

[Scarey Nerd]

Got a source for this last claim?

Rogue/Spymaster is what I thought at first, but it feels like it would be suboptimal to pull off with the race's ability adjustments, and it doesn't make much use of the Con. On the flipside, Dragonfire Adepts like Con, but could they do subtle?

The Human subtype is part of it, and I also remember reading in a comprehensive list of races that Mongrelfolk always come under the Human category. The first point, which I know has already been mentioned, is the more important part, because all a Human is is a Humanoid (Human), just as an Elf is just a Humanoid (Elf).

EDIT: Rogue/Spymaster'd.

[Keld Denar]

DFAs have building voice which gives +6 on all social skills and many of the social skills as class skills. They also have the humanoid form invocation which is great for disguise. Plus, you don't really need to carry a weapon since your main weapon is in your lungs. That makes you dangerous even if you voluntarily disarm yourself.

EDIT: Also walk unseen for unlimited invisible...

[CockroachTeaParty]

I still think a beguiler could work for a mongrelfolk. If you put an 18 in INT, you'll be starting with a 16, which should be more than enough for your purposes. If you're doing point buy, you could put fewer points in CON, obviously, and make it up with your racial bonus.

[Urpriest]

The Human subtype is part of it, and I also remember reading in a comprehensive list of races that Mongrelfolk always come under the Human category. The first point, which I know has already been mentioned, is the more important part, because all a Human is is a Humanoid (Human), just as an Elf is just a Humanoid (Elf).

EDIT: Rogue/Spymaster'd.

So Race requirements are really subtype requirements? I suppose that's believable...but on the other hand, requirements like True Beholder and True Dragon don't work like that. Is there any clearer presentation of this? Also, this means that Mongrelfolk can take Human Paragon?

@Keld: Hadn't realized Dragonfire Adepts had that kind of stuff going. It does make sense, though, dragons often have a more subtle role. A "silverbrow" mongrelfolk would be an interesting concept I suppose...I feel like the dragony flavor would distract from the everyman concept, though. I'd really like to play a mongrelfolk whose shtick is being so ordinary that nobody questions his presence.

[Dr.Epic]

I thought the ideal class for mongrelfolk was rogue?:smallconfused:

[Urpriest]

I thought the ideal class for mongrelfolk was rogue?:smallconfused:

That's the flavor, but the huge pile of Con and penalties to Int and Cha limit this. Mongrelfolk don't actually have that much going for them as rogues, despite their culture.

[Morph Bark]

Does barbarian rage disallow the use of SLAs? If not, a Barbarian 1/Dragonfire Adept sounds great.

[Kylarra]

Binder might be an interesting choice. Change up your class features to keep them guessing what you can do, in addition to being a generic face.

[Urpriest]

Binder might be an interesting choice. Change up your class features to keep them guessing what you can do, in addition to being a generic face.

Ooh, I like this one. Strong Con synergy, no overwhelming tendencies towards any particular role...

If it turns out that mongrelfolk count as human for classes, a Binder/Chameleon sounds like a very very versatile character.

[true_shinken]

Any meldshaper could work as well.

[Urpriest]

Any meldshaper could work as well.

Totemists are somewhat feral/flashy, at least by default. Can Incarnates do subtle?

[Greenish]

If it turns out that mongrelfolk count as human for classesIt's Humanoid (Human). One doesn't become more human than that. All elves are elves, all humans are humans, subraces don't matter.

Totemists are somewhat feral/flashy, at least by default. Can Incarnates do subtle?Not so well, given that the shaped melds tend to be rather distinctive looking.

[true_shinken]

Totemists are somewhat feral/flashy, at least by default. Can Incarnates do subtle?

There is very little they can't do. :smallbiggrin:
Though the default subtle incarnate is a tiefling.

[Beelzebub1111]

Totemest is a bit flashy, but what about Incarnate?

Edit: Swordsage'd

[Dusk Eclipse]

I second the binder idea, though at low levels the cha penalty might hinder you when making pacts.

[true_shinken]

I second the binder idea, though at low levels the cha penalty might hinder you when making pacts.

'failed' pacts are the funnier pacts anyway

[Urpriest]

I second the binder idea, though at low levels the cha penalty might hinder you when making pacts.

Yeah, which is actually more of a problem than it might be in general, because messing up a pact means the character is forced to do something obvious and obnoxious, going against the whole obsession with being inconspicuous.

I kinda wish mongrelfolk had everybody's subtypes, rather than just human, so they could take everybody's paragon classes. (Speaking of, no-one has yet provided evidence that racial subtypes are equivalent to races. Are there no PrCs with Race: Lizardfolk or the like as requirements?) A pile of paragon classes would be very thematic for this kind of character if not particularly powerful.

[Scarey Nerd]

I kinda wish mongrelfolk had everybody's subtypes, rather than just human, so they could take everybody's paragon classes. (Speaking of, no-one has yet provided evidence that racial subtypes are equivalent to races. Are there no PrCs with Race: Lizardfolk or the like as requirements?) A pile of paragon classes would be very thematic for this kind of character if not particularly powerful.

Hmm, a Neanderthal counts as a human, doesn't it? If so, then Mongrelfolk has to, both having the Human subtype.

[Morph Bark]

If you want to abuse the high Con even more, try see if you can/would like to become a dragonborn. :smallamused:

That combined with Binder would work out really well.

[dsmiles]

I kinda wish mongrelfolk had everybody's subtypes, rather than just human, so they could take everybody's paragon classes. (Speaking of, no-one has yet provided evidence that racial subtypes are equivalent to races. Are there no PrCs with Race: Lizardfolk or the like as requirements?) A pile of paragon classes would be very thematic for this kind of character if not particularly powerful.

I approve of Binder/Chameleon, and I can point you towards an example of a subtype being used for a PrC. The Scaled Horror in SS requires the "aquatic" or "reptilian" subtype. That's as close as I could get to your dilemma, but it's a good starting point for arguing this in your favor.

[FMArthur]

I really think that "True" is used to distinguish a specific creature within a creature type, like True Dragon or True Beholder or something like that. Nonspecific references to races should allow their racial variations.

When your character is Humanoid (human), I don't see how you can argue that you're not human.

[Last Laugh]

If you want to abuse the high Con even more, try see if you can/would like to become a dragonborn. :smallamused:

That combined with Binder would work out really well.

Alternatively, lolth-touched for +10 constitution :smallcool:

I think that 1 level of human paragon would be cool to gain access to Autohypnosis as a class skill for all classes. (It meshes alright with the mongrelfolks sound imitation and would be a good think for a sneaker to be able to do.)

Edit: Hooray for page 2!!

[Urpriest]

I approve of Binder/Chameleon, and I can point you towards an example of a subtype being used for a PrC. The Scaled Horror in SS requires the "aquatic" or "reptilian" subtype. That's as close as I could get to your dilemma, but it's a good starting point for arguing this in your favor.

See, the Scaled Horror seems like an argument that Mongrelfolk wouldn't qualify. It doesn't say Race: Aquatic or Reptilian, it says Race: must have aquatic or reptilian subtype. So Aquatic and Reptilian aren't races, which would imply that human subtype isn't Race: Human. On the other hand, putting a subtype requirement in the race entry could be read as evidence that subtypes are an indicator of race. I'm still not sure on this one.

Dragonborn and Lolth-Touched are both Con-optimization, but they don't feel very in tune with the concept. Dragonborn are very obviously dragonborn if you look at the pictures, good luck confusing anybody about what you are. Lolth-touched doesn't have obvious physical manifestations, but I've never seen much indication that Lolth is interested in infiltrating the surface races as opposed to just killing/enslaving them.

What kinds of things could I do as a Chameleon? I'm a little lost as to what you actually do as one.

[FMArthur]

You get excited about being able to do anything you want and then use it exclusively as a Mystic Theurge. :smalltongue:

Well, that's not quite accurate, but the noncaster Aptitude Focuses really do suck, even taking into account that spellcasting is already superior in general. The spellcasting itself is interesting. You get to pick which classes your "Mystic Theurge" is composed of every time you change your Aptitude Focus. So you could be a Wizard/Cleric one day and a Wu Jen/Druid the next if you like. It is also really great for getting spells from slow-progression classes, like Bards and Assassins, at a faster progression.

Mimic Class Feature generally gives you some watered-down features that weren't too powerful to begin with, and gives you like 3 uses of them (collectively) per day. The floating bonus feat is interesting and helps you change your specialization somewhat from day-to-day, and is regarded as being very good for item creation. Ability Boon helps reduce MAD or your racial ability penalty and can get you higher-than-normal casting stats.

[Thrawn183]

I'd also say Dragonfire Adept. There are a lot of invocations that don't offer saves (so the Charisma is no problem). In a addition, if you aren't using your invocations in combat you can just stick heavy armor on the guy.

Lastly, in addition to all the invocations mentioned previously, DFA's also get Perilous Veil. It's pretty tough to get better than an illusion that can turn anything into anything.

I like using it to make paladin's appear to be undead. Presents quite the moral dilemma when all the good guys start attacking you.

Edit: I also love Chameleon so... actually I'm going to recommend the Chameleon. Just too good to pass up.

[Urpriest]

So it looks like the main thing Chameleons are good at is getting very high stats. This seems like it would be a good way to optimize Mongrelfolk Con. The problem is, so far I haven't seen any suggestions in this thread for dedicated uses of Con that don't scream "I'm a monster". I suppose an AC build with Stoneblessed and Deepwarden would fill the infiltrator flavor (raised by dwarves without them knowing he wasn't one of their own), but is that really worthwhile?

Including something like Fist of the Forest would be an interesting Con-focus direction, but the roleplay restrictions make the character crappy as an infiltrator. It does suggest an interesting concept: the mysterious feral child whose origin is unknown, raised by various races who each believe it to be one of them. The character might go down a Fistbeard-Beardfist route for further Con-pumping. It's not the concept I'd like to explore here, but it's an interesting direction.

So is there anything you can do with a monstrously high Con and a pile of class levels spent on Chameleon that isn't attention-grabbing? Perhaps something involving Concentration? I could see Diamond Mind being handy, but I'm not sure it would do enough.

[Thrawn183]

Well, even a single level dip at higher level would get you all three of the Diamond Mind save counters as they're only level 1-3 maneuvers.