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gallagher
2010-11-06, 05:30 PM
so i have heard that shadowcasters (ToM) really arent much to write home about, though i am not sure what tier they fall under (i assume tier 3, since they are casters?)

how does one make a shadowcaster that doesnt suck? what role can/does a shadow caster fill in your stereotypical party? does it gestalt well? my google-fu failed me, i couldnt even find a shadowcaster handbook!

gallagher
2010-11-06, 05:39 PM
well i found the handbook. i need to start using google more (dont ask why i havent been. its a work thing)

as i am reading through it, does anyone have any advice?

ThunderCat
2010-11-06, 05:59 PM
The creator of the class made some sort of unofficial suggestion for a fix (I think), so you might want to start by looking that up.

Psyren
2010-11-07, 10:02 AM
well i found the handbook. i need to start using google more (dont ask why i havent been. its a work thing)

as i am reading through it, does anyone have any advice?

Designer Ari Marmell's fix (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/184955-shadowcaster-fixes-mouseferatu.html) is a great place to start.

Shadowcasters ARE playable as written (they aren't completely broken like, say, the Truenamer) but they are pretty weak without that fix. They combine the worst parts of wizards and sorcerers - limited spells known and limited spells/day. Their list is also fairly weak, though it has some gems.

Adumbration
2010-11-07, 10:09 AM
Works only at higher levels, really. Levels 1 to whatever it takes to gain the spell-like abilities (7?) are a real pain in the butt.

Realms of Chaos
2010-11-07, 01:11 PM
It's homebrew but I did some work trying to make shadow magic better.300+ pages of work, actually (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519). :smallwink:

arguskos
2010-11-07, 01:17 PM
Both fixes I use have been linked already.

Even WITH those, it's arguable if they're better than Tier 4. Limited use of abilities is a real pain in the ass.

Also, Realms, I found an amusing synergy with your material. Invisible Pyre+Tugging Shadows=roflcopter.

Xallace
2010-11-07, 01:35 PM
A while back, someone on the WotC boards made a version of the shadowcaster using recharge magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm). I believe the post is now lost in the ether, but thankfully I saved the text.

"Recharging doesn’t require any actions and doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. As long as a spellcaster is alive, he naturally recharges his energy." For more details, see the entire entry at Recharge Magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/rechargeMagic.htm).

Shadowcasters would use the Bard/Sorcerer column for recharge times. This system would replace the 3/day uses for supernatural powers, 2/day for spell-like powers and 1/day for spells of the current system. It would naturally cause fundamentals to become unlimited use without a special rule (although not until they could cast a 8th level mystery). You would calculate the highest possible "spell level" for a shadowcaster by maximum level mystery they could cast if they always selected the highest level mystery they could -- they would not be required to actually select mysteries in such a manner in order to get quicker recharge times.

The Favored Mystery feat makes a mystery cast as a spell into a spell-like ability, a mystery used as a spell-like ability into a supernatural ability, and a gives a mystery used as a supernatural ability an extra use per day. The change in type works the same in this system, but the additional time per day for mysteries used as supernatural abilites instead makes such mysteries using general recharge time determine their recharge time as if they were two levels lower (that is, uses a column two steps further down the table), to a minimum recharge time of 0 rounds.

Recharge Magic makes spellcasters more powerful, which is why you don't see people generally using it for normal D&D spellcasting classes. But in the case of the Shadowcaster, it would simply raise the class to the level of power of other arcane spellcasters, as well as keeping their flavor as being different than other casters intact.

Recharge Times for Shadowcaster Mysteries

Afraid of the Dark: General
Army of Shadow: 10 minutes
Arrow of Dusk: General
Aura of Shade: General

Bend Perspective: General
Black Candle: General
Black Fire: General
Black Labyrinth: 24 hours *
Bolster: 1 hour

Carpet of Shadow: 5 minutes
Caul of Shadows: 5 minutes
Clinging Darkness: 5 minutes
Congress of Shadows: General
Consume Essence: General
Curtain of Shadows: General

Dancing Shadows: General
Dark Air or Water: 2 hours
Dark Soul: General
Deadly Shade: General *
Dusk and Dawn: 1 hour

Echo Spell: General
Ephemeral Image: General
Ephemeral Storm: General

Far Sight: 6 hours
Fearful Gloom: General *
Feign Life: General
Flesh Fails: General
Flesh Fails, Greater: General
Flicker: General
Flood of Shadows: General

Grasping Shadows: General *

Killing Shadows: General

Languor: General
Life Fades: General
Life Fades, Greater: General
Liquid Night: 30 minutes

Menagerie of Darkness: 1 hour *
Mesmerizing Shade: General
Mystic Reflections: General

Pass into Shadow: General
Piercing Sight: 30 minutes
Prison of Night: General

Quicker than the Eye: 5 minutes *

Reflections of Things to Come: 1 hour

Shadow Evocation: General
Shadow Evocation, Greater: General
Shadow Hood: General
Shadow Investiture: General
Shadow Plague: General
Shadow Skin: General
Shadow Storm: General
Shadow Surge: General
Shadow Time: 4 hours
Shadow Vision: General
Shadows Fade: General
Shadows Fade, Greater: General
Sharp Shadows: 5 minutes
Sickening Shadow: General *
Sight Eclipsed: General
Sight Obscured: General
Steel Shadows: 30 minutes
Soul Puppet: 12 hours
Step into Shadow: General
Summon Umbral Servant: General

Thoughts of Shadow: 5 minutes
Tomb of Night: General
Trail of Haze: 30 minutes *
Truth Revealed: General

Umbral Body: General
Umbral Fist: General *
Umbral Hand: General
Umbral Touch: General
Unravel Dweomer: General
Unveil: General

Voice of Shadow: General
Voyage into Shadow: 24 hours

Warp Spell: General
Widened Eyes: General

* = Mystery from the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a).

I'm not sure how well it works in practice, but it was certainly a neat idea.

Psyren
2010-11-07, 01:47 PM
I like it! Psionics has spell points built-in - the ToM classes should have had recharge magic built in to make them feel different. (In fact, the Binder has a very lightweight recharge mechanic itself.)

It would even fit Shadow Magic's fluff. Somewhere on another plane a Wizard used a Fireball, granting your SC access to the echo of energy captured by the Plane of Shadow at that moment.

WinWin
2010-11-07, 02:38 PM
Shadowcasters start out very weak. Once they reach 7th level, they can potentially access a versatile array of powers. Nowhwere near the versatility of other casters, but decent enough for most games.

Unfortunately, the class is rather gimped. You would have a better chance of surviving in a campaign by using the Creeping Darkness rules and trading out Sorcerer or Wizard levels as your character advances in level. Until you have reached 7th level or so, you are going to be about as effective as a commoner for the majority of battles if you went single classes.

Noctumancer may be a useful PrC to consider, especially if you use the creeping darkness rules. The web enhancement provides a few useful powers, some of which can work well with a Shadowcaster multiclass.

Urban Magic Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a)

Malbordeus
2010-11-07, 02:57 PM
i've tried and failed a few times to make a plausable one. they can pack some mean tricks with shadowcaster Prc's at higher levels, but otherwise...

ok, lets make this an exercise then and pool some of the forums collective brokenness.

we want to make a shadowcaster. as optimised as possible. and no-one say "dont play a shadowcaster" because that defeats the point.

Pro's of the class that I can see are;

spell-like and supernatural abilities when you go from low-mid-high levels.
at least one entirely new power (and its own allotment of /day) per level in the class.
is a spellcaster.
bonus feats.
has UMD as a skill...
being so crazy no-one would consider preparing defences against you. (Seriously, running out of ideas for how a shadowcaster is good)

Cons

progression is purely level driven.
MAD
each power has a very low /day capacity
limited selection of powers/paths to chose from (seriously, every other class has loads, plus the Sc, plus setting specific)
low hp/level
non-interaction with magic. this really hurts the abjuration/dispell options which would otherwise be pretty sweet.
extremely limited prc options.

----

from a quick look and because my flavour of the month is magic staves, i can consider this as a way of boosting combat output of the class. i dont think reserve feats work with mysteries despite effective spell-levels and schools, so those are out...
theres some useful meta-shadow feats. but they are 1/days. so not great. path focus? its pretty good over three spells... but its rare that all three will be offensive.
shadow Gems? cant remember the name, they function as pearl's of power but for mysteries, so maybe useful to stack a few.


ok,
so with this in mind - a Shadow staff with Afraid of the dark and Killing shadows? it breaks the convention of keeping to a single path, but it explicitly states that it is a convention, not a rule, and so can be made.

i'm going to consider feats a little later its already making my head hurt. ideas everyone, please! :smallsmile:

gorfnab
2010-11-07, 03:15 PM
Wizard 1 / Shadowcaster 3/ Noctumancer 10/ Mystic Theurge 6 - nets you double 9s but requires Precocious Apprentice or other early entry method. Wizard 3/ Shadowcaster 3/ Noctumancer 10/ Mystic Theurge 4 - still nets you double 9s but does not require early entry cheese.

Whisper Gnome Shadowcaster 5/ Assassin 1/ Shadowcaster 1/ Unseen Seer 2/ Noctumancer 7/ Arcane Trickster 4 - feats of note: Magic in the Blood (1st), Silencing Strike (6th), and eventually Craven (9th). This build nets you 9th level mysteries if you can finagle the skill points. If you don't care about getting 9th level mysteries then go with Whisper Gnome Rogue 1/ Shadowcaster 5/ Assassin 1/ Unseen Seer 2/ Noctumancer 7/ Arcane Trickster 4 for earlier enemy mage sniping capabilities (Arrow of Dusk + Sneak Attack + Silencing Strike, if flaws are available take Magic in the Blood, Silencing Strike, and Craven at first level) and more skill points to more easily get into the prestige classes. To qualify for Unseen Seer your first 2 assassin spells should be Sniper's Shot and one of the following: Critical Strike, Instant Search, or Instant Locksmith. Unseen Seer advances assassin to net 2nd level spells for the prereqs of Noctumancer. Unseen Seer also gets you +1d6 sneak attack and the Hunters Eye (PHBII) spell for more sneak attack.

WinWin
2010-11-07, 03:44 PM
A few ideas

Dark Familliar can be decent scout, especially on an Improved Familliar.

Nights Long Fingers + Quicker than the Eye (web) = nearly undetectable sleight of hand at low levels due to modifiers on Spot due to range.

Umbral Fist (web) can be used for trips and bull rushes at range...I am sure something clever can be done with this.

Collar of Umbral Metamorphasis + Planar Bubble (SC) = auto Maximised spells/mysteries with the Shadow descriptor. Alternatively, a Dark Familliar can be the target of the spell and stay close to it's master.

Starting as a wizard or sorcerer, then slowly trading out those levels via Creeping Darkness. This can be done strategically. Say Shadowcaster 3/wizard 3 takes a level in Noctumancer. Levels become shadowcaster 4/wizard 2/noctumancer 1. Wizard casting remain stable, shadowcaster increases by 2 and an extra feat could potentially be gained if another path is aquired. This is just an example. It could be greatly improved upon I am sure...Especially if this option is taken much later in the characters career. It would allow a wizard 3/shadowcaster3/noctumancer 9 to trade out a wizard level for a number of bonus feats, as the Shadowcaster feats can only be aquired by taking a shadowcaster level. The only limit on the total number of feats gained is the number of Paths the character has access to.

Just a few ideas. I'll go through my books for a couple of notable power combinations. I have a few in mind, but I want to make sure my interpretation is RAW.

gorfnab
2010-11-07, 03:53 PM
Nights Long Fingers + Quicker than the Eye (web) = nearly undetectable sleight of hand at low levels due to modifiers on Spot due to range.

Cast the Sight Obscured fundamental the round before for another +5 to the Sleight of Hand check.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-07, 06:44 PM
Wizard 1 / Shadowcaster 3/ Noctumancer 10/ Mystic Theurge 6 - nets you double 9s but requires Precocious Apprentice or other early entry method. Wizard 3/ Shadowcaster 3/ Noctumancer 10/ Mystic Theurge 4 - still nets you double 9s but does not require early entry cheese.


I'm reasonably certain that Shadowcasters are only allowed to be the arcane part of the mystic theurge, not divine.

Nope, your right. I now love Shadowcaster more then anything else ever. You can actually play two casters at the same time! All the way to two sets of level 9 spells!

Psyren
2010-11-07, 07:01 PM
I'm reasonably certain that Shadowcasters are only allowed to be the arcane part of the mystic theurge, not divine.

Nope, your right. I now love Shadowcaster more then anything else ever. You can actually play two casters at the same time! All the way to two sets of level 9 spells!

It goes a step further - the adaptation (ToM pg. 116) allows you to make your Shadowcaster divine instead of arcane, qualifying them for even more prestige classes and feats.

Noctumancer/MT is a nice way to ease into Shadow Magic; you get the fun of slinging mysteries around and the spell->SLA->Su progression, without being wholly stuck without toys on a given day. The "Creeping Darkness" trick also lets you go into Shadowcaster quickly, letting you play a straight Sorcerer or Wizard for the first few levels and then rapidly switching to Shadow Magic.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-07, 08:01 PM
I think the Shadowcaster is actually what the Sorc should have been, when looking at it. It has the counter-spell abilities, its fundamentally different from wizards, and it has more of a feeling of inherency to it.

Now I just need a party with a shadowcaster and a duskblade.

Psyren
2010-11-07, 08:53 PM
I think the Shadowcaster is actually what the Sorc should have been, when looking at it. It has the counter-spell abilities, its fundamentally different from wizards, and it has more of a feeling of inherency to it.

Nah, I prefer having a sorcerer distinct from the SC. Shadow Magic is deep and flavorful in its own way, but too slight and subtle to capture every concept.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-07, 09:32 PM
Valid point, I just wish some of the more interesting classes like warlock and shadowcaster and duskblade were core instead of obscure (relatively).

Lans
2010-11-07, 09:43 PM
I think the most viable options at low level are the extend metashadow feat to allow a 2 round command or what have you. Along with just using darkness on a stone and dropping it when an enemy attacks your allies to give them a 20% miss chance. Then grab utilities for your other cantrips.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-07, 09:55 PM
I think the most viable options at low level are the extend metashadow feat to allow a 2 round command or what have you. Along with just using darkness on a stone and dropping it when an enemy attacks your allies to give them a 20% miss chance. Then grab utilities for your other cantrips.

Dusk arrow is actually an okay ability. You get it a few times a day straight off, and its better then ray of frost. Then just crossbow like anyone else would.

Actually if I were going to play a Shadowcaster I would run wizard 3/shadowcaster3/Noctumancer10/MT4. This would get you some 9's in both sets at end game, and your beginning would play just like a normal wizard. Specialize in Necro or Illusion for flavor, and you have a really cool mage.

Pechvarry
2010-11-07, 11:13 PM
Nope, your right. I now love Shadowcaster more then anything else ever. You can actually play two casters at the same time! All the way to two sets of level 9 spells!

Can someone explain this to me? What how why for is Shadowcaster/wizard getting into Mystic Theurge?

Also, can someone verify that Shadowcasters can't interact with standard magic for dispelling? I was under the impression they were awesome dispellers/counterspellers.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-07, 11:20 PM
Can someone explain this to me? What how why for is Shadowcaster/wizard getting into Mystic Theurge?

Also, can someone verify that Shadowcasters can't interact with standard magic for dispelling? I was under the impression they were awesome dispellers/counterspellers.

In the Shadowcaster explanation for prc's it says that it can be used in MT. But it never tells you which side it is to be used as, so you can use it as both. This is backed up by the fact that you cannot take prestige classes that give you arcane or divine progression, but it can be progressed by untyped versions meant for both. What is important here is that it allows you to combine MT with Noctumancer and get level 9 wizard spells and upper-level master mysteries.

They can interact with normal magic, but they take a -4 when attempting to counter-arcane spells. Arcane spells take the same when attempting to counter-shadow spells. However they get lots of other bonuses for it, including a spell that lowers the DC of arcane spells but not shadowspells.

Psyren
2010-11-07, 11:24 PM
Can someone explain this to me? What how why for is Shadowcaster/wizard getting into Mystic Theurge?

ToM pg. 117: "Exception: Shadowcasters can qualify for the Mystic Theurge prestige class (DMG 192.) In order to do so, they are allowed to substitute the ability to cast 2nd-level mysteries for the ability to cast 2nd-level spells."

The same page clarifies that prestige classes that do advance Shadow Magic (including MT) also allow the PrC'ed shadowcaster to learn more fundamentals and convert mysteries from spells to SLAs to Su in turn.


Also, can someone verify that Shadowcasters can't interact with standard magic for dispelling? I was under the impression they were awesome dispellers/counterspellers.

They can interact, but both sides take a -4 penalty.

Psyrogue'd! :smallyuk:

Pechvarry
2010-11-08, 12:47 AM
Thanks for the clarifications.

Though I would throw a book at anyone -- even my DM -- who tried to use that trick to add both arcane and divine levels to shadowcaster for +2 spellcasting level per level...

Psyren
2010-11-08, 12:53 AM
Thanks for the clarifications.

Though I would throw a book at anyone -- even my DM -- who tried to use that trick to add both arcane and divine levels to shadowcaster for +2 spellcasting level per level...

:smalleek:

Now that you mention it...

(just kidding :smallwink:)

Tvtyrant
2010-11-08, 12:56 AM
Thanks for the clarifications.

Though I would throw a book at anyone -- even my DM -- who tried to use that trick to add both arcane and divine levels to shadowcaster for +2 spellcasting level per level...

....You are an amazing man. I am now going to run this by my DM (which is me). He says yes :P

Honestly I love the idea of a shadowizard with mysteries and spells. Fluff with having him treat them as being completely different, like oil and water.

WinWin
2010-11-08, 02:30 AM
A couple of combos...More to come.

Clinging Darkness + Grasping Shadows (web): Grasping Shadows is a Black Tentacles like effect that continues to attempt to try and grapple opponents even if they have escaped. It even blinds opponents. By combining it with Clinging darkness, you can root foes in place...The shadowcasters solid fog/black tentacles.

Echo Spell. Repeats a spell or mystery cast. Not a great offensive option potentially due to a lack of spellcasting foes. However, you can taget your allies spells or spell trigger items. That means if the DMM persist cleric in your party casts a metamagic reduced Persistant spell, you can echo it (and then share it with your familliar if it was personal). Good targets are metamagic reduced spells and spells with expensive components. Situationally useful depending on the party.

Feign Life + Permenancy. Feign Life is like Animate Objects except it is lower level and the targets are granted concealment. Because it is treated like Animate Objects, it becomes eligable for the permenancy spell (at a slightly lower cost than normal). Obviously a high CL is required to deter dispels and also to create the largest Animated Objects. Decent for protecting a base...You almost want to create something unique in order to benefit the animated object's combat abilities. Could technically be awakened...If you went to the trouble of animating something out of a unique material this may be worth the cost.

Menagerie of Darkness (web) + Dark Speech or Summon Swarm. Okay...Dark Speech abuse allows the creating of a hivemind, nothing new here. The only difference is that the Shadowcaster's H.I.V.E can have the Dark Creature Template and would be Dominated. Summon Swarm on the other hand becomes a controllable entity...probably not that effective at high level, but swarms fare a little better than low CR monsters.

More Shadow Familliar + Planar Bubble. Improved familliars worth considering are the Coure Eladrin, Imp (especially if they are from Cania), Quasit and most Mephits. Celestial/Fiendish/Axiomatic/Anarchic famillairs would also have planar traits. Most aligned planar traits simply penailse charisma checks, some of the elemental traits provide free metamagic to Spells and Spell like abilities (not supernatural...) others provide unique abilities. An example would be the Nine Hells (Cania), which will deal 3d10 cold damage per round.

Shadowcasters can have decent familliars...It is just a pity that the Shadow Dragon is not a valid Dragonic Familliar. I guess a Stiched Flesh Spellstiched Fiendish Shadow Creature Silver Dargon wyrmling will have to do (or something less feat intensive, but you get the idea).

I have a few more ideas, I'll try and focus on some low level combos next.

gorfnab
2010-11-08, 02:43 AM
Shadowcasters can have decent familliars...It is just a pity that the Shadow Dragon is not a valid Dragonic Familliar. I guess a Stiched Flesh Spellstiched Fiendish Shadow Creature Silver Dargon wyrmling will have to do (or something less feat intensive, but you get the idea).

Here's a list of Improved Familiars for Shadowcasters I've allowed in my games as a DM.

Improved Familiar - Book - Arcane Spellcaster Level
Shadow Asp - Fiend Folio - 3rd
Shadow Elemental, Small - Tome of Magic - 5th
Shadow Mastiff - Monster Manual I - 7th
Shadow Mephit - see spoiler - 7th

SHADOW MEPHIT
Small Outsider (Shadow, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 3d8 (13 hp)
Initiative: +7 Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 50 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/–1
Attack: Claw +4 melee (1d3)
Full Attack: 2 claws +4 melee (1d3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, spell-like abilities, summon mephit
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/magic, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 2
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 15
Skills: Bluff +8, Escape Artist +9, Hide +13, Diplomacy +4, Disguise +2 (+4 acting), Intimidate +4, Listen +6, Move Silently +9, Spot +6, Use Rope +3 (+5 with bindings)
Feats: Dodge, Improved Initiative
Environment: Plane of Shadows
Organization: Solitary (1), gang (2–4 mephits of mixed types), or mob (5–12 mephits of mixed types)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: 4–6 HD (Small); 7–9 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: +3 (cohort)

Shadow mephits come from the Plane of Shadows.

An shadow mephit is about 4 feet tall and weighs about 1 pound.

Shadow mephits speak Common and Abyssal.

Combat

Breath Weapon (Su): 15-foot cone of shadows, 1d4 damage +1d4 cold damage, Reflex DC 12 half. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +1 racial bonus. A shadow mephit can use its breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds as a standard action

Spell-Like Abilities:
1/hour - Dusk and Dawn, (Caster Level 3)
1/day - Umbral Touch (DC 15, caster level 6th). The save DC is Charisma-based.

Fast Healing (Ex): An shadow mephit heals only if it is an area of shadowy illumination, natural darkness, or magical darkness.

Summon Mephit (Sp): Once per day, a shadow mephit can attempt to summon another shadow mephit, much as though casting a summon monster spell, but with only a 25% chance of success. Roll d%: On a failure, no creature answers the summons that day. A mephit that has just been summoned cannot use its own summon ability for 1 hour. This ability is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-09, 02:29 AM
So I was looking at the Master Mystery's, and they don't seem all that impressive. They aren't horrible, mind, but the level 9's are not equal to a wizard's level 9s excepting the case of the Shadowcaster's version of Timestop.
This is found in other mystery's as well. They are either crazy good (spell warp, which is better for counter spelling then anything else ever) or pretty bad (the Lightning/Ice spell that is a chain lightning spell but worse).

Also, do your mystery's convert if you multiclass? As in the Spell->Spell like->Supernatural thing. They are shown at certain levels on the Shadowcaster chart, which implies Prc's don't get to convert them. This makes the prestige classes for Shadowcasters (other then Noctumancer/mystic thuerge) all but worthless.

gorfnab
2010-11-09, 03:01 AM
Also, do your mystery's convert if you multiclass? As in the Spell->Spell like->Supernatural thing. They are shown at certain levels on the Shadowcaster chart, which implies Prc's don't get to convert them. This makes the prestige classes for Shadowcasters (other then Noctumancer/mystic thuerge) all but worthless.
Yes, they do convert.

Tome of Magic page 117


PRESTIGE CLASS CASTING ADVANCEMENTS
When a shadowcaster gains new casting levels from advancement within a prestige class, this include the knowledge of new fundamentals, and the transformation of lower-level path mysteries into spell-like or supernatural abilities. It does not include gaining bonus feats for learning new paths or any other shadowcaster features.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-09, 01:54 PM
Yes, they do convert.

Tome of Magic page 117

Ah, thanks for that. Now I can't figure out why someone wouldn't take the prestige classes though.

Also I think Dusk Arrows is an amazing fundamental. It loses its sense of awesome at end game, but a supernatural ability that you can use 3 times a day at level 1 that does 2d4? Nice.

Psyren
2010-11-09, 02:52 PM
Ah, thanks for that. Now I can't figure out why someone wouldn't take the prestige classes though.

You miss out on the bonus feats, sustaining shadow etc. Granted, those benefits aren't all that good. (Certainly not as good as being, say, a pure Binder.)

You also miss out on at-will Fundamentals at 14.


Also I think Dusk Arrows is an amazing fundamental. It loses its sense of awesome at end game, but a supernatural ability that you can use 3 times a day at level 1 that does 2d4? Nice.

You can also pick AoD multiple times for more uses, giving you up to 9 shots at level 1. It also benefits from anything that boosts rays (like Weapon Focus and Improved Critical), and crits for 3x.

gorfnab
2010-11-09, 03:10 PM
You can also pick AoD multiple times for more uses, giving you up to 9 shots at level 1. It also benefits from anything that boosts rays (like Weapon Focus and Improved Critical), and crits for 3x.
It's also nice for adding sneak attack to.

subject42
2010-11-09, 03:17 PM
i need to start using google more (dont ask why i havent been. its a work thing)

Are you a Bing Developer?


More seriously, we have a Shadowcaster vampire in a PF game that I'm playing right now that uses the original creator's fixes. It may be that the PF Level Adjustment system is totally awesome, but he seems to be holding his own due to the synergies between the class and the race.

Psyren
2010-11-09, 03:30 PM
Are you a Bing Developer?

I'm suddenly reminded of the Microsoft employee that got fired for tweeting pictures of Macs arriving at her office.

On topic though, what I really want is a rundown/rating on the best and worst mysteries available in all the WotC sources. They also need more of the [Shadow] spells turned into Mysteries, like that 9th-level Druid one from SpC. (Shadow Landscape I think).

gorfnab
2010-11-09, 03:30 PM
You also miss out on at-will Fundamentals at 14.


That I don't think is quite right. If you look at the sample encounter Master of Shadow character (pages 124 and 125) you'll notice that its fundamentals are at will. The sample character is a Shadowcaster 6/ Master of Shadow 10. Also the actual text for the shadowcaster fundamentals at will appear in the text for shadowcaster fundamentals and not as a separate class ability. Sadly the ToM Errata and the D&DFAQ are no help. So I think might end up being a RAI vs RAW type issue.

Psyren
2010-11-09, 03:42 PM
Ah, you're right gorfnab - at-will fundamentals are part of the "Fundamentals of Shadow" ability, which continues to advance as you gain levels in a PrC. Nice!

I don't mind being proven wrong, especially not when it results in more goodies for one of my favorite classes. :smallsmile:

Tvtyrant
2010-11-09, 04:31 PM
Has anyone here played Shadowcaster up to 20? Because the more I reread it, the more I lose interest in playing anything else.

It has more flavor then most arcane casters, it has good low level mysterys (steel shadow gives you +6 AC at level 1), it has warpspell (I don't need to say anything else on that) and it has endless Fundamentals at level 14, which means that I can move up to 100 pounds at a time forever. Even when it becomes an endless ability its like 70 pounds, which means dropping ceiling tiles on people and blocking doors.

I don't like most of the prestige classes though. Especially Child of Night. It's abilities are good, but the mystery that turns you incorporeal you get at almost the same time as you would the 1 minute a day thing, and without losing a level of mystery casting.

peacenlove
2010-11-09, 07:08 PM
They can interact with normal magic, but they take a -4 when attempting to counter-arcane spells. Arcane spells take the same when attempting to counter-shadow spells. However they get lots of other bonuses for it, including a spell that lowers the DC of arcane spells but not shadowspells.

This penalty applies only if the shadowcaster has no levels in a spellcasting class (ToM page 138).

Other notable good mysteries are Dark air or water (As awesome as 2 druid spells, create windstorms and tornados to destroy flying creatures) and ephemeral image + umbral body (hide in a wall, cast from the image). Prison of night cast on yourself can do the same if you have no walls available (its wings of cover on steroids).

There is no better ability for mobility and avoidance than flicker. Get it on a scroll or wand however because the prerequisites suck. Or if you are a DM slap it on your dragons. :smalltongue:

Greater shadow evocation => contingency
Shadow evocation => Improved floating disk (from spell compendium, solve your flight problem, can't carry much more than you however due to the 20% effectiveness)
Also fire shield is decent for combat purposes since you will be at close range frequently.

Consume essence: Buff its save DC, find a spellcaster, kill him and order him to cast all his buff spells on you when he rises. Too bad its a touch spell (although reach mystery solves this), and its a [Death] spell.

Far sight: Simply put one of the BEST divination abilities of D&D. Scry and die? You only need a teleport ability and voyage into shadow does just that.

Honorable mention to pass into shadow which comes as early as the cleric version and does wonders when cast offensively.



They also need more of the [Shadow] spells turned into Mysteries, like that 9th-level Druid one from SpC. (Shadow Landscape I think).

I imported some spells as mysteries (the threads are old) here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110455) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110455) (on second spoiler in the end).



I don't like most of the prestige classes though. Especially Child of Night. It's abilities are good, but the mystery that turns you incorporeal you get at almost the same time as you would the 1 minute a day thing, and without losing a level of mystery casting.

There was an article at the wizards site that listed all the PRC's a shadowcaster could take. However his limited mysteries known prevented him on taking any serious PRC, thus Shadowcaster 20 is better than any single casting PRC you might find in first party material. Notable exception is the divine oracle (however too restrictive) and the master of shadow (until 15th level)

Psyren
2010-11-09, 08:18 PM
This penalty applies only if the shadowcaster has no levels in a spellcasting class (ToM page 138).

That clause only applies to Spellcraft checks made by mystery-users to identify regular magic and vice-versa. Levels in both types of class have no effect on the penalty to dispel/counterspell a mystery with a spell or vice-versa.


I imported some spells as mysteries (the threads are old) here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110455) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=110455) (on second spoiler in the end).

Nice stuff (though I would have gone with "Umbra Borealis" to better contrast "Aurora Borealis.")


There was an article at the wizards site that listed all the PRC's a shadowcaster could take. However his limited mysteries known prevented him on taking any serious PRC, thus Shadowcaster 20 is better than any single casting PRC you might find in first party material. Notable exception is the divine oracle (however too restrictive) and the master of shadow (until 15th level)

Doesn't the Shadowcaster handbook have a list too? Granted it is in sore need of updating.

I know it can qualify for a couple of really weird ones, like Celestial Mystic from BoED. ("Taste Heaven's Shadow, villain!")

WinWin
2010-11-09, 11:46 PM
I am quite fond of the Dark Terrain path at low levels.

The first level ability is not that inspiring, but all mysteries in the path Synergise fairly well. Especially with later mysteries such as grasping shadows. The damage from Black Fire is capped only by caster level...so with enough CL abuse it can contribute to a decent dpr. Clinging Darkness is notable in that it immobilises foes in an area. This could be devastating for fliers, swimmers and climbers.

Eyes of Darkness is notable for the bend perspective mystery. This is not likely to of use at first level, though it would be great for a multiclass caster. Being able to shift perspective and use the target area as origin for LOS. It has decent synergy with the Line of Shadows metamagic feat, though not for touch or ranged touch powers. It is a shame the feat is only 1/day. The Killing Shadows mystery is a 1d8/CL blast effect that is uncapped, which makes it a decent ability for later levels, especially if the character has a few CL boosts.

Another RAW PrC entry for Noctumancer may be Warlock. The Shadowcaster uses 2nd level mysteries to meet the 'cast 2nd level spells' requirement for both arcane and divine. They can then use the +1 arcane caster level to progress warlock, and the +1 divine to progress mysteries. Not the best combo from an optimization perspective, but a shadowy warlock might fit a players character concept perfectly.

gorfnab
2010-11-10, 12:01 AM
Doesn't the Shadowcaster handbook have a list too? Granted it is in sore need of updating.

Yes, it does need updating.


Book of Vile Darkness
Disciple of Asmodeus (5/10 casting)
Thrall of Demogorgon (4/10 casting)
Thrall of Orcus (4/10 casting)

Book of Exalted Deeds
Celestial Mystic (10/10 or 9/10 casting, guessing from memory)
Sentinel of Bharrai (10/10 casting)
Skylord (5/10 casting? Don't remember the specifics of this)

City of Splendors: Waterdeep
Gray Hand Enforcer (4/5 casting)

Complete Adventurer
Ollam (3/5 casting, tough skill requirements)

Complete Arcane
Acolyte of the Skin (5/10 casting)
Alienist (10/10 casting, wasted Spell Focus, possibly wasted Augment Summoning)
Elemental Savant (8/10 casting, just barely possible with a single-classed shadowcaster to get into the cold/water savant)

Complete Divine
Divine Oracle (10/10 casting, need Education or a similar feat for skill requirement)
Sacred Exorcist (10/10 casting, need mystic theurge for spell requirements)

Draconomicon
Dragonslayer (5/10 casting)
Dragonsong Lyrist (2/5 casting)
Platnum Knight (5/10 casting)
Talon of Tiamat (5/10 casting)

Dungeon Master's Guide
Loremaster (10/10 casting, very tough to enter given the limited use of item creation for mystery users [at least compared to normal casters] and the limited number of mysteries in the Divination school)
Mystic Theurge (10/10 casting, a special exception given by the book)
Thaumaturgist (5/5 casting, need either Arcane Disciple (Summoning Domain) or mystic theurge to qualify)

Eberron Campaign Setting
Heir of Siberys (2/3 casting)

Five Nations
Cyran Avenger (4/5 casting)

Frostburn
Stormsinger (10/10, need a level of bard)

Lords of Madness
Fleshwarper (10/10 casting, need to use Shadow Familiar to qualify)
Keeper of the Cerulean Sign (10/10 casting)
Topaz Guardian (3/5 casting)

Magic of Eberron
Impure Prince (4/6 casting)
Renegade Mastermaker (8/10 casting)

Oriental Adventures
Shapeshifter (5/10 casting)

Planar Handbook
Doomlord (5/10 casting)
Visionary Seeker (5/10 casting)
Ardent Dilettante (only up to level 3 without multiclassing, 2/3)

Player's Guide to Faerun
Harper Agent (4/5 casting)
Harper Paragon (10/10 casting)
Martyred Champion of Ilmater (5/10 casting)

Races of Destiny
Scar Enforcer (5/10 casting)

Races of Stone
Earth Dreamer (5/5 casting)
Shadowcraft Mage (5/5 casting, Spell Focus is a wasted feat)

Races of the Wild
Ruathar (3/3 casting)

Sandstorm
Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (5/10 casting)

Tome of Magic
Child of Night (9/10 casting)
Master of Shadow (9/10 casting)
Noctumancer (10/10 casting)

Unapproachable East
Master of the Yuirwood (10/10 casting)

Weapons of Legacy
Legacy Champion (8/10 casting- by the wording of the progression, you should be able to gain bonus feats for new paths learned via this PrC)

Tvtyrant
2010-11-10, 12:33 AM
Another RAW PrC entry for Noctumancer may be Warlock. The Shadowcaster uses 2nd level mysteries to meet the 'cast 2nd level spells' requirement for both arcane and divine. They can then use the +1 arcane caster level to progress warlock, and the +1 divine to progress mysteries. Not the best combo from an optimization perspective, but a shadowy warlock might fit a players character concept perfectly.

Where are you getting that? It says it allows them to be used in Mystic Thuerge and doesn't say which type, but it never says they can act as both.

WinWin
2010-11-10, 12:54 AM
Where are you getting that? It says it allows them to be used in Mystic Thuerge and doesn't say which type, but it never says they can act as both.

Correct. It does not specify. It just says that mysteries can substitute for spells. Which is why I said it was RAW. I guess I could try an e-mail the creator to find out if it is RAI though.

For a multiclass warlock/shadowcaster, I would allow this in a game. If a wizard 1/shadowcaster 3 was trying to get early entry to MT at lvl 5, I would say no. YMMV

Tvtyrant
2010-11-10, 01:38 AM
Correct. It does not specify. It just says that mysteries can substitute for spells. Which is why I said it was RAW. I guess I could try an e-mail the creator to find out if it is RAI though.

For a multiclass warlock/shadowcaster, I would allow this in a game. If a wizard 1/shadowcaster 3 was trying to get early entry to MT at lvl 5, I would say no. YMMV

Oh, I thought you were arguing you could make a Noctumancer Warlock; that loophole is only for Mystic Thuerge. My mistake!

I'm slightly confused by the casting of mystery's though; do I have to wait until level 17 to access the 9th tier mysterys, or could I get to them by level 16 by just taking straight up one path? And how many castings do you get a day? I assume as many as you have mysterys, with each one being able to be cast as many times as its type allows (40 at level 20) but I could be wrong.

WinWin
2010-11-10, 07:10 AM
The main reason I would disallow a wizard 1/shadowcaster 3 into MT is that it is easy enough to jump into Noctumancer after another 2 levels...Not consistent, I know, but only sacrificing 1 level of casting progression in order to enter a theurge class (with one of the big 5) just rubs me the wrong way. By RAW it could be done, though I think it would only be suitable in a high powered/experienced game.

As for mystery progression, I believe that there is one new mystery learned per level. The earliest level by which the shadowcaster can even cast 9th level mysteries is 17. Master Paths are accessed at 13, with one master path power known from there. Due to mystery progression being based on mysteries known (ie. 2 1st levels must be known before a 2nd level mystery known can be taken), I think the earliest this can be managed is 17th level. This would require the character to know 7th and 8th level mysteries from 2 paths. Any other distribution of mysteries known would deny access to 9th level powers.

As for the uses per day, the table in the book refers to each seperate mystery. So where the table says 2 uses per day for 5th level mysteries, that means each 5th level mystery can be used twice (the same power can be taken more than once, allowing additional uses for every time it is 'known').

The only way this limit can be broken (aside from the unoficcial errata) is to take the favoured mystery feat. Interestingly, by taking the Favoured mystery feat for a master path power more than once allows the ability to be treated as supernatural...Due to the wording of the feat this would allow that mystery to be used an additional number of times per day equal to the number of favoured mystery feats. Not that great in an ordinary game, but if psychic reformation or retraining is allowed, this could allow the shadowcaster a bit of extra endurance at high levels.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 08:53 AM
I'm slightly confused by the casting of mystery's though; do I have to wait until level 17 to access the 9th tier mysterys, or could I get to them by level 16 by just taking straight up one path? And how many castings do you get a day? I assume as many as you have mysterys, with each one being able to be cast as many times as its type allows (40 at level 20) but I could be wrong.

You can access Master mysteries as early as 13, but you can't actually cast any of them until 17. See pg. 113 for the Uses table.

I'm not sure if Ari's fix (granting bonus mysteries for high Cha) adds any zeros to that table.

Pechvarry
2010-11-10, 02:12 PM
Having finally read the section on shadowcasters gaining entry to Mystic Theurge:


Shadowcasters can qualify for the mystic theurge prestige class. In order to do so, they are allowed to substitute the ability to cast 2nd-level mysteries for the ability to cast 2nd-level spells. They must meet all other requirements for the prestige class normally. In addition, if a shadowcaster takes cleric levels to meet the divine spellcasting requirement, he must be devoted to a god that grants access to one of the following domains: Knowledge, Magic, Darkness, or Illusion.

The bolded portion is implicit of shadowcaster only able to fulfill the arcane side. One sentence says "could be both" and the following sentence says "but not the other", which leaves you with one option.

I know people will say "but they never explicitly say it cannot be divine", but in my book, they just did.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 02:33 PM
I know people will say "but they never explicitly say it cannot be divine", but in my book, they just did.

I see it implying the opposite. The "if" implies the Shadowcaster has the option of being a Shadowcaster/Cleric/MT, or not.

Besides, RAW is clear. "2nd-level spells" can be arcane or divine; this is the same reason either a wizard or a cleric could enter a PrC like Celestial Mystic.

Pechvarry
2010-11-10, 02:52 PM
I see it implying the opposite. The "if" implies the Shadowcaster has the option of being a Shadowcaster/Cleric/MT, or not.

Besides, RAW is clear. "2nd-level spells" can be arcane or divine; this is the same reason either a wizard or a cleric could enter a PrC like Celestial Mystic.

I don't see either of those points. The line "if a shadowcaster takes cleric levels to meet the divine spellcasting requirement" shows right there that he's using cleric to qualify. If he's using shadowcaster to meet the divine reqs, then cleric isn't meeting any requirements. It doesn't say "if he decides he wants to progress cleric casting with Mystic Theurge..." so I don't buy that.

And the Celestial Mystic isn't the same thing at all. Classes which simply state "able to cast 4th level spells" are very cut-and-dry. The special case of Mystic Theurge has nothing to do with it.

--

As for Warlock/shadowcasters, I think if you're going to bend rules and such, it'd be better to let Shadowcasting replace the Arcane side of Eldritch Theurge. It's a much better theurge for the purpose, with class features you can actually use.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 02:56 PM
I don't see either of those points. The line "if a shadowcaster takes cleric levels to meet the divine spellcasting requirement" shows right there that he's using cleric to qualify.

Right. Meaning he can, not that he has to.


If he's using shadowcaster to meet the divine reqs, then cleric isn't meeting any requirements. It doesn't say "if he decides he wants to progress cleric casting with Mystic Theurge..." so I don't buy that.

Using one scenario as an example does not immediately invalidate all the others.


And the Celestial Mystic isn't the same thing at all. Classes which simply state "able to cast 4th level spells" are very cut-and-dry. The special case of Mystic Theurge has nothing to do with it.

It has everything to do with it. The line from ToM is "In order to do so, [Shadowcasters] are allowed to substitute the ability to cast 2nd-level mysteries for the ability to cast 2nd-level spells." The type of spell is not speicifed. For your interpretation to be the only valid one, it would have to say "for the ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells." Which it does not.


As for Warlock/shadowcasters, I think if you're going to bend rules and such, it'd be better to let Shadowcasting replace the Arcane side of Eldritch Theurge. It's a much better theurge for the purpose, with class features you can actually use.

1) I'm not bending rules - my interpretation is RAW.
2) MT is a specific exception; no such allowance is made for ET.

Pechvarry
2010-11-10, 04:45 PM
Right. Meaning he can, not that he has to.



Using one scenario as an example does not immediately invalidate all the others.



It has everything to do with it. The line from ToM is "In order to do so, [Shadowcasters] are allowed to substitute the ability to cast 2nd-level mysteries for the ability to cast 2nd-level spells." The type of spell is not speicifed. For your interpretation to be the only valid one, it would have to say "for the ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells." Which it does not.

You don't choose to qualify for a prestige class. You either do or you don't. If you're using Cleric to meet the divine spellcasting requirement, it's because you don't have those qualifications elsewhere.

I think I can definitively say we're not aware of what the other person is saying on the argument about Celestial Mystic, or we're reading too far into the other person. I'm not sure which. My only point is that in the case of Mystic Theurge (and in no other scenario), Shadowcaster is intended to fulfill the Arcane side. And though they miss the very specific ruling in sentence 1, sentence 2 denies divine entry.



1) I'm not bending rules - my interpretation is RAW.
2) MT is a specific exception; no such allowance is made for ET.

Maybe you SHOULD bend the rules. I can't imagine a DM who would be happy to twist MT entry to be shadowcaster/warlock but who would also disallow a shadowcaster version of eldritch theurge. Plus, I was just theorycrafting. Not arguing who was breaking RAW.

---

I'm not intending to change a lot of minds. I know the way RAW arguments work: if it doesn't specifically disallow it, it must be allowed. This is already breaking down to multi-quoting, which turns the thread nigh-unreadable. You now understand my perspective, and I respect everyone else'. Good day.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 04:54 PM
You don't choose to qualify for a prestige class. You either do or you don't. If you're using Cleric to meet the divine spellcasting requirement, it's because you don't have those qualifications elsewhere.

But you can choose how you qualify, so long as you meet the prerequisites with whichever way you choose.

For example, the sample Divine Oracle (Templeton) entered the class with Cleric levels; by your logic that means no other class but cleric can be one, simply because there are no other possibilities spelled out in the text. This is plainly incorrect; other classes, even arcane ones, can meet the requirements.


I think I can definitively say we're not aware of what the other person is saying on the argument about Celestial Mystic, or we're reading too far into the other person. I'm not sure which. My only point is that in the case of Mystic Theurge (and in no other scenario), Shadowcaster is intended to fulfill the Arcane side. And though they miss the very specific ruling in sentence 1, sentence 2 denies divine entry.

Celestial Mystic: "Able to cast 4th-level spells."
MT via Shadowcaster: "You can substitute 'able to cast 2nd-level mysteries' for 'able to cast 2nd-level spells.'

Neither specifies what type; both are valid PrCs for a Shadowcaster.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-10, 06:45 PM
I wouldn't allow warlock thuerging myself as a DM, RAW doesn't make Right.

So you get twenty mysteries by level 20, making a grand total of 40 uses. That puts it up there with Wizards, even though your more bottom heavy as opposed to top heavy.

Also you could skip having the level 9 spells altogether and just get all level 7s (beginning of Master Path). This would net you enough feats to have all spell likes or supernaturals, allowing you to have a plate mail wearing shadowcaster with more uses then a straight shadow caster. Mouse was right when he said that Shadowcaster is very, very flexible.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 07:42 PM
I wouldn't allow warlock thuerging myself as a DM, RAW doesn't make Right.

I wasn't arguing for that. :smallannoyed:
Sheesh.

Shadowcasters taking Eldritch Theurge isn't RAW either.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-10, 08:05 PM
I wasn't arguing for that. :smallannoyed:
Sheesh.

Shadowcasters taking Eldritch Theurge isn't RAW either.

You didn't, WinWin did. "Another RAW PrC entry for Noctumancer may be Warlock. The Shadowcaster uses 2nd level mysteries to meet the 'cast 2nd level spells' requirement for both arcane and divine. They can then use the +1 arcane caster level to progress warlock, and the +1 divine to progress mysteries. Not the best combo from an optimization perspective, but a shadowy warlock might fit a players character concept perfectly. "

Couple posts back. I as a DM would never let anyone apply a dual-prc to a third class that did not meet the reqs. So if you had Druid 3/wizard 3/cleric 1 I wouldn't allow a player to increase cleric with MT until they had raised it to level 3. The same thing with Warlock, I wouldn't let you boost Warlock through MT. Its not what the class is intended to do. Play an Eldritch Theurge then!

Psyren
2010-11-10, 08:19 PM
My apologies... thought you meant I was advocating Warlock/SC/ET. (I was still a mite irritated from the earlier argument.)

As for MT advancing Warlock... I see no problem with it, actually. Is it going to be any more powerful than advancing Sorcerer or Wizard? Not a chance.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-10, 08:33 PM
No problem, I wasn't insulted.

I agree and disagree. I agree that a Wizard or Sorc is better then a Warlock; but if your adding infinite lasers to a class that is famous for throwing all of their power away in 1-3 rounds (Shadowcaster) then there is a freakish amount of synergy; essentially you get full warlock damage as a backup to maximized empower quickened enlarge Shadow Tempest + maximized empowered enlarged [insert generic shadow name here]. Synergy is nice, but I think its too much in this case. They cancel each other's weaknesses out too well.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 08:41 PM
Yeah, but they're T4. So they synergize well... So do Totemist and DFA. If you could theurge them... well, you'd still be light-years behind a Sorcerer, never mind a Wizard.

And "full Warlock damage" is a phrase that generally carries a laugh-track without HFW.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-10, 11:24 PM
Yeah, but they're T4. So they synergize well... So do Totemist and DFA. If you could theurge them... well, you'd still be light-years behind a Sorcerer, never mind a Wizard.

And "full Warlock damage" is a phrase that generally carries a laugh-track without HFW.

HFW is good? You get a maximum of like 16 uses...

But anyway, I don't think giving a class that is fantastic at Nova killing an infinite use of 9d6 is a good idea. With the right mysteries you can be incorporeal, invisible and shooting rays everywhere you look. Not great on the balance aspect.

Flickerdart
2010-11-10, 11:36 PM
HFW is good? You get a maximum of like 16 uses...

But anyway, I don't think giving a class that is fantastic at Nova killing an infinite use of 9d6 is a good idea. With the right mysteries you can be incorporeal, invisible and shooting rays everywhere you look. Not great on the balance aspect.
No Hellfire Warlock worth his salt actually takes that CON damage without healing it back.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 11:37 PM
HFW is good? You get a maximum of like 16 uses...

It's quite good. A Binder dip for Naberius or some feats for Strongheart Soulmeld give you unlimited uses. (Though the latter method is hotly contested.)

Or you can just buy/craft some wands of lesser restoration.


But anyway, I don't think giving a class that is fantastic at Nova killing an infinite use of 9d6 is a good idea. With the right mysteries you can be incorporeal, invisible and shooting rays everywhere you look. Not great on the balance aspect.

That's still just 9d6/round, to one target apiece, at a very high level. And it's subject to concealment, SR, line of effect, etc. Even a Warmage can do better with some metamagicked orbs, never mind a wizard or sorcerer. The unlimited ammo is nice, but doesn't really come into play unless your party is constantly having encounters.

I mean, yeah mysteries and invocations are nice, but they still don't hold a candle to actual spells.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-10, 11:45 PM
Okay, so I have been thinking about the amount of mysterys you get. As a Noctumancer do you think it would be better to have 50 mysteries instead of the 40 you normally get by aiming most at initiate instead of master? You get ten more castings per day, and because you have the wizard levels you have high level spells anyway. More-over, you get more shadow feats due to more paths taken.

You could also go up to 60 castings by only taking apprentices, but those suck later on.

So are more mid-level castings better? Especially since you already get the max level Wizard spells.

Boci
2010-11-10, 11:46 PM
That's still just 9d6/round,

Yeah, that only 9-54 damage, averaging at 31.5. Just thought I'd right it like that, since I heard people have a tendancy to inflate d6 of damage when compared to actual numbers.

WinWin
2010-11-10, 11:53 PM
I mean, yeah mysteries and invocations are nice, but they still don't hold a candle to actual spells.

True that. Even a Theurge with 19th level mystery casting and 16th level spellcasting is better than 9d6 damage every round (for a standard workday).

The only time I can imagine a Shadowcaster/Warlock/Mystic Theurge would have an advantage is at low levels or in a low wealth campaign...Once a high WBL distribution hits the table they are not that much better than a rogue with limited spellcasting and worse BAB & skills. Not bad, but they would have little versatility and next to no splatbook support.

Even combining Shadowcaster with Warmage or Wu Jen provides more meaningful options for a typical game.

On another note, the List of PrC's for Shadowcaster is missing the Planar Handbook. Ardent Dilletante and Doomlord both progress mysteries.

Psyren
2010-11-10, 11:55 PM
Okay, so I have been thinking about the amount of mysterys you get. As a Noctumancer do you think it would be better to have 50 mysteries instead of the 40 you normally get by aiming most at initiate instead of master? You get ten more castings per day, and because you have the wizard levels you have high level spells anyway. More-over, you get more shadow feats due to more paths taken.

You could also go up to 60 castings by only taking apprentices, but those suck later on.

So are more mid-level castings better? Especially since you already get the max level Wizard spells.

You're a Wizard :smalltongue: it really doesn't matter what's on the other side.
Even a Wizard/Truenamer theurge that gets 9ths would be strong.


Yeah, that only 9-54 damage, averaging at 31.5. Just thought I'd right it like that, since I heard people have a tendancy to inflate d6 of damage when compared to actual numbers.

Indeed, it's good to point that out. On average, you can maybe kill a level 3 fighter each round at level 20.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-11, 12:04 AM
Okay, more generally then. 50 concentrated around mid levels or 40 with a few upper levels? It would split 21 low/29 mid or 21 low/14 mid/6 high (41). The 50 is essentially based on using favored mystery on the level 6 spells; otherwise its 21/26 for the initiate intensive.

So, you get 6 more uses per day, and more metamagic feats, or fewer but stronger of each. So with the Shadowcaster which is better?

WinWin
2010-11-11, 12:10 AM
If using MT and Noctumancer, it is possible to get 19th level mystery progression and 17th level Arcane.

Far more versatile than 19th mystery/17th invocation.

The better option is the only that suits the character. I would say that the Wizard theurge can cause more balance issues in a game though.

My bad...The only theurge option for warlock and shadowcaster is MT. So at 14th level (Shadowcaster 3/ warlock 1/ Mystic Theurge 10) you are going to have to focus on one progression or divide it somehow.

Arcane spellcasting is better by a wide margin.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-11, 12:12 AM
If using MT and Noctumancer, it is possible to get 19th level mystery progression and 17th level Arcane.

Far more versatile than 19th mystery/17th invocation.

The better option is the only that suits the character. I would say that the Wizard theurge can cause more balance issues in a game though.

? Who argued that? I just argued that I wouldn't allow someone to apply MT to a Warlock. A wizard+anything is amazing.

WinWin
2010-11-11, 12:16 AM
sorry, I misread your post.

I would favour higher level mysteries than a more diverse selection of powers. If only for the option for extending/empowering/maximising something like Shadow Time or Consume Essence 1/day.

Pechvarry
2010-11-11, 12:17 AM
Shadowcasters taking Eldritch Theurge isn't RAW either.

For the record, I'm the one who brought up Eldritch Theurge and no, I never claimed it was RAW. It's just the ideal house ruling for a shadowcaster/warlock.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-11, 12:22 AM
sorry, I misread your post.

I would favour higher level mysteries than a more diverse selection of powers. If only for the option for extending/empowering/maximising something like Shadow Time or Consume Essence 1/day.

I forgot the can meta-shadow their top tier mysteries! That is by itself fantastic; extended shadow time or maximized...anything.

On the other hand I love having an endless supply of spells. I think I would personally go with the breadth style and pick up the extra ten castings as a flavor thing. But I agree the other one is better.

Psyren
2010-11-11, 12:44 AM
Too bad Metashadow feats suck...

Flickerdart
2010-11-11, 01:16 AM
That's why metashadow rods are a fantastic investment.

WinWin
2010-11-11, 01:17 AM
The metashadow feats are not great compared to things like metamagic. For a low-op game they are ok though. Not every campaign is run at complete system mastery (that would be boring after a couple of games I think).

They are handy in a pinch though:

Still Mystery is decent in that it applies to all your high level mysteries with no limit.

Line of Shadow is unique to the shadowcaster, therefore I think it is cool.

The others are ok, but not great...They are basically the equivelant of Rapid Metamagic. Better than no metamagic at all.


As for versatility, I agree that it is tempting to spread out your known mysteries. There are quite a few unique mysteries available. The only way to get to try them all is retraining. Unlike the sorcerer or other spontaneous casters, the shadowcaster can't swap out mysteries as they increase in level (As far as I know). This leaves the PHB2 rules or things like Psychic Reformation as the only means of swapping out mysteries known.

Apart from that, the only thing that can boost versatility are items like wands, scrolls and staves. There may be a couple of feats that can add a known spell or two...But I am not sure if the Shadowcaster can meet the prereqs and how these spells would function as mysteries, if at all.

I'll do a bit of research, but I don't think they could qualify for things like Arcane Disciple. If they could...Then they may technically be able to use those spells as mysteries, following the limits of their casting table normally. As I said...I'll read up and see if I can find anything.

Psyren
2010-11-11, 01:26 AM
The others are ok, but not great...They are basically the equivelant of Rapid Metamagic. Better than no metamagic at all.

I think you mean Sudden Metamagic :smallwink:
They have the advantage applying to both spells and SLAs. Metashadow feats should at least be 2/day to compensate, imho.


As for versatility, I agree that it is tempting to spread out your known mysteries. There are quite a few unique mysteries available. The only way to get to try them all is retraining. Unlike the sorcerer or other spontaneous casters, the shadowcaster can't swap out mysteries as they increase in level (As far as I know). This leaves the PHB2 rules or things like Psychic Reformation as the only means of swapping out mysteries known.

There is another tactic: though not exactly "retraining" per se, you can start as another arcane class and use Creeping Darkness to slowly slip into Shadow Magic. Since you're effectively gaining two levels at a time you have a bit more leeway to plan ahead while picking Mysteries and feats, relying on your dwindling arcane powers to cover for you. This is best done before level 7.


I'll do a bit of research, but I don't think they could qualify for things like Arcane Disciple. If they could...Then they may technically be able to use those spells as mysteries, following the limits of their casting table normally. As I said...I'll read up and see if I can find anything.

I'm not sure they can apply for anything that specifies arcane or divine sadly.

WinWin
2010-11-11, 02:06 AM
The Mother Cyst feat from Libris Mortis : The book of Bad Latin...

Prerequisites just include caster level. Arcane or Divine not specified.

Mother Cyst spells gained and are cast just as any other spell the character casts (abridged, refer to actual text).

Technically they would be added to mysteries known...Not a bad feat choice as it technically pays for itself.

edit: Improved Onieromancy from HoH also add spells known, specifically, it expands your spells known regardless of the type of caster the character is. A heftier investment (3 feats), but a thematic choice.

edit 2: Exalted Arcanist and Troubador of Stars both grant Sanctified spells to spells known, without mandating they are added to a specific list. Unfortunately they both require spontaneous arcane to qualify. They both simply advance caster level though. Outside of TO, the level by which the sanctified spells are added to the list makes this option impractical.

Sandshaper is easier to qualify for, simply requiring an arcane CL...Perhaps a decent option for a Noctumancer/MT. Again their is no mandate as to which list the spells are added to. Dipping the class is inelegant though, and it will otherwise stunt Mystery progression if it is advanced.

note: I got a bit over exited with the whole added to spells known thing. Any spells added will not be from a Path, therefore they will not grant bonus feats. By a strict wording of Mystery progression, they will not aid in aquiring higher level mysteries either.

On the plus side, any added 'known' spells will progress as mysteries and could therefore become spellike and supernatural, depending on which part of the shadow magic chapter in TOM is read. They will each be able to be used a number of times per day accoring to the character's Shadowcaster level. Potentially a great way to increase the endurance of the Shadowcaster in early levels.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-11, 02:58 AM
Too bad Metashadow feats suck...

...Why? They do the same thing without taking up a higher slot. Is it because of the limited number of uses? Because I honestly think its better to maximize a high level damage spell once then, say, fireball four times. You get more out of one use and it doesn't eat your high level slots.

WinWin
2010-11-11, 03:35 AM
The attitude about metashadow feats is based on comparison to other spellcasting classes I believe.

It does not help that the respective feats provide only one use per day, whereas an item such as a metashadow (metamagic) rod provides 3/day.

In compasiron they suck. From the perspective of a shadowcaster they are useful.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-11, 04:08 PM
More weird questions on the subject of Shadowcasters; if I use Favored Mystery and turn a spell into a spell like or sl into a Supernatural, does that mean taking that mystery again for more slots nets me the extra in the favored form?

Like if I took steel shadow, then made it a SL at level 1, then took it again, would I have three uses or four?

Psyren
2010-11-11, 04:21 PM
In compasiron they suck. From the perspective of a shadowcaster they are useful.

Well that's true in a sense; if you have no other options then indeed, the options you are left with do not suck, as you have nothing else to compare them to.

But honestly, I can think of quite a few feats that take precedence over Metashadow feats, especially if the rods are available. And if you're using Ari's fix (and you should!) you only get the bonus feats if you finish paths. For most shadowcasters, using the fix means better mysteries but less feats.


More weird questions on the subject of Shadowcasters; if I use Favored Mystery and turn a spell into a spell like or sl into a Supernatural, does that mean taking that mystery again for more slots nets me the extra in the favored form?

Like if I took steel shadow, then made it a SL at level 1, then took it again, would I have three uses or four?

I don't see why the form of a mystery should impact how many uses you get for taking it multiple times. Am I missing something? It sounds fine to me.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-11, 06:40 PM
I don't see why the form of a mystery should impact how many uses you get for taking it multiple times. Am I missing something? It sounds fine to me.

I mean, when you retake it do you retake it in the new form or in the old one? So lets say I made Shadow Time into a SL. If I took it again would it be taken as a mystery or a SL?

Flickerdart
2010-11-11, 08:20 PM
More weird questions on the subject of Shadowcasters; if I use Favored Mystery and turn a spell into a spell like or sl into a Supernatural, does that mean taking that mystery again for more slots nets me the extra in the favored form?

Like if I took steel shadow, then made it a SL at level 1, then took it again, would I have three uses or four?
You would get four uses, and six when it becomes supernatural.

Tvtyrant
2010-11-11, 08:23 PM
You would get four uses, and six when it becomes supernatural.

This makes me very, very happy. Essentially I can use two of my mysteries and two feats to get 6 level 9 mysteries. Now I need to find ones that are more general (like Shades, that would be awesome).

WinWin
2010-11-11, 10:34 PM
This makes me very, very happy. Essentially I can use two of my mysteries and two feats to get 6 level 9 mysteries. Now I need to find ones that are more general (like Shades, that would be awesome).

Actually...If you had taken favoured mystery twice and Made Shadow time a supernatural ability, you would be able to use it 5 times.

You can use your supernatural mysteries 3 times a day. If a mystery benefiting from the favoured mystery feat becomes supernatural, you gain an additional use per day. So it would be 3 (supernatural mystery) + 2 (2 favoured mystery feats).

If you had taken Shadow Time twice, the number of uses per day would be 8.

(I think)

Tvtyrant
2010-11-11, 10:41 PM
Actually...If you had taken favoured mystery twice and Made Shadow time a supernatural ability, you would be able to use it 5 times.

You can use your supernatural mysteries 3 times a day. If a mystery benefiting from the favoured mystery feat becomes supernatural, you gain an additional use per day. So it would be 3 (supernatural mystery) + 2 (2 favoured mystery feats).

If you had taken Shadow Time twice, the number of uses per day would be 8.

(I think)

I thought and have been trying to get a consensus on this, that if you used the feat twice it would become supernatural (3 uses) and if you took it again it would get 6 (2x3). Not sure where your getting your numbers from.

WinWin
2010-11-11, 10:53 PM
The favoured mystery feat states that if it is taken with a supernatural mystery (or a mystery that later becomes supernatural), you gain an additional use of that mystery per day.

So...You have taken favoured mystery twice. 2 extra uses.

Supernatural mysteries are used 3 times per day.

5 uses base. 8 uses if the mystery is 'known' twice.