Monk why does this suck?

[WitchSlayer]

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[DragonOfUndeath]

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[dsmiles]

Quick question Is touch of golden ice a good feat for a monk? The non-scaling dc is a problem but at low levels it can be pretty brutal.

Not particularly. Seeing as how it's an exalted feat, you have to follow all the rules for an exalted character. Which aren't that great when you're only doing it for one feat. If you're going for an entire character concept + feat chain + PrC, the rules aren't so bad, but Touch of Golden Ice is still a waste, IMO.

[awa]

its good for vow of poverty monks because they quickly find that their are few even a little bit useful exalted feats. but despite the fluff synergy and initial gut reaction vow of poverty monks are even worse than normal monks

[Glimbur]

its good for vow of poverty monks because they quickly find that their are few even a little bit useful exalted feats. but despite the fluff synergy and initial gut reaction vow of poverty monks are even worse than normal monks

I'm running a game right now with a Vow of Poverty monk, and my assessment is that he's not useless. They're level 7 or 8 right now, and they have a swift hunter, a crusader, a cleric, an artificer, a dread necro, and the monk. The monk contributes damage in combat and has sense motive. I can't argue that he is more useful than, say, a warblade would be but he's not entirely useless. Also, we're bad at giving out treasure so we tend to just get the PC's back to WBL in a lump sum. And we have discarded XP in favor of leveling by Fiat. Perhaps we should throw the artificer extra XP... or throw out spending XP on crafting.

[Bayar]

I'm running a game right now with a Vow of Poverty monk, and my assessment is that he's not useless. They're level 7 or 8 right now, and they have a swift hunter, a crusader, a cleric, an artificer, a dread necro, and the monk. The monk contributes damage in combat and has sense motive. I can't argue that he is more useful than, say, a warblade would be but he's not entirely useless. Also, we're bad at giving out treasure so we tend to just get the PC's back to WBL in a lump sum. And we have discarded XP in favor of leveling by Fiat. Perhaps we should throw the artificer extra XP... or throw out spending XP on crafting.

Throw out spending XP on crafting. if you are leveling by fiat, then you basically cripple one of the artificier's abilities (convering XP and money into magic items). Crafting XP costs are stupid anyway.

[Glimbur]

I should probably also mention that the monk is a Chaos Monk, which seems better than regular monk. Also, Flailing Strike (flurry of blows) is a standard action he can use on a charge, via house rules. So that helps.

Yeah, we'll dump XP costs on crafting through handwavium of the "Craft reserve."

[Flickerdart]

I'm running a game right now with a Vow of Poverty monk, and my assessment is that he's not useless. They're level 7 or 8 right now, and they have a swift hunter, a crusader, a cleric, an artificer, a dread necro, and the monk. The monk contributes damage in combat and has sense motive. I can't argue that he is more useful than, say, a warblade would be but he's not entirely useless. Also, we're bad at giving out treasure so we tend to just get the PC's back to WBL in a lump sum. And we have discarded XP in favor of leveling by Fiat. Perhaps we should throw the artificer extra XP... or throw out spending XP on crafting.
In a couple of levels things are going to start flying, and then the poor Monk won't be able to do anything about it.

[Togo]

In a couple of levels things are going to start flying, and then the poor Monk won't be able to do anything about it.

Ready an action to jump into the path of the flyer when it makes a pass. Then use your AOO to trip the flyer. Or grapple it.

The game is full of flyers, but most of them need to close to do anything useful. And there's good design reasons for that.

Monks are't great, although they make better use of very high stats than most character classes (who generally only get optimal benefit from one or two high stats). But I don't think they as bad as people seem to think. There are some decent prestige classes out there for them, and they are tremendous fun.

Yes, if your games all devolve into rocket tag, then you want a character class with good rockets. A monk isn't that class. But then if your games all devolve into rocket tag, then maybe you need a DM who varies the pace a bit?

[Thurbane]

In a couple of levels things are going to start flying, and then the poor Monk won't be able to do anything about it.
To be fair, basically no class besides casters (and pseudo casters) gets flight as a class ability. They generally rely on items, spells cast by allies, or a racial ability...although yes, it becomes much more difficult with VoP in the mix.

[Lans]

Some classes get to shoot it down, but that requires focus in ranged for most of those classes.

[olentu]

Ready an action to jump into the path of the flyer when it makes a pass. Then use your AOO to trip the flyer. Or grapple it.

The game is full of flyers, but most of them need to close to do anything useful. And there's good design reasons for that.

Monks are't great, although they make better use of very high stats than most character classes (who generally only get optimal benefit from one or two high stats). But I don't think they as bad as people seem to think. There are some decent prestige classes out there for them, and they are tremendous fun.

Yes, if your games all devolve into rocket tag, then you want a character class with good rockets. A monk isn't that class. But then if your games all devolve into rocket tag, then maybe you need a DM who varies the pace a bit?

Or they could just wait for you to finish your move while smacking you in the face.

[Bayar]

Ready an action to jump into the path of the flyer when it makes a pass. Then use your AOO to trip the flyer. Or grapple it.

The game is full of flyers, but most of them need to close to do anything useful. And there's good design reasons for that.

Monks are't great, although they make better use of very high stats than most character classes (who generally only get optimal benefit from one or two high stats). But I don't think they as bad as people seem to think. There are some decent prestige classes out there for them, and they are tremendous fun.

Yes, if your games all devolve into rocket tag, then you want a character class with good rockets. A monk isn't that class. But then if your games all devolve into rocket tag, then maybe you need a DM who varies the pace a bit?

1. They NEED very high stats to be effective.

2. Every class ever will get optimal benefit from more very high stats. Especially those that focus on one or two stats. This is in no way something that strictly applies to monks.

[ScionoftheVoid]

1. They NEED very high stats to be effective.

2. Every class ever will get optimal benefit from more very high stats. Especially those that focus on one or two stats. This is in no way something that strictly applies to monks.

I don't contest 1 at all, but 2 is slightly inaccurate.

Monks do gain more benefit from all high stats than most classes because they can use most or all stats at the same time. A Druid has no need for Int or Cha, because skills can be replicated by racial bonuses from Wildshape forms or ignored completely with little trouble. Nor do they need or want Str and Dex, since they're taken care of by Wildshape too. They only get real benefit from high Con and Wis. Clerics might use Cha a bit more but that's still about it. Most melee classes want high Str, Con and Wis for Will saves if they can afford it. Int above 13 (for the Combat Expertise->Improved Trip, etc. line) does nothing for them, and Cha in general doesn't synergise even with their class skills. Rogues and Bards might want high Cha, Dex and Con but Int isn't worth much since their base skill points are so far ahead of most anyway and Wis is less useful since they try to go undetectable and untargettable by things that would require it and the Rogue gets Slippery Mind and the Bard good Will progression. Wizards and Sorcerers want Con and Int or Cha (as appropriate), maybe Dex but it's not necessary. Wizards bypass Str, Cha and Wis with spells and/or good Will saves. Sorcs do much the same but might want Int for enough skill points to qualify for prestige classes and still have the basics covered. Monks want high stats in everything except maybe Int and Cha, and they have uses for them in skillmonkey-ness and Diplomacy and Disguise as class skills, respectively. The only other class that's at the same level is the Paladin, who wants high stats in all but Int, though they have less use for it if they get it high.

At least, that's what I've always understood, YMMV.

[Esser-Z]

Ready an action to jump into the path of the flyer when it makes a pass. Then use your AOO to trip the flyer. Or grapple it.

The game is full of flyers, but most of them need to close to do anything useful. And there's good design reasons for that.

Monks are't great, although they make better use of very high stats than most character classes (who generally only get optimal benefit from one or two high stats). But I don't think they as bad as people seem to think. There are some decent prestige classes out there for them, and they are tremendous fun.

Yes, if your games all devolve into rocket tag, then you want a character class with good rockets. A monk isn't that class. But then if your games all devolve into rocket tag, then maybe you need a DM who varies the pace a bit?

Or they would be, if they could actually do what they're supposed to do.

Meanwhile, the ARCHETYPE is certainly lots of fun. Mmmm Fistsage.

[Curmudgeon]

Ready an action to jump into the path of the flyer when it makes a pass. Then use your AOO to trip the flyer. Or grapple it.
I would expect most fliers who'd get close enough for this to work would have Improved Flyby Attack, which means if they attack you when you jump into their path they won't provoke an AoO when they move away. So congrats: you've found a way to guarantee that you get attacked. :smallamused:

[Flickerdart]

Ready an action to jump into the path of the flyer when it makes a pass. Then use your AOO to trip the flyer. Or grapple it.
This tactic is defeated by Tumble in addition to all the other grapple counters, and requires the flyer to be retarded and your Jump skill to be cheesed out (look at the chart, high jumps have pretty crazy DCs) with skill points that you don't have because your INT is one of your only two dump stats.

[Cogidubnus]

I built a pretty good monk a while back. At level 6 he had an AC of...30 at level 6. He was using the VoP fix, but he also had a good to-hit and every hit forced a DC 18 fort save or be blinded. Which made him excellent when paired with an all-out attacker.

[Susano-wo]

INT might be the dump stat, but it just means you used 1 point a level to pump jump:smallconfused:, which is STR based, which you should have some number in:smallwink:

I don't think jump into the path is a catch all, but situationally, I can defnitely see hte use, especially against critters that are not larger than large. by 6th lvl, you have a +21(9ranks,2str,2tumble,+8from base spd)jump, so you are garunteed 5ft...wait, you don't have a running start >.<. Well, I guess you need to invest in something that allows you to be treated as such (I htin kthere's some magic boots in the MIC that do so, right? maybe not your highest priority, but a good idea if you want to use that strategy.

Regarding the AoO, I am guessing improved flyby eliminates all that (rather than just against the target, like rideby attack and I assume normal flyby), so if it does have it, you need to ready the action to make a jumping attack. Don't know if its raw, but it certainly seems reasonable, though perhaps with a penalty.

Now the tripping or grappling you might find quite a bit harder, unless you are a PF monk.. >.>

[Flickerdart]

RAW you can only ready a move or standard action - no jumping attacks, no charges, no full attacks.

As for putting ranks in Jump...yeah, it only costs you one point, but now you only have three. Monk actually has a decent skill list, so every point in Jump is a point out of something useful like Tumble or Spot.

[Susano-wo]

I am figuring that the jump is part of the attack. But again, its not very RAW, since you normally have to end movement and then attack...still, I'd allow it. Its creative, and epic, and allows the monk to monk some **** up :smallwink:...how else would you deal with a flying monster that can attack you from outside of your reach? (well, aside from waiting and attacking the limbs, which is also not RAW :smallfrown:)

[Arctura42]

Don't know if any of this has been mentioned, but one of my players and I found this neat series of tricks:

1) Gain access to DSP third party source via:
http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/home

2) Replace monk class with Enlightened Monk found in that site. This allows for several new bonus feats you can take, including a series of Mind Blade feats (also outlined in the site) or Improved Natural attack, which, while you have psionic focus, is effectively doubled due to one class feature there.

3) Get Monastic Blade and Enlightened Warrior (both Mind Blade feats) - one makes melee attack and damage rolls go off WIS instead of STR, and the other adds your unarmed strike to your mind blade damage.

Only problem is that Mind Blade progression is extremely feat intensive. Currently working on a build utilizing only those Mind Blade feats, and its taking me 40+ feats. For Monastic Blade and Enlightened Warrior, you need to spend 5 feats to make it work, which is a lot, considering everything that's out there.

However, its not bad for what it gives you. For one thing, now your AC, attack, and damage are all based off WIS, as well as your stunning fist DC, and whatever other class features you may have. Second, you can use a weapon now, and you don't lose your unarmed damage - and you can even give it qualities like vorpal, or get more feats that give you a shield (which you can make animated, so thereby you aren't wielding it . . . right?), and a deflection bonus to AC.

But again, it is rather feat intensive. So I suppose this isn't much of a solution, but rather just something you can do to pass the time. Far better to take 2 levels in monk for two of those feats, then finish up with Ascetic Warrior (Psychic Warrior and Monk levels stack for unarmed damage and something else), and then take 18 Psychic Warrior Levels. But then its not quite monk.

Monk is strange. Its a great class to dip in, but its abilities don't rival those of other classes, nor do they even give it a definitive roll. Without building it just right, it suffers horribly from MAD, and can't make use of its unique abilities. Someone needs to build a "Real Monk" class that'll level the playing field. Something like this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160730 but for monks. Anyway, my 2 cents - which are basically the same as everyone else's anyway.

[Esser-Z]

Someone needs to build a "Real Monk" class that'll level the playing field.
They did. It's called Unarmed Variant Swordsage.


"Jump onto the swooping flyer" is something I have actually pulled off! As... a swordsage, with access to Tiger Claw's lovely jump boosting. :smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

I am figuring that the jump is part of the attack. But again, its not very RAW, since you normally have to end movement and then attack...
No, a jump isn't part of an attack. But there is a simple RAW approach to this: Spring Attack, which is designed precisely to allow splitting movement around an attack. How you go about that movement (Jump check or whatnot) is entirely up to you.

[Flickerdart]

No, a jump isn't part of an attack. But there is a simple RAW approach to this: Spring Attack, which is designed precisely to allow splitting movement around an attack. How you go about that movement (Jump check or whatnot) is entirely up to you.
Except that still doesn't help because you can't ready both a move and a standard action.

[Esser-Z]

Except that still doesn't help because you can't ready both a move and a standard action.
You don't have to. Ready the jump. Now, you jump. Oh hey, it's moving in my threatened squares. I get an AoO!

[Eldariel]

Boots of Battle Charger enable you to, though. Or just limiting yourself to a Standard Action; e.g. with Slow :smallbiggrin:

[tyckspoon]

You don't have to. Ready the jump. Now, you jump. Oh hey, it's moving in my threatened squares. I get an AoO!

Except you just interrupted its action, and your action has to finish entirely before its own action resumes.. so what you actually do is jump up, move through *its* threatened spaces, eat an AoO, and land without having achieved anything. It isn't actually moving at all, game-wise, while you are executing your readied action.

[Esser-Z]

Stupid RAW.

Any good DM would just let you do it, because it's awesome!

[Eldariel]

Stupid RAW.

Any good DM would just let you do it, because it's awesome!

Movement in general is totally ****ed up in RAW. Stuff like Spring Attack should not require a friggin' feat. So you move before AND after your action instead of only every 6 seconds? Oh woe, what a show of skill!

[Susano-wo]

No, a jump isn't part of an attack. But there is a simple RAW approach to this: Spring Attack, which is designed precisely to allow splitting movement around an attack. How you go about that movement (Jump check or whatnot) is entirely up to you.

I know its not RAW, I'm saying I would allow it. Though as Flickerdart pointed out, you can't use Spring Attack that way either, since you have to ready only a standard action.

So then we are back to the needing the dragon to provoke AoO...which as someone else pointed out is not RAW either, since you would do the whole jump...I guess if you timed it just right you would be in midair [you do pause in midair if you use up your move speed before you use up the jump distance, don't you?]...

BUt in other words, this a handy dandy time to just give the GM the ol' Pleeeease (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_91YOfQJ6LgY/Swt0DdZhinI/AAAAAAAAAYg/IGKw8_Jkk7s/s1600/lolcat-make-deal.jpg)

[Psyren]

See, this is why I like Psywars. And Tashalatora. :smallamused:

Just call PP "ki" and you're done.

[Optimator]

Movement in general is totally ****ed up in RAW. Stuff like Spring Attack should not require a friggin' feat. So you move before AND after your action instead of only every 6 seconds? Oh woe, what a show of skill!

Well, for what it's worth the Spring Attack feat also prevents AoOs (partially).