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zyborg
2010-11-06, 07:07 PM
I've heard a few people mentioning how awesome swordsages are and how unarmed Swordsages replace monks. But... what exactly is a Swordsage? Is there anywhere online to read about this class? I googled it but couldn't find solid info on it, only more people talking about how to use/make them.

Vaynor
2010-11-06, 07:10 PM
The swordsage is in the Tome of Battle. You can't read about it online for free, you'll have to buy the book. Basically, it's a martial class that has x/encounter "maneuvers" which act similarly to spells but are made for melee classes, a lot of them are supernatural in origin, however. They're widely considered a better option for melee characters when compared to core melee classes.

The swordsage is the rogue-type one, along with the warblade (fighter) and crusader (paladin).

AslanCross
2010-11-06, 07:14 PM
The Swordsage is more of a ninja or rogue by default, as it has a lot of skill points and sneakiness. Compared to the Warblade and crusader, however, it gets far more maneuvers, so it has a lot more situational tricks.

One of the options that the Tome of Battle gives is that they can be given the Monk's Unarmed Strike progression. That plus the maneuvers they can choose from can give a character a very versatile suite of combat options.

Eldan
2010-11-06, 07:14 PM
It's a class from Tome of Battle, which, like all classes in that book, gets maneuvers.

Maneuvers are martial class abilities that are activated a little like spells, but with melee attacks instead of hand gestures. They allow melee classes to hae a little bit more tactical choice than tripping, charging and "I hit again."

The swordsage has more skills than the other classes from that book, and wisdom to AC.

dgnslyr
2010-11-06, 07:17 PM
It's a class in the Tome of Battle, which is either made of win or The Most Hated Book, depending on who you ask, though most people, myself inclusive. believe the former.

The main schtick in the Tome of Battle (ToB) is maneuvers, which work a lot like spells, except for melee characters. There are nine levels, just like spells, and each of the three base classes has its own table for maneuvers known/readied. Unlike spells, non-Martial Adepts (ex. everything not in the ToB) is gives half an IL (initiator level), and maneuvers can be refreshed mid-combat.

There are nine schools of maneuvers, with each of the three base classes, Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader, limited to a few schools. Warblade is available here, (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) on the WotC site, along with all the maneuvers.

Swordsages get the most maneuvers known and readied, as well as the most schools available. However, they have the slowest refresh time, one standard action per maneuver, and medium BAB, though BAB isn't a huge deal. There's a variant that gives them Unarmed Strike progression like a monk at the expense of their armor proficiency.

Edit: Swordsage'd

Murdim
2010-11-06, 07:32 PM
I've heard a few people mentioning how awesome swordsages are and how unarmed Swordsages replace monks. But... what exactly is a Swordsage? Is there anywhere online to read about this class? I googled it but couldn't find solid info on it, only more people talking about how to use/make them.
Along with the Warblade and the Crusader, the Swordsage is one of the three martial adept base classes that are found in the Tome of Battle sourcebook. They can use maneuvers from the Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, Stone Dragon and Tiger Claw disciplines.

The bad news is, you won't be able to find the exact workings of the Swordsage class without buying the book.

The good news is, you will be able to get a quick but functional description of the way martial adepts work, the description of the Warblade class, and even the full disclosure of every maneuver in the game, since all those things are freely available on WotC's official site.

Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords - Introduction (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=1)
The Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2)
Maneuver cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a)

Compared to the Warblade, the Swordsage has a different, larger set of disciplines, d8 HD, medium BAB, poor Fort save, good Ref and Will saves, more maneuvers known and readied, more stances known, a different recovery method, and class features that are mostly focused on defense (including Wis to AC).

Yuki Akuma
2010-11-06, 07:33 PM
The Swordsage even has two Disciplines (schools) of maneuvers that have unarmed strikes as a discipline weapon - Tiger Claw and Setting Sun. Setting Sun is basically judo, while Tiger Claw is quick, brutal combat, focusing on leaping and attacking with two weapons.

Of course, he can use any weapon with any maneuver.

Mando Knight
2010-11-06, 07:40 PM
Edit: Swordsage'd

As one can see, they also replace ninjas. :smalltongue:

AslanCross
2010-11-06, 07:41 PM
The Swordsage even has two Disciplines (schools) of maneuvers that have unarmed strikes as a discipline weapon - Tiger Claw and Setting Sun. Setting Sun is basically judo, while Tiger Claw is quick, brutal combat, focusing on leaping and attacking with two weapons.

Of course, he can use any weapon with any maneuver.

Stone Dragon and Shadow Hand also have Unarmed Strike as favored weapons.

FMArthur
2010-11-06, 07:50 PM
It needs to be said that the only way that maneuvers are like spells is the level-tiering and the way you organize them. Don't want you to go on thinking that we've deluded ourselves that "melee with spells" is the solution to melee being underpowered compared to spellcasting. :smallwink:

Maneuvers are, first of all, infinite-use daily. You ready a certain number of the maneuvers that you know (takes 5 minutes of exercise) and can expend them like spells, and then can ready more of them (there are also mechanisms to recover maneuvers as you fight).

Most maneuvers are just fighting moves to hit people with a weapon in special ways, to move around the battlefield, and generally replicate mundane tactical maneuvers more than anything supernatural. They are also divided much more evenly into Standard Action usage, Swift Action usage (A Swift Action is a free action of which you only get one per round), and Immediate Action usage (you spend your Swift Action to use these during others' turns in combat). There are also Stances, which are always-on maneuvers that passively grant you some benefit.

Not that there aren't some supernatural abilities - Swordsages have the most options for these, and they represent things like ki and auras and focus-energy that so many works of fiction have. They are almost an insignificant minority of maneuvers - you can play any ToB class, ignore every supernatural maneuver, and still have a ton of worthwhile maneuvers choose from to customize your warrior into something unique.

zyborg
2010-11-06, 07:56 PM
That is awesome. I think I might have to get the Tome of Battle, once I get more deeply-involved in D&D.

Greenish
2010-11-06, 08:01 PM
Swordsages get the most maneuvers known and readied, as well as the most schools available. However, they have the slowest refresh time, one standard action per maneuverFull round, I seem to recall.

dgnslyr
2010-11-06, 08:18 PM
Full round, I seem to recall.

By default, swordsages need a standard action to refresh just ONE maneuver, to compensate for their crazy number of maneuvers known/readied. However, with Adaptive Style, any Martial Adept can refresh all of his maneuvers with a full-round action. This feat is really only useful for swordsages, though, because Warblades need just a swift action, and crusaders have their randomization thingy, with maneuvers known/granted/withheld.

Greenish
2010-11-06, 08:23 PM
By default, swordsages need a standard action to refresh just ONE maneuver, to compensate for their crazy number of maneuvers known/readied. However, with Adaptive Style, any Martial Adept can refresh all of his maneuvers with a full-round action. This feat is really only useful for swordsages, though, because Warblades need just a swift action, and crusaders have their randomization thingy, with maneuvers known/granted/withheld.First, swordsages need a full round to recover one maneuver without the feat.

Second, Adaptive Style allows one to change one's readied maneuvers in combat, which does have applications for all martial adepts.

Third, warblades require a swift action and a standard action or an attack.

Yuki Akuma
2010-11-06, 09:11 PM
Stone Dragon and Shadow Hand also have Unarmed Strike as favored weapons.

Oh! So they do.

Well, that's four of six disciplines Swordsages can learn.

zyborg
2010-11-08, 03:50 PM
Extremely dumb question, but how hard is it to make a Swordsage without owning Tome of Battle?

JaronK
2010-11-08, 04:03 PM
Basically, since you wouldn't have the maneuvers to work with, impossible.

Tome of Battle was an absolutely amazing book. It pretty much replaced all other melees before it, using just three classes that are fun, balanced, and versatile. The Swordsage is an excellent Monk, Assassin, or Ninja (it's not really a Rogue due to the more limited skill list and lack of trapfinding). The Crusader is a Knight or Paladin, and can even replace battle Clerics. The Warblade is a Fighter or Barbarian or Samurai. And they do it well. It's rather impressive. It brings them all up to the same power level, not as strong as Wizards and Druids (that would be broken) but strong enough to do well in lots of situations. Plus, there's very little that's actually broken in the book (Aptitude weapons are very abusable when combined with certain feats, and there's a spell from another book that can be combined with one Crusader stance for infinite damage, but that's it).

JaronK

zyborg
2010-11-08, 04:21 PM
The book sounds cool, but it seems too expensive for me to get anytime soon. Luckily (or unluckily), I probably won't need it anytime soon anyways, so... it doesn't really matter right now. But I'll make getting it my first D&D priority.